User talk:Jimbo Wales

Ugliness of your idea saying that everybody can contribute - 'discussion' about Holocaust

Encyclopedia of the Holocaust

A joint and most comprehensive Holocaust project of more than 200 scholars which International Editorial Board counted 24 world-renown scholars - a four volume book of 1904 pages collecting and desciribing all aspects of the Holocaust: events, places, actions, people involved in. This book is a reference book quoted and cited by scholars

Definition of the Holocaust on XVII page, Vol 1

... the Holocaust - here defined as the Third Reich's attempt during the period of Nazi power (1933-1945), to physically destroy the Jews of Europe - from the antecedents to its postwar consequences

Concentration camps entry is on pages 308-316, Vol. 1: The camps were subdivided into labor camps (Arbetslager), transit camps(durhgangslager), prisoner of war camps (Kriegsfangenlager) and extermination camps (Vermachtungslager). A map of camps is given on page 308. On the map is visible: one (1) concentration camp in France, sixteen (16+1) in Germany + Prussia, 1 - Austria, 2 - Croatia, 7 - Poland 7, 1 - Lithuania, 1 - Latvia, 2 - Estonia Maly Trostenets near Minsk Byelorussia is not marked on the map but it is described on pages 940-1, Vol 3. by Shalom Cholakowski

There are no other extermination camps and sites as it was suggested in the template

Jasenovac entry on pages 739-740, Vol 3. by Menachem Shelach "The largest concentration and extermination camp in Independent State of Croatia"

Sajmiste entry on pages 1323-1324, Vol 4. by Christopher R. Browning - concentration (85% of Serbia's Jews) and extermination camp (killed by hunger, diseases and gassed in gas vans)

---

Statements in 'discussion' here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:The_Holocaust) containing explict or implicit Holocaust denial in Independent State of Croatia:

Rjecina: 'Jasenovac has been extermination camp (maybe even greatest non Holocaust camp), but there is agreement between Holocaust scholars that Jasenovac is not Holocaust extermination camp.

VirginSlim: We're dealing with an area of history that's in flux, that's the problem, with definitions of the Holocaust changing, with even the same scholarly sources using the term differently within the same book.

Nitsansh : Bottom line: I wouldn't consider Jasenovac as extermination camp, definitely not by Nazi definition

AniMate: in terms of the Holocaust there have always been six camps designated as extermination camps

EyeSerene: Rjecina, I do see a rough consensus on this talk page that the camps under dispute can be fairly described as extermination camps, although they may not fall under a strict definition of Holocaust camps. Therefore I think your additions to the template are supported.

Ricky81682: Agree with AniMate. At the Holocaust article, Jasenovac is mentioned mostly for the Southern Slavs killed, but here, it is being placed under the Jews. I think it could go under the "Other victims" subsection as an extermination camp there.

---

Bottom line: Going to expose these 'experts' in newspapers or/and with help of the Anti-Defamation League. Some of the 'notables' above are your administrators. --I am Mario (talk) 02:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo, I'll leave this to others, but this feels a lot like a threat, in violation of WP:NLT. I think I'm too involved. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo just so you know it, I am Mario was blocked just a few days ago for posting rants like this yet he keeps doing it apparently. EconomicsGuy (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I didn't mean it as "Jimbo, here's something you should do"-type thing so much as a "Jimbo and others, I'm curious about what to do with this user." The argument is at Template talk:The Holocaust where a number of different editors have been popping up all arguing based on the same source. I'm just particular concerned about the "I'm going to 'expose' people to newspapers and complain to the ADF by calling them anti-Semitic because they won't let me put my link at the top of Template:The Holocaust instead of down another section." That can't possibly be conducive to working together or remotely within the lines of civility. There's always WP:ARBMAC because I'm too involved to hand out discretionary sanctions. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I would simply argue for a focus on the fundamentals here. Assume Good Faith. Use reliable sources. No personal attacks. Try to make sure that what Wikipedia says is actually supported by the sources. Make sure that the sources used are generally considered high quality. Make sure that our view of the sources is not arbitrarily selective in order to paint a particular picture. For questions like this, questions surrounding the precise definition of the Holocaust, remember that emotions will be high and that there is a tendency for people to view people on the other side in an unfavorable light prematurely. If we do all of those things, then threats to "go to the press" or to complain to this or that pressure group will have little impact.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. I've been helping to keep an eye on the article since earlier edit-warring, and while I appreciate I am Mario's frustration at having his suggestion to include certain Ustaše-operated WWII camps as Holocaust camps rejected, unfortunately the talk-page consensus is against him on this one. A workable compromise has apparently been reached, with the camps included elsewhere in the template, so I don't think there's really much substance to this complaint (disclosure: I recently blocked I am Mario for disrupting the debate). EyeSerene^talk 13:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not know if this is right place for answer, but .... (I will add this on template talk page)

Yad Vashem is established by Israel parliament for commemorating the 6 milion Jews killed in Holocaust. In Yad Vashem Hall of Rememberence we are having names of 22 largest extermination camps [1], but even Yad Vashem is making clear difference between 6 greatest and others. This is possible to see on Yad Vashem FAQ about Holocaust [2] which is speaking only about 6 greatest camps: Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz. Similar situation is with USHMM [3]

Against this and all scholars (I can add more sources) which are making clear difference between this 6 camps and 16 other we are having user which is screaming: "There is 8 great camps (6 original + 2 Croatian)". It is interesting that 1 (Sajmište concentration camp) of this 2 camps on Croatian territory is not even between 22 largest camps on Yad Vashem list (see article. This data has never been disputed, but only sources which I can find are on croato-serbian language).--Rjecina (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Response to Mr. Wales

A butcher can do butchery - not surgery, even when strictlty adhering to Assume Good Faith. Use reliable sources. No personal attacks. Try to make sure that what Wikipedia says is actually supported by the sources. etc. If the butcher's 'knowledge' is complemented by the utter lack of editorial ethics (fasely referencing books, articles, editorial rules, calling opponents someone's puppets, then falsely accusing and blocking them) you'll see only political pornography - not history, in the Wikipedia's articles. As a consequence - Einstein is portrayed as an Ustashe (Croatian Nazi) supporter in 1930eth (Ustase article), and Jewish Holocaust survivors' testimonies attacked as POV (ugly Wikipedia term) and removed from the Holocaust era articles. All above will be two additional entries in my anti-defamation move against Wikipedia. Rjecina , Ricky81682, and EyeSerene 'discussions' and 'expertises' will be used as the primers of of the abovementioned pornography.--I am Mario (talk) 03:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Has David Gerard finally flipped?

Jimbo, you seem to know the person well so perhaps you might like to comment on DG's block of Giano. Is there a belief among certain long established account holders that writing quality articles is the basis of bad hand accounts, or is it simply that holding views contrary to some long established accounts sufficient? Oh, and DG stepping up as the enacting blocker might appear to some as inappropriate - given a past ArbCom where said admin was a party bitterly complained of and against Giano. All this right at the start of the ArbCom elections, too - is there not enough potential drama among the list of candidates and their reasons for standing? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it best that I not publicly comment at this time on the underlying issue. Perhaps I will in a few days, if it becomes necessary for some reason, but at the present time this all looks pretty routine to me. However, I will say that I doubt very much that you will find anyone who will argue or even suggest that Giano's quality contributions are the problem, and so the form of your question doesn't lend itself very well to a helpful answer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• "confirmed and reviewed by multiple checkusers" I want the name of every single one of these people and I want everyone of them fired. Giano (talk) 00:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, right, I want to be Judy Garland, but it ain't gonna happen. --Rodhullandemu 00:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Why would ya wanna be Judy Garland? She hasn't been too healthy since 1969. GoodDay (talk) 22:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Neither have I. --Rodhullandemu 22:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You want to be a starlet who was depressed, addicted to prescription drugs, divorced four times, attempted suicide on numerous occasions before finally dying at 47 of a drug overdose? Erik the Red 2 ~~~~ 02:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Stop going on about her good points, already! --Rodhullandemu 22:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, knowing this Arbcom's snse of justice you are probably right, but let's just see how many of the are brave enough to admit it first. Giano (talk) 00:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• The reasom given for checkusering me was that they there was similarities between Lady C's edits and those of a terrible banned editor. I have now checked those edits to claim any similarity is a blatent lie. There are no similarities what-so-ever. If it were not such an abuse of power, the encyclopedia would die laughing, if they knew which banned editor it was. Gerard should be fired instantly. Giano (talk) 18:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Giano, to forestall future drama and turmoil, would you commit to using only one account in the future? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I want to know what similarities there were between Lady C's edits and that of "???? ?????" When I am shown themm then we will look to the future, as long as Gerard is allowed to perform checkusers, and involve the gullible, to satisfy his own curiousity then none of are secure here, He has abused his powers and must go. He has been 100% dishonest. Giano (talk) 18:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Has Gerard been fired yet? or we taking this to another level? Giano (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Giano, why did you create that account in the first place? Did you really think that it was legitimate to run a sock account for ArbCom? It seems to me that David did the community a service by revealing a hoax. It would have been better if "Lady C" had never been created. Whose responsibility was that? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, come on! David did not reveal a hoax, he reconfirmed a hoax! It was clear, even to those who did not know it was Giano, that it was a sock account having a dig at the process. There was no need to do anything apart from have a quiet word via email, or even via the talk page. Use of checkuser and blocking tools was excessive. GTD 01:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:POINT. It's explicitly against the rules to disrupt Wikipedia in order to illustrate a point. If Giano wanted to make a point he should have written an essay. The blame for all of this is squarely on his shoulders. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, David Gerard's block of Giano was clearly more pointy as the alternate account was an open secret. There was no way, under any circumstances, that the alternate account would have been considered to be a serious ArbCom candidate. David Gerard's direct actions went against the spirit of Wikipedia GTD 01:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

An "open secret" is still a secret. "Lady C" was asked directly if she was a sock and denied it. Why run a sock of ArbCom, especially if there's no chance of winning? Why waste the time of folks who weren't in on the secret, leaving them wondering what the heck is going on? Things like that bring disrepute to the project, just like the last ArbCom member who pretended to be something he wasn't. Let's just write an encyclopedia and leave the made-up characters with funny voices to other websites. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your last sentence entirely. Let's leave that all to have their own fun elsewhere. Let's have legally-accountable, qualifications-verifiable, named users to create the best encyclopedia on the planet. That's what I want. But, until that happens, who's to say what jokes can and can't go on? GTD 02:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a social networking site, it isn't intended to be fun, though a little fun isn't a problem. But Giano stepped over the line in running an undisclosed sock for ArbCom. Posting an Aprils Fools hoax on April 1 is one thing. Posting a similar hoax on other occasions is another matter. And getting upset when that hoax is deleted just shows no sense of humor at all. Giano had his laugh now let's move on with the purpose of this project. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

So you'll join me in banning all minors and demanding all remaining editors use their own names, post their addresses and credentials? Great! Deal! GTD 02:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The obvious reply: Will Beback is a real name. Is George the Dragon a real name? Durova^Charge! 02:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

no biggie, but isn't Will Beback a pun / pseudonym? - If not then the Beback parents were kinda cruel, to be honest! Privatemusings (talk) 02:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Joke or not, I haven't seen Will demand other editors relinquish their privacy. The gracious thing is to show as much or more respect for the privacy of other people than one attempts to requisition for oneself. With a name like Privatemusings, that sort of explanation shouldn't be necessary. Durova^Charge! 02:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

[Outdent] George, there's a big difference between requiring proven identities and allowing disruptive socks. If you think that socks should be allowed to run for ArbCom or admin or should be allowed for banned users, then I encourage you to answer the questions about those matter on your ArbCom candidacy page. Some of us spend a lot of time trying to get rid of disruptive socks. I don't think it's very funny when a supposedly good editor uses one to mess with the system and then throws a hissy fit when it's blocked. If it's a joke account then there's no need to mourn its loss, and there's certainly no reason to form a mob to attack the responsible person who brought the hoax to a close. David Gerard did the right thing (albeit in a clumsy way) and harmed no one's privacy in the process. Now let's get back to writing the encyclopedia. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

No, we won't untill gerard is prevented from doing this again - it goes on. He has no right too invade privacy, none at all. What next excuse? He had to be fired. Oh yeah, and let's have a diff for: " "Lady C" was asked directly if she was a sock and denied it." Giano (talk) 07:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll give you two:

Major Bonkers: "Aren't you a sockpuppet?"

Catherine de Burgh: "No, no, barking up the wrong tree there."

Major Bonkers: "Aren't you still a sockpuppet?"

Catherine de Burgh: "I'm certainly not a Sockpocket."

But then again, we already know that you are not adverse to peddling the odd mistruth two when it suits you, isn't that right Giano? Rockpocket 18:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• [4] and here is one for you Rockpocket. You see Jimbo and the Arbcom have been terrified I had an admin account and had breached IRC Security, that is what I expect half of this is all about, any excuse to find out, and why gerard has not been punished, he was trying to do them a favour. I don't have a sock Admin account, I never have and I never will, for the reasons given in that diff. Giano (talk) 18:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Giano, you asked for diffs about when you denied running a sock account. Rockpocket provided two and here's a third.[5] I've asked you repeatedly to either disclose your other sock accounts or to stop using them. Nothing good comes from this deception. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There are no others. That is a sterile line of inquiry. Thatcher 20:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Beback, you are a very very sad man, I pity you, truly I do. Without humour one may as well be dead, and we are an awfully long time dead, I know one should never laugh at one's own jokes, so I won't, but was there a deal of harm? For some leather bound tool of the arbcom to come in hot and viscious pursuit - No, I think not - and so do most of the "normal" editors' - it's a hoot, get real, get over it. Giano (talk) 20:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Please don't make personal attacks on your colleagues. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Beback, are you seriously suugesting you and Gerard are colleagues? You're not, no one would regard you as such - what an amazing notion, where can you posibly have obtained it? Giano (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

For what its worth, I would think it would be patently obvious that you would never try something like that, since it would only be a matter of time before that was revealed. The point is though Giano, and I appreciate it may not feel like it sometimes, but 99% of those people who edit Wikipedia do not read your talk page and do not follow your wiki-career. That includes a good number of admins and CUs. I do, and I still missed that edit. Therefore its unreasonable to expect that everyone is familiar with all the twists and turns of Giano's wiki-activities. Whether your accusations are true or not, I don't know. But by using CdB in the manner you did, it was only a matter of time before you were CU'd by someone not in on the elaborate joke. You have a right to be upset about being blocked, but your outrage over being checkusered is misplaced. Even if it was done with ulterior motives, you set yourself up by using CdB without being completely open about who she is. I, too, operate an undisclosed sockpuppet account (albeit one that is scrupulously clean and policy compliant), but if someone has any suspicion over it, I would expect to be CU'd. Big deal. If you don't want to risk that, then don't use multiple accounts. Rockpocket 19:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This problem with Gerard should have been handled long ago. In fact, I was going to use him as an example in a question to all candidates (but that page seems to be protected now). So, in the light of the current arbcom elections, let me ask it here;

Imagine a powerful administrator who wants to silence some political opposition. He enters into an edit war on a Wikipedia project page and censors all criticism of his pet cause. He then protects the page on his version and even threatens to move it to Meta where he can more effectively control the content. The criticism he removed was civil and came from administrators and long time contributors.

It goes to the arbcom and parties present their cases in the usual way, except this admin who presents his case behind closed doors, in complete secrecy. None of the other parties can see or respond to what he says. Furthermore, he's on the arbcom mailing list by virtue of his previous arbitratorship, and is therefore 'in the room' as the arbitrators discuss and decide the case.

He walks away with no consequences for his behavior.

What do you all think about this? Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/IRC ?

--Duk 17:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You can still ask questions individually of any or all potential arbitrators. WilyD 17:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In hind sight I think It's more effective to ask in places where it will actually be read by more than just the candidate. --Duk 17:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Hell ya! secrecy and censorship, that's the way to run a project like this. --Duk 18:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, otherwise people miss things like J Forrester refusing to answer if he will accept an appointment from Jimbo against the will of the people! Good job no constitutional monarch would ever offer such a position. Tough luck James. Giano (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Monarchs have absolute power until they actually try to use it. Pissing off the nobles or the peasants will eventually be any monarch's downfall. Thatcher 20:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

All this Giano VS ArbCom stuff is entertaining; distracting, but entertaining. Thank goodness the Lady C account is deleted. GoodDay (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Oops, it's not deleted. I spoke too soon. GoodDay (talk) 23:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• • So, David Gerard has not finally flipped? Which, given that he knew that Giano and CdB were the same editor some 2 years (should I say here that I didn't know? but then I didn't care who CdB was as long as I didn't have to deal with "her") means that the purpose of the CU was to see if Giano - "exposed" through the CdB connection - was operating a vandal account. No wonder DG blocked both with exceedingly poor rationales; the disappointment must have been excruciating... I truly believe, Jimbo, that some of those entrusted with responsibilities from the earlier days of this project do need reviewing to see if their use of those abilities are in tune with the standards expected in the situations we now find ourselves in. Some people are adaptable and realise that status necessarily changes as situations change, and some are not and are less capable of serving the purpose in the manner in which they were originally entrusted. There is no mechanism to remove these people from the offices bestowed upon them - except by appeal to those who presented them with such powers and still have the ability to remove them. Perhaps it is time, as sometimes can happen to admins and is happening to some members of ArbCom, that CU's are required after some period of service to demonstrate that their use of the tools has the confidence of the community and their colleagues? The trust required of sysops, bureaucrat, and ArbCom members from the community is understood, because of the potential damage those positions may cause; perhaps it is more so for CU's - as events may have demonstrated here. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
    • All those words about the importance of trust in the ArbCom, etc., would make more sense if this weren't a case in which a sockpuppet had been nominated for ArbCom. How would having a lying sock on the ArbCom help build the community's trust? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Lying? You mean she wasn't married four times, proposed to by Mussolini, and the daughter of Phimosis Bonkbuster? 86.44.30.104 (talk) 03:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
        • I mean that the editor, speaking through the sock account, repeatedly denied that the account was a sock. Again, how did running this account for ArbCom serve to help build trust for the ArbCom and other community institutions? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Nope not at all, not only had I announced here she was running [6] but also the Arbs with Arbs - so you and Gerard donot have a leg to stand on. He needs to be fired, and I wil not be deflected in this. he cannot treat people like this, and he willnot Giano (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

[e/c] Giano, I don't know why you chose to lie about being a sock, but you did. I don't know why you chose to run that sock for ArbCom, but you did. The sock was not disclosed to the community, and you used it disruptively. You used it to add derogatory material to a BLP among other things. You were caught and the sock was blocked. You were the one at fault. You have no cause for being mad at those who ended the charade. Get over it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I admit to being bewildered by this. It was obvious that Lady Catherine was an ironic sockpuppet. It was obvious to anyone who looked at the contribs for more than a few seconds that it was Giano. (Who else can write like that? And indeed, who else would lavish such praise on him?) In any event, David G knew that it was Giano. So why was there a need to checkuser and block? Why not just get someone neutral to drop him an e-mail saying the joke has gone far enough, if someone thought it had, though for my own part, it was the only thing on Wikipedia or anywhere else at the moment that was able to make me laugh out loud. I'm going to miss her. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 07:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

SV, Giano could easily have acknowledged the sock without ruining the joke. He didn't need to run it for ArbCom, or use it to make inappropriate edits in order to be funny. Jokes are one thing, but this went too far. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

You are still not getting it are you, or don't you want to get it. It was not a secret [7], and Gerard knew it was not a secret. He must not be allowed to abuse his wrongly given powers in this way, on any one else in futire. Giano (talk) 08:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Giano, that "disclosure" didn't include the name of the sock, and it wasn't posted on the sock's user page, Only someone who already knew the sock was yours would have been able to find that posting and have known to whom it referred. And it was archived about 10 days later, so even someone with that information couldn't have found it by mid-October. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Will on this one. What is this adding to the encyclopedia, one has to ask. --John (talk) 07:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Will and John, putting aside whether the joke had gone too far, or whether the contribs were helpful, the person who blocked already knew that Lady C was Giano. So the question is: why the checkuser? SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 08:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, any admin who thinks they can simply block Giano, even for obvious policy or probation violations, isn't aware of history. But that doesn't excuse Giano's behavior, or permit him to go on a vengeance trip, or grant him leave to violate his civilty probation (which he's now doing). As for what David Gerard knew and when, we haven't heard it from him. I know that I deal with so many socks and problem editors that I sometimes have trouble remembering them six months later. Even if DG identified the sock, it doesn't follow that he necessarily remembered it two years later. Can you remember the identity of every sock you investigated two years ago? Giano seems to be of the opinion that all Wikipedia editors and admins have his talk page watchlisted and follow his every move and utterance. I had no awareness of "Lady C" until it was placed into the running for ArbCom. At that point, there was no way, short of spending an hour sleuthing, that I would have found it was a sock of Giano. I understand you're sensitive about checkusers, but I still say that people who use undisclosed socks in a disruptive manner should expect to be checkusered and to have the socks blocked. That is why we have checkusers in the first place. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

so are you calling sir Fozzie a liar too [8]. Giano (talk) 09:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I certainly am not calling Sir Fozzie a liar. If Gerard has explained his knowledge of this matter I haven't seen it, but this drama has been spread around to many, many pages. But even if Gerard knew or suspected that the account was yours, the mere fact that he'd found a sock running for ArbCom was enough evidence of bad faith to proceed to a checkuser. Socks should not be on the ArbCom. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I do hope there aren't already! Giano (talk) 10:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Granted, your point about socks in general, but checkusers do keep notes about who they've checked and what the results were, so they don't have to remember everything or repeat checks. They're also on the CU mailing list, and can ask around there. I just find it odd that what happened instead was that three CUs had to check Giano/Lady C, after the accounts had been checked already by at least one of the same CUs, plus lots of conferring and consultation, and e-mails to Jimbo and ArbCom and god knows who else, to deal with what was an obvious and hilarious ironic sock being operated by one of WP's best writers. It all seems a bit po-faced and unnecessary, at best. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 09:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Clearly there were some mistakes in how this went down. If Giano hadn't created the fake account, if he'd disclosed it on the sock's userpage or made it transparent, if his selected notifications had been more widespread, if folks had waited another 24 hours, or if everyone were on IRC, then things would have been different. I suggest that Giano should submit a complaint with the Ombudsman committee rather than demanding revenge across a half dozen pages. Let's try to minimize the drama here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The Ombudsman committee (basically Mackensen and Rebecca) is not allowed to look into alleged checkuser misuse, only privacy policy violations. That's the problem with this situation. The CUs police themselves, or rather, don't. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 00:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that. Perhaps it's time to see about addressing that problem. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:51, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I've been trying to get it changed since 2006. I've tried via the Foundation, the ArbCom, and the CU mailing list, but the CUs don't want any restrictions. They currently ignore the Foundation's CU policy, and they check as they see fit, for good reasons, bad reasons, and no reasons. Jimbo openly supports random checks, so there is no one to tell them to stop. The ArbCom and CU list are almost entirely overlapping, so there is no one independent to complain to. In addition, one of the Ombudsmen is Mackensen, who is heavily involved in IRC, where much of the nonsense originates.

The Foundation apparently won't let the Ombudsmen enforce the CU policy. When I last broached this with Anthere, when she was chair, she told me she'd had many complaints about checkuser misuse from the English Wikipedia and several others, and she took the issue to the CU mailing list to find out whether the Ombudsmen should start to look into CU policy violations too. She was told that the Ombudsmen themselves don't want that — as I recall, that was the view of Mackensen, and in my view it's prompted entirely by Mackensen not wanting any further restrictions on CU use.

What we need are Ombudsmen who have zero involvement with IRC, who aren't buddies of the people they might be asked to investigate, and who are given checkuser access only in order to investigate complaints, rather than being active CUs themselves. They need to feel no loyalty to the CUs, or to the complainants, so that they can look at the facts without prejudice or political pressure. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 01:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• SlimVirgin, please check your facts. I ran the check at the request of Avraham; neither of us was aware of the joke at the time. I asked Lady C. on her talk page to contact me, and "she" brushed me off. I then emailed a small number of people who I thought were likely to know whether or not this was in fact an open secret. I did not email "Arbcom and God knows who else" precisely because I was trying to be careful and discreet. Thatcher 11:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Can you say how often and when you've checkusered CdB?

According to various posts of yours, you did indeed e-mail lots of people about it, or consult them in some other way. My point about this giant fuss that it's incredibly self-important, and it's this taking of yourself so seriously that triggers the authoritarian, bureaucratic, humourless, irony-free, heavy-handed reaction. I'm reminded of the characters in Solzhenitsyn's novels.

Also, Thatcher, please don't refer to me again in your posts, no matter how obliquely. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 00:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

What? I don't believe I have referred to you directly or obliquely or in any other way in months. As far as Catherine de Burgh is concerned, I checked the account in June under circumstances I discussed on the RFAR page as well as the AN subpage, but her edits were too stale so no results were returned even though the request was logged. I checked again a couple of days ago, and emailed Brad, Jimbo, Avi and David Gerard for consultation. Thatcher 07:22, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

This is going around in circles and I have better things to do, than argue the obvious with you. Obviously, you feel Gerard's behaviour and lies and intmidation can be condoned and excused. Thankfully, 100s of others do not. Hopefully, Jimbo will take this on board. The Ombudsmean is appointd by the foundation, so hardly inspires confidence, probably another friend of Gerards. Now, I have better things to do with my time than tit-for-tat with you. I shall not be returning to this page - you just keep on with the excuses for him. Giano (talk) 10:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the fault lies with you more than with Gerard. That doesn't mean there isn't fault on his side too. The ArbCom is taking the right approach to this complaint by rejecting it. Let's just move on already. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Those interested may refer to my (and other arbitrators') comments on the (now-archived) request for arbitration. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The inability or unwillingness of the ArbCom to craft an enforceable civility probation is one of the problems here. The tacit approval of those ArbCom members who knew a sock account was running for ArbCom is disappointing as well. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we're to blame for the actions of other editors. Also, for the record, I had absolutely no idea that account even existed before all this happened, never mind aware of it being anybody's sockpuppet. --Deskana (talk) 04:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The economy really sucks...case anyone didn't notice.--MONGO 04:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

whoa!!

YOu created wikipedia!!! AWESOME!! So you know everything about my account!!??--Spittlespat 00:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• ...the temptation to reply is almost too great........Giano (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Also please drop a message on my talk page!!--Spittlespat 00:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This evening, when I made myself some pasta, I actually said to myself "Whoa, I created dinner! Awsome!". Shnitzled (talk) 16:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

 :) —La Pianista ^(T•C•S) 23:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The control of Wikipedia

Jimbo, I should start by admitting I am a journalist, but I still feel i can contribute and do that simultaneously. But, ignoring that, history has shown that when communities outgrow their leaders they move on and elect their new leaders. As the so-called Constitutional Monarch of Wikipedia, do you feel the project has reached that stage yet? Are you fully in-tune with everything that goes on? Every policy change, every essay, every guideline, every ArbCom decision? If not, will you not consider stepping down from your monarchical role before you suffer the same fate as King George III?

"Such has been the patient sufferance of this project; and such is now the necessity which constrains the community to alter their former Systems of Government"

In short, Jimbo, it's time for this all to change. The Wikipedia community has outgrown you. Please calmly abdicate in the style of King Edward VIII before this starts to get even more messier GTD 01:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Edward VIII abdicated for a woman not to improve things for his country. Anyway, Lady C who wanted to be Jimbo's Queen consort has just died so there is no woman for him to abdicate for. Giano (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, but if Edward VIII hadn't stepped down when he did, there was the chance of a constitutional crisis which would have damaged his "realm". Churchill threatened to form a "pro-King" party, which would have de facto made His Majesty's Government the anti-King party! Best to go before things do become totally out of control and irreparable, in my view GTD 18:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I am establishing the "over/under" on this section's life-before-removal on Jimbo's talk page at 4 hours, 10 minutes. Your bets (plus a 10% vigorish) may be placed via PayPal to you-know-who. Minimum bet is $11 (to win $10). One-half of the total vig will be donated to the Wikimedia Foundation fund drive 2008. -- Kohszilla (talk) 02:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Edward VIII, was pushed into abdicating, because of his Nazi sympathies. Wallis was the cover story. GoodDay (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo has been and continues to be a great leader. Wikipedia has not outgrown him; to express otherwise is to claim ignorance of Wikipedia and his leadership role thereof. Jimbo has done a great job at Wikipedia. 63.3.15.129 (talk) 07:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There are many things you can accuse Kohs, Giano and GTD of, but "ignorance of Wikipedia and Jimbo's role in it" is, to say the least, not among them. – iridescent 19:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

What Wikipedia needs is for more and better leaders to step up to the plate and help lead; not for the few leaders we do have to stop helping. There is too little leadership going on, not too much. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If/when me & a friend of mine, meet JW. We'll give him a Wayne's World salute (we're not worthy, we're not worthy). GoodDay (talk) 22:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree that there's too little leadership going on, not too much; that said, I'd like for the community's leaders to be elected by the community, not inherited through tradition. Rule through tradition leaves little room for peaceful change. – Thomas H. Larsen 01:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

This communities' leaders are elected by the community, either formally (admin RFAs, Arbcom elections, just by being vocal involved community members with people agreeing with them). If a large number of people, or senior admins, or Arbcom members all in concert lost trust in Jimbo I doubt that he'd try to hold on to his current legacy special status.

It's an oft-asserted presumption that he has lost it. But actually demonstrating it would be easy - put it up for a poll somewhere and ask people. I posit (without testing my theory) that Jimbo has not lost community trust and any such poll will reaffirm that his status is supported.

Coming here and asserting that he's lost it is not arguing from a position of logical or informed community sense strength. Go do the poll, and come back with the results. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

SIMPLY EXCELLENT

Mankind will recall you forever for whatever you have done to the Mankind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sapdutta (talk • contribs) 16:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm quite sure it will. Thank you for sharing that with us. Giano (talk) 23:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Great of you to patronise an obvious non-native English speaker. Is that what you normally do? Because, to be honest, I'm beginning not to care too much. --Rodhullandemu 23:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Funny that, cos neither do I. Giano (talk) 23:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Simple answer: Go elsewhere. There must be a website somewhere that would tolerate arrogance. I'm not sure that this is such. --Rodhullandemu 23:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this exactly the place to find egos on the make. Let's face it most of them in charge don't do much elseGiano (talk) 23:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest both of you see the "level-headed" message at the top of this page. Please, avoid dispute. —Ceran ♦ (talk) 23:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain the following?

One of the articles in your encyclopedia, 4chan, returns a legal complaint from Google when searching for it about child pornography. I do not wish to place myself in danger, and I would suggest that action be taken over the 4chan article because this has serious ramifications to people who might stumble across it. Thank you.-GemPiety (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I mean, go to a google search and it says "In response to a legal request submitted to Google, we have removed 3 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read more about the request at ChillingEffects.org.". This must somehow be irresponsible.-GemPiety (talk) 02:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, the fact that this is supposedly a featured article, one of your 'best articles', concerns me greatly.-GemPiety (talk) 02:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

If you'd bothered to read the article, you'd see that pranks involving the posting of child pornography are a common feature of the 4chan website. --Carnildo (talk) 03:25, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sexualised Content

G'day Jimbo - I recall that you've commented on some of these issues in the past, so thought you might be interested to take a look at this nascent proposal... personally I'm a fan of us applying a bit more rigour in deciding how to handle sexualised images, and would love to hear your thoughts :-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I support an ongoing process of examining this type of content carefully, and also examining policy carefully. It is a difficult matter for two reasons: (1) this type of content is more frequently than some other types of content used for trolling, i.e. the classic case of someone uploading an image nicked from a porn site and claiming it to be a picture of themselves, just to see if they can get away with it and (2) this type of content is often subject to controversies relating to deletion, with some "radical free speech" people always pushing to keep it and "extremely conservative" people always pushing to delete it. I don't think either knee jerk reaction is helpful, and of course there are people who lean one way or the other and who are very helpful. Clearer guidelines are often helpful, but also can themselves become points of contention.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

a suggestion to improve Wikipedia's credibility

I wrote this up a couple years back, but it wasn't brought up for discussion. See User:Kowloonese#credibility.2C_quality_control_etc.

IMO, an expert's approval mechanism can bring credibility to an approved snapshot of wikipedia without affecting daily activity of the original wikipedia.

Let me know what you think about this idea.

Kowloonese (talk) 03:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at how flagged revisions works. I think you may find it interesting to integrate your proposal with the details of how that software works. In general, I support the notion of some kind of lightweight certification process, and especially things that can be tried without affecting daily activity.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Signature

How do I change my signature, because whenever I put what I want in my preferences it says "invalid html tags"? P.S. I want it to look like this Iamawesome800 THANKS!--Iamawesome800 (talk) 03:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Check the "raw signature" box. However, please also consider Wikipedia:SIG#Length and the last point of Wikipedia:SIG#Appearance and color. Daniel (talk) 03:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

So what would I have to change to get it to work?--Iamawesome800 (talk) 03:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Click the "Raw signature" checkbox and then put the code in the "Signature:" inputbox. Daniel (talk) 03:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

AIDS denialism Talk Page

Hi, Jimbo. Sorry to bring this up again, but on November 8, in regarding to the Talk:AIDS denialism that I previously brought up here, you said that a note should be placed in the discussion explaining what happened. Since User:MastCell was the one who archived that discussion, I didn't know if he should do it, or if I should, since I initiated a discussion on the matter. I left a message on his Talk Page about this, and when I received no response from him, I placed the note myself in that archived discussion. (I see now that MastCell indeed responded to me, but on his own Talk Page instead of my own.) RetroS1mone responded by deleting the note, with a clearly uncivil Edit Summary making disparaging comments about what I "understand" and accusing me of "promoting blp violations", leaving a message on my Talk Page saying that I "misunderstand" BLP, and began a discussion on the Admin Noticeboard, again making uncivil comments about what I don't "understand", claiming that you yourself "totaly said Nightscream was not understanding what censorship means what blp means". Did I misunderstand your instructions about the note, or is the note acceptable? Let me know. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 04:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I did not delete Nightscream's note, deletion is a thing only an oversite admin can do, I reverted, Nightscream's note is there in the history like the blp violations the banned IP number put in. BLP can not be clearer!! When someone says a person is a fraud or a person falsified documents, and you think there is no good source, you take it out w/o waiting on discussion. You want to put in a summary OK but that is not in the policy, it just says take it out. What happened on that talk page is obvious, Sheffield Steel and me have notes about blp problems where we edited the offensive stuff, Mast Cell closed the discussion with a note. Then Nightscream puts in new paragraph, a week later, linking to original blp problems. So people can see the false claims again.

Nightscream is going very far to defend a banned IP number and the blp allegations they put on WP, like Jimbo said it is "odd" Nightscream says following BLP policy is censorship. Sorry when I am blunt, "removed immediately and without waiting for discussion" is difficult interpreting, "should be restored if removed and linked to make it easy for people to read again and again," that is a mis-understanding, my opinion. Nightscream was warned about blp problems all ready, that is why I went to ani. RetroS1mone talk 13:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo, per this, can you just state explicitly that there should be no link to the potentially libelous edit so we can settle that part of this little tiff between him and S1mone? Daniel Case (talk) 22:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Courtesy notice

Your action in linking to an external blog here has been mentioned here as a precedent for allowing a user to link to a site which attacks a living person on their user page. I don't agree that the two situations are comparable, or that your actions automatically create a precedent. Anyway, I mentioned your name so thought you should be informed. Thanks for creating this great project, and best wishes. --John (talk) 07:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

señor YOU ARE a perro and you are very astuto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.8.166 (talk) 17:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Assyrian people

Hey there! I didn't know where else to go so I will make this quick as you are probably really busy.

From the beginning of the Assyrian people's article we've had problems with the ongoing nameconflict. Some identify as Syriacs other as Chaldeans or Assyrians. We have had this nameconflict going on for two long, for years. I want to ask you to move the page from Assyrian people to Assyrian/Syriac people and lock it if able. Thanks --Yohanun (talk) 17:40, 21 November 2008 (UT

Semi-Protected Articles

Hey, I was just wondering, how come I am not able to edit semi-protected articles on here. My acoount is over 2 weeks old and I still can not edit these articles. Please get back to me as quickly as possible. Thanks --NathanielMondragon (talk) 05:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Responded at user's talk page. Graham87 07:58, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Mentioned you

I have mentioned you here. Feel free to return fire. :-) Jehochman ^Talk 12:29, 22 November 2008 (UTC)