Wikipedia talk:Non-free content

Archives

Criterion 8 imbroglio

The two or three reversions over the past week need to be aired here to avoid an edit war—the last thing we need.

Here are the versions:

Original

Significance. Non-free content contributes significantly to an article (e.g., it identifies the subject of an article, or illustrates specific, relevant points or sections in the text); it does not serve a purely decorative purpose. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational or user interface elements is normally regarded as decorative.

The "strengthened" version. I was concerned that the tone was quite different to the non-instructional, indicative tone that was established by consensus in the major copy-edit of last month; in particular, "must" and "should" were removed from the criteria, upon my argument that a friendly, this-is-how-it-is tone is more likely to garner compliance among Wikipedians, is more in keeping with its mission, and matches similar changes to other major texts over the past year, including the featured criteria :

Significance. Non-free media must contribute significantly to an article. It must increase the reader's understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. It should be the case that if the article is lacking the image, it significantly impairs the reader's ability to understand the topic. Otherwise, such usage is decorative and is not allowed. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational or user interface elements is normally regarded as decorative.

My edit of that strengthened version. In addition to making the tone consistent with that of the other criteria, it rationalised the wording, in keeping with the need to keep the criteria as short and plain as possible.

Significance. Non-free content contributes significantly to an article. It increases the reader's understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot; without it, the reader's ability to understand the topic is significantly impaired. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries and navigational and user-interface elements is usually not significant in these terms.

My compromise edit today of the second reversion back to the "strengthened" version. I've reluctantly added three negatives. The main point is covered in two sentences, not three, and the decorative thing is covered in one sentence, not two.

Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.

I hope this is acceptable to all. Please discuss it here rather than reverting at the moment. Tony 01:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't it say something like, if an image is necessary to the understanding of the topic? (I tend to use the word vital in discussion, but some might thing that's too strong of a word). -- Ned Scott 01:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I do wonder whether the wording is now too strong (restrictive); I'm not an expert on that aspect. Tony 02:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

• Is it possible to get this straightened out ASAP? Once you figure out exactly what it is, I kind of need a clarification on this rule regarding cases I have seen numerous times in which a sports team logo is used on its sports season article, such as Image:PhiladelphiaEagles 100.gif being used on 2006 Philadelphia Eagles season. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 07:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

• • That was in fact my goal in the strong wording. The "original" version was far too vague, giving wide variations in interpretation. This criterion needs to make it clear that we don't use non-free images just because we can or because they're only marginally related to the subject, but only when they are required in order to understand the article better. Two of my recent IFD deletions are undergoing DRV right now just because of this wide latitude in interpretation (here and here). howcheng {chat} 17:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

So guys, I'm presuming that the current version is strong enough ... Please say if it's not. Tony 14:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this version is too strong. I already previously objected to the addition of the sentence about fair use images in lists and galleries being "normally decorative" as not supported by consensus. Now the wording has been changed to indicate such use is "unacceptable", implying no exceptions, ever. I'm sorry, but just because a certain number of admins wish to push through this agenda and enforce policy in this way does not make it consensus (and thus does not make it policy, per WP:CONSENSUS). This is a major change in policy and needs wider community input before being accepted as policy. And a discussion on this talk page that is unanswered in 5 days does not constitute consensus. DHowell 19:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Except that image licensing policy is specifically exempted. And you know what would happen if licensing policy were put up to consensus-style polls etc -- Wikipedia would be rampant with copyright violations in a vast majority of articles. howcheng {chat} 00:00, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Except that we are not talking about allowing copyright violations. We are talking about items which are legally allowed under fair use, which makes them not copyright violations. And there is nothing in the Foundation licensing policy that says images in lists and galleries are prohibited. Therefore their use or not in aritcles is purely an editorial decision, which is a valid consensus issue. 16:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The current version is enough. I'm assuming we are already in an area where the image is legal because fair use applies. It's silly to go further to say that Wikipedia should not use images where words alone will do. Not unless we've decided it's a text only thing. As an example, you can talk about a company without picturing its logo. So words would work. Hence the new statement would ban use of corporate logos in articles. But most websites, newspapers, etc., including WP, that can reproduce images will show the logo as a way of identifying the company. In that context reproducing the logo is fair a visual impression to go along with the article so that it is appealing and sticks in the reader's mind. Wikidemo 23:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm a non-expert, but already I'm feeling that the recast version on the policy page needs to be revisited. Can we have suggestions of actual text for Criterion 8, possibly by pasting one of the blue texts above and modifying it? Tony 00:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

See below for my suggestion, which is simply to remove "lists, galleries" from the current text. Per Wikidemo, who is a copyright lawyer by the way, the language "It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot" should probably be changed or removed as well. DHowell 16:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Policy change for logos

Many logos have been tagged for deletion because they were missing a fair use rationale, in the same way that many album covers have been. I propose that the requirement for a detailed fair use rationale for logos be eliminated to keep Wikipedia from losing even more logos originally uploaded without a detailed fair use rationale. And then I would like to see the people who tagged these logos for deletion asked to review their tagging and to restore the logos that were being used properly all along. --Eastmain 06:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Logos are almost always acceptable for use on an article about the company. But not, for example, at a high resolution. Or on other articles. Like every other unfree image on Wikipedia, logos should have a fair use rationale for every use. ShadowHalo 07:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed... but that rationale should be part of a template. Those few exceptions where they might be improperly used would occur no more often with a templated rationale than with a non-templated one. --tjstrf talk 07:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes there ought to be a templated per-use standard rationale, for when per-page use falls into a standard class, eg album covers, media product covers, logos... I have requested Betacommandbot to stop, at least for images in categories where this is likely to apply, until such standard boilerplate per-use fair-use rationale templates/text are available.

When per-page use falls into a standard class, it is far preferable for templated text to be used, which is (a) standardised, and (b) can have instances aggregated by "what links here"; rather than have a multitude of different homebrew, possibly legally insufficient, texts added willy-nilly. Jheald 14:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

We are discussing a similar matter with the album covers, I guess its outcome can be used as a precedent, but it is not worth doing two discussions in two different places about the same thing. Check here. -- ReyBrujo 18:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that logos, if only used in the article about the organization they visually represent (usu. in an infobox), are basically going to be a fair use. My concern is, however, that editors will begin to think that they simply can add the non-free image copyright tag and be done with it. That is false; non-free images also need information about the copyright holder, why our use of the image does not affect the exclusive right held by the copyright to reproduce or authorize the reproduction of the logo, etc. -- I just don't think that this kind of information could easily be represented with a mechanical tag ... but then again, I kind of doubt it is being added by the disgruntled editors who get a message saying an image they uploaded is a candidate for speedy deletion. --Iamunknown 18:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Look, let's be honest about what's happened here: Betacommand, and the Betacommandbot, have created a cycle of work. At the end of the day - nobody is saying the album covers are being used improperly, just that they're tagged improperly, and that improper tagging was tolerated for the last, oh, ever. Same thing with logos -- they're not copyright violations, they're not trademark violations, but they are, apparently, not appropriately sourced/justified, according to formerly non-enforced Wikipedia policies.

So great. So thousands of logos and album covers get deleted. And thousands of editors re-upload them, and fill in the "unique" rationales. It's all just a huge waste of time and resources, but it does follow policy, and instead of changing policy to suit the reality (say, by using a common-sense rationale that follows both the law and Wikipedia policy on the logo boilerplate), "we" (read - a very few skilled bot writers and fair use extremists) would rather us all go through this big cycle.

Remember - at the end of the day, the same number of album covers and the same number of logos are going to be on Wikipedia. They'll just have gone through a "process cycle" of deletion, outrage, re-uploading, and tweaking to the rationale. It's all a big mess about nothing; there's no threat to the project, either legally or from a policy purity standpoint. And when the dust settles, it'll all be the same as it is now, except that Betacommand and the Betacommand bot will likely find some other part of the complex and every-changing fair use/non-free content world to attack. And they'll be another outrage. And another cycle of deleting and reuploading... And slowly, surely, as the process gets more and more gummed up, and more frustrating, Wikipedia will ... uh ... become more popular? Or more useful? Peace rules the universe, love rules the stars, and copyrighted content is finally, irrevocably shaken free from the shackles of its creation and creators?

At least, I think that's the plan. I'm not really sure.  ;) Jenolen ^{speak it!} 19:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• Since there can't be a justification for the vast majority of uses, it's likely there will be significantly less fair use images on Wikipedia. Understand; some language wikipedias have NO fair use at all. A shocking thing has happened. They've managed to struggle in the face of this adversity and still produce quality work. :) --Fair use extremist 21:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Interesting! We may be "going German" after all! Or, did I miss something? I thought fair use was still permitted on the English-language Wikipedia? (Not for long, says my betting money...) And how do you reconcile the idea of eliminating fair use, with the primary mission of Wikipedia - to produce an encyclopedia of the highest quality? WP:ENC, and all.... Jenolen ^{speak it!} 22:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
    • The primary mission of Wikipedia is to produce a free encyclopedia. --Durin 22:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Which is odd, because I thought WP:ENC makes very clear, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a social movement to create free content. My understanding was, the creation of free content is the mission of the foundation; Wikipedia, though, still permits fair use and other uses of copyright material. That, though, seems to be changing... Jenolen ^{speak it!} 23:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
        • See Wikipedia:About, the first line. It says "Wikipedia...is a multilingual, web-based, free content encyclopedia project." --Durin 17:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
          • Actually, there's some good reading there. The site is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, which is largely uninvolved in daily operation and writing. Uh, or not. And secondly, the percentage of that page devoted to Wikipedia's encyclopedia mission, as opposed to Wikipedia's free content mission, is about running about 95% to 5% in favor of "encyclopedia." Given the importance of free/libre evangelism 'round these parts, you'd think the whole free content thing would rate more than a passing mention on the "about" page, but hey, what do I know? Jenolen ^{speak it!} 09:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Critical commentary on album covers

Text under discussion, proposed by Jossi for addition into the project page:

Examples of unacceptable use

• A CD cover, album cover, or book cover used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not include critical commentary of the cover art

(added by Jheald 17:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC), for clarity).

I've reverted this edit by Jossi. The Foundation's licensing policy allows use of copyrighted images "to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works". Critical commentary on the image itself strengthens our fair use claim, but is not necessary and is often not applicable (for example, what's there to say at Enta Da Stage). ShadowHalo 15:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

After edit conflict, I had the following to say about essentially the same issue:

What is the logic in saying that logos can be used solely for identification but cover art must include critical commentary? In most cases they serve functionally the same purpose in the real world, i.e. to visually identify a particular group/product. So I don't see why they are treated differently here. Personally, I'd think identification ought to be a valid use in both cases. Dragons flight 15:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• There is no special case here. Logos should be treated the same as album covers. --Durin 15:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree. Neither should require critical commentary of the image itself, so long as there is extensive critical commentary, survey or review of the work or object to which it relates. Jheald 16:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Using an albumcover for identification may be permissable, but only in an actual article about the album itself (and I mean an actual article, not just list tracks and a infobox), just like logos are permissable for identification only in articles about the company or organization itself. That does not mean it's automaticaly also ok to use dozens (or even hundredts for the more prolific artists) albumcovers in a discography list, just like it's not ok to use dozens of logos in articles about championships or lists of companies and whatever. So the issue here is theyr ussage in lists or galleries where each album is just an item in a list rater than the main subject of the article, and where there is not any "in depth" commentary on spesific albums. --Sherool (talk) 16:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• Ops... I seem to have gotten a little confused here, I thougt we where still talking about discography lists... --Sherool (talk) 16:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • (ec) I realize the timing is confusing given the above discussion, but I'm not actually talking about discographies. Jossi's edit, highlighted above, and other existing text on the page (i.e. "*Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification and critical commentary (not for identification without critical commentary)"), both seem to take the position that even in articles about a specific album/book/etc. the editor would be required to provide critical commentary specific to the cover art. That seems inconsistent both with the way logos are treated and with the way articles on albums/books are usually handled in practice. If identification is considered a sufficient use of cover art in an article about the object itself, then perhaps this should be clarified. Dragons flight 16:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This only shows the lack of consensus on this issue. The edit I made was expressing the prevailing understanding behind massive tagging and massive deletion of images recently. We need to get clear on this ASAP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• What in particular would you like to clarify? --Durin 17:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the sense of the reverted edit. If one includes cover art, either it's just decoration (in which case free decoration would take its place--or even no decoration at all--without lessening the informational content) or it's there for informational purposes. If the latter, its relevance should be discussed. This could be as simple as, in the case of the Surf's Up album, explaining that the cover is a rendition in oils of a famous sculpture called "End of the trail". The image of a dried river bed of the inner songsheet also suggests and ending, a petering-out, of inspiration. Secondary sources have commented on the iconography so it's a good subject. --Tony Sidaway 17:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This is fatuous. The cover art imagery is the most visible aspect of the work, and therefore significant to the article on the album, with or without comment. Jheald 17:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

An album cover in an article about the album serves to identify it, and hence provides the same sort of information that a logo does. Again, I don't understand the explicit dichotomy that this sets up where cover art is considered intrinsically different from logos. Dragons flight 17:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think jossi was stating that album covers and logos are different. He was just providing album covers as an example (since he added it to a list of examples). ShadowHalo 18:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This is nonsense. First, the rule Sidaway is proposing proposed above would only encourage editors to insert trivial comments about images or add their own original research. It is a bad idea. Second, anyone who has spent any time with an album or book knows that the sight of the cover image can invoke one's memory of the content. Sometimes I can't think of the name of an artist or album, or author or title, but I can picture the cover. Identification of an album/book/corporation with an image is an important use worth defending. In cases where images uses are obvious and reasonable we should be encouraging clear fair use rationale in a way that does not threaten prompt deletion and reversal of other editors good faith efforts to build the 'pedia. -MrFizyx 18:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• --An espouser of nonsense 19:13 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't the name and track list provide all necessary identifying information? Moreover, if someone shows me the US cover of Nicely Out of Tune it's unlikely to be of much use in identifying the album to me. Similarly the Josh Kirby book covers for UK editions of early Terry Pratchett novels are unlikely to be of much use to an American reader, as far as identification goes. This isn't to say that the Josh Kirby artwork isn't worth writing about. And if it is, it should be illustrated. --Tony Sidaway 19:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't a person be identified by name, adress, DOB? Why should anyone ever need to see a photo ID? Certianly some covers provide a less useful visual than others. I'm sure we could come up with good and bad examples. My point is that identification has a visual component. As a side note for the self-proclaimed "expouser of nonsense" above. Please remember that in addition to free content, notions of consensus and civility are still held in high regard on this project. -MrFizyx 20:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• Indeed, which is PRECISELY why I signed that way. You refer to the counter arguments against you as nonsense. Fine. I'm an espouser of nonsense. If you want to preach to me about violations of civility, please look in the mirror when doing so. --An espouser of nonsense 21:04 5 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, you're right. I should do better than throw around words like "nonsense", and you can probably do better than one liners and "If you honestly believe...then we have nothing to discuss," (as you told to an editor above who was expressing an opinion I happen to share). None of these things build consensus nor promote civility. I wasn't concerned about your new signature. "Nonsense" was of course my opinion about the proposal, and I followed it with two reasons for my objections. You disagree with me and that is fine. You seem to disagree with a lot of editors on this page.

Tell me, is this a fair summary of your argument above with other editors? (Please forgive any sarcasm that I've failed to filter out):

Wikipedia should only contain free content and nothing else. You feel your opinion is entirely supported by m:Mission. Anyone who disagrees with you or interprets the mission differently should keep in mind that,

1. he or she is just plain wrong and you are right, and
2. important people have already decided so complaining is useless.

Does that about cover it? I don't see much room in there for civil discussion or compromise. You are having fun, embracing terms like "fair use extremist", and taunting other editors a bit, and I suppose it is all well and good. Perhaps it is your vision of wikipedia that will eventually be realized. At the moment, however, I see very few on this page who agree with all of your positions so you might try to play a bit more nicely with others. As for me, I always have room to improve. Regards, -MrFizyx 22:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, that agrees with my position <cough> (and yes you can call that taunting you if you like). I've taken pains to point out to you and others that Wikipedia is about free content. Several people, including yourself, do not seem to be interested in Wikipedia having as little fair use as possible. Do I think Wikipedia could survive just fine without fair use? Absolutely. The second largest language project (indeed, almost all other language projects) do not permit fair use and they seem to get along just fine. I concur with Jimbo, when he said that fair use should be strictly limited to a very small set of images such as highly significant historical events.
• There's a philosophical divide here, and within it there is no middle ground. Either you're in favor of free content, or you are not. There's not much room to compromise on that.
• People here have been arguing very, very, very vociferously that we absolutely MUST have album covers on album articles. Why? There's no substantiative reason why this is absolutely necessary. If we're so limited in our abilities to discuss Bad (album) that we must have an album cover in order for the article to be complete, then we might as well turn in our editing tools. Note that the German version has no album cover. de:Bad (Album). Amazingly enough, that article is quite useful without the cover. You don't *have* to have a cover to make the article complete. If the cover were somehow unique, that might be interesting; if the article discusses why the cover is unique, it might be useful to see the cover. As is, any reader here is well capable of going to amazon.com and seeing what the cover of this album looks like [1]. The presence of the album's image adds virtually nothing to the article.
• Despite this, several people here keep fighting like mad to have this category of usage allowed. It's not free content. It's not even close to free content. There's no way that it can be interpreted to be free content. Yet, according to these proponents we must have this. --Durin 22:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, you continue to sit here and repeat yourself, hoping that if you give your free content spiel long enough we'll all quit and go away, while ignoring all the foundation statements that disagree with your particular POV. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. --tjstrf talk 22:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• Why thank you! I strive to be non-sensical. --Durin 22:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Despite having a different perspective a few days back, I now agree with Durin and Tony's viewpoint on this, after understanding the rational behind it. No book cover, no CD covers and no "fair use" content unless absolutely necessary as per the wording in WP:FUC policy: Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Basically, the inclusion of non-free content such as cover art should be the exception and not the rule.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

So you (that's plural) ARE saying that pages about albums, games and books should not include the cover image other than in exception cases. At least that's an understandable opinion, even though I may not agree. I only wish you would have said that from the beginning instead of making a bot go around tagging thousands of images. There is no consensus for your opinion at the moment. Some wikiproject guidelines even directly contradict it. So I think you should bring this up as a proper discussion at the Village Pump and relevant Wikiprojects. Even if you think the opinions of other editors and wikiprojects don't matter, you should at least inform them before you go enforce your opinion with a bot. --Apoc2400 02:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding consensus, there doesn't seem to be much consensus on this talk page. Those who don't have a problem with the limited inclusion of fair use images are probably less compelled to leave comments here than those who do. In other words, consensus might be simply a consensus of squeaky wheels, so to speak. Perhaps this is why the Foundation's decision trumps everything, even consensus. For what it's worth I always thought the {{albumcover}} template was a sufficient fair use rationale as long as the image was used in an article about the album. I could never understand how a discography gallery could ever fall under fair use, particularly given our free content mission. Chiming in, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Right with you, Gyrofrog . I'd also tend to agree that including album cover images in discographies or chronologies is over the top and probably taking advantage of fair use - they're after all just glorified lists. However in an article devoted to that album or to a song on that album, I think it's more a matter of arguing why that's not fair use than why it is, particularly with the existing album cover template (though admittedly I've succumbed to adding additional fair use rationales to images threatened with deletion in spite of the template's inbuilt rationale which served for so long). A popular music album is a work made up of a number of components, primarily audio but also visual, and you can make a good case that such an album's cover art is a more intrinsic and identifying part of the overall package than a book cover or a film poster. While the album cover does occasionally change for reissues, that's far less common than a book cover changing. So the identification argument holds more water when it comes to album or single covers. Does that mean the covers themselves need commentary to qualify for fair use? As ShadowHalo said earlier, that might bolster the argument but is not essential. Cheers, Ian Rose 12:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[Reply to Durin] Yes, I suppose it is possible to create useful articles with only free images or no images whatsoever. On the other hand, readers of the Even Worse article might appreciate quick access to the cover of Bad. The image is sufficiently iconic to to have been parodied, and thus is certianly helpful for identification. Since it is not replacable with a free image, having it will not limit our ability to provide free content any more than not having it. I think you are partly correct regarding the philosophical differences. However, even many of us that favor the album covers promote replacing fair use images with free ones where possible. -MrFizyx 16:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

This is an exemption policy under general Foundation non-free use policy. That means that stuff that doesn't match the standards we give here isn't allowed.

There has been controversy over the CD covers counter-example (intended to illustrate the kind of stuff that almost certainly isn't acceptable).

I have edited the examples in the guideline today to add this new wording:

16. A CD cover, album cover, or boom cover used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not justify this by reference to attributes of the cover art. The mere fact that a picture has been placed on the cover of an album to sell it is not enough.

The reasoning here is that sticking any old picture into an article is purely decorative, and that isn't acceptable because of criterion 8 of this guideline:

Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.

Having some old picture in an article doesn't increase understanding unless the picture means something in the context of the product. The Led Zeppelin IV cover and liner notes graphics, for instance, are of high iconographic significance because they came to represent the group, as the Surf's Up cover with its ominous dark rendition of End of the Trail or the Sergeant Pepper cover with its cultural references. Most of the Yes covers show different phases of Roger Dean's work with the band, which included not only album covers but on-stage props used in their tours.

At the lower end of the scale we have items like the Beatles' White album, with its deliberately anonymous cover, or Lindisfarne's Nicely Out of Tune, the UK cover of which was deliberately laden with anachronisms and joky references to their parochial Tyneside origins. These things should be part of the article, or else they're just pictures used for decoration. --Tony Sidaway 00:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly the issue at hand. There is unambiguous policy in place in this regard, which differs from its application. The gap needs to be closed: either the policy or its application need to be changed. I am for the latter. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Jheald has reverted the edit[2], with the edit summary "that's not what the policy requires. If you think it should be, get consensus on the talk page."

Well that was a bold edit by me and an equally bold reversal by Jheald. But I don't see any comment here by Jheald. Could we have some kind of discussion over whether this interpretation of policy is correct? My point is that criterion 8 of this guideline requires something more than merely using an album cover as decoration. The criterion seems to be pretty plain in saying:

Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot.

If I've misunderstood it, I can be enlightened, and maybe we'll all learn from the discussion. But first we need to hold the discussion. Blind reverts like this aren't useful. --Tony Sidaway 01:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps if you look at this edit you would find my comment -- before someone erased it. [3] Jheald 01:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Now, if the principle on this talk page is that new sections shouldn't be opened on matters already under discussion - as would seem to have been established above - then I propose to (again) close the discussion here, and copy the text to the section where the matter is already under discussion. Jheald 01:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

So, here is the comment, which (I presume accidentally) got deleted:

Disputed, and reverted. You can't simply make whatever changes you like to the policy without establishing and demonstrating consensus first.

The point about album cover images is they achieve a high iconographic significance in the context of the album because they come to represent the album -- the White album is one of the clearest examples of that of all. Jheald 01:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't dispute that album cover images and the like may achieve high iconographic significance. Sometimes. If they don't they won't be discussed in the article and their use would therefore be purely decorative (as in indeed their usual function on the cover in the first place). The example I give merely illustrates in a list called "Examples of unacceptable use" an example of unacceptable use. The wording is chosen carefully: used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not justify this by reference to attributes of the cover art. The mere fact that a picture has been placed on the cover of an album to sell it is not enough.

If there is some significance about the image, it will be a legitimate subject of discussion in the article about the album. It takes a few second to upload an image and stick it into an article. While you're uploading the image you could be writing a sentence or two about the iconography. If you can't find anything to write about, I suggest that you have failed to comply with criterion 8:

Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.

Don't just treat these things as pretty pictures. Because if you do, you're failing to comply with foundation policy.

And again, I counsel you: don't treat this illustration as a change to policy, for it surely is not. It is simply an illustration of what does not comply with policy. And a mere picture does not comply with policy. It must add to the meaning of the article. You must show that or the item will be deleted. --Tony Sidaway 02:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Tony, I think it is clear that different people have different opinions about what is "significant" versus what is "decorative". For me, I think in virtually all articles about a thing that showing what the thing looks like contributes significantly, as it conveys information about the appearance that is rarely (if ever) captured by the text. I would agree with you that showing the same image in other articles (such as about the composer, or in a discography) would usually be decorative. Let me say it again, in my opinion, if an article is about X then showing what X looks like is almost always a significant contribution to the article. Dragons flight 03:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• Concur with User:Dragons flight. Badagnani 03:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Old quality/freedom issue. Have you noticed that album covers are not removed from articles about the album itself unless the image lacks source, license or rationale? The problem are always discographies. People want them to look like a catalog and not a list. How can you justify an album cover when the entry only shows the album name, release date and sold units? It is not different from using gifs as list items instead of * or # -- ReyBrujo 03:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

But removing these images is likely to be the next step in this crusade. I completely disagree with the claim that using cover in the article about the product it illustrates is "decorative". In many cases, this is the only way to illustrate the article. See what Jimbo said about the matter once at Wikipedia talk:Publicity photos#This page is dangerous: My own view, which is at the extreme end of the spectrum I know, and therefore not (yet) formal policy in every case, is that we ought to have almost no fair use, outside of a very narrow class of images that are of unique historical importance. The cover of an album is the best and only sensible illustration of an article about that album, for example. Jogers (talk) 13:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The idea that only some album covers have "iconographic significance" is ridiculous. They all do. The primary definition of icon is simply "a picture, image, or other representation" of something; the representation need not be "important and enduring" or subject to "great attention and devotion." An album cover is a representation of an album—the "best and only sensible" representation, according to Jimbo Wales—so an album cover is an icon. Album covers should therefore be treated no differently than icons. Punctured Bicycle 06:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Logo use

User:Larry Dunn has removed Image:Rangers.png from the Rangers F.C. article. While I am not an expert in these things, it seems to me that the image and this specific use would fall well inside our current policies. Comments? --John 21:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Per current policy:

• Team and corporate logos: For identification.

So looks fine to me (though BetacommandBot will come after you, unless you add a fair use rationale for each usage of it...)

This policy isn't unanimously supported though, and might be narrowed to require some critical commentary of the logo itself, its relevance and its significance, if consensus is to narrow acceptable uses for cover art in this sort of way, as is being discussed futher up this page. Jheald 21:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, that's what I thought. The image seems to have an adequate fair use rationale so I will restore it to the article. --John 21:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

A few other similar edits may need reverted. WATP  ^(talk) • _(contribs) 21:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

One thing I should maybe add: In the fair use rationale, you should probably specify at the top what the image is, and exactly which pages that it is being used on your rationale applies to. You might also think of adding something like "The image has widespread availability elsewhere on the internet" and "Use of the image will not affect the value of the original work or limit the copyright holder's rights or ability to carry on a normal exploitation of the original" -- to emphasise that nobody is going to impoverish Rangers' coffers by printing their own illicit T-shirts from this image, because of its reduced resolution. Jheald 22:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• If someone were to make t-shirts from this logo, Rangers F.C. would be well within their rights to sue the maker. --Durin 22:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

  I think the point was that it would make a lousy t-shirt and someone making a counterfeit t-shirt could easily find a better source any number of places on the internet. I suppose that does sum up your vision nicely though, a "t-shirt legal wikipedia". Admirable perhaps, but I'm not ready to sign on. -MrFizyx 22:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

  The image is of low enough resolution that it would not be feasible to use it on a t-shirt. Regarding the issue that the entire work is being used, that really doesn't matter. The four points that Larry Dunn listed are not a checklist. Use does not have to meet all four in order to comply with U.S. fair use laws. Rather, they are the four things taken into consideration when deciding whether or not the use is fair, with special emphasis on the impact on the market role of the original work. ShadowHalo 22:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• I could very easily use it on a t-shirt as an embroidered logo on a pocket. It's well above resolution necessary for that. I'm not disputing it's presence on the article, just it's usability on a t-shirt and that it should never be used in that way and can not be under any legitimate fair use claim. --Durin 22:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

  Sorry, I misunderstood what you had written. My apologies. ShadowHalo 23:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

:::::*Point 3 of the licensing policy resolution of the Wikimedia Foundation, the resolution that our policy page should be modelled after, specifically allows using FU images of logos to illustrate an article as long as it has a fair use rationale. Durin, this isn't meant as a personal offense, but you aren't a lawyer (neither am I) and I strongly doubt that the WMF would have any responsibility in your example. As you mention yourself, RFC would be right to sue the maker, not the one of hundreds of possible sources where the "maker" happened to download the image from. Malc82 17:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Please read above where I state that I am not commenting on the presence of the logo in the article before making statements about what I said. Thank you. --Durin 13:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• My apologies, completely misinterpreted your second comment. Malc82 14:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• No worries. Last I checked, you're human and I'm human. We all make errors :) --Durin 14:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale

I would like to know why all non-free Wikipedia images must be accompanied by a specific fair use rationale for each case. This is not required by United States copyright law. The relevant section of the law, verbatim, is as follows:

---

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

---

Source: Official US Copyright Office Website

Nowhere in the law does it say that a specific rationale needs to accompany each use. So can anyone say why this policy was introduced here in the first place? This policy cannot be changed as of now without wider community input and (most likely) foundation approval, but if we can kill this proposal now with a specific reason it will save us a lot of trouble. —METS501 (talk) 01:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

True the US law doesnt require it, but many many people dont understand Fair use, and abuse fair use images. What rationales do is clearly define where, how, and why a copyrighted image must be used on wikipedia. The idea behind rationales is simple. clearly state why we should display copyrighted images. Doing so allows us do define proper use of said image under copyright law. Example: A user is a star wars fan. they want to include images into star wars pages. (such images are copyright) to avoid overuse and use not covered by fair use the foundation asks that every use of a copyright image be given an explanation of why that page needs to include said image. Just because an article is about the US government that doesnt mean that the use of the seal of the United States can be used on every page. since the image is copyrighted use of the image should be limited to the articles directly related to the image. Betacommand ^{(talk • contribs • Bot)} 03:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I can understand that, but shouldn't templated messages be OK? —METS501 (talk) 03:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I would have thought so. There seems a certain punitive component to the idea that each occasion of fair use should have a hand-crafted fair use rationale. The wordings of some of the messages (and especially the edit summaries) don't help either. Everything Betacommand mentions above could be incorporated into the {{fairusein}} template, no? --John 04:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

These warnings will just make people add something that looks like a fair use rationale to images whether it's a valid rationale or not. We need clear guidelines on where we can have fair use images and where we cannot. Now, most users will add a rationale that just repeats what's already said in the template. You will will have to run an other tagging round in a few months about bad rationales. Most users don't know the details of fair use law and never will. That's why we need proper guidelines and templates instead of just telling people to write their own rationale. We especially need guidelines and templates for the most common cases such as an album cover on the page about that album where there is no textual commentary of the cover itself. --Apoc2400 05:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I think all of you missed the part above where it says "the purpose and character of the use". That's asking for rationale. Without that rationale, we are not adhereing to fair use law. Regardless, Wikipedia policies on this are a superset of fair use law. Please see Wikipedia:About. We are a free content encyclopedia. Copyrighted images used under fair use do not fit that definition. --Durin 05:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

In most cases the purpose is "to show what it looks like". About your second point, fair use is not currently banned on the English Wikipedia. If you want to change that, then start a proper discussion about it. --Apoc2400 05:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. It isn't banned. It is, however, strongly limited. --Durin 05:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the question is how strongly limited. I think we need proper policies and guidelines for this, rather than just create a lot of hoops the editors have to jump through. --Apoc2400 05:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

• It's not about jumping through hoops. There are some who feel this bot is creating needless work because it tags, people add rationales, and we're back to square one. This is not the case. Fair use images must be justified for their inclusion. If the fair use rationale is inadequate, and a reasonable justification can not be made (for example, for a living person) then the image should be deleted. This bot is helping to progress things towards this state. This isn't some trick to see how high people can jump, and how many tricks they can do. It's about fair use law, and it is about free content. We are not the fair use encyclopedia. We are a free content encyclopedia. --Durin 05:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
• There is no legal reason against using standardised rationale templates for standard cases. --Apoc2400 06:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
• What I have a problem with here is that if you want to remove a large class of fair use images, then you should spell it out clearly instead of asking for detailed rationales. If you ask people for rationales they will add rationales, whether they are appropriate or not. If you look at some of the rationales people are adding today, you will see that most of them don't add any information at all. Betacommand is already talking about running the bot again against images with rationales that aren't good enough. If we had a policy or guideline saying "no fair use images in discographies" it would be a lot more easy to make people understand. I could support such a policy/guideline too. For a single picture, I think fair use is ok though. --Apoc2400 06:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"Without that rationale, we are not adhereing to fair use law."

You don't have to type out a rationale for it to exist - indeed as has been pointed out, they are often quite obvious. ¦ Reisio 05:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

If only that were so... --Durin 05:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to take such a seemingly glib comment seriously. That is so - that's why people are disputing over it (obviously). ¦ Reisio 06:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that this is ridiculous - all it does is create needless hoops. Is anyone really arguing against the notion that all fair use rationales for using (for example) movie posters will be pretty much the same? Wikipedia should make things easier for editors by providing templates for such very common fair use rationales, which the uploader can change if needed. In fact, such templates already exist, only someone somehow decided that they're not enough (perhaps all of these templates should be deleted, then? Why do they exist nowadays, anyway?). Writing out completely unique fair use rationales for thousands of nearly identical cases is nothing more than an utter waste of time. Esn 06:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, it is so. A good portion of the fair use templates contain reasons that, on their own, are sufficient for fair use. I could go nominate them all for deletion as redundant, since their only use is to give fair use reasons, but unlike some others, I don't engage in WP:POINT. --Powerlord 08:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Our policy require fair use rationales, but let's not get confused with law here, the copyright law only require the use of an image to meet scertain conditions, you don't have to spell anyting out, and no amount of written fair use rationales will prevent anyone from suing if that's what they want. Wheter or not the use of a work actualy qualify as fair use can only be deterined by a judge in a court of law. So our fair use rationales are purely a Wikipedia policy construct, they serve two purposes. Firstly it explains why we believe the image can be legaly used, this is as I mentioned not required by law, but it helps to explain to other users (and re-users of our content) why we believe the use is defensable within the law (and help us identify and weed out uses that may not be defensable). The second reason is that since we are a free content ensyclopedia the use of non-free material is an exception to the general rule, and we require people to carefully explain why they believe each such exception is justified and nessesary per our exception policy in each instance. --Sherool (talk) 08:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, as a copyright lawyer I think the policy/guideline requiring hand-written fair use rationales is rubbish. In most situations there is no legitimate question about whether an image is fair use or not and a template is more than adequate. Why force people to game the system to avoid having their image being deleted? It's an arcane field of law. Laypeople don't have the tools to make an individualized argument. That will result in less cogent rationales that are impossible to automate. Or else they'll do the next best thing, cut and paste a rational from somewhere else, which is also more than adequate. Either way it is a waste of time. It serves no purpose, makes Wikipedia harder to use, and discourages rather than encourages constructive participation. It also flies in the face of standard accepted Internet copyright practices. There are plenty of websites that host user-submitted fair use images, and they do not require individualized legal arguments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs)

Amen. Punctured Bicycle 06:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

You do understand its not our image right? I would hope so. Its not their image either. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 13:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

How required fair use rationales became part of this policy

1. Uncle G's 'bot, presumably at Uncle G's behest, creates Help:Image page under the pretense "TRANSWIKI: Copied from Meta:Help:Image page.". This page includes directives to include rationales in addition to copyright tag templates; such directives did not exist, however, on the aforementioned Meta:Help:Image page.
2. Gareth Aus redirects Wikipedia:Image description page to the aforementioned Help:Image page.
3. Sherool performs a simple redirect circumvention here on the policy page.

Voilà!; a policy is amended by a simple maintenance edit, a redirect for unknown reasons, and directives created by a single user.

To me this is not consensus, and barring these apparent facts being invalidated because histories have been altered or some other compelling reason, I think this requirement of rationales in addition to copyright tag templates should be struck from this policy.

If there is support for its inclusion, a true consensus should be achieved for it to be included again. ¦ Reisio 05:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm far too angry about what is going on to comment with a cool head. What is happening now is one of the worst violations of WP:POINT that I have ever seen. Maybe I should wait a bit - but then again, if I wait much longer, most images in wikipedia will probably be deleted and a great many articles will be left broken. I don't know what to do. I wish someone would stop this bot and revert all of its edits. If someone is trying to make things as difficult as possible for wikipedia editors, while at the same time refusing to give them any help with the gargantuan task which lies ahead (to be completed in no more than one week), they're doing a heckuva job. Editors are left with a choice between altruism (if I don't do this, many articles will be ruined), and common sense (why the hell should I do this, anyway? Don't I have a life to live instead of doing this tedious twaddle). Esn 07:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there is more to it that that. Can't honestrly say where it first came from, but the fact that it's been part of the pollicy without challenge since (at least) 2005 alone should speak volumes about it's support. During that time literaly thousands of users have read and accepted it without challange and it's now an intrinsic part of our copyright policy to the point where the Wikimedia foundation board of trustees adopted it as an absolute requirement in theyr project wide copyright policy resolution (see point #4)[4]. --Sherool (talk) 09:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

According to my investigation, it has not "been part of the pollicy without challenge since (at least) 2005".

It was not until Gareth Aus' redirect on 20060415 that it actually changed, silently, from this...

Fair use rationale

There are a number of tags that are appropriate for fair use images. See Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags#Fair_use for a list.

Not all inclusions of fair use material may violate the GFDL; if there is a significant reason to include the image and no permission can be obtained it may still be allowable under the GFDL — a justification may be necessary.…

...to this...

Fair use rationale

When a non-free image is used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use, a justification for its usage, called a fair use rationale, must be presented in the Image description page. A separate rationale must be provided for each use of the image. If you are claiming fair use, you must include two things on the image description page:

1. An appropriate fair use license tag. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Non-free content for a list.
2. A detailed fair use rationale.

This justification will help other users determine if the "fair use" could apply to a wide variety of uses or a narrow range of uses. It will also help determine if the given claim of fair use is appropriate for Wikipedia in the first place.

Non-free images that do not include both a fair use tag and a detailed fair use rationale will be deleted!…

...all without this actual policy page changing at all. It was not until your edit of 20061230 ( 8+ months later) that this drastic change was reflected here.

Given the stealth and time spans, it does not seem particularly odd to me that we're only now ( 6+ months later ) getting the sort of clashing that we are. ¦ Reisio 09:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The "drastic change" actualy happened over at WP:CSD I believe, changes here merely reflected that AFAIK. As I said I've not kept close track on where exactly everyting has been discussed, much of it is practicaly before my time. Anyway I asume WP:CSD#I6 did not materialise out of thin air, and I've never seen any serious challenges of that policy either. --Sherool (talk) 10:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are once again wrong. WP:CSD#I6 did not even exist until 20060504[5], and didn't require rationales à la WP:FURG until much later, when people started altering it to reflect this policy page. ¦ Reisio 02:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Read what durin wrote in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/FURG. I think it clarifies the matter quite nicely. Warning, he wrote a bunch. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 13:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

...Durin? Please... Anyways, none of that addresses this. ¦ Reisio 20:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who thinks that the transwikification was a pretense has not looked at the wikitext. I suggest learning about transclusion and actually reading what is written at the bottom of the help page. Uncle G 10:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not particularly important what the process was for that edit, the change would still have been made to this policy by a redirect and simple redirect circumvention edit. It wasn't a policy change by consensus either way. ¦ Reisio 17:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Way forward

Ok this is the course of action I suggest. 1) we start work on correcting the currently tagged images. Be that leave them be and let them get deleted (some may have to go this route), fix up the images that are being used correctly, or add some critical commentary about it, and then fix up the rational. I would suggest that if we take this course of action that a proposal be made (or effort go to supporting a current proposal if there is one), to hold off deleting the currently tagged images for 2-3 weeks. By that I mean extend the tag's time period from what it is now to 14-21 days. After this timeperiod ends and the image backlog returns to normal (admins get a chance to review all of these) we turn betacommandbot back on. The bot would be to run at tagging 300 images a day. Thats managable. (as opposed to the literally thousands tagged daily). I will start work on some corporate logos tonight. Lets get moving folks :) —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 21:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• I would support that, if we can agree closure on the text above on what the requirements are to justify cover art (4 voices are a start, but not enough). For new incoming images, tagging should continue perhaps? Jheald 21:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
• Well we can get started now, no point in sitting around. The longer we sit around the more likely the current crop will get deleted. Keep in mind its technically getting near the time that admins can start deleting. So if this is to go through, we need to propose as well to the speedy policy to delay I6 temporarily. By that I mean move back 14-21 days, and after 17-24 days scale back to whatever the current time is. As a result, I'd suggest waiting about another 12-24 hours, then just be bold and insert it into the policy. We can hold off the bot tagging till this current backlog goes down a bit. I think about 300-500 images is reasonable a day. It will take time of course for the bot to finish, but bots are tireless. :) —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 22:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Another editor commented that 300 a day was too low. I agree. Also, this way forward suggestion makes no provision for inactivity in fixing these problems. As you note, "till this current backlog goes down a bit". There needs to be another metric. For example, turn the bot back on July 1st, making it a firm deadline. --Durin 00:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
• The only reason I can see for not turning the bot back on right now is that we're all tired of people bitching about it. -- Ned Scott 08:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I suggest we turn to bot loose again at maxumum possible speed (using some apropriately custum boilplate message) untill it's gone though all non-free images currently in existence with no rationale. We set aside all the dated categories created during this run and say that images in them are subject to deletion after 2-3 (or whatever) weeks after the tagging date rater than the standard 7 days if they still don't have any rationale. Just ammend the speedy criteria to say that special rules apply to images in categories dated X though Y (and add big red blinking notices to those categories to avoid any mishaps by overzealous admins), and remove it again once they are finaly cleared out). Dated categories created after this "big run" should then only contain newly uploaded images and these should be subject to the standard rules. --Sherool (talk) 09:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• If you want to crack down on incorrect fair use (which is about time) you should try to build up some understanding and support. Also design the process to that it will anger people as little as possible, not the reverse. I would suggest the following steps:

1. Go to the the wikiprojects that will have many articles affected and say that you are cracking down on bad fair use, and tell them to look of their non-free image usage and check their guidelines. WP:ALBUM is one example.
2. Change the bot message to be more friendly in general. Specifically:

1. Can you make the bot post only one comment on each talk page, with a list of images in the comment? I know it's more difficult to code, but it would be a lot more friendly.
2. Avoid using too much of the color red. We don't want to make new users feel like they did something terribly wrong. It's just a reminder that they forgot something important on their images.
3. Make the template say that if

1. Change the big red template on the bot's talk page to something friendlier. Now it basically looks like "I know you are here to complain. I don't care. Go away idiot!".
2. Make sure WP:FURG is actually helpful. A lot of editors are used to learning by example rather than reading lengthy texts.
3. Many editors have uploaded a lot of non-free images for the same kind of use. Logos of each sports teams in a series, album covers for each album by an artist, etc. Saying "each rationale must be unique" just won't make any sense to them. Many uses of non-free images are identical in nature, and we have to recognise that. Some people have uploaded a lot of non-free images for the same article. We should tell them to delete the images instead of writing rationales.
4. We have to decide if visual identification satisfies the significance/important contribution/increases understanding requirement in our fair use policies. Then communicate this.
5. Many users will look at the copyright template that is already there, see that it already looks like a good fair use rationale, and wonder what more they are supposed to add. WP:FURG doesn't explain this very well. Once thing thing that has to be added is what article fair use is claimed for, but what more?
6. Actually listen to peoples comments and complaints, assume good faith, and modify the bot message and guidelines to be as helpful and non-alienating as possible.
7. Keep messages and guidelines short, simple and to the point. Try not to come off as bureaucratic snobs.

That's what I can think of for now. --Apoc2400 10:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• The reason not to turn the bot back on now is that if it says "otherwise the image will be deleted in 10 days", that should be realistic. Otherwise it brings warnings like that into disrepute. I think there is broad agreement that we don't want to cause unnecessary collateral damage to wikipedia, and unnecessary bruising to users, by deleting images if it is patently clear that they are fair use. That is why there seems to be broad support for a stay of execution while we work through the tag mountain that BCbot has already created. After that time, BCbot should be run at a rate which matches what we can reasonably process. We will get there in the end.

Some people have said we need the bot to identify the scale of the problem. I can see that point. Can I suggest in the short term it might be helpful to modify the bot to count and list the pages, but not edit them -- i.e. identify them, but not tag them. Such lists could be very useful to AWB crews trying to clear up the problem. Jheald 10:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• I tend to agree with Apoc2400 on a few points. We've gopt to remember that Wikipedia is a collaboration. That means getting out there and selling this idea. So I think before the bot gets turned on again, let's get out there and inform the relevant projects, get some reasonable guidance and some examples together, sort out a timescale, and then go with it. If we could get all that done over the next few days, then I think Durin's suggestion of turning the bot back on from July 1st, and resuming speedy deletions on the same date allows a reasonable period. People want to workshop a message for Wikiprojects below? Steve block Talk 10:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I fully support the idea of holding off on all images tagged by the bot for deletion until July 1st. There are a massive number of images, there is no immediate danger, and we want to promote good rationales written with thought and care, rather than tons of them slapped on haphazardly and rapidly. July 1st seems like a reasonable deadline for the current number of articles tagged, but I do not have a way to measure how many more the bot still needs to tag. What is the best way to put this into effect? --Strangerer (Talk) 11:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• Well as I said above I think we should just let the bot tag them all ASAP (with a modified message not indicating imminent deletion and some "anti-flood" feature). Having it create a list is probably not workable since the list might simply be too big for a MediaWiki page, categories scale a lot better. Once that's done we see how many images there are and descide what kind of timeframe is apropriate for allowing rationale writing. Once the to-be-descided deadline have passed images that still don't have rationales can be (manualy!) deleted. --Sherool (talk) 11:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

See also proposals by Betacommand at WP:AN#BetacommandBot and Fair use -- essentially he suggests a timetable for running the bot at full tilt from July 1. Jheald 12:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Workshopping a notice for WikiProjects

Based on Wikipedia's non-free content criteria, all non-free images and other media are required to have a fair use rationale describing how the use of the image in each article is in line with Wikipedia's policy and fair use law. This means the image must illustrate an item or point under critical commentary within the article—it cannot be used simply to decorate the article. It is proposed that a bot will run from July 1st (a partial run of the bot was recently conducted) and from that date images will be deleted under speedy deletion Criterion I6, which states that "Any image or media without a fair use rationale may be deleted seven days after it is uploaded. Boilerplate fair use templates do not constitute a fair use rationale".

Each image requires a fair use rationale for each article it is used in. At {{Non-free media rationale}}, you'll find a template that will output a suitable rationale when correctly filled in. Some examples of non-template formatted rationales are at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale examples. The expectation is that most image description pages will be edited to comply with the fair use crieteria, and that thus the disturbance to Wikipedia will be minimal. Thanks for your collaboration in this process, which is a major step towards ensuring that Wikipedia's legal obligations and its mission are fulfilled.

• Please improve. Steve block Talk 10:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Seems pretty reasonable - made some very minor mods. Cheers, Ian Rose 12:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I've had a go at it. But what bothers me is that Criterion 16 is very poorly worded and, in a few respects, is unclear. Is that what I copy-edited recently? (Was shoved into the policy page raw, and of course the old version persists at Speedy Deletion.) Tony 12:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Modified a bit making it clear the rationale have to explain how it meet Wikipedia policy, not just fair use law. --Sherool (talk) 12:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

What exactly is the purpose of this notice? It seems like it's just restating some of the stuff at this page and talk page without explaining why it's relevant to any WikiProjects. ShadowHalo 12:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

See the section above. It was suggested we add a notice on the talk pages of relevant wikiprojects to give them a heads up. If you don't feel it does justice to its purpose, please edit. I was looking at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory/Culture, and I think maybe a bot might be useful in adding the notice to WikiProjects. There's a lot that would be affected if you ask me. Steve block Talk 18:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to say this, I like what you guys have come up with :D. My suggestion is to hold off the bot. We can turn it back on once we have these images under control. When we do turn it back on, it will tag only 300-500 images daily. Thats a manageable amount. The critical part here is that we make sure that we make use of what fair use images we do justify. Use them in commentary. I would love to help out, but I have to move out of my college dorm. But as July 1 appraoches I will be assisting in justifying and making use of them for critical commentary. Most if not all of these images have a story behind them. Tell us what it is. I was just helping someone on IRC with this, its doable for the vast majority of our albums. Someone had to create the image, who is that? Whats the story behind the design? If the album cover is really not special (just a picture of the band with text on it saying that its XXX band), then I'd suggest perhaps using a small portion of the music. something like 10 seconds, if you can justify it. Folks, lets use this to improve our coverage, we have the ability. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 19:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think I must be misunderstanding something here. If the album cover doesn't have critical commentary, we're going to use a music sample in the infobox instead? ShadowHalo 23:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

If there is nothing to comment on the album, and there is something to comment on the music its a possibility. But you would have to justify it. Also please keep in mind that music does not help the deaf ;), same as images don't help the blind. So in both cases you should have a description explaining the style etc of the image. I'm not advocating using music, just mentioning it as a possibility, if it were done for an article with non-free music there had better be some serious justification for it. But really same thing for images :). Use the image with commentary. Its not hard :) —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 23:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I6

It looks like we have some decent amount of support for this action, I think its drawing near time where we need to start moving on something, otherwise the images that are currently tagged are going to be in danger of deletion. I'm going to suggest that we go ahead and modify the fair use criteria as suggested above. From there we need to go ahead and start tagging to delay the deletion of the images until July 1. Find the categories they are in, and make a note of it on those pages. (should be the ones with a bunch of images in them). Also leave a note on Category:Candidates for speedy deletion about the delay. I must get back to packing up to move back home, but I hope someone takes this and runs with this. Otherwise we risk the images getting deleted. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 20:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about it, but I've edited Template:CSD/Subcategories to put up a note to this effect. I'm going to be away from the 'net for the weekend though, so it would be good if somebody could watch this, in case it gets reverted or automatically regenerated or something. Jheald 21:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Jheald I would also add your wording change as well. I will wait a bit, then I will make the change. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 21:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Good, the page is protected from me still :-) Jheald 21:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Tags added to the top of CAT:DFUI and CAT:NR. Also WP:CSD I6 commented out, and replaced with note. Jheald 11:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Thebainer has reversed out the change to CSD I6, and told me in talk:

If you want to alter the criteria for speedy deletion, you ought to propose any change at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion; many editors who are concerned with the business of deletion will have that page on their watchlists and expect to see proposals suggested there. If you really want to propose a change, I suggest you do one that is confined in operation to the images that BetacommandBot has been tagging. --bainer (talk) 11:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I cannot be on the net any more this weekend. Please, can somebody else take this up. Jheald 11:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Images in lists and galleries

The following change needs to be made:

8. Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.

The above discussions make it patently obvious that there is no consensus for the premise that images in lists and galleries are always unacceptable. An image which significant contributes to an article does not lose its signficance simply because it is in a list or gallery. In some cases, lists or galleries do significantly contribute to an article. If 25 images each contribute a unique significance to the understanding of the article's topic, then those images should be allowed, whether they are in the body of the text, in a list, or in a gallery. The criterion should be about what each image contributes, not whether it is in a list or gallery. I believe there is consensus that using images in navigational or user-interface elements is merely decorative, so I'll concede that part should remain. DHowell 20:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually no. Fair use gallaries are not useful unless there is critical commentary. The number is not important, but if there is nothing discussiong what is in the image, then its decorative. The only case where the number of images really matters is keeping in mind that most of the world is on Dialup', which is another real reason to keep the number of images on a page down, free or non free. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 21:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Eagle here. I think it is quite clear from the discussion above that fair use galleries are usually not acceptable. Discographies should not show each album cover in a list for example. --Apoc2400 04:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

"Fair use galleries are not useful unless there is critical commentary." Huh? How is the usefulness of a gallery determined by the copyright status of its components? Or is it your contention that "all" galleries (fair use or free) are not useful unless there is "critical commentary"? Is this image, for example, useless in the article about Albaninan currency unless there is "critical commentary" about each coin and its image and design? And what is wrong with a gallery if the commentary is entirely incoprorated into the image captions in the gallery?

Also, it is not "quite clear" from the discussion above that fair use galleries are usually not acceptable. What is clear is that there is fair number of people who won't accept fair use galleries under any circumstances, but they have failed to convince me or many other people that their use should be prohibited. Therefore there is no consensus, and no valid policy to prohibit them outright. DHowell 21:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not an isolated instance of policy, but a statement summarizing policies found elsewhere. Non-free images can only be used when they are accompanied by critical commentary. This commentary is not provided in lists and galleries. That's why that wording is there. (ESkog)^(Talk) 03:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no. There is no policy which requires "critical commentary" to accompany all non-free images. There is clear consensus that non-free images of corporate logos can used for identification of the subject of an article, for example. And the long-standing fair-use policy has been that the image must contribute significantly to the article, not that there must be "critical commentary". Images can contribute significantly to an article without there being any textual commentary at all. There has even been U.S. case law that has effectively said that a gallery of images itself could constitute "critical commentary" of the subject of a work, and thus be fair use. DHowell 10:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use is not a consensus issue

Having read the debate on boilerplates and image deletion for several days, I just realized why we're going so far afield on this. The problem is that we're applying Wikipedia's consensus model to answering a legal question. Alas, copyright issues are decided by judges and not Wikipedians.

What I'm getting at is that a question like "should we allow album cover art on discographies" or "do we need individualized rationales for use of corporate logos" or "is critical commentary about the image required for it to be used" are really two questions in one. First, is it legal, and second, should it be permitted on WP.

I don't think it's appropriate to use our system of discussion, consensus, debate, proposal, etc., for deciding something is legal. That is a question for copyright lawyers, or laypeople reading the opinions of judges and lawyers. I don't care of the opinion is 10-1 or 1-10, or if it's a longstanding guideline or an issue already decided, if it's legal it's legal. If not, it's not. If anyone gets sued the defense is fair use, not "we all had a discussion and agreed to it by consensus." Of course if it's illegal or the legality is subject to serious question, it should not be here, period.

If something is legal there is still a question of whether it should be permitted on Wikipedia. Generally, yes. But User:durin raises a serious if debatable point about free content. We should not allow something here if the use, as copied, distributed, and modified is going to be illegal (setting aside the question of things legal in one country being illegal in another, a different issue entirely). That issue is indeed subject to our consensus approach.

I strongly urge that we try to get some senior administrators or Wikipedia staff interested in this issue so they can tell us what they want to do, from a corporate point of view, about satisfying themselves as to the legality of different kind of articles. That's how every other organization other than Wikipedia decides its copyright policy -- they ask their company lawyer. And they will come back to us with a decision -- yes, you can use album cover art on discographies if you think it's appropriate for wikipedia or no, you cannot. If the lawyer's answer is yes, we create a template for that and move on. Or we can as a consensus decision decide that despite being legal we don't want that here, create a policy or guideline about that, and move on.

Please correct and forgive me if any of this has already been said or done. As I said, this is just from reading a few days worth of the discussion, not from a deep understanding of Wikipedia governance or history. 23:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree. this debate can ultimately only be solved at the top level, meaning we need clearer policies from the foundation. Malc82 23:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation has already issued its statement. Most of the quibbling here is how to interpret it and whether or not we should be more restrictive in some respects than the Foundation's licensing policy requires. ShadowHalo 23:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Our fair use policies as is are substantially stricter than legal requirements- legal issues aren't really that pertinent in discussing our fair use policy. The reason we have such strict free use requirements is because the foundation's aim is to produce a high-quality free-content encyclopedia. Thus the conflict is, in broad terms between those who feel that Wikipedia should produce as high-quality an encyclopedia as possible, disregarding the "free-content" goal, and those who feel that wikipedia should hold on to its principles of free content. In summary, no, you are mistaken. The extent of our nonfree content policies is not a legal question. Borisblue 23:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The WMF is certainly interested in copyright on the projects they support. However, A) they are presently without a general counsel (since Brad resigned some months ago) and are unlikely to give any legal advice until new counsel is found. B) The WMF has always maintained that they are entitled to safe harbor status under the provisions of the DMCA. As a result, it is the WMF position that they are not liable for any user's action that results in copyright infringment. As a consequence of this, the WMF rarely engages in any copyright disputes unless first contacted by the copyright holder (choosing to take a more active role could actually cause them to lose safe harbor status and put them at greater risk). Hence it has generally been the de facto position of the WMF that deciding how to use materials legally is the user's responsibility and the user would be the liable party in the event of infringment. Most WMF pronouncments on copyright are actually of the "free content" type you identify above, i.e. setting policies that are in addition to any applicable legal requirments. Dragons flight 23:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

There may be some quite good legal reasons that the WMF doesn't want to make itself legally liable by issuing legal advice. Instead, perhaps the best people to approach to give us the really expert assessment we need on what is absolutely reliably safe would be the Fair Use Project at Stanford. This seems to be exactly what they were set up for. Jheald 12:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I would interprete the contributions above to say: "essentially it's the uploaders business. As long as (s)he doesn't violate any laws and there is a fair use rationale, there's no WMF policy to delete these images". For example, the current resolution clearly allows logos to be used for identification without being discussed in the article (Point 3). I think that some users are just exploiting the situation to push their own free-license agenda. NB: It may or may not be that the WMF ultimately wants to have a free-license only Wikipedia, but their current position is that fair use is allowed. Malc82 18:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use is a consensus issue, because the Foundation leaves it up to each project. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/FURG#The_Foundation.27s_Resolution:Licensing_policy_argument. ¦ Reisio 19:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The legalities are not up for decision here because they depend on the copyright and fair use law in the United States as interpreted by courts, not by Wikipedians (or in other countries, the applicable laws using whatever means they have to decide). However, as the discussion so far makes clear Wikipedia management and wikipedians want a tighter standard: to be appropriate an image must be legal and it must also satisfy some further guideline and policy limits having to do with free use content. -- anon

The law isn't spelled out explicitly enough for it to be relevant. What's relevant is our consensus, something we've never had on this issue. ¦ Reisio 01:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Paris Hilton Mugshot - copyright FU vio?

Please see this: [6]. People keep readding a copyrighting mugshot photo. Since two other free ones are there, I believe it's a FU vio to use the mugshot. Is re-adding it against copyright/FU rules? People will not stop there and I don't want to get blocked for helping enforce FU. I think I used my 3rr already. Can someone help? Cornea 23:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

For additional context, there is discussion regarding the inclusion of the image on the talk page, here. I have participated in the discussion, but not in the actual mugshot reversion. --Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 23:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I have amended it per CSC 6250 and 6252 (g). Here is a copy --

Per GOVERNMENT CODE SECTION 6250-6270, 6250 states,

In enacting this chapter, the Legislature, mindful of the right of individuals to privacy, finds and declares that access to information concerning the conduct of the people's business is a fundamental and necessary right of every person in this state.

6252 (g) states,

"Writing" means any handwriting, typewriting, printing, photostating, photographing, photocopying, transmitting by electronic mail or facsimile, and every other means of recording upon any tangible thing any form of communication or representation, including letters, words, pictures, sounds, or symbols, or combinations thereof, and any record thereby created, regardless of the manner in which the record has been stored.

Seicer (talk) (contribs) 00:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Accessing does not mean free. We need to be able to adapt/modify the work. ShadowHalo 00:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a non-free image of a living person. Perhaps if she were shown behind bars in a jail cell then you could claim that it's a "unique historical image" or some such. As it is, though, this image should be deleted. nadav (talk) 08:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC) It seems that the photo is actually in the public domain: someone called the Sheriff's Dept. a while ago about the Mel Gibson photo to check this. I have updated the image description page accordingly. nadav (talk) 10:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Police departments don't put mug shots in the public domain. Everyone in the country but some Wikipedia editors with a fetish about the issue considers them public domain. It enhances their self-importance to remove them. I defy anyone to provide any evidence that any law enforcement agency has ever tried to enforce a copyright over a mug shot. Nicmart 14:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use images in discographies -test case

Please see Talk:The_Beatles_discography#Poll_on_the_use_of_fair-use_images_on_this_page_and_the_interpretation_of_policy which is acting as a test case in this matter. Jooler 09:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Led Zeppelin

There are several screenshots from Led Zeppelin concert DVDs that have been uploaded for fair use on articles about the DVD. They seem to have turned into fair game and have been used in several other articles without any fair use rationale provided. I have taken many of them down, which I think is the right thing to do. For example, the Royal Albert Hall article. I do want Wikipdia to have quality images for the articles, but isn't inappropriate use of images creating some legal jeapordy? I took all the photos down from the Led Zeppelin article as well, leaving it looking a little barren. —Gaff ^ταλκ 06:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Images need to have a rationale for each article they are used in, so it's entierly apropriate to remove images from articles when there is no rationale present to justify theyr use in that article. The actual legal jeapordy is probably not something we should loose too much sleep over, I'm not a big fan of the whole "it's the law!" style of argument in these cases (as long as the ORTS or foundation office respond to legal takedown notices in a timely fashon the use of any one image is very unlikely to become a real legal issue). It's rater a matter of core project policies, we are a free content project, so seperate written justification is reqiured to explain why each image is nessesary, and otherwise meet all of our criteria for each use. --Sherool (talk) 09:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Relevant Signpost Article

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2007-06-04/Dutch_government is a nice example of how we can get free use images simply by asking the relevant body. Borisblue 06:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

As well, it's an example we can cite when making those requests. --Dhartung | Talk 00:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

TV Screenshots for World Trade Center in Popular Culture

Ok The Twin Towers are gone, but we can still remember them. World Trade Center in popular culture page is a long long list of the Twin's in movies, cartoons, music videos, etc.

I want to add several images of the Twin Towers in Cartoons or TV Shows. They are only meant to show the Twin Towers in Cartoons or TV Shows, that it. The page would be much more intresting, and dont you think the Average Joe would be more intrested in looking a pictures than reading about it?

The problem is they are TV Screens. From Copyrighted Shows, etc.

Is it ok to post these pictures? Shouldnt I say, When the Picture was Made, say 1998. Who owns the Show, say Viacom. What channel the Show is own, say the CW. What is the show, say Friends. Wouldnt that be ok?

They wouldnt be used on any other picture, just on this one page for several people to view.

These pictures, would be an excellent way for people two remember the World Trade Center.

Please help! I really want for these pictures to be included, due to my wierd obsession with the Twin Towers ;)

Is it not reasonable to find a free image of the towers though? Before they fell? —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 21:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Thats not what I meant. I dont need pics of the Twin's Standing, I have pics of the Twins in Movies and Cartoons, and they would be great in the Pop Culture section.

The question you have to answer is not, do they make the article look good, but does the article need the images? Without the images, is the reader's understanding of the topic compromised? If the answer is yes, then that satisfies WP:NFCC #8. I'm going to guess that in this case, they're not necessary for the article. Feel free to argue your case, however. howcheng {chat} 22:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Well the pictures (DONT HAVE TO) be there. But it would let the reader know what they are reading about. For example:

"In Madonna's 1998 hit, Ray of Light, The Twin Towers where shown, breifely, 4 times in the Koyaanisqatsi inspired music video, two from street level and two aerial dusk shots."

I'm sure the reader would like to see a picture of that. It would be much more intresting to see images that go along with the subject they are reading.

Now if I'm allowed to put the pics up (which I still havent gotten a firm YES or NO awnser) I wouldnt clutter up the page, just show 3 or 4 per sighting, for example TV, Music Videos, Cartoons, and those couple of images would only be the most prominent one. Not every sighting would have a picture.

The pictures, yes, would decorate the page, but also show the reader the sighting, while they read about it.

What you need to do is go through the Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria. Non-free images that you want to include in an article have to meet all ten of them in order for them to OK. The hardest one to meet is usually #8, which requires that the image increase the reader's understanding in a way that words alone cannot. If the reader can understand the text without the image, then it's not necessary to the article and can't be used. Some good examples are the baseball card in Billy Ripken, the Pepsi ad in Edward F. Boyd, and the magazine cover in Demi Moore. Just "looking nice" is not acceptable. Hope that helps. howcheng {chat} 02:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes or No? I just need an awnser, the pictures, they seem to meet all requierments, and as Number 8, the pics would help the reader see the World Trade Center sighting, instead of just reading it they can also see an image of it.

If the the point is only to to lillusrate stuff like "in such and such movie the WTC is seen for 3 seconds as the camera pans across the skyline" it'd say no. The towers where landmarks and a prominent part of the NYC skyline and so they obviously appear in the background in a LOT of movies and stuff set in that area, I'd question the need to even mention brief background apperances, let alone illustrage them with non-free images. --Sherool (talk) 07:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Image Policy

See Matoran and Toa. The images that are being removed have been on the article for god knows how long. Why are they suddenly in violation of the policy? Nothing was done before, why not? It seems like a blatant attack to me. Oh, and somebody other than those removing the images answer this. I'm not going to listen to them cuz they won't listen to me. ElectricTurahk 21:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep this discussion in one place. There are already a few good explanations at the proper section of Talk:Toa. This page is more for general commentary on the policy, not specific violations of it. (ESkog)^(Talk) 21:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, then allow me to attempt to make a generalized comment in regards to the comment that more than just those who are opposed to me and are watching the Toa page will see. Why does it appear as if there is a sudden increase in finding loopholes with which to enforce this rule? Several of the Toa images, due note I use these solely as examplse, have been on Wikipedia for over a year, and no use of them has been restricted up until now. Why the change? That is what I want to know. ElectricTurahk 21:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Simple, its easier to find the pages that use many fair use images now. Due to a bot I ran, and User:Durin's parsing of the output, we have a current uptodate snapshot of what images are in what articles. Some images turn out to be ok, but it has to be clearly justified on how the usage of the image is not just for If the image is part of some critical commentary they are fine. Some of the images on that page have critical commentary, and should be fine, if you figure out which ones they are, then feel free to add them in. Also please make sure the rational on the images is up to par. (See the rational guideline for that. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 21:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, okay, I'll work on that... Now, another, unrelated, example, just to make sure that I'll be able to work this out - would all of the images on the various Gym Leader pages and Elite Four members also be breaking this policy? ElectricTurahk 21:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Elite Four, yes, the others I'm not sure. We really don't need an image of every member. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 22:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Were the article more thorough, I think it could be justified. But there's an issue, for example, with Glacia, who only has four sentences of text. ShadowHalo 22:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not just one image with them all in it, I'm sure there is something like that floating around. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 22:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[outdent] That's actually less likely than one would expect. Google doesn't appear to be turning much up (though I'm amused that Ashley Tisdale turns up). The four members are never really shown to be a group, per se, and from what I can tell they all appear in separate episodes on the TV series. ShadowHalo 22:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Consensus then Guideline

Given that A CD cover, album cover, or boom cover used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not justify this by reference to attributes of the cover art. The mere fact that a picture has been placed on the cover of an album to sell it is not enough. is disputed, and a recent change in the guideline, and not required by the foundational licensing agreement, I'm removing it from the guideline page unless a consensus can be developed for it. Given that Jimbo specifically gives that as an example of appropriate fair use

My own view, which is at the extreme end of the spectrum I know, and therefore not (yet) formal policy in every case, is that we ought to have almost no fair use, outside of a very narrow class of images that are of unique historical importance. The cover of an album is the best and only sensible illustration of an article about that album, for example.

— Jimbo Wales

here, it shouldn't be added without a real consensus that we want to be stricter than we need to be, and than we've been in the past. WilyD 13:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

agree (to keep this prohibition out of the guideline) until and unless there's a formal policy banning album covers. It's not just the albums, the same argument would go for almost any use of a product label, corporate logo, photo of a copyrighted product or building, etc., to identify the subject. Humans are visual creatures and we need icons and symbols to understand things fully. Everybody else does it, nearly every other source I've seen uses fair use images to identify the subject they're talking about, whether it's a news broadcast or article, a TV commercial, a nonfiction book, or a website. Unless we want to drive Wikipedia back into the stone age we should allow graphics for readers to quickly identify the subject matter. Imposing a new ban now would mean deleting thousands of album covers, and if the same logic is adopted elsewhere tens of thousands of images, perhaps most of all the imagery on Wikipedia. If free content is the issue we should tag the images and use them in such a way that downstream users can take or leave the images without severe harm to the article.Wikidemo 14:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

"Nearly every other source I've seen uses fair use images to identify the subject" — have you read an encyclopedia recently? --Cyde Weys 14:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there a recent encyclopedia? As far as I know they're all dead. Wikidemo 14:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow, so not only have you not read an encyclopedia recently, you don't even know that there are any ones still alive. Brilliant. And we're supposed to trust you about fair use images why? --Cyde Weys 15:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

You can trust me because I don't engage in ridiculous sparring or ad-hominem attacks on other Wikipedians. I stand by my statement. We are not living in a text only world. A Wikipedia without images to illustrate the subject it covers would be an anachronism Wikidemo 15:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

A question to the rest of you: Would you take driving advice from someone who's never even seen a car? And an assignment for Wikidemo: go to your local library today and look in the Reference section. You'll be amazed. --Cyde Weys 15:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

This is almost impossible to work out. Britannica uses a copyrighted photo of the Beatles in the lead for identification - [7] - which of course doesn't indicate in the slightest whether they have permission. I suspect this'll be the case with almost everything Wikidemo finds - can't tell whether it's "fair use" or "use with permission, though fair use would cover you". WilyD 15:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully request that anyone in this discussion follow the Wikipedia:Etiquette guideline rather than attacking other Wikipedians' credibility to score points over matters subject to reasonable disagreement.Wikidemo 16:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It's clear that apart from what laws or WMF policies dictate, Wikipedia policies and guidelines should be created through a consensus-finding process (I really think this is a no-brainer). So of course I support the removal of that statement. As for Cyde Weys: please try to stay civil and on topic. Malc82 16:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Why are we comparing ourselves to paper encyclopedias? We're looking to surpass Britannica in our breadth and depth, not mimick it. ShadowHalo 16:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Mmmm, I support that language, we are the free encyclopedia. You need to justify why you need to use a fair use image, and it should be there for more then just "this is what they sold it with". If I gave you a list of 100 album covers, you would be lucky to identify 20 out of 100 based on the cover alone. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 17:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Disagree, but that's not the question here. We're the "free encyclopedia" because everyone on the net can use it for free, it's not the "free-content only, be bold but use fair-use images as sparsely as possible encyclopedia". We'll have to agree to disagree on our "ideal wikipedia" imaginations, but as long as only a small minority of Wikipedians shares your view, it shouldn't be on the policy page. Malc82 18:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

You're incorrect about the meaning of "free encyclopedia". See, for example, Wikipedia:About where it links to Free content in the first sentence. See Wikipedia:Copyrights where it explains what the policy (not just guideline or essay) says can be used. Do you have any evidence at all for the claim that "only a small minority of Wikipedians shares (Eagle 101's) view"? I believe Eagle 101 was referring to one of the founding principles of Wikipedia, for which consensus can fairly be claimed among WP editors who haven't left and gone to work on Citizendium or other projects. This specific point, about not using unfree images without an article-specific fair-use rationale (that word has an "e" on the end) meeting the ten-point fair-use requirements, fits WP core policy which has consensus. It would be reasonable to argue about how much specific reference the article needs to have, or about how much fair-use tagging is required rather than advised, or to argue about which classes of image (album cover, box picture, TV screenshot, whatever) should have tougher or easier requirements; but it's not reasonable to claim that this is some new requirement or some sort of attack. People are simply trying to bring the content up to our published standards where the collaborative process hasn't yet met them. Barno 20:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, the discussion us (or should be) if a fair use image used solely for identification (not for decoration, but also without critical commentary about the image) is acceptable or not (assuming it has a rationale, isn't replaceable by a free image, etcetera). I think it is sufficient, and I see nothing in the copyright laws (but IANAL) or the Foundation statements contradicting this, but only a group of editors pushing for a much stricter interpretation of the fair use rules. Of course, when they would have a consensus for this, then it should be followed (there is no reason that we can't have stricter rules), but without this consensus, there is no reason that we must follow these stricter rules. As for comparing with other encyclopedias: apples and oranges... They do use copyrighted images, but probably do so by paying to use them (they aren't free either). These possibilities aren't available for Wikipedia. Fram 20:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

To Barno: I don't know how often I will have to state that in these debates: I don't question the fair use rationale part, it is a WMP policy and thus there's no point in questioning it here. You're completely misrepresenting my statement. Please read the first sentence of this section (or my first edit) to see what I was referring to. Currently, the WMP policy doesn't ban the usage of fair-use images. Discussing if it is a "small" minority is moot, since very obviously it is far from consensus. Btw, I always wrote it with "e", why are you bringing that up? Malc82 21:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

what are we voting on?

Are we just talking or is this a request for consensus? If so, on what subject and how broad is the scope of the question? I'm a little new to these things. As I understand it the question is "do you agree or disagree with adding as an example for this guideline article that non-free use album cover art may not be used in an article unless the article contains critical commentary about the cover art itself? Is that the proposal? If so please make your vote clear, in addition to any debate on the matter.

to make clear, I disagree with that proposal for reasons stated above (I said above that I agreed with deleting the example) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs)

I also disagree with this example (and thus agree with its removal), per Jimbo's comment, per consensus, per U.S. fair use law, and per what ought to be common sense. DHowell 15:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

We're not voting. All discussion on Wikipedia is supposed to be aimed at reaching consensus. --Tony Sidaway 00:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:VOTE is evil. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice theory, which I support very much, but in practice voting is very common on Wikipedia. I don't see a reason to vote here however, since it's obvious that the statement in question is not consensus and thus shouldn't be there. Malc82 07:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

So we're not voting? Okay...so the lack of consensus to add that cover art example means it shouldn't go in, right? Does that mean it's actually okay in an article about an album to use the cover art to identify the album but without talking about the art as such? Or does it simply mean we aren't using the example? This consensusizng has me confused. Wikidemo 12:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Free software screenshot replacement ideas

Ok, I am working on the Column (typography) article and I thought it would be neat to have a screen shot from MS Word of the default page layout when a user choose 3 columns. But then I got to thinking about fair use and all that jazz. So I was wondering if there was any open source document publishing software that doesn't have a non-free copyright on the software's GUI. I think there may be a fair use rationale on using MS Word because it is arguably the most commonly used application, however free is always better, right? So does anyone have any idea how I could show a screenshot of a multicolumn layout inside of a desktop publishing software interface and also make that image copyleft in some regard?-Andrew c 02:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of two software solutions: Scribus, an open source (GPL) desktop publishing software, and TeX, a typesetting system. (I think TeX does columned-layouts, but I am not entirely sure; Scribus I am pretty sure would do.) I could get a screenshot off of my Ubuntu Linux machine, which has no non-free graphical elements, if you like. Just drop me a note at my talk page. (I probably won't be able to get to it until later this weekend or early next week.) --Iamunknown 05:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

According to Commons:Licensing, the problem with taking screenshots of otherwise free programs, such as OpenOffice, appears to be with the desktop environment's widget set not being free, thus making the entire screenshot non-free.

You may still be able to claim it as fair use, but you then have to write one of those annoying justification reasons. --Powerlord 13:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. The link to the commons licensing helped (why didn't I go there first?) Anyway, the article currently has two images and that is almost too many, so I think I'll hold off on this idea until the content grows. If someone with a free OS with a free office program has some free time and would like to make a screenshot of how a simple multicolumn layout looks in the program and upload it to the commons, that would be most excellent. Thanks again.-Andrew c 19:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I just uploaded Image:Two column lipsum.png to Commons, in case you might still find it useful. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 21:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

An example of a good fair use image

I hereby submit Image:Haret Hreik Before After 22 July 2006.png as an example of a good fair use image, complete with a detailed fair use rationale. Also, the image is extremely important (in a way that most album cover images could never be). --Cyde Weys 16:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Question re: album/CD/record covers

Just to be on the safe side - would a photograph taken of a record cover as well as the record itself be under the same restrictions as normal album art (e.g. as found in the album infobox) or would it be eligible for upload under a Creative Commons license? WATP  ^(talk) • _(contribs) 16:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if a copyrighted work is the central focus of a photograph then it is still copyrighted. You can't just take a picture of something to make it free. However, if a copyrighted work is incidental, e.g. if you are taking a picture of Times Square and you happen to get some billboards in the shot, then it can be free. --Cyde Weys 16:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I found a more specific example of what I meant - something like this, showing the record and a minimal amount of the cover art. Still not free? WATP  ^(talk) • _(contribs) 16:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, you managed to find an in-between example. The art IS the central focus here, particularly the design of the center label of the disc itself. The cover art is a central focus and about 1/2 is shown. That's less than the full work but I would say that's more than is strictly necessary to prove a point or make a critical commentary. Therefore not free. Although I haven't seen any discussion of this here before and therefore don't know of any policy, consensus, or guideline, my personal suggestion is to be on the safe side and treat it as having the same fair use concerns as a head-on picture of the cover art. There's a second concern, that there is a separate copyright in the photograph / arrangement, and you have to evaluate that for non-free content concerns (are you the photographer, capable of releasing that to the public?).Wikidemo 19:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The point of the image, presumably, was to display the form factors of the different media. The cover art is not intended to be the central focus, although there presumably was some intention to show generically the kind of packaging that was typical for such media - eg scale, detail, visual imapact, etc. For that purpose, fair use is surely not in any real doubt. But wikidemo is surely right, the image can't be seen as completely free with that much of the original art included. Jheald 20:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Album Covers

I have a question: on Yolanda Adams discography, a particular user is removing the album covers saying that they should not be used in a gallery. I am almost positive that they can be used in discography chars (everyone else has them). Is this user correct? Thank you all for your time! Jgcarter 18:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Covers cannot be used in lists or discographies unless there is critical commentary about them. They can be in the articles about such albums, singles or books, but not in the lists. The fact that other lists have them is no precedent, as eventually every list should be trimmed (that is, maintaining the current criteria). -- ReyBrujo 18:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow! That was quick! Thanks a lot. I just want to see if I understand what you are saying: does this mean that if a discography chart was on the actual page for the artist, it would be okay? Or does it mean no lists whatsoever? Jgcarter 18:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Correct categorisation of publicity photos

Category:Publicity Photographs is a large category of photographs associated with an image tag of some sort. It was incorrectly placed in Category:Photographs (which is for articles about photographs). I moved it to Category:Wikipedia images. Could someone who knows about fair-use and copyright and publicity photographs please put Category:Publicity Photographs and its subcategories in the right image categories? Thanks. Carcharoth 21:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Batmobile

It's a mess. Many unsourced images, images lacking fair use rationales, decorative copyrighted images, and a gallery to boot. If someone else has the time (and patience), the whole article/list needs some attention. ShadowHalo 21:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

In case someone starts cleaning it up, the version I think you are referring to is this one. From what I can see, there is one decorative image (the one at the top right). The others are all fair-use images used to illustrate sections of the articles, with a bit of commentary accompanying each one. They may lack fair-use rationales, but calling these decorative is going too far in my opinion. The gallery, I agree, is excessive. What is needed there is for each image to have something written about it so it can be placed in its own section in the main article. I also noticed you put OR and lack of references tags on it. There is a lot of material in that article - do you think you could actually point out the OR? As for references, I find it helpful to look at external links. Inexperienced (or lazy) editors often stick their references there. And indeed, there is a link to a history of the Batmobile website. I would guess that most of the claims come from that website and others linked there. Of course, citing properly would be nice, but that is a style and layout tag, not a "lacks references" tag.

But I shouldn't get off-topic. I'm concerned that when I look at that article I don't see the "decorative" images, but I see legitimate fair-use images. If the article talked about Batman villains, and then someone stuck a Batmobile picture in that article, that would be decorative for me. Am I missing something in the definition of 'decorative'? Carcharoth 22:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

What I mean is that the Cartoons, 1968 - 1986 and Batman Beyond, 1999 sections, for example, make little or no commentary that require an image. How does "The animated series Batman Beyond had a flying vehicle referred to as the Batmobile (in the show's future era, flying cars had become commonplace)" require a picture? ShadowHalo 23:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. How about actually putting that on the talk page of the article so people editing the article get some tips on how to improve the article? Something like "each section that is illustrated by a picture must discuss, with sources, the actual shape and appearance of the vehicle, in order for a valid fair-use claim to be made for the picture". Carcharoth 00:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Useful, educational, and entertaining, does not automatically make an image fair use. (Encyclopedias have to pay for pictures just like everyone else does) Also, fair use applies to collections of images as well as images: an image of the Batmobile might be fair use, where a collection of Batman related images might not. Since the Batmobile is particularly iconic, images of the Batmobile form an significant part of the total Batman iconography, and in fairness, should not be used without the permission of the copyright holder. Note, because it is a significant proportion, not just because the picture is iconic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.101.166.15 (talk) 01:06, 18 June 2007

Does the relevant guideline make this clear enough? If not, then this might be a good example (though I'd be interested to see how others feel about this example as well). I'd agree that the gallery can go (as it already has done), but what about the images accompanying text describing the changes in appearance and history of the Batmobile? Where do you draw the line? 1 image, 2, 3, 5, 8, 20? Also, some of the older pictures of the Batmobile are not, to my mind, iconic. Some are rather old and obscure. The iconic nature itself changed over time, so that argument might be difficult to sustain. Carcharoth 01:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Excessive quoting in references

Regarding articles such as Wikipedia community#References:

Full disclosure, I am of the opinion that many of these excessive references, and the excessive quotes for them, are apart of a POV push on several articles on Wikipedia. Quoting in a reference template is an optional field, and it's a bit bizarre to see it used compulsively like this. Regardless of that, the amount of unnecessary quotations in these references (up to a whole paragraph) brings copyright into question. Thoughts? -- Ned Scott 05:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Most, if not all, of those are on the web, so I don't see any compelling reason to have them there since they're pretty easily accessible. I'd only consider using the field when something controversial is being referenced by a print source. ShadowHalo 05:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed new policy

Per administrator User:Angr, I'm working on a new policy called WP:KATWALSH, since, I've been told, her statement has higher authority than even WP:NONFREE. You're invited to help shape it, at User:Jenolen/WP:KATWALSH_(proposed). Thanks!

Jenolen ^{speak it!} 07:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

He said her statement was regardig the foundation policy as passed by the entire board, wich is what trumps local policy, not that her statement in itself trumps the policy (WP:NONFREE is actualy a guideline by the way, the policy bit is WP:NFCC). Don't you have better things to do than set up such strawmen? --Sherool (talk) 09:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

How is that a strawman? Would you say that everything in Kat Walsh's "statement" has been incorporated into WP:NONFREE? (or WP:NFCC?) And if not, can you see why it would be frustrating to try to follow these policies, only to be told it is "trumped" by some other non-policy? If we want to FORMALIZE Kat's statement, as a policy statement in and of itself which should be followed more closely than our other guidelines, then no, I see nothing wrong with actually working on doing so.

And yes, I do have several better things to do... but since the universe requires balance, for every patently dumb "policy enforcement action" (such as the deletion of a commonly distributed promotional photo for which no free equivalent can be created, and in which at least two of the primary actors are wearing heavy sci-fi make-up they aren't wearing in their free/libre photos), I think it's okay to try to balance that out by making people think about why the rules of Wikipedia are the way they are, and why people here enforce certain rules certain ways. Look, it's real easy to get an image deleted, especially an image dealing with copyrighted material. Way too easy, if you ask me -- an experienced deleter can pick from any of about 15 reasons to list an image for deletion, and when a sympathetic admin sees the case - say, an admin who would like fair use on the project to be scaled way, way past what any form of consensus or Foundation policy supports - poof, it's gone. It's ridiculous, stupid, petty, and everything that is wrong with both Wikipedia and Internet communities.

And if certain editor/admins get their way, then yes, Wikipedia - the free encyclopedia - is going to have to accept that the very thing that made it so popular to begin with - insanely detailed entries on a variety of popular culture topics - are going to look much, much different, and much, much less appealing, for no good LEGAL reason. And yes, before you start howling that Wikipedia doesn't care about the law, that's why we're much stricter than the law, we're all about the creation of free/libre content, save it. Certainly, I understand how many editors feel about what might be considered the Wikipedia "purity" test, and the continued prioritization of the five pillars, ranking the creation of "free/libre" content higher than the "create a good encyclopedia" mission... and that's all well and good. But it's in direct conflict with many of Wikipedia's most enthusiastic contributors, who come here to work on articles about their favorite actor, or TV show, or band, or Pokemon, or whatever. Sure, the "academic" part of Wikipedia - at least, the part that can be considered as academic as any unverifiable source can ever be - will remain. But imageless coverage of popular culture topics will be a serious blow to this project, and that's the direction we're headed, make no mistake. It needs to stop now; it likely won't. There's no indication that anyone really understands what made the site so popular to begin with. And it only take a couple of bad admins and overly enthusiastic "bad cop" deleters to sour large chunks of contributors. And if that trend continues, it's not hard to imagine that someday, the bad admins - the real policy wonks, who delight in arcane justifications for image deletions, will be the only ones left here... along with the trolls. Is that what you want for Wikipedia's future? Jenolen ^{speak it!} 10:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

"by making people think about" - So, you assume you're just making a point?

"the very thing that made it so popular..." - In your account. Not everyone is here to write about tv/series. And the project would have turned in anything but an useful encyclopedia if it focused on tv/series (instead of free content) in it's beginnings.

"imageless coverage of popular culture topics" - Nobody is asking for that. The "commonly distributed promotional photo" you mentioned, for instance, was deleted because it's distribution was forbidden.

(By the way, it's commons etiquette to warn the original ifd nominator when listing an image on deletion review).

But, please, feel free to ignore my points and write a even longer comment repeating the same points and making other irrelevant ones. ;) --Abu badali ^(talk) 14:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, this statement doesn't tell us anything that we didn't already know. Is there something I'm missing? WilyD 12:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)