Talk:Israel

Undiscussed change

@Baking Soda: please note that until this edit the long-standing stable version said "disputed". There was no discussion that lead to the change, only a bold edit that has been reverted since. Per WP:BRD now is the time to discuss and try to gain a consensus for this change, rather than edit war over it. “WarKosign” 18:25, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Use of "disputed" vs "internationally unrecognized" for Jerusalem

Should "disputed" or "internationally unrecognized" be used for Jerusalem in the infobox/throughout article? Baking Soda (talk) 18:40, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Involved editors @Makeandtoss, Mortadella42, Sean.hoyland, Andreas11213, Sepsis II, WarKosign, and Ethanlu121:.

Survey & discussion

• Internationally unrecognized is the more honest descriptor. Disputed makes it sound like there isn't a strong international consensus. This same problem also arose for "occupied" vs "disputed" territory, while Israel uses disputed, the international community uses occupied, so wikipedia, in the interest of NPOV, uses occupied. Sepsis II (talk) 19:46, 15 May 2016 (UTC) Editor permanently topic banned more than two months after making these comments per WP:AE.
• Disputed per WP:NPOV and WP:COMMONNAME. As Positions on Jerusalem states, "There is significant disagreement in the international community on the legal and diplomatic status of Jerusalem", so presenting only one of the positions as the international consensus is very POV and misleading. Disputed is the term often used in media, (example) or scholar works (example). A google search for "Jerusalem unrecognized" fails to yield relevant results in the first page, while searching for "Jerusalem disputed" yields a page full of relevant results. “WarKosign” 20:09, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Considering the international consensus in regards to the non-recognition of Jerusalem as a capital of Israel, that opening line at "Positions on Jerusalem" is problematic. But you claim there are other positions, can you list these countries and organizations which recognize the capital of Israel as being Jerusalem? If there is a dispute we should be able to know who the disputing parties are.

As I understand it, those who say there is an international dispute are similar to those politicians saying that scientists are still disputing climate change and evolution. Sepsis II (talk) 20:43, 15 May 2016 (UTC) Editor permanently topic banned more than two months after making these comments per WP:AE.

Wikipedia is built on sources, and by far more sources call Jerusalem disputed. You are questioning the sources and asking me to engage in original research. This is unusable, but I can speculate on why the sources prefer the term disputed. "internationally unrecognized" means "not recognized by (almost) everybody in the world", which is simply incorrect. Even if most or all of the governments do not recognize it officially (at least two contries do recognize it), most of them recognize it de-facto (see CIA fact book for example) and in any unofficial context such as travel or weather Jerusalem is undoubtedly in Israel. Many international organizations such as this also clearly accept that Jerusalem is in Israel. While undoubtedly there is *dispute* whether Jerusalem (especially its east half) should be considered to be in Israel, it is *not* recognized internationally that it is not in Israel, quite the opposite. “WarKosign” 08:07, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Endtime Ministries is not a reliable source for something as serious as diplomatic recognition, I suggest you present better sources there. Unofficial contexts aren't relevant here, we're talking about formal recognition by governments. So far as I know there is general consensus that Jerusalem is controlled by Israel, but that isn't the same as saying it is recognised internationally as being in Israel. Putting "disputed" there is a fudge that obscures the issue. —  Cliftonian (talk)  13:28, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

The question at hand has nothing to do with the location of Jerusalem in relation to geopolitics, the question at hand is about the recognition of capital hood, please don't try to confuse the two. Also random websites are not a source for such contentious matters. Sepsis II (talk) 15:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC) Editor permanently topic banned more than two months after making these comments per WP:AE.

• Internationally unrecognized, per WP:NPOV - no country officially recognises Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem or the designation of Jerusalem as capital except Israel itself. Not one. I see no reason to use "disputed" here when the more specific "internationally unrecognized" is true. —  Cliftonian (talk)  21:04, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

• El Salvador?? As for the topic, I think Disputed is factual and NPOV. IU is a bit pointy and we should use the term most likely to avoid headaches. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 13:36, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

El Salvador? They were an exception...a decade ago before they moved their embassy to Herzliya. Even if it was two vs the rest of the world, it still wouldn't be any more of a dispute than say the illegality of the Israeli settlements. Sepsis II (talk) 00:13, 17 May 2016 (UTC) Editor permanently topic banned more than two months after making these comments per WP:AE.

• Internationally unrecognized – per WP:NPOV, no country at the time of writing recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, United States included. Disputed in this context may imply otherwise. It should be noted that ownership of the land is disputed (use of disputed in a different context, footnote suggested to elucidate for that case). Baking Soda (talk) 15:55, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
• Internationally unrecognized This RFC was mandated by ARBCOM to settle some Jerusalem-related issues and it was a rather comprehensive and formal affair. The consensus that emerged described the situation as unrecognised, not disputed. --Dailycare (talk) 13:06, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
• Disputed - One side of the argument claims the Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, while the other claims that it is not, so, yes, it is disputed. The term Internationally unrecognized seems to be rather biased, as it implies that the capital of Israel is Jerusalem, and that the other side of the argument fails to recognise it. However, who is to say which side is right or wrong? The answer is: no one. Whether or not Israel's capital is Jerusalem is being disputed, but one cannot prove which side has validity. Therefore, the term Internationally unrecognised, is biased, as it implies that one argument has more validity than another. Ethanlu121 (talk) 03:18, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
• Disputed is the version which was in use here and on all other articles. It is also a more correct description of the facts, since "Jerusalem" includes both East and West and the status of West Jerusalem is hardly disputed internationally. Debresser (talk) 13:34, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
• Internationally unrecognized, per User:Cliftonian. Nishidani (talk) 17:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
• Internationally unrecognized per the above, and I dont honestly see why this is even challenged. Does anybody think internationally unrecognized is inaccurate? Or is obfuscation the goal here? nableezy - 17:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
• Internationally unrecognized - Which is the correct term and NPOV.--TMCk (talk) 17:45, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
• Internationally unrecognized - both are accurate, but this provides a further level of precision with just one extra word. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Israel

The pronunciation מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל in Modern Hebrew is [mediˈnat isʁaˈʔel], not [mediˈnat jisʁaˈʔel]. So no "j" at the beginning of Israel. The pronunciation sample is also pretty bad, with the same mistake. This sample on forvo is a good example of a native speakers pronunciation: http://forvo.com/word/מדינת_ישראל/ You could also check any speech of Benjamin Netanyahu in Hebrew for example. Can someone fix this? I have less than 500 edits so I can't edit this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamuelMaglor (talk • contribs) 09:24, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

@SamuelMaglor: Do you have sources that support it ? I do not see sources that support current pronunciation either, though. “WarKosign” 09:31, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

@WarKosign: Don't really know what counts as a proper source for a pronunciation of a word/sentence, the woman in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2nWwQW30Aw from an Israeli news report says Medinat Israel in the beginning, and the sample I linked before (http://forvo.com/word/מדינת_ישראל/) was made by a native Hebrew speaker (http://forvo.com/user/achmo/) who has contributed with a nearly 2000 pronunciations of Modern Hebrew words on Forvo.

Youtube is a perfectly good source for the fact that this woman pronounced the words this way during that interview. Even if you had lots of videos demonstrating same pronunciation, it would be original research determining that it is indeed the correct pronunciation. Forvo is crowd sourced, and per WP:UGC it's unacceptable as a source.

Ideally some linguistic article should describe evolution of hebrew pronunciation and use "Israel" as an example. If there are no sources either way I would support the change, but it's far from ideal. “WarKosign” 10:16, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

In general, Israelis have various problems with pronouncing their language. One is the general omission of the "hey" at the beginning of words, as though it read "ey". Another, similar, problem is the occasional omission of the "ji" as though it read "i", like in the example of Yisrael. I am not sure it counts as a correct pronunciation, though. Debresser (talk) 15:39, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

@Debresser: I'm aware that there are differences between colloquial and formal Hebrew such as omitting the h of ה and the glottal stop of א and ע, but even in formal settings such as in the Knesset, in Independence Day ceremonies, I've yet to hear any Israeli pronounce ישראל as "Jisrael", only "Isra'el". I would love to see an example of that.

You're confusing several unrelated things. There is no "j" in any form of the Hebrew language, so even if there are problems with language pronunciation (and as far as I'm aware of, there is none related to "i"), "ji" cannot be the correct way for pronunciation for any Hebrew words which aren't borrowed from other languages (which "Israel" obviously isn't). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.72.84.214 (talk) 14:51, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

There is a "j" in Hebrew, namely when the "yud" is the beginning of a word or syllable. That why it is called a "yud" and not an "ud"! :) Debresser (talk) 15:28, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Israel#Legal system

That paragraph says that "A committee of Knesset members, Supreme Court justices, and Israeli Bar members carries out the election of judges". The source cited there states that "Judges are appointed by the president, upon recommendation of a nominations committee comprised of Supreme Court judges, members of the bar, and public figures". Those public figures are two Knesst members (by tradition, one of them is from the the opposition), and two ministers (the justice minister and another minister). The justice minister is also the chairman.

I suggest the text "The election of judges is carried out by a committee of two Knesset members, three Supreme Court justices, two Israeli Bar members and two ministers (one of which, Israel's justice minister, is the committee's chairman). The committee's members of the Knesset are secretly elected by the Knesset, and one of them is traditionally a member of the opposition, the committee's Supreme Court justices are chosen by tradition from all Supreme Court justices by seniority, the Israeli Bar members are elected by the bar, and the second minister is appointed by the Israeli cabinet. The current justice minister and committee's chairwoman is Ayelet Shaked."

The source for this is Basic Law: The Judicary:
מינוי שופטים (א) שופט יתמנה בידי נשיא המדינה לפי בחירה של ועדה לבחירת שופטים. (ב) הועדה תהיה של תשעה חברים, שהם נשיא בית המשפט העליון, שני שופטים אחרים של בית המשפט העליון שיבחר חבר שופטיו, שר המשפטים ושר אחר שתקבע הממשלה, שני חברי הכנסת שתבחר הכנסת ושני נציגים של לשכת עורכי הדין שתבחר המועצה הארצית של הלשכה; שר המשפטים יהיה יושב ראש הועדה.
Whatever I attributed to "tradition" could also be referenced if needed. Amitayzl (talk) 12:54, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

@Amitayzl: We need a source for the tradition. You wrote that the committee members are secretly elected - the source does not say it. If both facts can be properly supported your proposal sounds like a very welcome change. “WarKosign” 16:22, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

@WarKosign: see here. Pay attention to the secondary title:

"חברי הכנסת יצביעו באופן אנונימי עבור שני נציגים שיכהנו בוועדה"

and to "ראשי סיעות האופוזיציה גיבשו עסקה לקראת ההצבעה החשאית בכנסת."

That source may have an English version (many articles on Haaretz do), I but failed to find it. Amitayzl (talk) 20:14, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Here is a better soure: the law of courts:

"6. הוראות אלה יחולו לענין הועדה לבחירת שופטים שלפי סעיף 4 לחוק-יסוד: השפיטה (להלן - הועדה):

(1) הכנסת תבחר בבחירה חשאית את שני חברי הכנסת שיכהנו כחברי הועדה; הם יכהנו כל עוד הם חברי הכנסת, ואם תמה כהונת הכנסת - עד שהכנסת החדשה תבחר חברים אחרים במקומם והכל בכפוף להוראות חוק הכנסת, התשנ"ד-1994;

(2) המועצה הארצית של לשכת עורכי הדין תבחר את נציגיה בבחירה חשאית; הם יכהנו תקופה של שלוש שנים;
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Amitayzl (talk • contribs) 20:22, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

And a source for the traditions from the Israel Democracy Institute (link) :

"בוועדה תשעה חברים: שר המשפטים, העומד בראשה, נשיא בית המשפט העליון, שני שופטי בית המשפט העליון שאותם בוחרים שאר השופטים (באופן מסורתי על פי ותק), שר נוסף, שני חברי כנסת (באופן מסורתי אחד מהאופוזיציה ואחד מהקואליציה) ושני נציגים של לשכת עורכי הדין." Amitayzl (talk) 20:29, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

WarKosign? Amitayzl (talk) 18:21, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Looks fine to me, I'm waiting to see if anyone objects. “WarKosign” 18:42, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

WarKosign, no one has yet objected, and I truly think no one has any rearson to object. I think you can do this now. Amitayzl (talk) 20:15, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

@Amitayzl: Done, please go over it and check that I didn't mess something up. “WarKosign” 11:48, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

WarKosign, I think it's fine now. However, please pay attention that the article is not up-to-date. For example, the number of Jerusalem residents is as of 2009 (and almost 100,000 people are missing, see Jerusalem). This is most likely because of the very extreme protection. Amitayzl (talk) 17:29, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Consider Suzi Navot, Constitutional Law of Israel, Kluwer Law International 2007 p.146.Nishidani (talk) 11:56, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 August 2016

83.220.238.56 (talk) 09:17, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

add |recognised_languages =

• English

. 83.220.238.56 (talk) 09:17, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

English has no special official status in Israel. If you think otherwise, please provide a source that proves it. “WarKosign” 12:43, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital

I understand that there have been many discussions on the topic of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, including a 56,250+ word RfC discussion that I believe expired on 9 July 2016. I'm sure there are also several discussions of which I am unaware among the 56 Talk archives, so please forgive me for rehashing an ongoing discussion. If there is a recent or ongoing discussion that addresses the exact issues that I raise here, kindly directly me to that discussion.

The lede presently reads that "Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital, although Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is internationally unrecognized." There are two problems with this statement, but for the sake of framing and limiting the discussion, I will deal with only one. Virtually everyone and every country agree that Israel considers/claims/professes/knows/proclaims/believes/understands/views that Jerusalem is legally/religiously/historically/geographically/politically/territoriality/morally/ethically/internationally the capital of Israel. That is virtually undisputed. What is disputed is whether Israel has the legal/religious/historical/geographical/political/territorial/moral/ethical/international right to claim Jerusalem as its capital.

Because this article is about Israel, the fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital should be written without any ambiguity. The fact that Jerusalem as Israel's capital is challenged internationally should also be written without any ambiguity. However, as presently written, the WP:UNDUE and POV is weighted toward the dispute. The reason is the totality of the words "proclaimed" and "Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is internationally unrecognized." By writing "proclaimed", it implies that Israel says it is, but that isn't necessarily so. What other cities that are not disputed capitals does Wikipedia write "proclaimed"? A balanced NPOV sentence would be: "Jerusalem is the capital, although Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is internationally unrecognized." KamelTebaast 06:27, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Israel's and Israel supporter's believe/know/think that Jerusalem is the capital. Some believe that Jerusalem is Palestinian capital that the illegal zionist entity has occupied. Most of the countries say that Israel and the Palestinians have to negotiate the issue of Jerusalem and assume that eventually they will somehow share it. Wikipedia cannot decide that one of the POVs is the correct one, it has to describe this complex situation as neutrally as possible. “WarKosign” 08:40, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

The long RFC you referred to explicitly dealt with the claim that "Jerusalem is Israel's capital", and determined it is not neutral to state that in Wikipedia's voice. It would also be wrong to adopt the majority viewpoint and say outright that "Jerusalem is not Israel's capital", even though this is better in-line with world opinion. But you're on the right track, in that we can definitely say Israel claims it's the capital, and that other nations reject this claim. --Dailycare (talk) 10:21, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Then shouldn't it be written as follows?

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, although Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is internationally unrecognized. KamelTebaast 00:25, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

No. That presents a POV as fact, namely that Jerusalem is Israeli (in Israel). nableezy - 01:10, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2016

In the IPA pronunciation of 'medinat yisrael' the first vowel should be [ə] and not [e].

81.201.196.77 (talk) 20:23, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

This has been discussed recently on this page. Please see #Pronunciation of Israel above. If you have sources for pronunciation, please provide them. “WarKosign” 20:29, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Hotel King David bombing mentioned twice

I propose to delete this redundant paragraph: "On July 22, 1946, Irgun attacked the British administrative headquarters for Palestine, which was housed in the southern wing[128] of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.[129][130][131] 91 people of various nationalities were killed and 46 were injured.[132] The hotel was the site of the central offices of the British Mandatory authorities of Palestine, principally the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces in Palestine and Transjordan.[132][133] The attack initially had the approval of the Haganah (the principal Jewish paramilitary group in Palestine). It was conceived as a response to Operation Agatha (a series of widespread raids, including one on the Jewish Agency, conducted by the British authorities) and was the deadliest directed at the British during the Mandate era (1920–1948).[132][133]" since the attack is mentioned in the following section without so much detail. Besides, there's a chronological problem because this happened after World War II.--Jahsnik (talk) 05:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

You are correct regarding anachronism, however simply deleting the first menton won't do. I suggest moving all the informative bits (exact date, Irgun, British HQ) into the second mention. “WarKosign” 07:18, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

@WarKosign: Agree. Could you merge the two paragraphs? Because currently it looks horrible with such an obvious chronological mistake.--Jahsnik (talk) 23:20, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@Jahsnik: Done, please review.“WarKosign” 09:27, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Literature pictures

User:Avaya1, stop adding picture of Amos Oz. There is no reason to have more than one portrait especially in such a small section. Images does not fit in it and overlap into next sections in Desktop mode. And Agnon is the most influential Israeli writer. Number of languages a writer's works has been translated to is not the best criteria of importance. Agnon's works has been translated into tens of languages too, but unlike Oz, he featured on Israeli currency and won Nobel Prize. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 04:35, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't see the problem with 2 pictures. Debresser (talk) 18:31, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Debresser, there's no reason we couldn't include Oz as well. Jeppiz (talk) 23:25, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't fit and mess up images in other sections. Check his revision in Desktop mode. But more importantly, it's not useful. Both authors are mentioned in text. Why put two portraits? Why not 3? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 01:27, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Well, the consensus seems to be to have pictures of both Agnon and Oz so I suggest we implement that consensus. Jeppiz (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Map of Israel

Hi everybody! Unfortunately, in a recent edit a useful map of Israel was deleted on the ground that the Golan Heights is not included. In response to that:

• 1) First of all, the annexation wasn't recognized internationally.
• 2) The map above, showing Israel on earth, also excludes the Golan Heights.
• 3) The fact that there isn't a map with the Golan, doesn't justify leaving the page without a regular map like all the other countries in Wikipedia.

Therefore, I ask one of you to restore it, since I'm not a confirmed user: |image_map2 =Israel - Location Map (2012) - ISR - UNOCHA.svg Thanks--Jahsnik (talk) 19:52, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

The Purple Line is the de facto border between Israel and Syria after an official agreement in 1974 between the Israeli and Syrian government. Hope this clears out your question. ה-זפר^t@lk 18:51, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Jahsnik. --Midrashah (talk) 20:20, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

The Golan Heights is a part of Israel, according to Israel.[1] KamelTebaast 20:33, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

And we should care... why? We use reliable sources for facts and attribute opinions, such as Netanyahu's. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Netanyahu has no opinion. He is a populist. Anyway, just like China, Sudan, Cyprus and Russia's maps include claimed, disputed and occupied territories, the map of Israel should include, in light green, territories the State of Israel claim are its sovereign territory. The fact is, de-facto, these are Israeli territories, while de-jure they are either Syrian territory (Golan Heights) or the West Bank (East Jerusalem). The West Bank is more complicated and not really claimed by Israel as an integral part of the state. With the West Bank, it is an "opinion", but with the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, it's a "fact". There is no difference between Crimea and the Golan Heights. These are today, de-facto, territories of Russia and Israel, by law, while having no recognition whatsoever.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:41, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Here are other countries which have disputed territories in their maps: Azerbaijan, Moldova, Morocco, Serbia, India, Pakistan, Japan and Ukraine. Guess which country doesn't have it? That's right! Syria! Déjà vu.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:07, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

And to explain this is not just an "opinion": Golan Heights Law and Jerusalem Law. It is not Netanyahu's opinion.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:11, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

"...the map of Israel should include, in light green, territories the State of Israel claim are its sovereign territory." You said the same thing I did, just more verbose. KamelTebaast 17:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

I genuinely can't see where you wrote it, but whatever. Seems like we are having a consensus here, but I still couldn't find a good map.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:11, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. The news article cited by Kamel Tebaast is titled "Netanyahu says Israel will never give up the Golan Heights", so it is his opinion. And Israel can pass laws that say the sky is green, or that the value of π is 3, but it won't make it so. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:08, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I"ve added the disputed territories to the orthographic map (although it is barely visable). I suggest this map in replacement of the other map.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:00, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Golan Heights is not in Israel, so I don't support this map. The map of Russia, for one, clearly marks Crimea in a different colour. Even if you want to show "de facto" stuff, this map isn't good. Incidentally, neither Golan Heights Law, nor Jerusalem Law is accepted by anyone outside Israel. I agree that it's not just "Netanyahu's opinion", but changing "Netayahu" to "Israel" doesn't change the essential point. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:01, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Kingsindian, your sentence, "Golan Heights is not in Israel, so I don't support this map.", is as POV and irrelevant as others have said about Netanyahu's views. The only difference, he is the Prime Minister of Israel, speaking for the country. As far as I understand Wikipedia, it is not about your personal view on the subject. I personally believe that the Golan Heights are a part of Israel. Does that tilt the consensus? KamelTebaast 06:24, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I did not say that "it's my view that Golan Heights" isn't in Israel: I made a statement of fact. See the rest of my statement. I don't have anything further to add to that. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:09, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Your unfettered hubris is appealing. Misguided, but appealing. KamelTebaast 05:35, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

'China, Sudan, Cyprus and Russia', Crimea etc.analogies. Bolter. There is no cogency in these issues: analogies always break down on examination. Israel's 'annexation' of the Golan Heights snapping off territory gained in war some decades ago from a sovereign state, and always subject nonetheless to an eventual peace agreement revision, is not comparable to Russia's resumption of its 2 centuries+ sovereignty over Crimea, which formed part of Russia, and was conceded briefly to the Ukraine when that country was more or less a puppet state of the USSR. Sovereign democratic modern states, as opposed to these, do not include territory recently conquered in war on their maps. That the Republic of China includes the Spratley Islands in maps is not a 'fact' qua legal reality, it's a cartographical statement, as such the only 'fact' is that China produces such maps. Your proposal puts Israel outside the Western conventions,-which fundamentally assert that boundaries are determined not by war but by internationally recognized agreements - and inside the banana totalitarian republics, which do as they will, and tell everyone else to get fucked. The Golan is not in Israel, neither is the West Bank. Everyone International body recognizes that, even the CIA. There are lots of things to fix here, but it's pointless wasting time on trying to get over the idea one national claim must be represented as a 'fact '.Nishidani (talk) 13:19, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Annexation and international recognition is one issue, de-facto control is another. There is no doubt that Israel has full control over Golan and partial control over West Bank, these facts should be represented in the map. “WarKosign” 16:05, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with WarKosign. I'd add that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias should be practical, for the benefit of their readers. At the same time, that doesn't mean we can't solve any issues: we could explain that the map reflects de facto control, or we could have two maps, one for de facto control and another for international recognition. Debresser (talk) 17:05, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I obviously agree with both WarKosign and Debresser. KamelTebaast 17:09, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Since this has the semblance of a mechanical voting process, devoid of significant source-based reasoning or argument, I suggest those who wish to include this stuff in a map of Israel get an RfC up. In the meantime, I have asked for advice from the wiki experts hereNishidani (talk) 19:29, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

As I have explained there, that post comes close to canvassing. Please abide by the consensus here and do not go forumshopping in search of support. Debresser (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

It is not canvassing. Wikipedia is a project that emphasizes neutrality. It is not appropriate for a delicate issue like this to be decided by an ad hoc majority of people strongly attached to Israel, (but not to Syria). The proposal is a serious statement via Wikipedia's global encyclopedia to the world that an historic part of Syrian territory is not Syria any more. You should get an RfC on this. Outside input from people who have no horse in this silly race. Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Just scroll through List of territorial disputes. As far as I checked, any disputed territory large enough to be visible in the map is shown in a lighter shade of green on the locator map along with the main territory of a side claiming the territory. Check Sudan or India for example. “WarKosign” 20:38, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Where do you get the idea it is disputed territory. In 1981 Israel neither annexed the Golan Heights nor asserted sovereignty. In peace talks down to 2009 it has quite consistently offered to 'return' the Heights to Syria, something that signals it is not disputing the legitimacy of Syria's claim. These facts are completely anomalous to notions of territories with disputed sovereignty. All you have in hand is rumours by one government in the last few years that it will never be returned. You don't make maps according to the whims of one particular government, Likud.Nishidani (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

"Area controlled by India shown in dark green; claimed but uncontrolled regions shown in light green." 🔯 Sir Joseph ^🍸(talk) 20:58, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

As I said above, none of these analogies works unless you can show that these countries have expressed a willingness to renounce their claim or forsake their control, as has Israel. Each situation has to be considered on its merits, otherwise you get analogy implication spillover where no proper analogy pertains.Nishidani (talk) 21:14, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Israel claims, controls, and (in domestic law) has annexed the Golan Heights. Israel took control of the Golan Heights in 1967, 50 years ago. Israel effectively annexed the Golan Heights in 1981, 35 years ago. Granted, Israeli Governments have offered this land back to Syria in the past. But that doesn't change the current situation and position of Israel. It has been 10 years since Israel showed any signs of willingness to return the Golan Heights to Syria. As far as Israel is concerned, the Golan Heights are its territory. The Russian annexation of Crimea is also widely considered illegal, but still we show this on the map. Just because there isn't a perfect analogy doesn't mean we shouldn't show the situation as is. Light green is disputed territory, claimed and controlled by Israel. A few minor unique technicalities dont change this fact. Rob984 (talk) 23:36, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

This discussion is untethered to anything concrete. I, on the other hand, was reacting to this proposed map by Bolter21, which did not show Golan, West Bank, etc. in different color, unlike the Crimea case. I have indicated why I oppose the map. People are free to waste their time though. I note, incidentally, that Crimea is shown in light green both in the Ukraine and the Russian maps. So that could be a model for the Golan. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:24, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Currently map of Syria shows Golan identical to territory controlled by Syria, without any indication of the fact that the land de-facto part of Israel in the last 35 years. It's silly and misleading. “WarKosign” 07:00, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Nonsense, for reasons given above. 'Control' has no relevance to internationally recognized borders. Nishidani (talk) 10:31, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

'Internationally recognized borders' have no relevance to control. Pretending that Golan is in Syria doesn't make it real. “WarKosign” 11:00, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

I"ll break it down for you:

• China's map Show territories China claims but don't control (McMahon Line and Taiwan)
• Sudan's map Show territories Sudan claims but don't control (Abyei and Hala'ib Triangle)
• Cyprus's map show territories Cyprus claims but don't conttrol (Northern Cyprus)
• Russia's map show territories Russia claims and control but are not internationally recognized (Crimea)
• Azerbaijan's map show territories Azerbaijan claims but don't control (Nagorno Karabakh)
• Moldova's map show territories Moldova claims but don't control (Transnistria)
• Morocco's map show territories Morocco claims, control and don't control, but are not internationally recognized (Western Sahara)
• Serbia's map show territories Serbia claims but don't control (Kosovo)
• India's map show territories India claims but don't control (Gilgit-Baltistan, Azad Kashmir and Aksai Chin)
• Pakistan's map show territories Pakistan claims but don't control (Jammu and Kashmir)
• Japan's map show territories Japan claims but don't control (Kuril Islands)
• Ukraine's map show territories Ukraine claims but don't control (Crimea)

Now what is the problem with adding:

• Israel's map show territories Israel claim and control but are not internationally recognized (East Jerusalem and Golan Heights)
• Syria's map show territories Syria claim but don't control (Golan Heights)

It's not a matter of if you agree or not. I don't think Russia has any right to be in Crimea, but it doesn't change the fact Russia officially claims Crimea and also control it. The light green represent the disputed territories of a country. Israel has laws defining that the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem are part of Israel, therefore Israel de-jure claim these territories to be part of "Israel". The same happens with China, which claims the McMahon line. Not showing a territory claimed by a country, that also happens to be fully controlled by it, is a violation of NPOV, because it is not your job to delegitimize a country's claim to a territory, just like no one disputes India's claims to the rest of Jammu and Kashmir, or Sudan's claims to the Hala'ib triangle. Israel (The Evil Jewish Nazis Who Murder A Million Christian Children Every Day To Put Their Blood On Matzo) happened to conquer the Golan Heights and make a law saying it is part of it. Don't like it? Not Wikipedia's problem. This is just one, of a hundred territorial claims, which some of them are shown in country maps. When you define "Israel" in a map, you might as well show, only in light green, what Israel define "Israel" and also happens to practice it.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:04, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Syria does not 'claim' the Golan Heights. In international law, that lies within the borders of Syria. Only Israel 'claims' the Golan Heights, and is backed in that claim by no one. The only outstanding area disputed there, and not yet settled in international law, is the Shebaa farms, contested with Lebanon. Israel can 'claim' all it likes: the land is Syrian sovereign territory, and Israel's laws regarding it are null and void by a Security Council Resolution. Still, this is a numbers game, and Likudization via imaginative maps. By bthe same token we shall soon have a map of the West Bank in 'Israel'. I don't care one way or another, however. Nishidani (talk) 12:26, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Capital wording in infobox

We recently had a discussion on this very page on whether to refer to Jerusalem as the "disputed" or the "internationally unrecognised" capital of Israel, and so far as I know the consensus was very much for "internationally unrecognised" as accurate, NPOV and less ambiguous. I was surprised, therefore to find the wording changed unilaterally by the user Ha-Zephyr (ה-זפר) back to "disputed"–with this even obfuscated within a footnote, leaving no immediate challenge to it in the infobox for the lay reader. I put it back, but was reverted. Am I wrong? Was that not the consensus we reached? If so I am more than a little confused with the present wording and formatting. Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  20:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

@Cliftonian Do Excuse me for the trouble. It was an error not noticed by me. I just noticed, and it has been corrected back to as "internationally unrecognized". Thank you ה-זפר^t@lk 20:47, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Bullshit. That was not an error. You simply imposed your personal preference on this article. You didn't have the honesty to describe what you did in your edit summary and you marked your reversion as a minor edit. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Putting the issue of the wording to one side, where has having this in a footnote come from? This was never discussed at all. I've put it back to the consensus version and I think it should stay that way until we thrash this out properly here on talk. —  Cliftonian (talk)  07:54, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Have self-reverted per WP:1RR. —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:59, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't really understand what the issue of the recent slow-going edit war is, but I want to call upon all editors to discuss and not revert. I would be willing to mediate, if anybody thinks I would be fit to do so. Debresser (talk) 09:21, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

The point of contention now is essentially between the two versions visible on this diff: that is, whether to have "internationally unrecognized" next to the word "Jerusalem" in the infobox as we had done for a while or to instead have it in a footnote, as it is at present following HaZephyr's change here. Note this wasn't mentioned in the edit summary when the change was made. Cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

If that is all, then we can simply exchange opinions here on the talkpage, and decide by consensus. No reason to edit war about this.

The question is then whether the fact that the status of Jerusalem is contended is important enough to have in the text proper, or a footnote is enough for this information. Opinions, please. Debresser (talk) 11:44, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we need to ask for opinions. We shouldn't re-open the discussion—above at Use of "disputed" vs "internationally unrecognized" for Jerusalem—which ended less than two months ago, because two editors won't abide by consensus. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:53, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

The question is not whether it should be "disputed" or "internationally unrecognized". The question is whether it should be in the text or in a footnote. Debresser (talk) 09:56, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

My apologies. I misread your question. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:13, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

• It should be a footnote. It already gives something which is political in nature (recognition vs. non-recognition) more importance than it deserves, and putting on par with a fact (that it is the capital) would be undue weight. Epson Salts (talk) 14:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
• LOL. It's a "fact" that Jerusalem is Israel's capital, but "political in nature" that the whole world doesn't recognize that? Nope. They're both facts, and they're both political in nature. One fact shouldn't be shunted off to a footnote because it makes supporters of Israel uncomfortable. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:13, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

• Couldn't have put it better myself. —  Cliftonian (talk)  07:42, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I asked Triggerhippie4 to comment. We need some outside input here, or this discussion can end up a stalemate. I posted it at WT:JUDAISM . Debresser (talk) 10:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• Notes should be in footnotes. That's why this feature is exist in infobox. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 10:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Ethnic groups

Does the percentage of "Ethnic groups" cover people from "problematic areas" such as Gaza, West bank and Golan Heights? Meanwhile, location map excludes those "problematic areas". However, I hope Israeli census does not exclude Jewish in those areas. We need to correct all, especially location map that give error view. --AntanO 03:17, 18 September 2016 (UTC) Well, Israeli censuses cover all of the population in localities recognized by Israel. The entire Golan Heights are fully annexed along with the native population, as well as East Jerusalem. The rest of the West Bank is not annexed but the Israeli settlements there are recognized by Israel and counted as well. The Arab localities of the West Bank are not counted.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:04, 20 September 2016 (UTC)