Talk:Bushfires in Australia

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Merge proposal

There is no reason to maintain a separate Bushfires in Victoria article - it creates unnecessary duplication. Bushfires in Victoria are just the same as bushfires everywhere else in the southern part of the continent. No reason for its own article. Relevant information should be merged to this article, with individual bushfires forked to List of Australian bushfires, or if that becomes too large (it wouldn't be at this stage, but would be if the list were expanded to include more historical fires), further fork to List of Victorian bushfires, etc. Please discuss below. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with merge proposal as detailed above. No need for a separate article.--Dmol (talk) 12:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose Firefighting in Victoria is the responsibility of two Victorian state authorites the Country Fire Authority and the Victorian Department of Sustainability and Environment. Bushfire policy and plannning and emergency management are responsibilities of the Victorian state government, major disasters are investigated by Victorian state royal commissions, statistics are compliled by Victorian state authorities and departments. The subject is independently notable, and has a large reservoir of state-based current and historical sources to draw upon for expansion.--Melburnian (talk) 12:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• What you just mentioned is about all the information you'd need in a subheading "Victoria" in a national article. It's the same in South Australia. The CFS deals with rural firefighting, the MFS deals with urban firefighting, National Parks and Wildlife deals with park maintenance and backburning, all are centrally co-ordinated during incidents from FireSA on Gouger Street.... this can all be very neatly dealt with by having a national article which links to each state-based department and "list of" statistics page for greater detail. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 21:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• A comprehensive article is preferable to a subheading, links and lists.Melburnian (talk)

I would consider that a point in favour of an Australia-wide article. Much of what is in the Victorian article is equally applicable to the rest of Australia, and that which isn't could be much better dealt with in its own articles, a la Country Fire Service.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 07:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Or for that matter, Country Fire Authority, which the current article inexplicably doesn't even link to.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 07:12, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

It's simplistic to suggest linking to the state volunteer fire department to cover the topic of bushfires in a state when the topic is much broader than supression, covering land management, planning and legislation for the major part determined at state level as well as the extensive historical information.--Melburnian (talk) 13:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

This article currently deals with: Description of bushfires (2 paragraphs), description of Victorian terrain (1 paragraph), causes of bushfires (2 paragraphs), fire warnings (1 paragraphs), list of Victorian bushfires (28 paragraphs, with a separate "most deadly" section with 23 dot points), and a bit of original research re: death tolls (3 paragraphs). Bushfire suppression agencies? Zero paragraphs. Bushfire prevention strategies? Zero paragraphs. Bushfire related legislation? Zero paragraphs. In short, it contains nothing that would even give it an argument for remaining a standalone article.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 21:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

What you are describing is the quality of the article as at October 2010. The question here is the notability of the topic "Bushfires in Victoria", which is clearly notable as a stand-alone subject. [1] [2] Melburnian (talk) 23:35, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

A google search and a vic library page on historical Vic bushfires don't in any way demonstrate that bushfires in Victoria are any different to bushfires in the rest of Australia. If you can fix the article so that it does demonstrate the notability and uniqueness of Vic bushfires, I'll gladly support it as a standalone. That's hypothetical. It currently does not warrant its own article. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 00:15, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually the State Library of Victoria site comprises 14 pages and in addition to covering resources related to historical fires in Victoria it also covers resources on current information from state authorities and media, reports and state legislation.Melburnian (talk) 02:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Changes look really good; Victorian article actually looks like it could and should survive on its own now, since you've made it about bushfire policies / management in Victoria rather than any supposed uniqueness of Vic. bushfires as the article previously seemed to assert. I withdraw the merge proposal. Possibly use the article as a loose template for the creation of other state bushfire management pages? --Yeti Hunter (talk) 05:49, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think the same approach can be taken for other states; it frees this article from having to give six or more different versions for each facet of management, legislation and planning related to bushfires.Melburnian (talk) 06:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree. The Vic article is looking good and opens the door for similar treatment in sister articles for the other states. –Moondyne 12:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Lead sentence

I find the uncited lead sentence asserting that Aussie bushfires are the most frequent in the world quite suspect, especially in light of data like this. I'm looking for a nice citation that sums up the unique characteristics of bushfire in Australia as opposed to elsewhere in the world, perhaps something like "characterised by their intensity and relatively short duration". This page from the CSIRO gets close, and can certainly be used, but it doesn't quite do it for the lead sentence. Any suggestions?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 06:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Removed and replaced. –Moondyne 12:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Missing information

Any information on fires around 8th-14th Feb 2014 and 22nd-26th Feb 2014? 164.15.17.9 (talk) 12:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

A major victorian fire has been missed here - South Gippsland (Mount Best) Six children died all from the one family, the Lonsdale family. The most ever from the one immediate family in the history of Australian bushfires. Four other people also died. Ten in total to the small community — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.209.140.254 (talk) 09:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Is there a good source that we could reference to justify adding this material? HiLo48 (talk) 11:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

By LesM Sources as follows: Memorial located at Mt Best South Gippsland http://www.panoramio.com/photo/45767971

Reference newspaper - The Advertiser, SA - Tuesday 30 January 1906 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5002919?searchTerm= (lonsdale gippsland) date:[1900 TO 1925]&searchLimits=l-australian=y — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.209.140.145 (talk) 11:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

New section: climate change

I've gone ahead and created a new section with some basic background info. I thought it was relevant, esp considering the recent media coverage of Greg Hunt citing Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charbono (talk • contribs) 11:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

The citation for AR5 leads to n opinion piece, the AR5 itself is not able to be cited yet (Big bold letters at the bottom of every page). SWOldfield (talk) 08:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Removed uncited assertion from introduction.

Edited false reference to CRC report to reflect actual content (and spirit) of report. Distinguished the statements made by CRC and CSIRO. SWOldfield (talk) 09:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Moved superseding citation from introduction (2007 report) to section on climate change (outdated 2005 report) SWOldfield (talk) 10:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

References

I wouldn't find Peckham a reliable source without corroboration. He's been retired for a decade. Having read his commentary, he sounds like a very lonely voice on many of the issues he claims are central. In fact, I'm surprised News Corp chose someone who has been retired for so long to spearhead their editorials. Prime Lemur (talk) 06:53, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

from Planet Oz

http://www.theguardian.com/world/planet-oz/2013/oct/23/climate-change-tony-abbott-australia-bushfire-science

....A study last year in the International Journal of Climatology looked at the FFDI data from 38 sites around Australia from 1973 to 2010. None of the sites showed a reduction in fire danger and 16 of them showed that fire weather had increased significantly. While the study was not set up to find a link between human-emissions and bushfires, the study said the trends were "consistent with projected impacts of climate change on FFDI".

The study, carried out by scientists from the NSW government, the CSIRO and the Bureau of meteorology, also found that the most distinct increases in fire risk were in spring and autumn, meaning the fire season was getting longer.

In 2007, a study by scientists at the CSIRO, Bureau of Meteorology and a government-backed bushfire research centre also found that Australia was experiencing more dangerous fire-prone days. The study found:

Increases of 10-40% between 1980-2000 and 2001-2007 are evident at most sites. The strongest rises are seen in the interior portions of NSW, and they are associated with a jump in the number of very high and extreme fire danger days.

The study also pointed out there was a strong correlation between increased risk of fire and periods of drought. Times of higher bushfire risk also tended to happen during periods of El Nino, which in Australia is associated with hotter temperatures and less rain.

Professor Roger Jones, a co-ordinating lead author for a chapter in the next major IPCC report looking at climate impacts, has written about his own study into fire danger trends in the state of Victoria, which has already had a flush of damaging bushfires. He found that " fire danger in Victoria increased by over a third after 1996, compared to 1972-1996."

Professor Jones, of Victoria University, also points out that recently observed changes in fire risk are already at the "worst case" level predicted for the year 2050 by a previous study. He writes:

We can't consider severe fires as one-offs that happen every few decades. If they're becoming a systemic part of our environment we have to consider this really seriously. There will be a financial cost and a human cost, and we will see it repeated, if we don't plan ahead.

BoogaLouie (talk) 14:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

BoogaLouie (talk · contribs) your comment lacks article-improvement ideas and appears to be WP:SOAP and WP:FORUM contrary to WP:TALK. It's also a long quote from a blog, which are not RS. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Climate Change in the Introduction article

Everything removed about climate change from the introduction is captured in the new section on climate change. SWOldfield (talk) 15:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

First read WP:LEAD then please explain why. Also, note that everything broadly related to climate change is subject to WP:AC/DS per WP:ARBCC, so let's be sure to use the "discuss" part of WP:BRD. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Everything in the climate change section is as fair as this author can be with the sources given. The introduction had a source which said the same thing as the climate change section with a more recent citation. This makes the entire page concise and to the point, without repeating itself. This is an article about bushfires, not about climate change.

SWOldfield (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I think you are saying that if the article's body says "X" then it is redundant to mention "X" in the WP:LEAD. By that reasoning, we would have no leads whatsoever. However, WP:LEAD says the lead is supposed to "define the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight." I'm open to changing the way we mention climate change in the lead, but I am committed to following RSs and not editor POV. A great meany RSs are talking about climate change in relation to the bushfires. Therefore, our task is to report on that coverage in the body of the article, and to say something brief about that aspect of the issue in the lead. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The lead says precisely what the body says. That's not a weighted summary, that's an introduction to a page about the effects of CC on bushfires. The lead did have a (brief) statement indicating that climate change was an issue which is now gone. The summary is as long as the section. Removed redundant section from lead, included brief summary at end of lead.

SWOldfield (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Works for me, mostly.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:09, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The section stating that bushfires are increasing due to climate change have no place in an encyclopaedia. There is no evidence that this is happening. Even the IPCC cannot find a direct link between climate change and bushfires. There is not even ANY evidence that bushfires are increasing at all. The article supplied is not evidence, a Tim Flannery report cannot be used as evidence in an encyclopaedia as it is CLEARY biased. The work that paper references does not show any evidence that this is happening, only models that show it could happen and may be happening.

Seriously, someone needs to get a grip with this because it goes against everything that Wikipedia stands for. An article must not be used to make political and religious statements by bending the truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.202.67.248 (talk) 02:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

To get rid of the entire passage seems to me you need to shoot down the existing citations with some logically cohesive and wikipedia policy-based argument policy argument (such as a claim that they are not what Wikipedia defines as a reliable source). How is The Guardian not a reliable source? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:55, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The suggested link to climate change has been widely reported and verified, but then so have numerous other explanations - sometimes claiming CC is not a significant factor, sometimes claiming it is one amongst many. I don't think anyone has claimed that CC is the only factor of human influence. The problem is that presenting the CC argument on its own gives it undue weight. May I suggest the issue be rephrased as "Human influences" or similar, which can include everything from climate change to vegetation changes to burnoff practices to power lines to housing density (all of which have received substantial press in the past few weeks regarding their influence on bushfire severity).--Yeti Hunter (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

If you have the RSs by all means add discussion of these other factors to supplement discussion of the climate change factor. If that happens, I agree we may wish to fiddle with section headings. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Here are a few to get the ball rolling:

• [3] - Retired Monash professor David Packham arguing that fuel load management is the dominant influence, with climate change a negligible or at most very gradual influence.
• [4] Another ref for Packham, but explains his bushfire-specific research interests as well.
• [5] - About the recent controversy. Includes arguments about CC, but also about fuel load, the changing importance of weather conditions as they become more severe (particularly wind), and a discussion of how fires may be becoming more damaging due to denser development, despite not being any more severe per se.
• [6] Bjorn Lomborg argues that climate change is one factor among many, and that for Australia's climate, it may actually result in less fire due to drought reducing fuel loads.
• [7] Geoscience Australia ref for main causes of fire (not about changes over time, but an excellent ref for the article anyway, and human influence on fire)

The list is a little NewsLimited-heavy, but it's a start.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 00:09, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Sane observers among even the most rabid anti-anthropomorphic global warming proponents now acknoweldge that global warming is happening. It's the cause they argue about, and this isn't about the cause. HiLo48 (talk) 07:35, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

It is about the cause of bushfires though, and mentioning global warming as the supposedly only human influence on the frequency and severity of fire is indeed an incomplete or even misleading proposition. The edit warriors are probably just upset at the one-sided presentation of the issue. Sorry I haven't had a go at incorporating the above refs into the article yet, I might do so in the next few days.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 08:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The argued about text does not say that global warming is caused by humans. (Didn't I just say that?) HiLo48 (talk) 08:48, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

True, but neither does that negate the points above. The fact is that there are human, and natural, influences on fire. Climate change probably fits into both categories. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it does negate what you said. YOU mentioned human influence, and the words under discussion don't. It's possible to mention climate change or global warming without mentioning humans. Climate change is virtually unarguable. Don't read more into the words than they say. HiLo48 (talk) 10:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

My point is that the article is lacking a discussion of both human and natural influences. The fact that the article presently does not explicitly mention human influences supports, not negates, that point. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 11:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I like the mental image of anthropomorphic global warming... something like this? :) --Yeti Hunter (talk) 11:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

This section, which started by dwelling on mentioning climate change in the lead, shows a misunderstanding of what is supposed to be in the WP:LEAD. The better target for complaint is the section in the main body of the text that talks about global warming and bushfires. I would be happy to see a section heading for "trends" added, and beneath the "trends" heading, some additional subsections, for example "Land Use", "Population", etc. The solution to an article being incomplete is not to delete well-cited text but instead, add what is missing NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

We seem to be in furious agreement!--Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

It's easy to agree on big abstractions. Anything that is added needs to pass muster with weight and be a reliable source. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't intend to start referencing Andrew Bolt if that's what you mean! Any comment on the five I linked above? --Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know AU's Telegraph but Britain's is frequently challenged for reliability. I think you need a scientific reference that quantifies how fuel load has changed. Fact that Pechkam is going around saying "fuel load" is in the news, but to be compelling his opinion needs to be based on something. How has the fuel load changed? Why did it change? Do other scientists say those chagnes are due to global warming? Moreoever, mere fact of fuel load is just one thing. Add even hotter/even drier weather - like global warming is making worse - and its a big problem. So why is Pekham running about saying its all just the left foot and none of the right foot, when the creature is walking on at least two feet? A possible third foot is population and development increase. It's just what happens in the Ponderosa Pine hills of the western US. None of the contemporary mountain-dwellers want fires because the views of meadows and pines are so nice. Except the meadows exist because there used to be creeping ground fires every few years before Smokey Bear started putting them all. That made an artificial fuel load, now being exacerbated by the mountain pine beetle killing standing timber (which has become an epidemic because global warming keeps the winters warmer than usual and that means winter doesn't kill off the beetles like it used to). So the fires are no longer creeping ground fires due to fuel load, and we are especially likely to see these inflated fires as horrible tragedies because they are likely to burn down the McMansions. I don't know Aussieland, but I assume the full story is a similar mixture of things. The trick is finding the neutral and reliable material to tell the real interwoven story. For credibility, citing Lomborg is laughable. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:12, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

(more) For background at least until the final report is released, see also Australia vulnerable in a warming planet, leaked IPCC report finds which says in part

"Climate change will increase the likelihood of deaths from heat stress and bushfires, and potentially place more than a quarter of a million Australian homes at risk from rising sea levels, according to a United Nations-backed draft document"

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:16, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Resurrecting this thread. Currently reading Bill Gammage on this topic (The Biggest Estate on Earth - How the Aborigines Made Australia). Very interesting and relevant; if you don't have a copy you should find one! Watch this space.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 08:43, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Threshold for "major bushfires"

The list of "major bushfires in Australia" is getting out of hand - 57 incidents are listed as of today. Most are mere WP:NEWS and there seems to be no rhyme nor reason for inclusion. Some are completely unreferenced, some are flat-out wrong (eg 2014 South Australian bushfires ref does not indicate any deaths occurred, but the list claims 10) others are fairly questionable as far as "major" goes, some of the statements in the section lead are editorialising, and the whole thing has a strong whiff of WP:RECENTISM. Yet it's difficult to think of a blanket criterion for inclusion in such a list. A certain number of deaths/injuries? Minimum area burnt? Structures burnt? Notability in its own right (ie, has own article)? None of these are ideal, but the current situation is pretty sub-optimal. All in all the list clearly needs an audit, and some kind of discrimination. I would welcome any discussion of this. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 04:54, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Edits to Categories Section

So the entire categories section was plagiarized from Marion Henkel's book. I have edited the section and rephrased the information and cited Henkel's article as a source using footnotes. I have also linked bushfires to an external site about bushfire preparedness so individuals reading the article have a better understanding of the nature of bushfires and how they themselves can act in order to prevent causal harm. Yetinubu (talk) 18:39, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

New Section Impact

I have added a section on the economic impact because of its relevancy to understanding the nature of bushfires and their social and regional impact in Australia. Link from methodological to empiricism to provide individuals with a way to delve deeper into the thought process that garners the the list of items that are expected to be impacted. Yetinubu (talk) 18:44, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I think this is a topic that needs further exploration on this page as it provides another level of information to the reader that can be be vital to their research on this topic (Bushfires in Australia). Yetinubu (talk) 18:48, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

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These fires are covered by the final entry in the table of Major bushfires. But really poorly. A simple look tells us there is far too much detail when compared with every other entry. These details are being updated in a very ad hoc manner. Even the date that tells us when those details were last updated is wrong. I suspect it would be best to also include the concurrent fires in SE Qld in such a section. I'm not game to touch it because I don't know enough about the details. Is there anyone watching who can help? HiLo48 (talk) 01:53, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Aaaarrggh! This is getting worse, not better. Australia's deadliest bushfires, the Black Saturday bushfires in 2009, has an entry of five words. The 2019 New South Wales Bushfires section is beginning to look like War and Peace. I have taken the liberty to dramatically shorten it. HiLo48 (talk) 04:22, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Surely about time to redirect all to the generic page, List_of_Australian_bushfire_seasons, otherwise this is going to be an onging battle against recentism. It's already unnecessarily dominating of the page.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 06:19, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Mitch has started the 2019–20 Australian bushfire season article today, ready for content. JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Excellent. That will help. HiLo48 (talk) 08:22, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

It seems there is a push to make modern bushfires appear the worst ever? Although when one looks at the list, the biggest fires were: 1851 - 12 milllion acres; 1974-5 - 11 million; and '84-5 - 8.6 million acres. Apart from Black Friday of 2009 where 173 perished (a one-off, an extreme anomaly - perhaps a result of population growth and fashionable Treechange?) all the worst fires, contrary to what MSM says, were in the past. 30% of the World's carbon footprint gas been added since the turn of the millennium yet all the largest fires by acreage occured before then. So where is the link between climate change, carbon dioxide and increasingly bad bushfires? There may not be one, and I think all the information added to the last dozen or so columns is trying to make them look worse than they really are. Just because technology now gives us more info about them doesn't mean they are necessarily worse. Now, try to imagine what the 12 million acre 1851 fires must have been like.

Anywhinge perhaps everyone should cool their heels and stop ruining this page as they try to constantly update it. Wait till it over? 49.199.230.235 (talk) 13:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

What you're describing is certainly a problem for Wikipedia, but rather than it being "a push to make modern bushfires appear the worst ever", I see it as mostly just an example of a constant problem with this encyclopaedia, that of recentism. This happens in many articles where recent news attention tends to provide editors with more material to add than the quantity we have for events further in the past. Feel free to join the ranks of active editors and do what you can to address the problem. But do be careful to try to maintain a constructive attitude towards the work of other editors. Another core policy is to assume good faith. It helps keep the peace here. HiLo48 (talk) 23:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I can't be bothered. I am not a slave. If Wankerpedia wants my input they can pay me. Otherwise I will continue to call them out on their biased bullshit 49.199.230.235 (talk) 08:44, 12 November 2019 (UTC)whatafarce

Them? HiLo48 (talk) 09:44, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Could also be those fires burned a larger area because back then there were less people to fight the fires as well as no water bombers, modern firetrucks, fire management techniques, instant communication (i.e. internet & phones) etc. Also back then the land would have been less developed meaning more trees and grassland to burn back then.Slimbojimbo123 (talk) 05:09, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Fix.

Vandalism at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushfires_in_Australia#cite_note-1 —DIV (115.64.158.120 (talk) 13:24, 26 December 2019 (UTC))

 Fixed[8] Mitch Ames (talk) 00:25, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Separate States

Okay so in the past figures were counted for separate States. Now we're seeing conglomerates. Disconnected forest fires used to be counted separately, now they're being lumped in all together. That is not the correct way to compile statistics yo ffs. Adding the separate fire acreage and making it a national headline is sensationalist we are all going to die because of climate change shit. Sheesh.

I admit, I also baulked at that entry. The Uni of W report, Table D.1 on pp 339-345, lists several NT fire seasons of the 1970s as ~40m ha. The preamble to the table notes data is sourced from state depts and may have differing definitions. Australia's savanna country is extensive, forming a patchwork of disparate habitats across the northern third of the continent. It is highly reliant on fire, and fire processes within Australian savannas tend to release & then sequester CO2 cyclically. Each of WA, NT & Qld have formal fire management programs for its savanna-lands. This is outside of my expertise, and someone will probably need to hunt down the sources (they're contained in footnotes to the table, but not linked to table sections) and their respective definitions to determine if these fit within the ambit of this article. My personal view, an uninformed one at that, is that these fires don't constitute "fire disasters", as they are not (normally) associated with loss of life, stock, infrastructure or property, or even wildlife. Their areal extent will inevitably swamp all other fire events that are classified as disasters. I would lean towards explicitly excluding savanna fires, except where they have caused loss of life, infrastructure or property. But I'll leave that for others to decide. As can be seen from edit history, this has become a political issue and part of a wider debate about climate change. Prime Lemur (talk) 00:12, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Opinion Article cited as official position of Scientific American.

Opening section states "The magazine, Scientific American, claims the link between extreme bushfire seasons and anthropogenic climate change is scientifically undisputable.". The source for this claim is an opinion article with standard "The opinions expressed in this article are the views of the author, not Scientific American." disclaimer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.126.205 (talk) 01:30, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

One obvious solution is simply reword the sentences to "According to Nerilie Abram ..." instead of "According to Scientific American...", thus. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

I tend to agree. There is another problem: people have been adding new entries from dubious sources (eg see table of Major Bushfires 1974/5 season), using figures from savanna fires. These are not bushfires in any real sense, and neither life, property, infrastructure or even wildlife are impacted by them. Prime Lemur (talk) 09:49, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

1974-75 NT fires

According to the table, 117 million hectares of land burnt in the Northern Territory in the 1974-75 season. Considering the entire size of NT is 142.1 million hectares, and most of it is just desert, this number seems doubtful. Snkn179 (talk) 10:28, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I found another academic reference (National Enquiry published by the University of Wollongong) that suggested 45 million hectares. While better than a yearbook, it is a review / report. It'd be nicer to have a source discussing specifically those fires. gringer (talk) 18:47, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I admit, I also baulked at that entry. The Uni of W report, Table D.1 on pp 339-345, lists several NT fire seasons of the 1970s as ~40m ha. The preamble to the table notes data is sourced from state depts and may have differing definitions. Australia's savanna country is extensive, forming a patchwork of disparate habitats across the northern third of the continent. It is highly reliant on fire, and fire processes within Australian savannas tend to release & then sequester CO2 cyclically. Each of WA, NT & Qld have formal fire management programs for its savanna-lands. This is outside of my expertise, and someone will probably need to hunt down the sources (they're contained in footnotes to the table, but not linked to table sections) and their respective definitions to determine if these fit within the ambit of this article. My personal view, an uninformed one at that, is that these fires don't constitute "fire disasters", as they are not (normally) associated with loss of life, stock, infrastructure or property, or even wildlife. Their areal extent will inevitably swamp all other fire events that are classified as disasters. I would lean towards explicitly excluding savanna fires, except where they have caused loss of life, infrastructure or property. But I'll leave that for others to decide. As can be seen from edit history, this has become a political issue and part of a wider debate about climate change. Prime Lemur (talk) 00:25, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

yeah, it seems that the "45m Ha for NT" listing, while accurate according to the source found, neglects that that same source lists 29m Ha for WA and 16m Ha for SA for the same period, plus another 12m or so for NSW + QLD. Were these all the same fire? (I've not looked up a map to compare with described areas). I agree the existence of large-area low-impact outback/desert grass fires is largely missing from the listings on this page and that given the focus on area, they could easily be misconstrued to be much higher impact than they were (clearly very low impact by how news-worthy they seem to not have been). Unsure how to best deal handle. A separate table feels unwieldy, but excluding them feels like editorialising --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 11:41, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Here's a source saying those fires in 1974-75 were very damaging: https://knowledge.aidr.org.au/resources/bushfire-new-south-wales-1974/ During the summer between 1974 and 1975, Australia experienced its worst bushfire season in 30 years. Approximately 15 per cent of Australia's physical land mass sustained extensive fire damage. This equates to roughly around 117 million ha. New South Wales was badly affected with widespread damage to infrastructure, including communications, roads, railways and property fencing. There was also significant damage to the agriculture and horticulture industries, as famers lost crops and livestock to the fires. The areas affected included Cobar Shire, Balranald, Glendale and regions around the Lower Hunter. Three people lost their lives in New South Wales. The overall damage cost was estimated at approximately $5 million. Aszilagyi (talk) 16:40, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

The link provided appears to be another user-sourced article database, rather than any form of reputable source. I find the description dubious because the references in the table for 1974/5 are only based on savanna fires, in NT especially. Prime Lemur (talk) 10:05, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Every year there are large fires in the tropical savanna in NT, WA, Qld. These should be kept distinct from forest fire data. Details <a href="https://moyhu.blogspot.com/2020/01/a-trap-with-bushfire-area-statistics-in.html">here</a>. In 1969, for example, there was also a 45 M ha fire in NT. This is rightly not in the Wiki table. The seasonal fires average 40 M ha/year, so there would be an entry for every year.

In 1974 there was a wet winter, with growth that in dry areas burnt off next summer. This enhanced the savanna fires. It also made unusual fires in the arid west of NSW. This was the only newsworthy event; some houses were destroyed and people killed. But still, it was not a forest fire.

Thank you. I found similar information. It has actually gotten worse, with new entries added for ridiculous areas of "bushfire" since I last checked a few days back, all apparently referencing savanna burns. I think these savanna-linked entries in the table should be deleted. One even has a link to a useless (product checkout) page at the ABS. Prime Lemur (talk) 10:05, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Wiki's peculiar treatment of 1974/5 can be traced to an accident where an entry in the Commonwealth Yearbook 1995 cited the 1974/5 savanna fires just as an example of the discrepancy in size. This got picked up and preserved in various official docs, and so to Wiki. Other years did not. Nstokesvic (talk) 08:43, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation. It definitely makes sense. But just a tip and request. Please don't use "Wiki" as an abbreviation for "Wikipedia". Wikipedia itself will tell you that a wiki is a generic term for all sorts of collections of information or knowledge, of which Wikipedia is only one. HiLo48 (talk) 09:51, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Significant redirection of content?

I'm far from a professional Wikipedia editor, but the rewriting of this page in the last 3 days from a straight discussion of bushfires in Australia, to a soliloquy on climate change seems odd? The content about carbon emissions, for example, seems tenuously relevant at best. This is a pretty important topic to Australians at the moment, so the clear POV pushing from one editor (who only seems interested in climate change, based on his body of work) does it a dis-service. I'm a bit surprised it hasn't been picked up by the edit police - but it seems from the activity that any attempt to rewrite it will just be reverted. Compare the content in early December to now - I'm just a bit gobsmacked.Hank Stamper (talk) 06:11, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

@Notagainst: I gather this was an invitation to discuss with you. I agree with HS that carbon emissions are tenuously relevant (a lot of trees grow back, undoing the already small emissions), deserving not more than a single sentence. Also, mind WP:Recentism: don't add sentences like in the past three months that are outdated almost immediately. Femke Nijsse (talk) 12:29, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

International perspective

In light of the international interest in Australian wildfires, I have attempted to add some clarifications for non-Australasian readers into what “the bush” is and what bush fires are and each revision has been reversed. I think that if the English speaking world refers to uncontrolled forest fires as wildfires, so should we. Any suggestions? Jucjuc (talk) 12:17, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

"Bushfire" is the most common term in Australia, so MOS:TIES says that's the word we should use. The first instance (after the bold text, per MOS:BOLDLINKAVOID) of "bushfires" is linked to Wildfire, for the benefit of those not familiar with the term (and who didn't read the hatnote). I'm not sure that it is necessary to fit "the bush" into the lead. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:51, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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• Werombi Bushfire.jpg

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• Prospect Hill bushfires.jpg

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...."and millions of animals" in the introduction

Dont put inferior animals next to humans. Thanks.

62.226.91.71 (talk) 19:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Which animals are inferior to humans? HiLo48 (talk) 09:52, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Reverse the default order of the Major Bushfires table? Suggestion

That table is an absolute mess. For one, I think it would make more sense to have the most recent bushfires at the top (reverse chronological order), rather than the bottom. Everybody's coming to this page to look at the 2019-2020 bushfire season, anyway. twotwos (talk) 01:14, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

One of Wikipedia's major issues is recentism. We shouldn't be encouraging it. I like the idea that people coming to the list see how big a problem bushfires have always been to non-aboriginal people in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 05:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

I think you've got a point there (and turns out the style guide recommends standard chronological). Still though, it does feel a bit weird to have to scroll all the way down in order to see the most recent stuff (at least to me). Perhaps ordering by some form of 'importance' could work, but I'm not sure an agreeable way to quantify that exists. Deaths perhaps? Order probably wouldn't matter if this table could be shortened so all the entries in it actually feel important. The mixing of individual bushfires, multiple bushfires on the same day, multiple bushfires in the same region in a period of time, and entire bushfire seasons probably doesn't help either. twotwos (talk) 07:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps a better solution is a separate page entirely titled Major bushfires in Australia. This page, Bushfires in Australia, is really about the history and causes and does not need to contain the list itself. However, there could/should be a link on the Bushfires in Australia page to the Major bushfires in Australia page. Notagainst (talk) 22:44, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Agree strongly. Make it a plain List of major bushfires in Australia, with some fairly strict content guidelines to guard against editorialising.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 05:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Agree strongly with the proposal to create the List of major bushfires in Australia. Yeti Hunter, what should be the content guidelines? I'm happy to make a start on the list. twotwos, when I create the list it will be a sortable table, so the order can be reversed quickly at the push of a button. Cheers. Rangasyd (talk) 05:08, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

List is now viewable at User:Rangasyd/sandbox/List of major bushfires in Australia for review. Feedback is welcome. Rangasyd (talk) 12:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on list articles, or really any kind of article, but I like it. Largely solves the problems we've got over here, and once it's up discussion can go on that page instead of this article. As for the list section here, I think the correct procedure would be to just cut it and link to the list in the 'See also', right? Could get a more prominent link but I can't imagine how we'd do that. twotwos (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

1974/75 fire season

The entries for the 1974/75 fire season are getting a little out of hand. We now have multiple entries for the same season (one for the whole season, one each for several states). Most problematic is the nature of these fires. The vast majority of the land being listed as burned were not bushfires but savanna fires, annual events that burn through enormous areas of grasslands. To add to the problem, there were also legitimate bushfires that season. I have checked the source material, and some of it explicitly refers to large areas of savanna grass fires. If this becomes a precedent, then there will be entries almost every year for areas averaging >25MHa. This will effectively bury actual bushfires where life, property or infrastructure was lost. I'm looking for comments or suggestions for resolution. Prime Lemur (talk) 13:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree. If we look at fire in Australia, one might go along the lines of there are wildfires of two types, exceptional damaging burns, and expected routine burns, and there are controlled burns, of all types of country. Yes the table is a mess. One possible structure might be to tabulate each season and split it by totals of "bushfires" versus "savanna fires" versus "controlled burns", and then to have a separate table with an entry for each of "exceptional damaging burns". I was already thinking about this but thought I would let the dust settle on the 2019-20 season first, and also because I am currently completly redoing Fire-stick farming which is turning out to be a real can of worms! Aoziwe (talk) 13:42, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

I think reliable data on savanna fires will be very hard to find. There is really no source but satellite, so nothing before 1965. And I think 1965-80 relies on Landsat, which could not then have reliably discriminated.

It is hard to pin down what "area burned" really means. I think many statistics treat it as just an area in which there were some fires. The 5 m ha in Victoria in 1851 is in this category.Nstokesvic (talk) 19:13, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but we need to define what is meant by "bushfire". You @Prime Lemur: say "vast majority of the land being listed as burned were not bushfires but savanna fires". You imply that a "savanna fire" is not a bushfire. But the article says "Bushfires in Australia are generally described as uncontrolled, non-structural fires burning in a grass, scrub, bush, or forested area." That means "bushfire" is a more general term and it includes several types of fire including grass, bush, scrub, and forest fires. There is no mention of "savanna fire" in the article. --Aszilagyi (talk) 17:14, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

• Agreed that a table that comingles both state- and national-level fires is defective. Perhaps it should be rebuilt as follows

-year1 -national level, total area burnt
         -state 1 area burnt, name of the fire if avail
         -state 2 area burnt, name of the fire if avail
-year2 -national level, total area burnt
etc.

XavierItzm (talk) 09:06, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Comingling seasons and individual fires is also simply confusing. Aoziwe (talk) 10:14, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

These kinds of lists are ALWAYS problematic because they are all essentially WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, done by Wikipedians on the basis of primary sources. That's how these kinds of issues always pop up. Instead of constructing such a table ourselves, could we get a secondary source which lists these fires? Volunteer Marek 16:42, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

See the 2004 National Inquiry on Bushfire Mitigation and Management, Appendix D on page 339. Great source but only goes to 2004. In any case I believe the list in its current form, or even substantially abridged, is inappropriately domiminant of the article in terms of size (not to mention recentism), and therefore should be forked to a dedicated list article. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 05:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

This seems suspect, homes destroyed, fencing lost, livestock killed all the same for 4 different fires, all in 1974? I presume a good faith copy and paste to the table, but forgetting to change the appropriate figures?

1. 1974 Balranald bushfire New South Wales 340,000 840,000 Mid December 1974 40 homes, 10,170 kilometres (6,320 mi) of fencing, 50,000 livestock [99][100][101]
2. 1974 Cobar bushfire New South Wales 1,500,000 3,700,000 Mid-December 1974 40 homes, 10,170 kilometres (6,320 mi) of fencing, 50,000 livestock [98][99][100][101]
3. 1974 Moolah-Corinya bushfires, Far West NSW New South Wales 1,117,000 2,760,000 Mid-December 1974 3 40 homes, 10,170 kilometres (6,320 mi) of fencing, 50,000 livestock [98][99][100][101]
4. 1974–75 New South Wales bushfires New South Wales 4,500,000 11,000,000 1974–1975 season 6 40 homes, 10,170 kilometres (6,320 mi) of fencing, 50,000 livestock

Livestock is possibly misplaced in a column headed 'Properties damaged', or rename column to 'Property & Livestock losses'?

Damage figures for these three fires from 1984-85 also seem oddly the same:

1. 1985 Cobar bushfire New South Wales 516,000 1,280,000 Mid January 1985 Nil 40,000 livestock, $40 million damage [99][100]
2. 1984 Western New South Wales grasslands bushfires New South Wales 500,000 1,200,000 25 December 1984 40,000 livestock, $40 million damage [99][100][101]
3. 1984/85 New South Wales bushfires New South Wales 3,500,000 8,600,000 1984–1985 season 5 40,000 livestock, $40 million damage [99][100][101][102][103][104]

--220 of ^Borg 06:12, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

I went back to this version (20:21, 12 January 2020), and the table figures seem to be the total for all the 1974-27 NSW fires. 220 of ^Borg 06:23, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I also noticed the duplications. The problem, for me, is that one source has been relied on for particularly enormous areas burned, despite those figures including savanna fires. If we were to apply the same principle to every season, bona fide bushfires would be buried under savanna fires that are lit most years by parks or other state authorities. They occur every year to some extent, and many years they burn through vast areas, despite presenting little threat to life, property or infrastructure. The figures all seem to come from a singular source, but I can't find any kind of corroboration. Unfortunately, I just don't have time to chase this up directly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prime Lemur (talk • contribs) 07:06, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Main reason behind this Worst Climatic condition in Australia

These edits looked a bit dodgy to me (editor name RaMeenaa matches ref website), so I reverted. Now the near-identical text has been put back by a different, new editor Shekharrai2188. I haven't reverted again, because voluntary WP:1RR and WP:ONLYREVERT. Anyone care to comment? Mitch Ames (talk) 14:39, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Needs a clean-up certainly. Does seem a bit 'dodgy' too, but is it 'good' content?. 220 of ^Borg 07:12, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Actually it's a direct copy/paste from the source, so I've deleted it again. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:15, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Death Toll 19-20

Has anyone got a reference for the official death toll as I can’t find one anywhere that says 34? I can only find ones that are 33 Darce98 (talk) 20:28, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Reason for so many sections titled 'From 1 November 2019 to 31 January 2020'

Is there a reason there there are so many different sections all titled 'From 1 November 2019 to 31 January 2020' yet all containing different information? Would it not just make sense to group them all into one section -- Deathblue1993 (talk) 06:03, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

No it is simply wrong. Seems to have been created with this edit. If this is relevant and not duplicated it should be all in 2019-20 Australian bushfire season, but I have not looked at the material yet. In short this work, presumably in good faith, has seriously messed up the article. There is a huge amount of work to do for the 2019-20 "season", but the "smoke" still needs some time to settle ... Aoziwe (talk) 07:18, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 13 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

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Bushfires in Australia → Bushfire – "Bushfire" is specifically Australian term and not need such "in Australia" term. 180.249.244.242 (talk) 06:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

• @180.249.244.242: I have heard/seen the word "bushfire" used elsewhere. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose - per - https://www.natgeokids.com/au/discover/geography/physical-geography/what-is-a-bushfire/

which states: -What is a bushfire? Bushfires are fires that burn through areas of bushland. They are a type of wildfire – fires that burn through wild vegetation like woodland, scrubland, grassland or savannahs. These fires are unpredictable and difficult to control. These fires are particularly common in areas that experience hot, dry weather, like Australia, Greece, Africa and parts of the USA, like California.

Updated to include the text of the item linked for clarity. JarrahTree 00:58, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support. Bushfire redirects to here anyway. Either bushfires are notable in other countries and can be mentioned in the article, or they aren't and they can continue to not be mentioned. Either way "in Australia" does not need to be specified. —Xezbeth (talk) 15:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - The word bush is understood to have come to Australia from South Africa (see The bush). They have fires there too, so the concept of a bushfire is not unique to Australia. I'm pretty sure it has been used in New Zealand too. HiLo48 (talk) 00:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@HiLo48: I also believe this word also often used in New Zealand as the country is Australia's neighbouring states. But while "The Bush" was originated from South Africa and fires very often occured here, they rarely use "bushfire" in reliable sources, they most likely use "wildfire" which is general definition of forest fires. The problem is "Bushfire" already redirects here with little or no mention of fires in NZ or other African countries. 180.249.244.242 (talk) 00:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support The fact that the bush comes from SA means nothing. Honestyisbest (talk) 00:50, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Any chance you could learn to write more politely? The word "nothing" there is both impolite and inaccurate. HiLo48 (talk) 01:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose The redirect from "Bushfire is incorrect as it should be a disambiguation page which points to various bushfire, Bush Fire and Wild Fire articles which could be relevant when looking for "bushfire".Fleet Lists (talk) 01:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - Since this article is only about bushfires in Australia, and not bushfires in South Africa, the title should reflect that. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - "Bushfire" is a word, not a designation. If the title was changed as you say, anyone could come here thinking it's a general article about bushfires and be confused about its focus on Australia. RoadSmasher420 (talk) 11:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - The article is about bushfires in Australia - should be mentioned in title. Hughesdarren (talk) 11:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - The article is specifically about Australia, not bushfires in general. "... in Australia" is consistent with the category name, which in turn is consistent with all of the other Wildfires by country categories, (which I notice includes Category:Wildfires in South Africa, not Bushfires on South Africa).

Bushfire should instead link to Wildfire, because the topics are the same, regardless of the term used. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree for your argument because the problem is "Bushfire" already redirects to this article, which IMO is partially wrong because it is not discuss about bushfires (or wildfire outside Australia and NZ) in general. 180.249.244.242 (talk) 12:54, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - This article is about the particular case of bushfires in Australia, while reverting back to just Bushfire would result in duplicating much of the content from the parent Wildfire article. This was the case prior to 2010, when it was decided to merge Bushfire into Bushfires in Australia; see contemporary discussions of the merge here and here. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Note: Talk:Bushfire is presently a redirect to Bushfires in Australia, which appears to be confusing some bots posting notifications of the move discussion.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 00:50, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:33, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose the brand new IP from Indonesia is evidently well aware of en.wp practices and guidelines so to attempt this RM as a technical request is itself a reason to discourage with an oppose. But even if done properly "bushfire" is clearly not unique to Australia. The term is also used in India, for starters. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose Damn, I'm getting sick of seeing these ridiculous merge/delete/rename proposals from IP users (probably high school kids) with little or no previous useful contributions. Wikipedia should raise the threshold for making title-related requests/proposals so most of these time-wasting nonsense can be eliminated before they even pop up. Geez. Kenwick (talk) 08:22, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
• Snowball Closure Request I just noticed that the IP user who started this rename proposal had been blocked for sock puppetry. Admins, please do a snowball closure of this discussion. Thanks. Kenwick (talk) 08:29, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

geography

geography is the study of man his surrounding 102.80.7.129 (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Bush fire essay

Hiw to write about bushfire 43.245.57.176 (talk) 12:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)