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2018 November

Jaggi Vasudev

[Closer] did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because he repeated the vastly refuted points in closing this requested move.

I have edited the talk page but not the requested move discussion because it seemed that the page was obviously going to be moved. However this outcome was not expected.

Two points have been made by the closure[1]:

1. "independent reliable sources – i.e. those not written by innerengineering, etc – typically write out the subject's name": Absolutely incorrect because this month alone, the "independent reliable sources" referred him as Sadhguru.[2][3][4][5] We cannot find any reliable English sources that referred him as "Jaggi Vasudev" in the story's title during this month or the even the previous month. Overall, search hits "Sadhguru" (80 million) are many much higher compared to "Jaggi Vasudev" (7 million).

2. "No real argument has been made here that there is some reason why this article should go against the the manual of style entry" : See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. There is a clear absence of any other "Sadhguru" than this individual. No one else is referred as "Sadhguru", except this individual. No reliable sources have used "Sadhguru" and "Satguru" as interchangeable terms so far. The argument of "honorific" was completely WP:OR and misleading. If there was really any honorific called "Sadhguru" then we should seeing other any notable individual being referred as "Sadhguru".

That was about the strength of policy related argument. Overall there were 14 editors (including uninvolved ones like Marcocapelle, Amakuru, Arbor to SJ) who clearly supported the move, while there were only 6 editors (all deeply involved in the subject area) who opposed the move. The difference between oppose and support count is high. It can be said that mass badgering by a couple of opposing editors must have discouraged many potential support votes.

I was thinking that I should wait for the reply from the closer, but it seemed that it would be fair to start a discussion here since the closer's contribution history is sporadic (50 edits since 30 November 2017). Qualitist (talk) 10:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse (talk page watcher) (who participated in the RM) The closer has done an excellent job of articulating the community consensus for a discussion that was open for more than 5 weeks.

FYI, Since it has been pointed, Some very reliable English + Hindi sources that referred him as "Jaggi Vasudev" in the story's title

Jaggi Vasudev’s interaction with FTII Pune students cancelled indianexpress
Jaggi Vasudev gives fitness challenge to Rajinikanth timesofindia
अब जग्गी वासुदेव का स्टरलाइट का समर्थन navbharattimes
Ranveer Singh to be seen in conversation with Jaggi Vasudev at IIM-B firstpost
River inter-linking must be scientific, not political: Jaggi Vasudev economictimes
अब जग्गी वासुदेव भी देंगे बीएसएफ को योग का प्रशिक्षण amarujala
Jaggi Vasudev joins Baba Ramdev in support of Sterlite indianexpress
Jaggi Vasudev, out on Youth and Truth tour, will speak in JNU telegraph
'No one should talk about unemployment in India': Jaggi Vasudev says problem arises due to preference for certain jobs firstpost
From Baba Ramdev to Jaggi Vasudev, BSF’s yoga quest changes direction indianexpress
I can go on but you get the idea.

Funny to read that every editor opposing this person's POV is "heavily involved", their factual evidence based comment are OR and everyone supporting is "uninvolved". As for me I am a Page Mover and regularly participate in RM discussions and WP:RMT, also I have never edited that page before this RM discussion. But hey, why let facts come in front of a good story. --DBig Xrayᗙ 11:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All these sources are not recent but from 2 years, and each of them are at least 3 months old. Since this is all you could discover from 2017 - present, this was indeed my point that "Jaggi Vasudev" is not the common name. Here I presented reliable sources from this month alone that use "Sadhguru" as the story's title, while no one has used "Jaggi Vasudev" from this month or even the previous month. Hindi sources (which are way higher for "Sadhguru") are irrelevant since this is an English Wikipedia. By saying "deeply involved" I was saying that you edit this subject (India as a whole) too frequently, and in fact you have strong feelings about this individual, as shown by your own edits to the article.[6][7] This is not a requested move discussion round second, so it would be more better if you focus on the closer. Qualitist (talk) 12:06, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

talking about the dates and 2 years.

--DBig Xrayᗙ 12:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your last two sources("22 Nov 2018", "8 Nov 2018") only makes a passing mention and that is not what I was referring. I was talking about "story's title", because "Jaggi Vasudev" is not used as a title of the story by any reliable source, not only this month but also the previous month. Why Wikipedia should use a less common name? It looks like you are now badgering this move review just like you badgered entire RM since you are working to make your petty comment look longer than it is. You made your comments on RM and here, now let uninvolved editors judge. Qualitist (talk) 12:41, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

notes from closer—couple comments:
- did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because he repeated the vastly refuted points in closing this requested move. – I don't understand this statement; if I'm doing something wrong please let me know.
- Absolutely incorrect because this month alone, the "independent reliable sources" referred him as Sadhguru... All 4 sources you listed do spell out his name. That is all I said. (And one of them is not independent.)
- PRIMARYTOPIC doesn't say "use a title if the subject is the primary topic for the phrase" – e.g. President Obama is not the title of that page. (Also that note doesn't address what I said: no argument is given for going against WP:HONORIFIC.)
- re. Honorifics: there is a strange claim here and in the rm that Sadhguru is not an honorific. Aside from whether this question has anything to do with how the article should be titled, this is just plain false: it is an honorific; it's an alternate spelling of Satguru. Am I missing something? Is like a nickname or something, having nothing to do with Satguru? Why do people keep saying it is not an honorific? Indian honorifics – should we fix that?
- It is not a vote.
Thanks! ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arent we supposed to discuss the page move? If so, then we should rather focus on name used as title as well as the most common name reliable sources have used to mostly refer the subject which is "Sadhguru". Not all 4 sources spell out the name because India Post made no mention of "Jaggi Vasudev". Even if the page was moved, we won't be omitting mention of his real name but only using title as "Sadhguru" like majority of reliable sources. Do reliable sources refer him as "Sadhguru" or "Jaggi Vasudev" when it comes to more common name? Answer is Sadhguru. Mention of "Satguru" is completely an irrelevant WP:OR since no reliable sources call this individual a "Satguru". Which reliable sources call him "satguru" and which reliable sources use "satguru" and "sadhguru" as interchangeable terms? None. Obviously page move is not a vote, but when minority has made no sensible argument then we really need to consider that there wqs no impact of unconvincing argument. Qualitist (talk) 17:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not all 4 sources spell out the name – ah, right – that one is the non-independent one. I think the rest has been addressed: it's independent sources we're looking at. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So first you misrepresent sources then call independented sources "non-independent"? So far how many recent sources have you discovered which use "Jaggi Vasudev" as title? I am still waiting. Qualitist (talk) 23:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn and rename. To me, this is a close one between "no consensus" and "moved", but certainly not a consensus to not move, as the close suggests. Should disclose that I am an uninvolved relister, and that I have been interested in meditation subjects since the 70s. So I am familiar with this person's lectures, and yet I've only known him as "Sadhguru" until I relisted this RM. At least on the circuits I travel, he is commonly known by that name. While it is likely that the name "Sadhguru" began as an honorific for this individual, many sources have been shown to indicate that it has become a common name for him. And so far as can be determined, as another spelling of "Satguru", that particular spelling, "Sadhguru", has only been reserved for this individual. Therefore, the supporters' args with policy (WP:COMMONNAME) seem to outweigh the opposers' guideline args (WP:HONORIFIC) in this case. Not in any sense trying to reargue the RM here, just explaining my reasons why the close of this RM should be rethought. [page move logs] Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 18:00, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it was noted in the RM that people who interact with him primarily by consuming his services would know him as "Sadhguru". Of course, as a closer I would not count that for much vs. "hey all these independent reliable sources use his name instead". BTW I can live with "Hey Erik you should have closed it as 'no consensus'" – in that case we leave it where it is (and where it had been for years before the moves). It was certainly not the most firm consensus I've seen. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response. The thing is, I can't in good conscience live with a "no consensus" close, although that would mean that a follow-up non-out-of-process RM could happen sooner rather than later. The arguments for COMMONNAME still seem to outweigh anything from the opposition, so it still seems to me that the move request should have been granted. Forgive me, as I fail to see how you could have concluded that there was in any way a consensus to not move. What may be needed here from you is a detailed, explicit explanation of how you came to that conclusion. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 04:11, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Paine Ellsworth, it is very heavy of you to put your life and conscience on the line over this move review. Are you sure you are a dispassionate reviewer here? What would the sadhguru advise with respect to this disagreement? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn what a mess. There are basically only two arguments presented. The main argument supporting a title of Sadhguru is that it is the WP:COMMONNAME for this person, and that this person is the primary topic for this spelling. Nobody seems to dispute that the person is often referred to this way, and this spelling (as opposed to Satguru) appears to primarily refer to this person. The argument supporting a title of Jaggi Vasudev is that Sadhguru is an religious honorific and cannot be used. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)#Titles and honorifics is clear that Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev would not be an acceptable title, but doesn't seem to forbid a stand-alone title being a common name.
While they're not quite fair comparisons, we have both Saint Peter and 14th Dalai Lama as titles of articles, suggesting that there's no site-wide rule against religious titles in article titles. Articles are titled Jesus and Muhammed (and more recently Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and Menachem Mendel Schneerson, but Sadhguru appears to be a title more akin to "Saint" than "Messiah", I don't see an inherent NPOV issue in using that title. Overall, the arguments for Sadhguru are stronger, and there's a 2-1 numerical majority supporting that position. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Notes: No! As noted in my close, another argument was that Sadhguru is *not* the common name in independent sources, and Jaggi Vasudev is. site-wide rule – WP:OTHERSTUFF. Also: wp:NOTAVOTE applies, especially with a number of SPAs. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Apparent misleading POV pushing doesnt count as sensible "argument". It is completely absurd to claim that "Sadhguru" is not the more common name. All 6 opposes came from those who are deeply involved in the subject. OSE don't apply here. Qualitist (talk) 23:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Qualitist: - please stop trying to WP:BLUDGEON this discussion. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:29, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ErikHaugen: It seems fairly easy through Google search to verify that this person is the PRIMARYTOPIC for the spelling "Sadhguru". There's no easy way to verify whether this is the COMMONNAME. I noticed after my first comment that at least one of the editors advocating for this change has been site-banned, and highly recommend any commenters read the ENTIRE talk page and not just the RM section. Overall, "consensus" seemed to be that newspapers calling him Sadhguru in a title and then Jaggi Vasudev in the article doesn't mean that the common name can't be Sadhguru; I don't see "independent sources" mentioned anywhere other than the close. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:29, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse. My reading of the discussion is "no consensus" tending to "consensus to not move". The closer's call is within admin discretion. I think "consensus to move" is definitely not a correct reading. In support of not moving, with no or poor consensus, no one made a case that the status quo has a real problem and that something urgently needed doing. The page should be left at the long term stable title, as it was before User:Anthony Appleyard's 04:17, 6 August 2018 move on the basis of ghits. This is a case for: Wait six months at least, and if you still feel that the community got the decision wrong, start a fresh proposal with a better rationale that covers all the unresolved issues in the discussion of Talk:Jaggi_Vasudev#Requested_move_20_October_2018. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think I didnt came here to verify if the action was within admin discretion or not, since page moves needs no admin actions either. It is to verify if the closer was done properly or not, and it was completely improper since the closing editor inaccurately claims that "Satguru" is the alternative name for "Sadhguru" without providing a single source and thinks that passing mention equates to use of the term as page title per their comment here. Closer seems nothing more than a supervote at this stage. We are not here for righting great wrongs. Qualitist (talk) 23:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Admins are vetted at RfA on their experience and ability to recognize consensus, and they deserve that little bit more respect in calling a rough consensus. If this were a WP:NAC I would not be giving a happy comment. "Satguru"/"Sadguru"/"Sadhguru" are all interchangeable close-enough homophone transliterations. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:13, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Being an admin gives you no special privelege in closer. Which reliable source calls "Jaggi Vasudev" a "Satguru" or "Sadguru"? They all call him "Sadhguru". This is exactly what I said, that the argument for "oppose" was petty and misleading. Qualitist (talk) 00:17, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Being an admin gives a special privilege in calling a rough consensus on a controversial discussion. See WP:NAC. Calling a rough consensus is a fairly advanced skill, mixed with a fair bit of arbitrary discretion. Which reliable source calls "Jaggi Vasudev" a "Satguru" or "Sadguru"? I'm talking from my reading of the discussion and google searches, particularly google image searches. They all return the same pictures. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Being an admin gives you no special privelege to right great wrongs. I didnt asked for Google images but "reliable source" (see WP:RS), which in fact you are misrepresenting because "Sadhguru" shows images of this individual, while "Satguru" shows more images of Guru Nanak and few others. Qualitist (talk) 01:13, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Right great wrongs? What is the great wrong? I don't think the discussion includes a clear distinction between "Sadhguru" and "Satguru", but if you feel there is one, and that it is important, make the case more clearly in a fresh RM in six months. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:57, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My reading of the discussion is "no consensus" tending to "consensus to not move".

Yes, I can see a possible case for no consensus; however, please explain how the policy of COMMONNAME, for which I think a very strong case has been made in this RM, can be overwhelmed by the guideline of HONORIFIC? The closer has not yet been able to explain this, so perhaps you can?

...if you still feel that the community got the decision wrong...

Actually, it seems to me that the community got the decision right; it was the close that was not synched to the community's decision.

If this were a WP:NAC I would not be giving a happy comment.

Which seems to make the case that the close is even worse having been made by someone who should have known better?

"Satguru"/"Sadguru"/"Sadhguru" are all interchangeable close-enough homophone transliterations.

Not to compare a mere guru with a deity, however the two terms "god" and "God" sound exactly the same, and yet they have very different meanings, don't they? Countless such examples exist. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 05:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another note from closer – I gave more weight to WP:HONORIFIC/WP:UCRN (e.g. Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)) than to the vote count. I'm a believer in WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. If Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, Jaggi Vasudev, and Sadhguru are used more or less uniformly across independent sources, then the argument was made that you go with Jaggi Vasudev. Evidence was supplied, no coherent rebuttal seemed to get much support, etc. That's how I think closes should be done. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yet you have failed to find a single source from this month or past month which use "Jaggi Vasudev" as the title of the story. Evidence doesn't means misrepresenting search result and badgering to right great wrongs. Thats what all 6 opposing editors did who are deeply involved in the subject. 6 oppose against 14 support after mass badgering is opposite to your assertion that rebuttal didnt "seemed to get much support, etc."(what "etc."?) Qualitist (talk) 00:00, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn and rename to the proposed title. The two arguments seemed very weak and made up against WP:COMMONNAME. Inaccuracies within oppose votes also show that they agreed that "Sadhguru" is more common name but falsely claimed it as a honorific despite the name is used only for this very particular subject. Use of Hindi language sources to counter arguments favoring English wiki naming convention seemed like grasping at straws and lack of policy based argument by opposes. Overall the oppose' argument was incoherent and unconvinving. The difference between support and oppose count also speaks volumes. Rzvas (talk) 00:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cars

Closing editor was not aware of community consensus because requesting editor did not notify affected or interested projects/articles.

The closing on 22 Oct was based on the input of just four editors. No article or project notifications were posted. I became aware of this when a discussion was opened at Project:Automobiles.[[8]] Based on that discussion it was clear that the project members were not aware of this change and support was lacking.

To initially challenge the closing as well as to show the level of community support for the change I opened up a discussion asking about moving the category name back from Cars to Automobiles on 26 Oct [[9]]. This discussion opened with a discussion of the previously closed move so the context was clear. Notifications were posted at Talk:Car, Category:Cars, Project:Automobiles and Project:Transport. With about 20 editors responding the breakdown was about evenly split and a no-consensus closing. If the original discussion had notified the wider community it's clear there would not have been consensus for the move. I'm requesting the closing be reversed (or seen as no consensus based on the second discussion with wider participation) and the category name reverted to what it had been since being established in 2006.

I suspect I didn't follow the correct procedures throughout this challenge this but I've never previously challenged a closing much less a category move closing so please for give procedural errors here. Springee (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy close – MR does not deal with categories, only RMs. Move to WP:DRV. In any case, this is WP:FORUMSHOPPING. We just had a second CfD, which determined that there was no consensus to move the 'cars' category to 'automobiles'. RGloucester — ☎ 22:00, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed on the MR talk page. It is here based on the feedback of uninvolved editors. Springee (talk) 22:04, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please follow the procedures set down by each page. CfDs are reviewed at WP:DRV. WP:MR is for WP:RMs. RGloucester — ☎ 22:05, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of procedures, per wp:refactor adding content to a post after someone replies should be done carefully. Your edit here [[10]] added an accusation of bad faith that I would have replied to had it been part of the text when I posted. You should also disclose that you are involved as the editor who posted the move being protested. Springee (talk) 22:37, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I will do no such thing. Your 'bad faith', crass disdain for policy, guidelines, and procedure of any kind, have been apparent since the moment I first encountered you. That's about as much as I'm willing to say to you now. In meantime, we've got an old CfD being discussed at MR, when no CfD has ever been discussed at MR...lovely! RGloucester — ☎ 23:46, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree with User:RGloucester, this is perfectly fine to review here. It doesn’t belong at DRV becuase there is no deletion angle. Not FORUMSHOPPING because this is the logical escalation if someone feels unsatisfied, better to review here than at any other page. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:55, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. I agree with RGloucester; however, we're here, it's now, let's do it. CfD is the place to discuss category page moves. There is no requirement to advertise the discussion; however, since the usual bot notifications aren't used, the nom has a legitimate grievance. Another way to see the "no consensus" of the second discussion is that because there was no agreement, the consensus of the first discussion should be honored for now. Editors can return to this issue next April or so to again try and garner consensus for reversion back to Category:Automobiles. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 03:28, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't normal procedure to revert to the long standing version of well anything in Wikipedia when a no-consensus is reached? THe problem with a lack of notification in this case is it affects a lot of articles/projects. Springee (talk) 03:43, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That applies to unstable titles and those that have been WP:BOLDly renamed, not to titles where a clear consensus (even if notifications were wanting) has resulted in a rename. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 04:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But that was a "consensus" of just 4 editors. When the number of involved editors was increased to 20 the same question resulted in no consensus. Springee (talk) 04:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Don't see it as "the same question"; see it as "no consensus to revert". As for "just 4 editors", that's why I linked to Wikipedia:Consensus. Consensus on Wikipedia does not necessarily mean the same thing as "consensus" elsewhere! Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 04:25, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Paine, we are not here to discuss a category move, but a discussion and it’s close. Interestingly, I find the essence of the dispute here is exactly the same as at Wikipedia:Move_review#World_Heritage_site. Does a later better-participated “no consensus” devalue the earlier less-participated “consensus”? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:30, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To that specific question I would say... it depends. How much time? If the gap in time is long enough to say something is "the new consensus", I've been told that would typically be about 6 weeks, then I would say the smaller consensus would count as the last stable consensus. Springee (talk) 04:37, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have been thinking the same thing in regard to October's MR. And just like that one, the second RM in this case came way too soon after a clear consensus to move. And just like that one, the "no consensus" outcome of the second, out-of-process RM clearly means that there is no agreement to revert the earlier consensus. So again, I see this as a consensus to move followed by no-consensus to revert that move. I could be wrong. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 04:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PS. Should add that there is a third resemblance to the October MR, which is that both discussions were closed by trusted admins, the first closed with a consensus to move the category page, and the second closed with no consensus to revert that page move. PS added by Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 05:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Restore Original Name The second discussion only 4 days after the first made it clear that that there was not a community consensus for the change at the time it was made. Per WP:TITLECHANGES, if a title has been stable for a long time it shouldn't be changed without consensus. This is also supported by WP:NOCONSENSUS which says when there is no consensus for the change we revert back to the long term stable version. If we keep the new title then, in effect, just four editors will change a title that has been stable for 12 years. If in fact they are correct and the change should be sustained they can try again in 6 months with proper notification. Springee (talk) 03:43, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. There was a CFD to move the categories to "cars" that was successful then a CFD to move back to "automobiles" which was unsuccessful. Thus, the status quo ("cars") should stand for the moment. If at some point in the future (and I would recommend leaving it at least 3 months) a strong argument can be made that "automobiles" is better then those arguments should be presented at a CFD. DexDor^(talk) 07:32, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If the two are only 4 days apart and the second one specifically asks about the first why would we accept the option of just 4 editors vs 20? Springee (talk) 10:53, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And despite the 20 editors there was no consensus to move back, after the clear consensus to move. As noted its unlikely to be moved back as long as the article is at Car. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:33, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But when more than the original 4 editors weighted in it became clear there was no consensus to move. The question here is should a move request that involved just 4 editors and no outside notification outweigh a larger discussion that occurred just a few days later, notified impacted articles/projects and did, very clearly, ask if the original move was valid or would have been supported. The second CfD did ask if the original move was supported. It was not and should be seen as such. You should also not that you were one of the four editors from the first CfD and this an involved editor. Springee (talk) 13:48, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As noted below, the arguments for "Automobiles" appear to be rather weak, the side wanting "Cars" cited relevant guidelines specifying that it is usual for the article and category to match and RGloucester gave extensive arguments and sources for favouring Cars. If anything it should have been closed as "no consensus to move" meaning stronger arguments were presented keeping it at Cars that moving back to Automobiles. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:59, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Half the editors felt the arguments you presented were unconvincing. What does that say about your claims? Springee (talk) 14:49, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That there was no overwhelming consensus locally but that the policies and guidelines favour the status quo better. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's just your opinion. It wasn't that of the closing editor nor a number of experienced editors. Springee (talk) 15:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse as Category:Cars The arguments that it 1) matches the article Car (which was moved as a result of a RM in 2014) 2) "Car" is more common globally. The arguments that 1) "Cars" is ambiguous were responded that it is overwhelmingly primary and that its only ambiguous because its a more common term, thus other topics (like the film) have been names "Cars" not "Automobiles" because of this (although that was countered). 2) "Cars" can mean other types of veichels, while "Automobiles", was argued against that "Automobiles" is actually more ambiguous. Thus I think the policies and consensus was correct and that (except for extra disambiguation and a slightly different scope) we use the same name as the article and that CFD is not the place to continue the general name debate, that belongs at a new RM for the article. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That addresses the reason you started too change the name, not if the move should be reviewed based on the larger community input. Springee (talk) 13:27, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse. RM1, clear consensus, 4 users unanimous and the closer who I am sure would agree with the rationale. Categories should follow the parent article, this simple rule is why CfD renames are not controversial. RM2, although better participated, was probably so because someone created excitement, and that discussion was a mess, and did not invalidate the previous textbook rename to follow the parent article. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:06, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The category rename is consequential from the following RM: Talk:Car/Naming#RM_(September_2014). The category follows the parent article. If there is a problem with ambiguity, take it up on the parent article talk page. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:13, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But that argument relates to the closing vs the issue I've raised here. The issue here is that the first closing lacked wider community input. The second one did and reached a different conclusion. As you said, the question is should a limited consensus take president over a larger discussion that reached a different conclusion once wider input was sought. Springee (talk) 14:53, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The quality of arguments in RM2 to move back we’re unimpressive. Arguments that speak to the title of the article “Car” should be discounted. Multiple participants pointed out how categories take their title from the parent article. You massively badgered in the discussion, but ignored the most compelling arguments. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are we discussing the process or the previous discussion? It was also noted that categories do not have to be tied to an article and that the category "Automobile" per @Dennis Brown:'s comment. That seemed to be the only argument for the change. Remember, the MR2 specifically asked about restoration and in context of the closer from 4 days earlier. Would it have been better to just request the old one be reopened? My concern is that currently we have no consensus so we default to previous stable. If we don't then the new title becomes "stable" even though it didn't have a true consensus. It's a weaselly way to make a change that caused concern that will result in some topics being dropped out of what used to be category: automobile. For instance, SUVs aren't cars but they are automobiles. A simple rename shouldn't result in such issues. Springee (talk) 22:59, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Take it to Talk:Car. Category space is not for second tier titling disputes. Category titles are subservient to article titles. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Completely agree with SmokeyJoe on taking this to Talk:Car. Categories may not have to be tied to an article, but doing so is standard practice. This was the single issue in both discussion (in which I participated, for that matter) and no good arguments were given to counter this. The point that SUVs are not cars is moot, because that same argument applies to both article title and category title.

In order to proceed in a constructive way, there are three good alternatives:

Article at Car; category at Category:Cars
Article at Automobile; category at Category:Automobiles
Two separate articles on Car and Automobile; two categories Category:Cars and Category:Automobiles

Having said that, it is obvious that I endorse the first closure and accept the second closure (although that might also have been 'keep'). Marcocapelle (talk) 13:05, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems this is where it will have to go. However this also illustrates the problem with the original move request. Look who has replied here, the editors involved with this board, not the larger audience that participated in RM2. This is why it was so problematic that none of the impacted articles/projects were notified. That is a problem. Again the claims of weak "for" arguments made by those opposed didn't mean much. About half the editors were not convinced. The closing said no consensus but nothing about either side having a lesser case so those claims shouldn't have any weight here. Furthermore, per the rules here the quality of those arguments don't come into play since that would, only if the greater participation of RM2 is sufficient up overturn the 4 editors who agreed to make the change. Consider this, we are saying the opinion of just 4 editors should supercede that of 20. Anyway, even though article Car and category Cars don't have to be tied together (certainly they aren't based on how category:automobile was used in practice) perhaps the best solution is to deal with the screwy article hierarchy. Springee (talk) 15:00, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- SmokeyJoe didn't participate in either CFD and agreed that it is the article, not category that needs debating. Its unlikely that the category will go elsewhere now, since the article has been stable for over 4 years. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:06, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NB. I did not say *needs* debating. But if someone wants to debate, they should go to the article talk page, and talk page subpages. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:50, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse closure of RM2 as "no consensus"; Neutral on the closure of RM1. Had RM1 been publicized to involved editors, it would likely also have been closed as no consensus - thereby leaving the names unchanged - so one could make a case for overturning it.

But there are two primary issues ~~at hand~~ underpinning this debate:

The title of the automobile/car article, which should be discussed at Talk:Car
The content of Category:Cars and related categories which were until recently named with the word "automobiles", which should be discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles

I don't believe this is a suitable venue to discuss these issues at this time, as the category naming is secondary to the above (despite the fact that, based on some comments that were previously made elsewhere, that the category renaming may have been a back-door means of changing the status quo of point #2 without discussion). --Sable232 (talk) 21:30, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Don’t forget the default issue at hand. “Did User:Jc37 correctly close the discussion?”

I think he did, although as always I wish closers would use more words when closing contentious discussions, summarise the discussion and explain why that is the close. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I suppose I could've worded that differently. In that case, yes, he did, and I agree on your second point. --Sable232 (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe CFD#1 was invalid, while I understand and accept that the project should have been notified (though it was on the Article Alerts and I was not the nom). Wikipedia:Perennial proposals#All authors must be notified of deletion doesn't suggest that its required. Not only was the CFD open for nearly 12 days but it was also listed at CFDS for a further 5. That suggests we gave more than enough time. If this was over the main article Car that might be a bit different, but the article is highly visible anyway so manual notification would probably be unnecessary. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:59, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While I can see your side on this remember that the objective should be to make sure impacted editors/articles are notified. The fact that people who watch or are members of Project: automobile weren't aware certainly suggests the notification want adequate. Heck, with a category name like "automobile" I had assumed the category and project were the linked entities. Anyway, I would hope that even those who are happy with the final outcome can agree that had RM1 had wider notification we wouldn't be here. Springee (talk) 01:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Springee, as has been said before, projects have no special control over pages within their scope. There is no requirement to notify projects. Notification was by definition 'adequate', as the letter and spirit of the instructions for filing a CfD were followed in this case. The category renaming did appear in the WP Automobiles article alerts, and was listed in all the usual places where CfDs are listed. Your continued portrayal of my nomination as being somehow 'covert', lacking 'adequate' notification is a canard that I wish you'd stop repeating. Again, no notification was required, per WP:CFD. RGloucester — ☎ 02:15, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But notifying a project would be an obvious thing to do. You can claim you followed the letter of the law but certainly not the spirit. If you had the editors such as myself who watch project: automobile but not car wouldn't have been caught if guard. I didn't say it was covert. I have no idea what discussion you had with whom. What I showered was that with more notification, just project automobile and project transportation, the outcome of a move discussion would have been much different. It was only "covert" if your lack of notification was intentional to avoid scrutiny. Perhaps the CfD guidelines should be changed to ensure better notification and avoid situations like this in the future. Springee (talk) 03:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is not an 'obvious thing to do'. Projects are basically groups of editors with the same interests...they have no special control over article content, categories, or anything else. There is no reason to specially notify such groups, as the members of such projects have no more authority than any other editor, and do not have WP:OWNERSHIP over specific tracts of articles, which is why there is no requirement to notify them. Notification is provided to the broader Wikipedia editorial base at the category page, at the CfD page, and in the article alerts of projects that have tagged the relevant category or article. This is what is called for by our policy & guidelines, and this is what was done. The outcome of the discussion in both cases was the same. Consensus to move away from 'automobiles', and no consensus to move away from 'cars'. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about this. It's impossible to argue that there was anything wrong with either the nomination or closures. If you are concerned about the 'merits' of such a move, then the correct path forward is to propose a new move. RGloucester — ☎ 03:23, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are 24 subcategories under what was category:automobiles. How many articles are in those 24 categories? What are the chances that quite a number of impacted articles/editors had no idea that you had proposed changing the category name? CfD specifically offers notification suggestions and says that you should consider notifying related projects etc.[[11]]. If I understand you correctly you notified NONE of them. Not one but you say your notification was within the spirit of the rules. Springee (talk) 03:39, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As it says at WP:CFD: 'In addition to the steps listed above, you may choose to invite participation by editors...' I notified none, because none needed notification. I deemed the standard notification sufficient, and it was. There is no requirement for a special notification for WikiProjects. Such a requirement has been rejected by community consensus many times, as Crouch, Swale noted above. I've said my bit...enough is enough. Let the uninvolved editors determine whether my actions were inappropriate. RGloucester — ☎ 03:54, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, 24 subcategories. How many tagged articles? You chose to inform none of them. You were obviously wrong about "sufficient" since almost immediately after your closing people were upset with the lack of notification. You followed the rules but not the spirit regardless of your protests to the contrary. Springee (talk) 04:04, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone was informed via the listing at CfD, and by article alerts. In any case, no one was 'upset', other than maybe you, and such 'upset-ness' is not rooted in policy and guidelines, and therefore irrelevant to our discussion. No one can claim to be surprised by this change; the article has been stable at 'car' since the 2014 RM. This was a routine WP:C2D move, nothing else. I will not quicken your fire any longer. RGloucester — ☎ 04:50, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously not "everyone" [[12]]. It doesn't even appear that there were article alerts. You can be dismissive of the views of other editors but that doesn't mean your notification was sufficient. Any reasonable editor can see that you failed to notify editors who per the spirit of the rules should have been. Certainly the editors at project:Automobile can reasonable claim to be surprised. No mater how many times you claim otherwise, all one has to do is read the replies to the MR2 to realize that your outcome would have been different had you notified obvious groups like the projects that link to the article Car. Springee (talk) 04:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the listing at article alerts. There is NO need to specially notify ANYONE. The rules are clear. I cannot have 'failed' to do something that isn't necessary. Why don't you ever read what anyone is writing to you? Why? Move review is meant to be a review by uninvolved parties of the relevant closing. Involved parties should not be bickering in this absurd and useless way. Please stop! RGloucester — ☎ 05:07, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And here is a problem. Many editors, myself included are not project members. Instead we watch the page. Those alerts don't notify watchers assuming that your CfD notification appeared there. None of your claims of keeping with the spirit of the rules mean much when a whole thread that seemed to be you vs the rest was started here [[13]]. How about this... why did my notification to the same three places (the article and the two project pages) result in 20 replies while yours got just 4? You claim to have notified the projects. I did notify the projects. The difference in participation numbers makes the difference clear. Springee (talk) 05:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't 'claim to have notified the projects', because, as I have pointed out tens of times, the projects do not need notification. No more replies from me. If you reply to this, I will request an interaction ban. I really cannot take this any longer. RGloucester — ☎ 05:43, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Threats aren't needed here and no one is forcing you to reply. We don't agree but this can be a civil discussion. I've pointed out a big gap in the notification process. You can say it's not a problem but wouldn't it be better if we didn't have this issue in the first place? Springee (talk) 06:01, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no 'discussion'. The point of move reviews is for uninvolved editors to discuss the close. It is not a forum for involved parties to 'discuss'. I am obliged to respond to any falsehoods, canards, or personal attacks you issue forth, but otherwise, neither of us should really be saying anything here at all. And so it should be. Enough is enough. Follow the MR process, sit back, and let uninvolved editors decide whether the relevant procedure was followed. RGloucester — ☎ 06:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As already noted the category rename should have happened in 2014 as a result of the article rename. That didn't happen because a user disagreed with the RM outcome. The only thing that has changed since 2014 is that ambiguous categories can't be moved under C2D. If the category had have been moved in 2014 then we wouldn't have had this anyway. A do still accept that a manual notification was not issued to the project was not ideal, but as noted 1 this is not required and 2 the rename should never have been controversial anyway, never mind the CFD being invalid consensus. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:25, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Was there a previous move request that failed? If so it would be very questionable not to notify the previous involved editors. Springee (talk) 18:36, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there are several at Talk:Car/Naming. Questionable, yes but that did not make the 1st CFD invalid. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:41, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen those. They appear to be tied to the name of the article vs the category. It looks like even the article renaming was questioned due to the short period of time allowed for comments (one week vs one month for a typical RfC). I was thinking about a previous CfD regarding the same name change. Springee (talk) 18:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The 2014 RM was open for over 8 days[14][15]. The 1st CFD was open for over 11 days (with an additional 5 days at CFDS). The 2nd CFD was open for around 3 weeks. The standard time for a RM, just like CFD, AFD etc is 7 days. Controversial or complicated cases tend to be open longer (unless consensus is clear, which I think it was reasonably). If the article was at Automobile and we got the category moved to Category:Cars from Category:Automobiles while the article was still at "Automobile" then I could see the point about lack of notification making (by common sense) such a CFD invalid but when the article is at Car and the category should have been renamed procedurally years ago, it seems a bit excessive to argue that. I'd suggest the way forward here is either to start a RM for Car to go back to Automobile or to propose splitting the article or category. I can't see either of those likely though. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy close – the 2nd one should have been raised at WP:DRV. I suppose the nominator is keeping DRV for the 23rd effort to overturn this perfectly valid and procedurally scrupulous matching of the article name and the category name. Oculi (talk) 23:58, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Greco-Buddhist art

Closing editor Frayae has been blocked as a sock of a WMF banned editor.[16] I already discussed the problems with closure with him.

My discussion with closing editor shows that they don't understand what is WP:CON and WP:CLOSE and think that if enough people claim on talk page that "2+3=1000" then we should not be stating "2+3=5". Frayae believes in head count over WP:RS and WP:COMMONNAME when both policies supported the proposed title "Gandhara art" to be 5 times more common name [17] and all reliable sources state that both names "Greco-Buddhist art" and "Gandhara art" are interchangeable.[18][19][20][21][22][23]

Frayae has failed to refute these facts. Head count is completely irrelevant because supporting editors like me avoided RM since strong arguments had been already made. Razer(talk) 18:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse. It came out in the discussion on the closer's talk page that the close was actually "no consensus to move" rather than "consensus to not move". The close on the article's talk page could be altered to No consensus ( done); however, the outcome would be the same. The discussion on the closer's talk page should be enough to conclude that it would be okay for editors to return in a few weeks to try again to garner consensus for a page move. From the overall discussion, though, one might glean that to turn the redirect Gandhara art, the target of the RM, into an article on that subject is a more feasible adventure. [Page move logs] Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 01:21, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We are not here to discuss interpretation of terminology used by a WMF banned sock. Would you describe how "no consensus" can be justified? We rely on WP:AT for deciding the consensus, not POV pushing. Same opposing editors will continue saying that 2+2=5 whenever a page move will proposed again. Why do we have to waste time entertaining a non-argument which is not supported by any WP:RS? 2 of the 4 opposes were mostly discussing conduct of proposing editor, not the page move. Do you describe that as consensus? Why we should not move the page to the more common name and keep contradicting reliable sources and policies? Lorstaking (talk) 02:54, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The reason we are here, the only reason, is to decide if the close was reasonable and consistent with the spirit and intent of Wikipedia common practice, policies, or guidelines. My endorsment is clear, and I see no benefit in rearguing the merits of the requested move debate. Best to you! Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 03:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PS. We are not here to discuss either the closer or the blocked nominator of the RM. Such topics are inconsistent with move review discussions. PS added by Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 04:03, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following is extended content. Click "[hide]" to collapse.

It was not "reasonable" because it was closed by a ban evading sock who never understood what is a consensus. Not only that, the sock has nowhere clarified that quality of argument matters in page move discussion. That is not "consistent with the spirit and intent of Wikipedia common practice, policies, or guidelines", but in fact opposite to all of them.
Closures made by ban evading socks are disregarded because we discourage block evasion. It is pretty common to see non-policy based supervote from ban evading socks, such as this closure. Lorstaking (talk) 04:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Well, okay, against my better judgement I will comment that I was very surprised by CheckUser and by the closer's, Frayae's subsequent block, because that editor has made a lot of good decisions toward improvement of Wikipedia. So I still support the close as "reasonable and consistent with the spirit and intent of Wikipedia common practice, policies, or guidelines". And lest we forget, the nominator who requested the page move has also been blocked indefinitely for disruptive editing, and it's not the first time. That's a path we all should be careful not to trod. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 04:26, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure about "a lot of good decisions" because we are discussing closure made by the person who don't understand what is a consensus. Nominator was not evading his block and I was the editor who suggested him the proposed page move. He simply followed the correct WP:COMMONNAME, which happens to be more common than the current name by a long shot.[24] That is something that our closing editor was not actually able to understand. I hope I was more clear this time. Lorstaking (talk) 04:43, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As during the original discussion, you continue to ignore the main argument there, which is that the two terms are not-sufficiently synonymous. Johnbod (talk) 05:16, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Who wouldn't when you are engaging in deceptive POV pushing? Rzvas (talk) 05:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks are not acceptable behavior here on Wikipedia, even if the person who is attacked is blocked. For your own good, I suggest you contain your comments to the subject at hand, which is the close of the requested move. You may be coming agonizingly close to being blocked yourself. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 08:13, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see a personal attack here. You may want to retract your false accusations which is itself a personal attack. You really need to focus on the subject at hand in place of derailing it, given your endorsement is based on your personal view that closing "editor has made a lot of good decisions toward improvement of Wikipedia. So I still support the close". Lorstaking (talk) 08:24, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One of several personal attacks on your part in this discussion is your link above to WP:CIR. In that context you accuse the closer of incompetency, which is a blatant personal attack, and I will be more than happy to take action if your disruptive behavior continues. This is the last time I will ask you to please stay on track and discuss only the close of this requested move, not the closer or any other person involved. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 08:42, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Several? This the only one you can find. As usual, that is not a personal attack and these "accusations" have been normal when it concerns the history of this editor. For making that easier for you, I should link to the siteban discussion regarding this editor, where people saw "massive WP:CIR issues here", "indef block for WP:CIR issues", and you can find more since entire thread was about it. Lorstaking (talk) 08:54, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I must concede that point; however, it still does not mean that this is an acceptable subject for discussion here at Move review, where we should focus only on the requested move's close as "no consensus". Anything else is extended content and off-topic. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 16:47, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse as "no consensus". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Care to explain why? Rzvas (talk) 05:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The absence of consensus in that discussion is so obviously it doesn't require elaboration. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Could not possibly have been closed as "consensus to move". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments that don't comply with the policies should be discounted. Only policy based arguments are counted. Oppose votes failed to provide reliable sources while support votes had tons. This is how I see clear consensus to move the page, because there was lack of sensible argument against the page move. Rzvas (talk) 05:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ec. If you "clear consensus to move the page", I advise you to stop using the word consensus because you do not know what it means. The nomination was poorly considered, and the nominator is now blocked. There was a move to amend the proposal. There was clearly stated opposition. If you believe it needs a rename, wait two months, and then try again with a better prepared nomination statement than was used last time. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You fail to mention that the closure was made by a sock of a banned editor and nomination was correct because "Gandhara art" is the more WP:COMMON name. Do you have sources to argue against that? My understanding of "consensus" is already described by WP:NHC which explicitly state that closure should be "discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue". The moment you adhere that policy, you would also see clear consensus to move the page.This is what I was saying in my comment above. Rzvas (talk) 06:15, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An admin should re-close, but I think it must be a "no consensus" close. The discussion as it stood pre-close was such a mess that it should not be relisted, further discussion cannot turn it into a consensus. I further advise you to give up wikilawyering, it is unpersuasive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:25, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse as "no consensus" (as a participant in the first discussion). The supporters concentrated exclusively on COMMONNAME arguments, using only one of the spellings (Greco- not Graeco), and ignored the issue of whether the two subjects were the same, which was the main argument of the opposers. The nominationhere might mention that the nominator at the original RM has also been blocked as a sockpuppet. Johnbod (talk) 05:16, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator has shown numerous reliable sources for backing their argument, while yours is just your personal opinion. "Greco" and "Graeco" are both largely uncommon compared "Gandhara art" or "Gandhara school of art". Either we should move to Gandhara school of art or Gandhara art, they are the two top choices. Current page title is very uncommon. Rest of your comment is also misleading as nominator was not "blocked as a sockpuppet".[25][26] Rzvas (talk) 05:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support and move to Gandhara art per policy based comments here and the page move discussion. It seems that oppose votes, like the above one (Johnbod) had no argument against the proposed page move and they resorted to what can be described as entirely absurd. We should avoid setting a precedent that we can't modify the article only because some POV pushers don't want us to. Rzvas (talk) 05:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Right, we can see you're a really neutral, level-headed guy! Johnbod (talk) 05:33, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I thought a relist would be a better option had this move involved arguments about POV title, honorific, or there was some dispute over common name. There was no such dispute with this page move. According to the policy, the page had to be moved to Gandhara art even if no one had supported proposed move because there were no arguments that could actually convince against the proposal. Even now, I am open to a relist as a compromise, but we will have to move anyway. Rzvas (talk) 05:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse The purpose of MRV is purely to evaluate the discussion and see if the close was appropriate; whether the closer is a sock has no bearing to whether the discussion has no consensus or a consensus to move etc (as a side note, Dysklyver is not WMF banned). There was clearly no consensus to move in the discussion, as the discussion was split on whether Gandhara art was a different topic from Greco-Buddhist art, and while those supporting the move brought sources in support of them being the same topic, those opposing brought sources too. Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

None of "those opposing" brought sources to support their stance. Which sources said that Greco-Buddhist art is not a synonymous of more common Gandhara art? Lorstaking (talk) 10:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There has been some progress. Paine Ellsworth has changed "not moved" to "no consensus".[27] Though I hope it was not out of process. Lorstaking (talk) 10:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That change was consistent with the closer's wishes that were revealed on their talk page, and it is also in line with the closer's statement at the RM, "There is no consensus at this time that Gandhara art is the same topic as Greco-Buddhist art." I left that unchanged except for emphasis of "no consensus". That appears to be consistent with what the closer meant. By all means, feel free to revert my edit if you disagree. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 16:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Just curious as to why the Greco-Buddhist art and Greco-Buddhism articles use hyphens (-) rather than endashes (–) as separators? Ref.: WP:ENDASH. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 04:01, 19 November 2018 (UTC) Struck because there are a lot of similar articles that depict "Greco" as a hyphenated modifier, Greco-Iberian alphabet, Greco-Italian War, Greco-Roman wrestling and so on. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 21:26, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 66: / Line 66: @@
 :* Yes, it was noted in the RM that people who interact with him primarily by consuming his services would know him as "Sadhguru". Of course, as a closer I would not count that for much vs. "hey all these independent reliable sources use his name instead". BTW I can live with "Hey Erik you should have closed it as 'no consensus'" – in that case we leave it where it is (and where it had been for years before the moves). It was certainly not the most firm consensus I've seen. [[User:ErikHaugen|ErikHaugen]] <small>([[User talk:ErikHaugen|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/ErikHaugen|contribs]])</small> 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 ::* Thank you for your response. The thing is, I can't in good conscience live with a "no consensus" close, although that ''would'' mean that a follow-up non-out-of-process RM could happen sooner rather than later. The arguments for COMMONNAME still seem to outweigh anything from the opposition, so it still seems to me that the move request should have been granted. Forgive me, as I fail to see how you could have concluded that there was in any way a consensus to not move. What may be needed here from you is a detailed, explicit explanation of how you came to that conclusion. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:95%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>,&nbsp;ed.&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>04:11, 28 November 2018 (UTC)</small>
+:::* [[User:Paine Ellsworth|Paine Ellsworth]], it is very heavy of you to put your life and conscience on the line over this move review.  Are you sure you are a dispassionate reviewer here?  What would [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+sadhguru%2Cthe+sadguru%2Cthe+satguru&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cthe%20sadguru%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bthe%20Sadguru%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bthe%20sadguru%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BThe%20Sadguru%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BThe%20sadguru%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cthe%20satguru%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bthe%20Satguru%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BThe%20Satguru%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bthe%20satguru%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BThe%20satguru%3B%2Cc0 the sadhguru] advise with respect to this disagreement?  --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 05:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 * '''Overturn''' what a mess.  There are basically only two arguments presented.  The main argument supporting a title of ''Sadhguru'' is that it is the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] for this person, and that this person is the primary topic for this spelling.  Nobody seems to dispute that the person is often referred to this way, and this spelling (as opposed to [[Satguru]]) appears to primarily refer to this person.  The argument supporting a title of ''Jaggi Vasudev'' is that Sadhguru is an religious honorific and cannot be used.  [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)#Titles and honorifics]] is clear that ''Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev'' would not be an acceptable title, but doesn't seem to forbid a stand-alone title being a common name. {{br}} While they're not quite fair comparisons, we have both [[Saint Peter]] and [[14th Dalai Lama]] as titles of articles, suggesting that there's no site-wide rule against religious titles in article titles.  Articles are titled [[Jesus]] and [[Muhammed]] (and more recently [[Mirza Ghulam Ahmad]] and [[Menachem Mendel Schneerson]], but Sadhguru appears to be a title more akin to "Saint" than "Messiah", I don't see an inherent NPOV issue in using that title.  Overall, the arguments for [[Sadhguru]] are stronger, and there's a 2-1 numerical majority supporting that position. [[User:power~enwiki|power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/Power~enwiki|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 21:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 *: Notes: No! As noted in my close, another argument was that ''Sadhguru'' is *not* the common name in ''independent'' sources, and ''Jaggi Vasudev'' is. {{tq|site-wide rule}} – WP:OTHERSTUFF. Also: wp:NOTAVOTE applies, especially with a number of SPAs. [[User:ErikHaugen|ErikHaugen]] <small>([[User talk:ErikHaugen|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/ErikHaugen|contribs]])</small> 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)