Talk:Pretzels Getzien

Pretzels Getzien has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: July 30, 2014. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Pretzels Getzien appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 March 2013 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Charlie Getzein (pictured), known for his "pretzel curve" pitch, won 59 games in 1886 and 1887, including four games in the 1887 World Series?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2013/March.

Wikipedia

Archives

Archive 1

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Charlie Getzein/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Neonblak (talk · contribs) 18:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be reviewing this article, and it may take a couple days to complete. Initially, it is a very good read, but I did notice a few things that could use some attention. I look forward to assisting in getting this to GA status.Neonblak ^talk - 18:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Getting started

Article title. Appears that most of the revered online resources have his name as "Pretzels Getzien", maybe this article should be moved to that name to be consistent with the sources?

Depends on which sources you consider to be the most revered. Baseball-reference goes with "ie," but the contemporaneous newspaper sources flip-flop a fair bit. The "ei" spelling (Getzein) is, I think, the traditional German spelling, and it is used in The New York Times obit here. Cbl62 (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article appears to be free of any original research, and is stable. I cannot check for disambiguation or reference link issues at the moment, but will later.
The pictures appear to have all been properly used and sourced.

References

Ref #2, I noticed that the publisher for all the baseball-reference.com work are notated as "USA Today Sports Reference Digital Properties". Shouldn't it be instead "Sports Reference, LLC"? Does USA Today own this LLC? I wouldn't fail an article over this, but shouldn't the works include a link to its respective wikipedia page the first time used in references, I.E. Baseball-Reference.com? Also, should it just be "Pretzels Getzien" at the title of page?

I have "fixed" this. I agree with you the publisher should be Sports Reference LLC. I also changed the title to reflect which sub-page is involved, i.e., "Statistics & History" for the main player page, "Minor League Statistics" for the minor league sub-page, and "Managerial Statistics" for the managerial sub-page. Linking Baseball-Reference.com in the first citation also sounds like a reasonable idea. Cbl62 (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ref #3, I believe this is purely optional, but I think it's worth considering putting the complete date of November 2, 1887, instead of just the year, to stay consistent with with the rest of the dates in the reference section.
Ref #7, I don't think BR Bullpen is reliable source, as it an user edited page. The information pulled from this source should be found from an independently published work. This one should be easily fixed by using baseball-reference's minor league information for this player.

I agree that BR Bullpen is not a reliable source. I have deleted it, as well as the fact for which it is cited. Unfortunately, the baseball-reference site does not include Getzein's minor league stats for the year in question. Cbl62 (talk) 23:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ref #8, I couldn't find anything on references including attached notes explaining the reference's point, so I suppose they can stay. I have to say, it IS kinda helpful.
Ref #13, I'm not sure if baseballlibrary.com is considered a purely reliable source, but I'm not going to quibble. Shouldn't the publisher be noted? In this case, it's "The Idea Logical Company, Inc".

Lead

I know there are legitimate cases of suing citations in the lead, but I think this would be better used in the main body. And the statement's ambiguity in the lead doesn't match the affirmative statement in the body either.

Done. Cbl62 (talk) 23:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Complete Game is overlinked, a link to Games Started could be helpful.

Done. Cbl62 (talk) 23:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Professional Baseball

This may be something to consider, but I don't think the beginning of this section works. I would suggest moving the "Early years" to the top of the section, and include the the first line where it is unsure where he was born. The rest seems to be a summary of his career, and should probably be slid back into his "Later years" sub-section.

Re-arranged. Cbl62 (talk) 23:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the quoted section, I know from previous articles I have researched, the rule of the day was that a pitcher could be removed from the mound, but not from the game. So, he would have to play in the field, and a current fielder would then have to pitch. The team may not have had anyone who could pitch. It may need a sentence to clarify the rule, but entirely up to you.
For me, the layout is distracting. I would move the "Pretzel Curve" sub-section up to follow the "Early years", due to its first reference there. Extremely short sections are discouraged, I think combining these would make this easier to read. My suggestion would be making section covering 1884 thru 1886, then another covering 1887-1888, followed by "later years". But, of course, your input into this would be greatly appreciated.

I re-ordered the sections, mostly following your suggestions. Cbl62 (talk) 23:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Summary

Prose looks pretty good actually, although that isn't my strong point to begin with, but sentences seemed to flow nicely enough.
I mentioned earlier about his name, and that it should be moved to "Pretzels Getzien", but at the very least, his last name should reflect the official records as Getzien, not Getzein, as both versions are used throughout the article.
Not a make or break thing, but it would be generous of you to add Non-breaking spaces where whole numbers are used in conjunction with a stat, like "20 wins", etc.
I know that the general rule is seven days to complete the process, but since I see that you are in "Semi-retirement", and it is during the summer, I can work with you on the timeline, thanks ! Neonblak ^talk - 17:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the quick fixes. Whether the page should be moved could be another conversation, he appears to have been known better in his time as Charlie Getzein, than the baseball sources as Pretzels Getzien. The references and layout are much better now. My other concerns looked fixed, and I threw in a copyedit to use the mark-ups I like :) I will now pass this, great job CBL62, I am having a good time following your massive article expansions in my favorite era of baseball ! Neonblak ^talk - 04:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Pretzels Getzien, per the discussion below. This also enabled us to merge page histories after an old cut-and-paste move from 2013. Dekimasuよ! 19:40, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Charlie Getzein → Charlie Getzien – Correct name per Getzien's headstone. bender235 (talk) 23:31, 10 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Technical requests. I don't think Findagrave.com is considered reliable source here. Also per GA review above it appears The New York Time, at least once used the current name. So better discuss this. –Ammarpad (talk) 01:04, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

S/B Pretzels Getzien per Baseball-reference.com (many sources in article) and Pretzel Getzein per this source. I don't think Charlie should be the first name. Not sure whether the first name should be singular or plural. Google autocomplete suggests ie. Forbes thinks the last name is ie and the first is singular here. MLB.com thinks it is ie and plural per this. I think BR.com and MLB.com should guide us here. I Support Pretzels Getzien.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:13, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Pretzels Getzien per TonyTheTiger. As for the spelling of the surname on the gravestone, his wife, who died 15 years later, also has the form "Getzien" on her gravestone (both gravestones were likely created at the same time since the one for the wife has only her birthdate inscribed). Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:50, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Alternate proposal reverses 15:57, 28 February 2013‎ MusiCitizen (talk | contribs | block)‎ m . . (3,397 bytes) (0)‎ . . (MusiCitizen moved page Charlie Getzien to Pretzels Getzien over redirect: Because he played under this name, according to baseball sources.) Previously 21:44, 22 January 2009‎ Dewelar (talk | contribs | block)‎ . . (29 bytes) (+29)‎ . . (moved Charlie Getzein to Charlie Getzien over redirect: Correct name). Quite a history already. Andrewa (talk) 00:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.