Talk:Sustainability

Subpages

• FA Project; Latest Peer review
• Lead
• Definition
• History
• Description
• Measuring sustainability
• Environmental dimension
  • Application/Implementation Environmental management
  • Application/Implementation/consumption Management of consumption
• Social material
• Economic opportunity
• Talk:Sustainability/Transformation (was Talk:Sustainability/Barriers)
• "leftover" material from copyedit, unlinked references etc

17th to 19th centuries - fossil fuels?

"But it was the Western industrial revolution of the 17th to 19th centuries that tapped into the vast growth potential of the energy in fossil fuels to power sophisticated machinery technology.[28]"

The citation goes to a source about cholera, not fossil fuels. Also, 17th century? Seems at least one century too early for the Industrial Revolution. Scoopczar (talk) 20:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Will fix these.Granitethighs 09:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Business Connotations?

Pyramid Scheme links to this page and references the term in context of business/money. Was this intentional, and this page isn't complete, or is the link wrong in assuming that this page is also about that meaning of "sustainability?" Magicallydajesus (talk) 12:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

GA candidate?

I know that a tremendous amount of work has gone into this article, and that some editors had high hopes for it. Surely it would be worth nominating this article at WP:GAN? It would be great to see this article become a GA. Johnfos (talk) 21:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it would be a great opportunity to sharpen up the references and apply some fine-tuning to the editing. I'll certainly help.Granitethighs 22:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The article is still a mess. It's overlong, polemical, and indiscriminate in its approach to the topic of sustainability. I think we need to seriously address those issues before this article is submitted for GA consideration. Uncle Dick (talk) 22:48, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree with the tag at the top of the article which says: "This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably" -- some content needs to be spun off into sub-articles per WP:Summary style, with a summary being left here. The "Environmental dimension" section is also tagged and so needs some work. Some inline tags need attending to in the "Consumption — population, technology, resources" section. Some copyediting is needed and I notice that this piece of random text, "[[File:control over the environment." appears in the History section. Once these changes are made I think the article would be ready for GAN... Johnfos (talk21 September 2010 (UTC)

Johnfos thanks for your suggestion. I see there are 240 watchers to this page ... which indicates to me both its popularity and its "controversiality". Not sure where we go from here but thanks for your positive and encouraging suggestion.Granitethighs 23:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, GT. I would think that cutting down the Sustainability measurement section should be a first step, as there is already an article on this which is linked to. Then decide what can be split from the article, leaving just a summary here. GAs do not need to be long, in fact reviewers are pleased to see WP:Summary style being used. Hope this helps. Johnfos (talk) 00:00, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I've done quite a bit of editing today and article is shorter now due to trimming and use of summary style, and it is easier to navigate and read due to the amalgamation of many single paragraph sections. Please see edit summaries for full details. I plan to submit the article at GAN tomorrow. Johnfos (talk) 03:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

That's much cleaner now JF. Thanks for doing all that. My only comment would be to do with the "transition" section that was removed. You were right that this was at least in part a "wrapping up": if Wikipedia does not do that ... then so be it. However, any positive suggestions for ways of achieving sustainability are extremely valuable in an article that has the potential to become very "gloomy". Is there no place for the sentence (or variation of) "There is a wealth of advice available to individuals wishing to reduce their personal impact on the environment through small, cheap and easily achievable steps. But the transition required to reduce global human consumption to within sustainable limits involves much larger changes, at all levels and contexts of society. The United Nations has recognised the central role of education, and have declared a decade of education for sustainable development, 2005–2014, which aims to "challenge us all to adopt new behaviours and practices to secure our future". The Worldwide Fund for Nature proposes a strategy for sustainability that goes beyond education to tackle underlying individualistic and materialistic societal values head-on and strengthen people's connections with the natural world." Much as I like the inclusion of Bookchin I think having him almost at the end is not appropriate (and Deep Ecology is also a bit much for the casual reader - it needs to be in, but not in the last sentence) - the idea that we need some sort of "transformation" to achieve sustainability is very important and should be clearly expressed in some positive way - preferably near the end. I think the above sentence (with added references) catches the right tone.Granitethighs 11:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks GT. I've swapped the order of the last two sections so the article ends on a more positive note, and have re-added the text you have suggested... Johnfos (talk) 01:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sustainability/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sasata (talk) 04:23, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Greetings, I've signed up for this review. I think it's fantastic this is at GAN, it's a subject I'm very interested in. I will read through carefully and make minor copyedits as I go along, and bring other stuff up for discussion here. The review will probably take me up to a week, as I have to balance my wikitime among several projects :) Sasata (talk) 04:23, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Sasata. Glad that you are able to do the review. Feel free to discuss things as you go along, as we have a number of editors who will be watching this page, and who should be able to help :) Johnfos (talk) 04:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for taking up the running with this Sasata - haven't we met somewhere before? J, I like what you have done and am not requesting change. I like the way you have saved the culled information. The following thoughts are to possibly tease out issues and better presentation of ideas only.

• The headings ‘environment’, ‘society’ and ‘economics’ reflect the “three pillars” of sustainability. Would it help either the understanding of the reader or editor presentation of these topics if they all had identical subheadings? So, since we have the subheadings “environmental management” and “management of human consumption” under Environmental dimension, why not “economic management” with “management of human consumption” under Economic dimension (or, vice-versa, have different subheadings under Environmental dimension?

• Similarly we have a Main sub-article “Sustainability and environmental management”, for consistency should we also have “Sustainability and economic/social management” sub-articles?

• We can worry about it later but the “Sustainability and environmental management” sub-article is currently rather illogically presented – and clearly a “dumping ground” for extraneous info – the headings don’t relate and the content is not intuitive. Most of it is actually in the current sustainability article so what is its purpose?

• We have removed the “Extinctions” section – but wouldn’t some argue that sustainability and irreversible loss of biodiversity are intimately connected. Do they have a point and should extinction at least get a mention?

• Various sources quote biological invasions as the third greatest impact on biodiversity after climate change and land clearing. Is this relevant to sustainability and if so perhaps some mention could be made of it in the article as the "Biological invasions" section has now been removed?

Granitethighs 11:17, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Sustainability is a huge topic and not everything about it can be included in a single WP article. So some material appears in sub-articles, and recently the sub-article Sustainability and environmental management was created. This was in response to a tag at the top of this article suggesting that the article was "too long" and that WP:Summary style should be used. As this main article expands other sub-articles may be spun off, but for now it is within WP length requirements, and so there is no need for more sub-articles at this stage.

When an article is spun off, and a summary left here, there is inevitably some loss of detailed information in the main article. And the loss of information relating to Extinctions and Biological invasions has been questioned. So I have added links to Extinction and Introduced species in the See also section. This gives these topics a mention in the main article but still helps to keep the "Environmental dimension" section manageable.

As for the "Economic dimension" and "Social dimension" sections they are not too long and are fine as they are. I don't see any advantage in making the sub-headings there follow those used in the "Environmental dimension" section. Johnfos (talk) 20:40, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. The only remaining query is why most of the sub-article Sustainability and environmental management is the same as the section in the main article? Granitethighs 11:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

The summary in the main Sustainability article (reproduced at User:Johnfos/Drafts) is 8,827 bytes long with a total of 16 references, whereas the Sustainability and environmental management sub-article is 20,809 bytes long with 36 references. So the sub-article is a lot (12k) longer than the summary section in the main article, which is the way it should be. And as the new sub-article expands that difference would get greater. Johnfos (talk) 16:14, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I've read through the article and made a number of minor copyedits, feel free to revert anything you don't agree with. I thought the article was very well done—engaging prose, good use of summary style, amply cited. Here's a few thoughts I had: Sasata (talk) 16:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• why include a year in the captions to the images in the definition section? It's not vital information to understand the concepts presented, and readers can check the citation if they want to know when it was published.

Fixed. Johnfos (talk) 01:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• in a few cases a citation was in the middle of a sentence when I thought it would do equally well at the end. For example,

• "But sustainability is also a call to action, a task in progress or “journey”[20] and therefore a political process, so some definitions set out common goals and values." here the placement of the cite indicates (to me) that emphasis is placed on showing the source of the quote word "journey". So is the remainder of the sentence OR, or is the idea also from the same source? If it is, then the cite should be placed at the end.

Fixed Granitethighs 21:43, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• "...because the number of children under age 15 in developing countries will decrease." How do we know for sure? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "...is predicted to decrease." ?

Fixed. Johnfos (talk) 01:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• "Long-term estimates of global population suggest a peak at around 2070 of nine to ten billion people, and then a slow decrease to 8.4 billion by 2100." This is interesting, is there any explanation of why this (predicted) decrease will happen?

Readers can look up the cited article - the explanation would probably take up quite a lot of space and there are other large articles on WP about population - and the article does give links to these.Granitethighs 21:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• In the "Environmental dimension" section, it should be possible to discuss the two major ways of reducing human impact without having to indent paragraphs and dividing into a and b

Fixed. Johnfos (talk) 18:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• "At the local human scale, major sustainability benefits accrue from the pursuit of green cities and sustainable parks and gardens." benefits accrue from just pursuing them? I would have thought benefits would accrue from implementing them.

Fixed. Johnfos (talk) 18:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• "The ideas of embodied resource use (the total resources needed to produce a product or service), resource intensity (the resources needed for each dollar spent on a good or service), and resource productivity (the amount of good or service produced for a given input of resource) are important tools for understanding the impacts of consumption with simple key resource categories indicating human needs being food, energy, materials and water." This long sentence seems a bit awkward to me.

Fixed Johnfos (talk) 18:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• "... this percentage is likely to increase if climate change worsens ..." How are we defining "worsens"?

Fixed. Johnfos (talk) 18:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• "Humans currently use 40–50% of the globally available freshwater" when is currently? Better to use "According to a 1998 estimate" or something similar that gives a date.

Fixed Granitethighs 21:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• "The World Health Organization has published a Global Strategy on Diet, Physical Activity and Health which was endorsed" missing something like "... has published (a set of recommendations titled/a report) ..."

Fixed. Johnfos (talk) 21:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• "water-self-sufficient" should reword to avoid the consecutive hyphens

Fixed. Johnfos (talk) 04:31, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• "The average human uses 45–85 tonnes of materials each year." Could this be clarified? What exactly does "use" imply here?

Removed this confusing statement. Johnfos (talk) 21:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• "In the second half of the 20th century world population doubled, food production tripled, energy use quadrupled, and overall economic activity quintupled." Compared to what? The first half of the century?

Have removed this confusing sentence which added little. Johnfos (talk) 09:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• "etc." should be used sparingly, and removed if possible. For example, in the sentence:

• "One approach to this dilemma has been the attempt to "internalise" these "externalities" by using market strategies like ecotaxes and incentives, tradeable permits for carbon, water and nitrogen use etc., and the encouragement of payment for ecosystem services."

Here the use of the word "like" before giving the list implies that it's only a reprentative sampling, and the etc. isn't really required. There's some other instances in the article that might be tweaked out. Also, is water and nitrogen use a "market strategy"?

Removed "water and nitrogen use etc." so sentence makes more sense. Johnfos (talk) 08:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• "Community currencies such as LETS... " should spell out the acronym (at least on first usage)

Fixed. Johnfos (talk) 04:31, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• there are a few citations to books that don't have the page numbers
• citation formatting not completely consistent: most use templates, but some don't; listing of authors varies sometimes (e.g. compare Hawken, P, Lovins, A.B. & L.H. versus Devall, W. and G. Sessions); et al. should be in italics. It's not a huge deal for GA, but since we're here, we might as well clean them up a bit, no?

Have changed et al. to et al. Johnfos (talk) 20:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks for reviewing and for your help, Sasata. I hope enough improvements have been made to bring the article up to GA standard, but agree that more work on the citations would be needed if the article was to proceed to FA. Johnfos (talk) 20:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

We're pretty close... there's a few dabs that need to be fixed up, listed here. Sasata (talk) 15:51, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I've fixed the dabs - except for the "sustainability governance" thingy - not sure how to do this. At some time (too busy now) I will go systematically through all the references for consistency.Granitethighs 22:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• One more thing, the lead needs a bit of work, it's not really functioning as a summary of the article now as the MOS suggests. For an article this size, I'd expect it to be a full three or four paragraphs. Also, there shouldn't be quotes in the lead, especially those not in the article body. Should Wikipedia be giving such a prominent spotlight to a Californian environmentalist, in an important article that's viewed several thousand times daily? (no offence to Paul Hawken, btw, I just think the quote should be moved, not removed) Sasata (talk) 04:59, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Lead now provides a better summary of the article. Johnfos (talk) 06:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I think my job here is done. Thanks Johnfos and Granitethighs for your improvements to this article. Sasata (talk) 14:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Results of review

GA review (see here for criteria)

---

The article sustainability passes this review, and has been promoted to good article status. The article is found by the reviewing editor to be deserving of good article status based on the following criteria:

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   Prose is well-written, uses summary style; article complies with MOS. Reference formatting consistency sufficient for GA.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Several references were checked, nothing was amiss.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   All images are PD or are appropriately licensed.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail: Pass

Sustainability template discussion

There is a discussion here concerning the suitability of Template:Sustainability, which watchers of this page may be interested in contributing to. --Epipelagic (talk) 08:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. I should have noted it here. Thanks. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

There is further discussion here about the scope and format of this currently rather messy template, which needs input from editors with some acquaintance with sustainability issues. --Epipelagic (talk) 21:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Tenbrooks10, 26 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}}

Just trying to help. Footnote 8 has a bad link for 60/1. 2005 World Summit Outcome. The correct one is:

http://data.unaids.org/Topics/UniversalAccess/worldsummitoutcome_resolution_24oct2005_en.pdf

Tenbrooks10 (talk) 23:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

 Done. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia. Intelligentsium 01:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

sustainable

I have looked up sustainability, and the answer there does not give me the information I am looking for. If anyone could give me any information about what SUSTAINABLE means then I would be very grateful. Thankyou for any info. --88.108.91.74 (talk) 06:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Tried Wiktionary? --Thrissel (talk) 16:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

This article only describes sustainability exclusively from an ecological context. It should be discussed from a life-cycle context for systems engineering - whether it be an ecological system or a technological should make no difference. Contrast with "sustainable energy" for example.--71.245.164.83 (talk) 02:23, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The article is really quite broad in its coverage, and discusses the environmental, economic, and social dimensions of sustainability. Johnfos (talk) 02:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

There are engineering implications of sustainability that are severely lacking, and the term is derived from the cost of life-cycle (particularly post-development) activities with engineering. This is not outside of sustainable energy, but remains relevant to biological sciences as well.--74.107.74.39 (talk) 01:35, 25 May 2011 (UTC) This article is lacking in engineering sustainability. Whether ecological or technological, every system has a life-cycle, and it comes at a cost.--74.107.74.39 (talk) 02:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Add Planetary management and Planetary boundaries links to article.

Add Planetary management and Planetary boundaries wikilinks to article. 99.19.46.184 (talk) 05:47, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Have added links to Sustainability and environmental management. Johnfos (talk) 06:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Add cross-reference wikilinks in related articles? Such as in Talk:Climate change mitigation scenarios, Talk:Planetary management, and Talk:Environmental management? See Talk:Sustainability and environmental management? 209.255.78.138 (talk) 21:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Considering your history in adding some clearly incorrect Wikilinks, and many tangentally related links, I would like to see specific reasons for each of those links. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Saw this on Talk:Planetary_management#Include_Environmental_management_as_this_article_is_about_global_environmental_management_of_Earth

... Who's history?

This "history": User:Arthur_Rubin#Global_warming_.2F_climate_change ? 99.181.128.247 (talk) 05:47, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, that points to some of your history of adding clearly incorrect Wikilinks. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:09, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Is Special:Contributions/108.73.113.9 an addition? If so, should you state "108 Anon." also? 99.181.131.29 (talk) 07:09, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

You're all clearly the same person, and most of edits were done by 99. anons. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:21, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Is Special:Contributions/99.181.134.91 also? And see User talk:99.181.135.251 (Special:Contributions/99.181.135.251) ... What "Lie"? Who is deceiving who? Obscurantism, Fear, uncertainty and doubt, Denialism ... Are you / have you been deceived? Are you deceiving or attempting to deceive others, or yourself? What is the root(s) and what are the branches?

Are you numb, Figure.09, or is it just more Lying from You ... de:Fragetechnik / zh:六何法 / es:Cinco W / what, What?

Whatever you are, please temper your weaponizing wp attitude ... 99.112.213.150 (talk) 21:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Yep, all the same, or pretending to be the same. Excessive, and many clearly inappropriate (including at least 2 absurd in your last post), wikilinks (including retrofitting additional wikilinks on those of other anons), wikilinking the entire edit summary, often saying "per talk" when the talk page has not one word in favor of the edit. I don't think I could fake that mode if I tried. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Please, help me understand what you are attempting to communicate. 99.56.121.133 (talk) 23:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

1. All the IPs make the same edits with the same bizarre edit summaries; you're either all the same or some of you are using the style of the others.
2. Most of the excess Wikilinks in the "See also" section are tangential, at best. Assuming you're the same editor who was trying to add 350.org to each instance of the number "350" in Wikipedia, your mission is to improve connectivity to your favorite pages.
3. Pretending that a word such as "emotions" must be linked, even though the meaning is obvious, or replaced by "affect", even though the meaning is not in the wikipedia article. I can't imagine the purpose
4. Creating fake wikilinks (such as numb and Lying from You, above). Again, I can't imagine the purpose.
5. Creating easter eggs, such as [[scientific consensus on global warming|individual opinions on global warming]]. I think the purpose is again to direct traffic to your preferred articles, but here, it's at the expense of accuracy.
6. Spamming {{for|the current climate change|global warming}} on all articles containing the word "global warming" or "climate change" in the title. I'm not sure what the purpose is, here, either.

All of this is against Wikipedia policy and guidelines, and should be stamped out. As "you" are an IP, the alternatives would be to semiprotect all climate change articles, or block your IP ranges. I don't recommend the first, and I suspect that there are some sensible editors using the IPs in your range, so the second would have the unfortunate effect of blocking rational editors. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Keeping in mind what Wikipedia is and is not ... for point 3 are you referring to Keynesian economics's Animal spirits (Keynes) and Animal Spirits: How Human Psychology Drives the Economy, and Why It Matters for Global Capitalism? This Talk page is for Sustainability, not your trunk, using the previous public comment's metaphor. 99.35.12.47 (talk) 01:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm explaining why your edits are almost always bad, and so should be considered questionable here. I'd put the edits in question here in category 2, but the fact that you make bad edits in the other categories can be taken into account. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Bad, is that really the word for which you look? Could you be more cordial, pithy, civil, and helpful please? 99.56.121.12 (talk) 08:17, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

What I'm looking for is "harmful to Wikipedia". "Bad" seems adequate for that.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you first started linking 350.org to every instance of the number "350" in Wikipedia. But, after you kept doing it, even after being informed it was inappropriate, you've lost any credibility you may have. I'm still attempting to assume good faith, but your goals in editing are incompatible with Wikipedia's goals. I'm tempted to invoke WP:COMPETENCE; even assuming good faith, allowing you to edit requires more cleanup than your few good edits are worth. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

How are wikilinks to related topics within articles "harmful"? 99.112.212.20 (talk) 20:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

And that's about enough of that. Semi-protected. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:51, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

File:Nested sustainability-v2.gif

I suggest removal of the image. It's misleading, without the context that it represents an opinion. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:16, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

The two diagrammatic representations of the interrelationship between economics, society and ecology are both used quite widely in the literature and express different views of their interrelations. They are both described in the "definition" section with citations and "context" and they assist the reader to think about the issues involved. Why would you want to remove either them?Granitethighs 05:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Granitethighs. Just take a look at the image's global file usage and you can see that it's used in many Wikipedias. Surely, we can't all be making the same mistake, can we? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 13:41, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't say that the image(s) were all added by the same people, but there are certainly cases (in the case of recently deceased individuals of questionable notability) where the same information has been added in multiple Wikipedias by the same people. Furthermore, not all Wikipedias have the same standards.

I'm just commenting on this Wikipedia, and the fact that we (per WP:NOR) need a source which connects the concept with sustainability, as that doesn't appear in the diagram. (Titles do not provide a connection; even in peer-reviewed journals, the title is the author's choice, and does not necessarily reflect an editorial review process.) The "labeled" Venn diagram below, is at least plausibly related, although I corrected a minor error in sourcing. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Added {{verification failed}}; that concept is not in the source given. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:17, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Arthur – I may have missed your point. Are you suggesting the caption is misleading? What about “A representation of the relationship between the three pillars of sustainability suggesting that both economy and society are constrained by environmental limits” Where can I see the above Venn diagram which has not been allowed here? Granitethighs 22:11, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm suggesting the caption is misleading (but that's my opinion), and no source for the relationship between the caption or article and the diagram or concept behind the diagram has been provided. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh dear, I too am opposed to the removal of this image. I find it interesting, Arthur, that you seem to have a problem with it. Please clarify what your problem really is. To me it is utterly self evident and certainly requires no "source". Anyway, the image is juxtaposed with File:Sustainable development.svg, which maps out every possible alternate view. To me, that is the image that needs sources. For example, there is a region for people who hold a view that there can be an economy which is based on neither a society nor an environment. Now how you could possibly have an economy that has no people as consumers and no environment from which you can produce consumer goods. That diagram seems deeply problematic to me, perhaps a matter for psychiatric attention. --Epipelagic (talk) 11:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

So, what do the theories expressed in the diagrams have to do with "sustainability"? There's evidence in the second (the real Venn diagram), but not in the first with concentric ovals (stylized from circles to allow the tags to be added). If the sentence sourced to Porritt (2006, p. 46) is properly sourced, so would the diagram. I'm saying there's nothing resembling it in Ott (2003), and the way you and I interpret the diagram has nothing to do with any of the concepts defined as "sustainability" in this article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:57, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Arthur I am still not exactly sure what you are asking - I think we are at cross-purposes. You say “What do the theories expressed in the diagrams have to do with "sustainability". How doesn’t the following caption (which I suggested above) indicate the relevance of the subject matter to sustainability? “A representation of the relationship between the three pillars of sustainability suggesting that both economy and society are constrained by environmental limits” And in the text in the article, what is wrong with the Porritt reference and citation - to me it is absolutely direct, transparent and at the core of what sustainability is all about? Am I missing something? The two diagrams also occur in a book called Green Economics (among others), for example, which I can cite if you feel there are no printed sources adequately cited. There seems to be a consensus against removal of the diagram but I have assumed good faith and would like you to be satisfied that your case has at least been addressed.Granitethighs 00:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

If of interest, further Talk on Talk:Individual and political action on climate change, and some asides on Wikipedia talk:A nice cup of tea and a sit down. 108.73.113.97 (talk) 01:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ignoring the IP making irrelevant comments, again, the statement connecting the diagram with the topic (sustainability) is what needs a reliable source. If the diagrams and the connection to "sustainability" are in Green Economics, that seems adequate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

That's fine - I'll fix it up.Granitethighs 08:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Although I don't have a copy of the book, I'm willing to believe that that book makes the connection. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

This is more specific Talk:Individual_and_political_action_on_climate_change#Add_File:Nested_sustainability-v2.gif ... Wikipedia:Adminitis? 99.190.87.1 (talk) 18:12, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The image is clearly inappropriate in that article, except in the context I sarcastically described earlier on that talk age. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

clearly is an overly strong word, Arthur, please see Talk:Individual_and_political_action_on_climate_change#Add_File_:_Nested_sustainability-v2.gif_w.2Fincluded_reference_Ott.2C_K._.282003.29_..._from_Sustainability.. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 23:06, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

. "Clearly" is a bit strong. What should be said is that, clearly, no sources have been provided to support the connection between that image, a caption, and that article. If a reliable source were provided for the connection, it's possible the other image might be usable in that article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Inappropriate is an extremism (Paul Collier) also, per wp's own Scientific opinion on climate change. Also see Sustainable Development: Linking economy, society, environment; per the link OECD Insights: Sustainable Development provides an essential introduction to the complex relationships between the economy, society and the environment. As global inequality and climate change become mainstream concerns, it asks the questions our generation needs to ask in terms everyone can understand. 209.255.78.138 (talk) 19:42, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That's a bit of a stretch, and I'm not sure that OECD qualifies as an "expert" for avoiding WP:SPS restrictions. It also supports neither the caption or the diagram, although it may loosely loosely support the connection to "climate change", but not as to either "... action ..." or "public opinion ...". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:57, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Please work on decreasing your Wikipedia:WEASEL weasel wording (a bit of, I'm not sure, although it may loosely loosely, and many of your other comments (Special:Contributions/Arthur_Rubin)). That kind of wording decreases effective consensus-building on content editing of wp articles. 99.190.87.216 (talk) 06:13, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Sustainability and Poverty

Template:WAP assignment The sustainability and poverty section is a contribution from a student in Spring 2011 Conservation Biology (Bill Platt) at Louisiana State University. Any feedback on the contribution by the community will be appreciated. BJC 22:21, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

A new editor has asked for feedback on the following which has been inserted in the main article. Could other editors assist in providing feedback please?

Further information: Poverty

A major hurdle to achieve sustainability is the alleviation of poverty. It has been widely acknowledged that poverty is one source of environmental degradation. Such acknowledgment has been made by the Brundtland Commission report Our Common Future and the Millennium Development Goals. According to the Brundtland report, “poverty is a major cause and effect of global environmental problems. It is therefore futile to attempt to deal with environmental problems without a broader perspective that encompasses the factors underlying world poverty and international inequality.” Individuals living in poverty then to rely heavily on the ecosystem as a source for basic needs (such as nutrition and medicine) and general well-being. As population growth continues to increase, increasing pressure is being placed on the ecosystem to provide these basic essentials. According to the UN Population Fund, high fertility and poverty have been strongly correlated, and the world’s poorest countries also have the highest fertility and population growth rates.

Thank you, I think this is an excellent addition to the article – well done. And good to have you joining the WP community.

The overall content is IMO fine (which is the main thing) and needs little attention – just minor editing. In the spirit of assisting new editors though I will run through some suggestions especially concerning WP protocols and editing in general as this might help in future.

• Although it is good to be “bold” in editing, where an article is of a fairly high standard like this one which is a GA or when a topic that has the potential to be controversial (see this article has been partially "locked" to editors), it makes editing easier and less stressful if new material is presented first on the “talk” page. This allows for free discussion of any issues before it is placed live in the article itself. If editors disagree with content that goes straight into the main article it can lead to “edit wars” with people reverting changes again and again – best if this can be sorted out on the talk page.

• Brevity. Perhaps the greatest skill of editing is to convey ideas as briefly and clearly as possible, cutting out all unnecessary and extraneous material. Of course, opinions will differ on exactly how this is to be done in any given case but I think we could reduce what you have said just a little. For example, the heading “Poverty” would probably be sufficient for the new material as we can assume the "sustainability" bit. I have reduced a little of the rest of the material too as you will see.

• I have removed “It has been widely acknowledged that poverty is one source of environmental degradation” simply because it is often pointed out that such statements really need back-up evidence and citations. In other words, what is “widely acknowledged” can be a matter of opinion and WP always requires citations to back up assertions. This case is innocuous but it helps to get into good habits.

• One suggestion that you might like to follow up as a minor addition. In the literature it is often suggested that statistically it has been shown that the education of women in regions of poverty leads to smaller families which breaks or at least alleviates the cycle of poverty and environmental deterioration. What do you think? This might be worth mentioning but it would need citation(s).

The following, slightly adjusted content is suggested. We may well, I hope, get suggestions or from other editors.

Poverty

One major hurdle for sustainability is the alleviation of poverty. Both the Brundtland Commission report Our Common Future^[136] and the Millennium Development Goals^[137] draw attention to the link between poverty and environmental degradation. According to the Brundtland report, “poverty is a major cause and effect of global environmental problems. It is therefore futile to attempt to deal with environmental problems without a broader perspective that encompasses the factors underlying world poverty and international inequality.”^[138] Those living in poverty rely heavily on the ecosystem as a source of basic needs (such as nutrition and medicine) and general well-being.^[139] As the world population increases so does the pressure on the ecosystem to provide essentials. According to the UN Population Fund, high fertility and poverty have been strongly correlated, and the world’s poorest countries also have the highest fertility and population growth rates.^[140]

Hope this is some help.Granitethighs 00:58, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Granitethighs, thank you for our warm welcome to the WP community. I am especially grateful for your advice on WP protocols, honestly I was not aware of these code of conduct. I was under the impression I would follow the referencing and neutrality guidelines. I'll be sure to adhere to these protocols going forward.

Upon reviewing your edits I would agree with these changes. Secondly, I am aware of the statistics on education of women, smaller families and poverty alleviation. I'll try to gather some sources on this topic.

At this time, would you recommend that the section "Poverty and Sustainability" be taken down from the main page and brought to the "talk" page, or can we incorporate your edits and leave it on the main page? Best regards, Narendra.lsu

Thanks Narendra, I'm glad that was some help. You can indent your comments on the talk page by using the colon(s) (see start of this comment). As your entry on the main page has not roused editors to make changes I would leave it there: it also indicates general approval if there is not an immediate response to changes, so you can see you have made a valuable contribution. It is unusual not to get a few other editors making comments on the talk page so I would wait a couple of days for more feedback before updating to the new agreed version of this section. I hope you continue editing on Wikipedia.Granitethighs 23:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I like this addition to the article and agree with Granitethighs' tweaks. The only further change I would suggest would be to be more specific when referring to "the ecosystem." Ecosystems are usually thought of as the habitat that a number of species interact with e.g., a marsh, a forest. Thus there is not one ecosystem, but many. I suggest we replace "the ecosystem" with "local ecosystems..." Otherwise, great. Sunray (talk) 07:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Also see Ecosystem services. 99.181.155.158 (talk) 04:03, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Cultural dimension

Agenda 21 - adding an additional "dimension" needs discussion on this page as it is contentious and will require alterations within the rest of the text. Perhaps you could insert the text you would like in the article on this talk page and allow editors to comment on its introduction to the main article? You might also consider estabishing a user page to aid communication.Granitethighs 22:28, 11 May 2011 (UTC)