Talk:Dune (novel)/Archive 1

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Archive 3

POV bias

Some wise guy has been trying to invoke the hate of the innumerable legions of Dune fans. He has decided it funny to write this: ...nce fiction, Dune is popularly considered one of the most boring science fiction novels of all time, and is frequently cited as the worse-selling science fiction novel in history[1]. Dune spawned five hundred sequels written by Herbert, and inspired a film adaptation by Dav....

Some wise guy has been trying to invoke the hate of the innumerable legions of Dune fans. He has decided it funny to write this:

"Dune was a SF landmarks for a number of reasons:" all of which are entirely the POV of the author. --orthogonal 22:49, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hm! I wrote the section you are refering to, and I agree I have a POV in favour of Frank Herbert and Dune. My points however are not entirely my POV as you suggest. I'm sure the reasons are overly positive and need to be be toned down, but the reasons in a toned down version are the reasons are0 that Dune is considered a landmark novel. And Dune is quite obviously a landmark Science Fiction novel from any perspective you would like to take. --ChrisG 23:02, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

We don't actually want to see your POV in Wikipedia; if yours can get in, then so can that of every Dune-hater, and I'm sure you wouldn't like that! Dune is indeed a landmark, and there are plenty of SF histories and critics who will be happy to make the authoritative claim for you; for instance Trillion Year Spree has a couple pages on it, and includes the observation that Dune is notable more for the interweaving of ideas, since all the specific ideas had appeared already somewhere. --Stan 03:24, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Rubbish. Everybody writes from a point of view, one just does their best to be as NPOV as possible. It is from the interaction of POV's from different people that you get some form of NPOV. Nobody can write about something they are enthusiastic about without some form of POV. I acknowledge that and I would be more than happy if someone more critical edited the article. : ChrisG 11:11, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think maybe you don't understand NPOV yet. There's nothing wrong with enthusiasm, and most people choose to work on things that interest them, but the readers (who are ultimately the reason for doing all this) are not really interested in your personal opinions on a topic, and really don't want to be misled into thinking that your opinion is somehow universal. It's also not a good idea to add in lots of POV, and expect other people to clean it up; if that never happens, the readers are being misled again. If you can't think of how to express something neutrally, better just to leave it out, or ask for advice on the talk page. There's always time to expand an article, while it's almost impossible to track down all the readers and let them know that a mistaken article has been fixed. --Stan 17:03, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I disagree with you quite profoundly. I believe that no-one is capable of true NPOV without the interaction of other people. You believe that you (and presumably others) are capable of NPOV from the start. I think you are far too optimistic about your lack of bias. Everyone is biased, the issue is whether you can rise above your lack of bias when it is pointed out to you. Obviously perceiving reality truly is ideal, but from a philosophical point of view to believe that you have or will ever have that epistemological foundation is rather naive. It is an ideal to aspire to, not a goal you will ever achieve.

As a final point I don't think the article is particularly far off NPOV as it presently stands, certainly there are many more articles far further away. I've now quoted Clarke, Heinlein, the Library Journal, the New York Times Book review and Spark Notes. The views presented in the article are hardly in the minority. Nor were the views I initially stated, before I bothered to find the quotes to back them up, rather than write from memory. --ChrisG 10:45, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Don't read in more than what I said; I agree that NPOV is a goal, not something that springs fully formed from one's forehead. But it's a bad approach to say that because everybody inherently has a POV, there's no point in trying to write neutrally to begin with. Since you've filled in this article to a much greater depth than any other WP editor, it is to some extent "yours" now; other Wikipedians will tend to defer to your judgment, and this very discussion may be all the interaction that the article ever gets. For instance, the quotes and attributions are pretty good now, but I think the net effect is still to overstate the significance of Dune. Even so, I don't have the time or resources to dig up the Dune-hating critics' comments I remember reading, so the slant will remain until you or somebody else fixes it. --Stan 14:29, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't see that it will be a long term problem. As Wikipedia grows more popular, the number of contributors will vastly increase. At the moment people are spread thin throughout the encyclopedia but that will not be the case in a few years. And so any significant article will have multiple interested contributors and NPOV will be achieved. As to this article, I'm sure there are many Dune haters out there, but how many of those hate Science Fiction on principle? Incidentally I never asserted that one shouldn't attempt to write from NPOV, I just said that it is innately impossible, especially when you are writing about something you are enthusiastic about. It's better to accept that, than delude ourselves that we have it. --ChrisG 14:45, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

POV in Dune?

Dune (novel), revision of 14:52, 27 Oct 2003, seems to have added quite a bit of POV. Or is it just me? --orthogonal 22:52, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Orthogonal is referring to this diff in the Dune (novel) article. IMO bold assertions like those made in that addition need some external authoritative sources. What was the thinking behind bringing this to the Village Pump? --Pete 00:13, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I figured it would be noticed in pump. (It was, the OP of that revision toned it down some (but not, I think, enough).) Where should I have posted this? --orthogonal 02:49, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Best place is to put it on the Discussion page for the article. Wikipedians listing Dune for "monitoring" will pick up that uyou added something there. Include a pertinent statement in the "Summary" Editing stuff like this should just be discussed among those working on the specific page, and the Discussion page keeps a record of questions, disputes, resolutions where it is most pertinent. --Marshman 03:19, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

After a little research, it seems clear to me that Dune is very widely considered to be a "landmark novel". Therefore by saying this, surely the editor is stating a fact? --Anjouli 06:42, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Indeed he is; Dune has not only sold remarkably well for a sci-fi novel, it has received serious critical attention, and is usually included in courses on Sci-Fi literature. The problem lies more in how he says, and lack of any specifics. -- Maru Dubshinki 07:37 PM Saturday, 12 March 2005

Dune Timeline

Some years ago I made a more correct timeline for dune because the one made by the author of Dune Encyclopedia did a pretty bad job (and the Encyclopedia is NOT canon!) ;)

1. 201 - 108 BG Butlerian Jihad "two cruel generations" Appendix II / V

2. ~11 200 The 20th century "Mankind's movement through deep space placed a unique stamp on religion during the one hundred and ten centuries that preceded the Butlerian Jihad. " Appendix II

3. 10 191 House Atreides moved to Arrakis (Dune)

~11200 -2000 + 10 191 = ~19391 AD --MilesTeg

I agree this should be changed in the article. At the very least, the Dune Encyclopedia isn't canonical, so figuring the Dune timeline from it shouldn't be presented as such. The Encyclopedia appears to be a few thousand years off.

(But: shouldn't you add 2000, not subtract it? ~2000 years from 1 BC/AD to space travel, 11000 years from space travel to the Butlerian Jihad, 200 years from the Butlerian Jihad to the Guild, 10191 years from the Guild to Dune; when you add them all, it's about 23391 years from 1 BC/AD to Dune, or 23391 AD.) --Anonymous

You are right.

10191 AG = 23391 AD

The timeline that proves it can be found here: http://home.t-online.de/home/duneweb/welt/zeittafel.html

I'm inclined to trust these numbers a lot more than something coming from the Dune Encyclopedia, because (a) it comes from Frank Herbert's writing, (b) it comes from the original Dune novel, and (c) it includes references (which I verified -- good work!).

--MilesTeg

I just changed the Dating System in the article. I´m 100% sure about the data but I´m not so sure about my english ;)

Dune universe

I've created a Dune universe article and have therefore removed that type of material from this article; which was serving as both a article on the novel and the universe. --ChrisG 22:20, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Synopsis

Duplicated material from teaser synopsis for possible later merging:

Dune is the tale of a political conflict among three noble houses: House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino, in the galactic Empire ruled by Shaddam IV of House Corrino, "Padishah Emperor of the Known Universe," at a time of great political instability.

House Corrino's power is supported by military might (their legions of 'Sardaukar' warrior-fanatics are a legendary force popularly considered unbeatable), economic power (they own a controlling stake in the CHOAM corporation, which oversees all interstellar commerce), and political influence, (support from the Spacing Guild, and the Bene Gesserit). Shaddam IV, however, succeeded his father due to the influence and assistance of the Bene Gesserit and the tacit approval of the Guild, who now enjoy considerable influence over the throne.

The political instability of the Emperor is exacerbated by the Bene Gesserit, who have prevented Shaddam IV from producing a male heir and ignited competition among the Great Houses while undermining the power of House Corrino. Concurrently, their centuries-old breeding program to produce the Kwisatz Haderach is nearing fruition.

Shaddam IV sees House Atreides as a threat to his throne. Duke Leto Atreides has become very popular — and powerful — among the noble houses of the Imperium in the Landsraad. In addition, The Duke has created a military force similar to the Sardaukar in combat prowess and dedication, but on a smaller scale. The Emperor fears that it would be a matter of time before the Atreides forces could equal or surpasses his dreaded Sardaukar.

The Emperor decides that House Atreides must be destroyed, but realizes that an open attack on the popular Duke Atreides and his House could unite the individual Houses of the Landsraad against House Corrino (each nobleman would fear being the next House to be isolated and destroyed, and all might unite against the Emperor to prevent this). For this reason, the Emperor conceives of a devious conspiracy using the Atreides's ancient enemies, House Harkonnen, as a weapon against the Duke. Baron Vladimir Harkonnen willingly participates in the plot because of his personal hatred toward the Duke and his House and because he believes he will reap substantial gains in personal and familial power by serving the Emperor, potentially marrying his heir Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen to a Corrino daughter and placing him on the Imperial Throne.

The Emperor awards the Duke a fiefdom, previously held by the Harkonnens, on Arrakis, a desert planet which is the only source of the 'Spice.' Indeed the Spacing Guild and the Bene Gesserit cannot function and exert power without spice — the Guild could not 'fold space' to navigate across immense distances in space, and the Bene Gesserit's powers of memory recall would be stunted. Civilization depends on the Spice, making it the most valuable commodity in the universe.

Despite their misgivings, the Atreides have no choice but to accept the honor and status accorded by this fiefdom, and must relocate to Arrakis. Unbeknownst to the Duke, the Emperor has enlisted the Harkonnens to attack the Atreides shortly after they are installed on Arrakis, under the pretext of their inter-House feud and the Harkonnen loss of Arrakis. They will be covertly aided in this attack by legions of Sardaukar dressed in the livery of House Harkonnen, so as to conceal the Emperor's hand in the destruction of Duke Atreides.

In addition to covert military assistance, the Harkonnen are aided by a traitor they have recruited in House Atreides. The Duke's only son, Paul Atreides, and Paul's mother, the Bene Gesserit Jessica, manage to flee into the desert to seek refuge among Arrakis's indigenous Fremen. Paul Atreides is able to harness the power of the Fremen by appearing to fulfill their religious prophecies while at the same time developing into the Kwisatz Haderach. With help of the Fremen, Paul launches a war to restore Atreides control over Arrakis, avenge the death of his father, assume the Imperial Throne, and become the most powerful man the universe has ever seen.

Restored the more extensive synopsis from history. From what I can see this original synopsis was replaced by a teaser because editor thought it wasn't appropriate to have an extensive synopsis of book. However, Wikipedia is not paper and so there is no reason not to have a detailed synopsis. All the other articles have detailed synopsis as well, as do other articles on various novels. Obviously the synopsis is a spoiler if you haven't read the book; but this is an encyclopedia not a magazine review.

I should, however, note that I originally added all the synopis' for the original series and thus have a personal interest in not having wasted that time writing it in the first place for Wikipedia. --ChrisG 22:17, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To NPOV or not to NPOV....

ChrisG, Stan: I think the discussion about NPOV above is pointless! You just agree on:

• Absolute NPOV from a single editor is not possible

• Editors make an effort to be as NPOV as they can; so if still POV, another editor's POV is needed.

But the point here is how to NPOV this article, and that someone'd better do it. I'm near totally ignorant about Dune, so i cannot help. But you both, ChrisG & Stan, agree on which points are POV!... So you surely know how to fix them!

If I were to write an article on Zelda, it surely would talk of all its goodness. But that doesn't mean I cannot read/research what the critics on it are about! It's not that difficult to write "some people think A because of bla bla bla. Another people think B, considering that blu blu blu"

In conclusion: when we appreciate some piece of text is POVed, we are all capable of [or asking someone to] fix it, so it approaches a little more to NPOV. (And that remains true when the piece of text I consider POVed was written by me!) --euyyn 22:25, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In actual fact the parts of the article which there were disagreements about NPOV were removed at some point over the months I was away from actively editing Wikipedia. Thanks for the reminder, because I certainly believe there needs to be a section on the critical status of Dune in Science Fiction and so I will have to look again at the deleted history --ChrisG 23:20, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Bene Gesserit and Reverend Mothers =

When a Bene Gesserit goes through the initiation to become a reverend mother she does not recieved all of her ancestral memories, she only receives the memories of all the preceding Reverend Mothers in her line, and it is not the "male ancestral memories" that she can not access, just a certain "black" area that terrifies. This may be the male part of the psyche, but I think even that is speculation. I am going to make these changes if no one objects. --ZaQ 12:54, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The memories are limited to all blood lines up the point of conception. The "Black" Area they can not go is ability to see the future. Paul's sister talks to the Baron, and is taken over by him in book III. The space guild navigators are the opposite of the reverend mothers. Where the reverend mothers can look into there past the Navigators and peers into the future to plot a path for the ship so he can navigate through fold space. Yes this needs to be edited!

Introduction

This article is badly in need of a brief overview of the novel in the Introduction section -- 10 lines long max. Anyone coming to the article with no Dune knowledge gets nothing before being dumped into a discussion of Themes and then a long detailed setting and synopsis. --Motor 15:00, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Stop writing articles for experts to read!!! I rely on Wikipedia for one good reason, and this is what it should be all about: to learn about a whole world of knowledge on a topic I haven't the slightest inkling of. Dune..what's Dune? It was a novel from the 60's. Oh, okay, so I'll read about the novel. This page therefore should introduce the ideas of the Dune canon to a reader as if they've never heard of Dune. The problem is, the article mentions Paul and story elements before the reader even knows who Paul is or what the story is about. --Anonymous

The article as it stands is a mess, IMO. It serves no-one well. Newbie or expert. I made a few changes recently (a better first paragraph) and a minor cleanup but it's not anywhere near enough. -Motor 10:25, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

I would scrap the lot and start again more like this: Dune: novel written by Frank Herbert...how important was it for the world/for sci-fi genres etc..now what was it about (briefly)..the premise: what was this universe based around, what are the technologies (nothing to do with Paul yet), and then what happened that led to the events of his book...then at the end mention how and why this book began the whole canon of stuff. --Anonymous

I don't think starting again is needed (or a good idea). We could start by deleting the entire Synopsis section -- it's garbled and long-winded and too fannish. It needs someone to take resposibility for redoing the synopsis and reorder the article. I'll do it, but only as a last resort since I'm not that knowledgble about Dune -- just someone who's read the novel and atttempted a minor clean up about a month ago. Does anyone want to step up? I'm going to make a start by removing the synopsis and and see what it provokes. --Motor 10:25, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Get the idea? Make it without cross references. That's what sets apart professional encyclopedia authors and amateurs like us. Don't make the Britannica people laugh at us! --Anonymous

While I agree with a lot of what you said, this is just trollish and unnecessary. --Motor 10:25, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Deleting/rewriting synopsis

Motor, working on the article is not deleting the whole synopsis. Wikipedia is not paper and space restrictions are not an issue. If you want to work on the article/synopsis then fine; but outright deleting the section is inappropriate behaviour. --ChrisG 13:46, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have to wonder whether you bothered to read the talk page before reverting and writing this. This isn't a space issue. It's a quality one. I made it quite clear that I'm willing to work on this page unless someone else with more Dune experience comes along. The Synopsis as it stands is unencyclopedic... with it in, no-one seems to want to tackle a large block of fannish writing... without it perhaps the article has a chance of improving. I'd hoped that removing the offending block of text would actually provoke someone into improving it rather than a knee-jerk response about space restrictions (BTW, wikipedia articles have a recommeded size limit, not for space, but for readability and to prevent them just getting longer and long rather than better -- which is exactly the problem with the synposis). --Motor 15:08, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

I'll volunteer: whoever wrote these synopses (they seem to comprise the entirety of some of the less-well known Dune novel articles) didn't do a very good job. Too much detail, and is too confusing. I expect I'll focus on how the plot is multiply stranded: have any suggestions, post'em below. -- Maru Dubshinki 07:35 PM Saturday, 12 March 2005

Check the edit history before you insult someone's work; and while your at it you might also want to delete the synopsis' to all the other five original dune novels. Cheers. :ChrisG 20:27, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Har har Chris- I am foolhardy and arrogant; not insane. -- Maru Dubshinki 05:44 PM Sunday, 13 March 2005

I agree that the "synopsis" as written is not encyclopedic style and is also longer than necessary. I would like to take a crack at the synopsis as well, let's see how it goes. Kaisershatner 15:47, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Congatulations, I think you've done a pretty good job. I think maybe "Introduction" would be better heading than "Description without spoilers", and perhaps themes should come after the new/smaller synopsis -- but apart from that, well done. Motor 16:54, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)

Synopsis Pt.2

As I mentioned above feel free to rewrite/improve the synopsis for this or the other original Dune novels , I don't own them; and I would be ecstatic if someone would seriously improve them. Its just Motor and yourself majorly underestimates how difficult it is to write a synopsis for a novel as complex as Dune starting from a blank screen. Criticising an article is easy and copyediting fairly easy compared to writing a long original article. Apologies for my curtness. :ChrisG 20:50, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think you are over-estimating what is required for a synopsis. It doesn't need a detailed description of the plot points. It just a short one-page plot summary. Look at the current state of the article from the point of view of someone looking up Dune because they've heard about it on the TV/Radio/Web. The introduction section tells you nothing other than the fact that Dune was originally two shorter works, and that Herbert dedicated it to some ecologists. Then the reader is dumped into a discussion about "Themes"? Eh? For what? We haven't even told people what Dune is about. We then follow it up with a blizzard of jargon and strange names: Butlerian Jihad, Mentats and Bene Gesserits. And finally a Synopsis that is far too long and detailed to provide any information to newbies, and which adds little for those familiar with Dune already. As I said way, way back before this current fuss -- this article needs a 10-15 line intro to what Dune is about. Plus, a synopsis should be no longer than a page. IMO, the basic structure of the article should be:

• Introductory pagagraph - Dune is a Sci-book, date of publication, mention of other media.
• Introduction - What is Dune? What is the basic story? No mention of Butlerian Jihad (leave that for the Dune universe article). Just keep it simple and as jargon free as possible. Introduce Paul.
• Synopsis - Introduce the major characters and organisations (Leto, Jessica, Imperial house, Atreides, Harkonnen, Fremen) and the planet itself. Spice (and its effects). Worms. Paul ends up in the desert and builds a power base to take over Arrakis/Dune, and because of the Spice... the empire too. Sure it's short and skips detail... but that's what a synopsis is.
• Themes - economics, religious, political, ecological. Here's where you can go to town with more detail and discussion.
• Fuller list of characters and organisations: The major ones and smaller ones such a Mentats, Bene Gesserit, Halleck, Idaho, Alia, Yueh etc etc.
• Awards
• See also
• Ext links

BTW: I do realise that you put a lot of work into the synopsis. It's not my aim to insult you over it and if it comes across that way I apologise. --Motor 12:30, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

That's a pretty good basis, but I had been thinking more of:

• Introduction: a really abbreivated summary of Dune Universe, and a capsule summary of why the Atreides are going to Arrakis. Backstory and context in other words.
• Events: the actual stuf that y'know, happens in the book, finishing with Paul as Emperor and a wikilink to the next book.
• Critical look: themes, textual features, maybe history of book if not already covered in the w/u. I'm trying to find a book that made a big thing of the threaded-ness, the 'polyphonic' quality of the books, so it might be a while before I can produce a critical summary.

-- Maru Dubshinki

Sounds fine. I'm glad you said "abbreviated summary" of Dune universe. If you treat it as an article about Dune the standalone novel rather than Dune the saga, it will make writing it more manageable, and make it a lot easier to read. Though obviously there will be parts later in the article about its place in the larger saga. I look forward to seeing the result. Motor 15:47, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Media Mention

The 'Dune' article got mentioned in Slate today- [1];

Wikipedia is a colossal improvement—it's just like the fictional Hitchhiker's Guide, only nerdier. Wikipedia is the Web fetishist's ideal data structure: It's free, it's open-source, and it features a 4,000-word exegesis of Dune.

I'm not sure if that is a compliment or insult, but I'm posting it anyways. --maru 11:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Geographic extent

Just reverted an anon's edit; do we actually know whether the empire embraces multiple empires? The descriptions of the Guild implies that it can travel essentially anywhere it knows of, but the empire was formed of pre-guild colonized planets, so athe geographic extent seems to me uncertain, and thusly unwarranted to put in such a claim. Appreciate any feedback. --maru 13:35, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Detailed Synopsis?

Have just read through the article and overall it's pretty good but i think in order to be considered as a more encyclopaedic entry it should lose the detailed synopsis. The reasons being is that for those that have read the book and want to look up dune, i'm imagining they would like to know about things such as: its critical reception, the ideas and themes that Herbert explores within the book and it's influence on the literary world. For those who have never read the book the detailed synopsis really goes into too much depth about a great book which they should seek out and explore themselves. A brief synopsis will entice new readers where as a long one detailing plot strands and character events pre-empties the enjoyment of reading the book.

I think if you erased the detailed synopsis and instead expanded on the theme section with more detailed and thorough research with opinions from academia, how the book was received in critical circles both positive and negative and also the impact the book has had on the genre of science fiction that would make for a great article about a fantastic book (in my opinion possibly the best book iv'e read to this date).

To those who have written and edited the detailed synopsis i can see that you have put a huge amount of time and effort in to it but i think that it would be better to sacrifice this section for the betterment of the article. What do people think? --Yakuzai 21:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you look higher up, you'll see that I did indeed intend to do just that (well, minus the scholarly apparatus part). How's it going and when will I post it? Err.... Soon! --maru 22:36, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Copyedits Dec 2005, and Long Synopsis

I made some structural changes. As much as I love "themes" and "allegory" they really have to go under the synopsis. No sense discussing the implications of the story w/o mentioning...the actual story. In addition, I really think the long synopsis is un-necessary and we ought to consider removing it. I hate to trash so much work, but I'm not sure it adds to the article. There's a similar problem at Les Miserables. It's also a long book. Kaisershatner 17:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Specific quote about Dune

I distinctly and specifically remember reading a quote or article that said Frank Herbert's conception of the story of Dune finished with God Emperor of Dune. Am I making this up or can someone verify this for me? Matrixfusion 03:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Famous lines

This will be incorporated into the article as soon as it is matured.

• 'Father, the Sleeper has awakened'. -Paul Atreides upon mastering the ride on the worm.

I think one of the units in Warcraft 3 sais 'the sleeper has awakened' right after it is built. (Druid?) Bertus 12:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

• 'Mood? What has mood got to do with it? Mood is for cows,or for love or playing the balisset. Mood is not for fighting." - counsel of Gurey HAlleck to young Paul who did not want to practice knife fighting by saying he wasn't in the mood for it.
• The spice must flow' -Guild navigator issuing instructions to the Emperor
• 'He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing' -Paul
• 'Get me that floating fat man!' The Emperor upon landing on Dune
• 'His name is a killing word' -In fact NOT from the book, but rather the 80's movie.
• 'I will not fear, fear is the little death that brings total annihilation' -The Bene Gessariat Mantra against fear (I forget the full version about where you turn around)

In case this is still an active issue, I wanted to note that it is more appropriate to list quotes from the novel(s) in Wikiquote: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dune This article is already lengthy and a list of quotes here adds nothing of value. TAnthony 18:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Farad'n a character?

While Farad'n is a member of House Corrino, I do not recall his presence in this book. If indeed he is not present then I don't think it would be appropriate for him to receive mention here.

I believe that Farad'n was referenced as one of the potential heirs to to the throne. Although I have to agree, his presence in the first book of Dune isn't noteworthy. GreatMizuti 13:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis errors?

There are some things I have problems with and I thought it best to present them to the writers of the article and let them decide if they want to edit it or not.

"While they anticipate a trap, the Atreides are unable to withstand a devastating Harkonnen attack, supported by Imperial Sardaukar dressed as Harkonnen troops and aided by a traitor within House Atreides itself. Duke Leto is assassinated, but Paul and Jessica escape into the deep desert. "

The Duke isn't assassinated, with the help of the Suk Doctor Yueh he commits suicide attempting to assassinate the Baron Harkonnen in a final act of somewhat ironic revenge.

"Paul emerges as the Kwisatz Haderach, and Jessica's knowledge of the secret religious myths of the Fremen planted by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva enable Paul to become Muad'Dib, a religious and political leader (Mahdi) who unites millions of the Fremen together into an unstoppable military force."

Paul isn't the Kwisatz Haderach, he admits this himself in the book, that he is in fact "something other" this is confirmed by Leto II in the fourth book, God Emperor, but wrt the novel, which I'm sure is what is important to the article, Paul declares that he isn't.

"Paul and Jessica are sent out into the desert to die. Because of the use of truthsayers in the Empire, the Baron Harkonnen needs to be able to say truthfully that he was not (directly) responsible for their deaths."

The reason the Baron needs to be able to truthfully claim that he wasn't responible for their deaths is because he fears reprisals from the Bene Gesserit for ordering the death of one of their agents and, unbeknownst to him, a prized bloodline.

"Meanwhile, Yueh, realizing that it is likely that the Harkonnens have been playing him for a dupe, and that his wife is probably dead already, plants a poison gas capsule, disguised as a tooth, in Leto's mouth, and informs Leto about it."

Yueh honestly didn't suspect that his wife, a Bene Gesserit agent, was dead, he just despised the despotic Baron enough to plan an assassination attempt.

"The Spacing Guild have no choice - their limited powers of prophecy show Paul is capable of it - and they send everyone home. "

Guild Navigators cannot see Paul in their prescience (nor can he see them) however, as Paul points out, what he perceives to be the flaw of the Spacing Guild is that they always take the safest option and it is not that they know he is capable of it but rather that they suspect that he would. Not the safest option. GreatMizuti 14:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Something I like to add to the list of errors would be: "... Instead, Shaddam uses a centuries-old feud between House Atreides and House Harkonnen as cover for his assault, enlisting the brilliant and power-hungry Baron Vladimir Harkonnen in a chance to eliminate his most hated rivals."

This contradicts with one of the chapter introductions in the novel. In one of them it is clearly stated that Emperor Shaddam admired the Duke Atreides (and secretly wanted him to be his son) and regretted the situation which made them enemies (Excuse me for not being able to find the right page)
As for the Harkonnens, Shaddam's personal opinion of them is never revealed (?) Therefore I think "most hated" is wrong here and should either be dropped or be replaced with something in the lines of "greatest". --Timenn 18:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll just throw in a couple of comments:

Yueh did suspect that his wife was already dead. In fact, he's almost certain of it. In the novel the thing he is most after is to see the Baron so that he can be "sure" of it... and, of course, that he has his chance to kill the Baron by way of the poison tooth.

While your last point does contradict one of the chapter introductions, you should note that the chapter introduction is written by the Princess Irulan. I've always thought of her as something of an apologist for her father's cutthroat politics. Justin Bacon 03:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the "his" in "his most hated rivals" was intended to refer to the Baron, not Shaddam. It's not wrong, it's just ambiguous writing, and needs fixing. Bowfee 18:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Astronomical error

Removed "The Imperium is often mistaken as a galactic one, but it seems that the stars have their own nebulas." as it makes no sense whatsoever. Clarityfiend 00:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Best-selling science fiction novel of all time?

I came across the quote and citation in this article that discusses Dune as the best-selling science fiction novel of all time, with more than 12 million copies sold. That just doesn't seem like that many to me, but I can't discover a way to retrieve sales figures on novels such as Jurassic Park, Stranger in a Strange Land, Frankenstein, or 2001. Is there a way to fact-check this claim? Benji 15:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the claim comes from the publisher here, so the trail ends there. Short of actually seeing the raw statistics for all booksellers from the 1900s on, I'm not sure how one would fact-check such an assertion. --maru (talk) contribs 03:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The publisher's claim has the feel of factless publicity. Since it's a simple factual claim that Dune is the best-selling science fiction novel of all time (12 million copies sold is the figure that seems to stick in my mind), it would be a simple matter of finding out if any science fiction novel has sold more than 12 million copies. I'm just hoping that someone more familiar with publishing figures than myself could offer some actual proof of the numbers involved here.Benji 16:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis house-cleaning

Did a bit of minor clean-up. One thing stood out as questionable and I have moved it here for discussion:

"By then Earth is no longer inhabited..."

I can find no direct statement or reference to this in Dune. If there is one, please note it here and replace this in the article. (I'll continue to check for myself as well.)

SandChigger 21:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I can go looking things up if you want, but I'm fairly sure that in Dune Messiah, when Paul was having Stilgar study history, Earth is referred to as "mythical" and in the past tense. --maru (talk) contribs 18:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No need, Maru. Is this what you're thinking of:

"The Golden Age of Earth, have you ever studied that?"

"Earth? Golden Age?" Stilgar was irritated and puzzled. Why would Paul wish to discuss myths from the dawn of time?

found on p.91 (out of 222) of Messiah. That Stilgar regards Earth as mythical does not necessarily mean it is no longer inhabited, does it? --SandChigger 03:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Bleh. Maybe that didn't quite prove what I thought it did. --maru (talk) contribs 03:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you remember any names they might have used other than "(Old) Earth" or "(Old) Terra"? (If you follow my drift... ;) --SandChigger 03:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Maru, I've also found this, from Children (p.226/380):

St. Thomas was preserved in the Orange Catholic Bible and the Azhar Book, but Canterbury was gone from the memories of men, as was the planet which had known it.

Like a has-been movie star, forgotten but not gone? Sorry, still nothing conclusive. --SandChigger 17:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It would seem logical that if the earth was still populated then it would not be known as a myth but as a reality. While this does not directly indicate an abandoned earth it does mean that those in the known universe are not aware of it, its location or what level of habitation it has. By Occam's Razor the most likely reason is that it cannot be found and is not of value to find (Hence the reference to myth and gone from memory). Makes a lot more sense and is "simpler" than an earth which still has a population but is somehow unknown to the universe and does not seek to interact with anyone within it? Enigmatical 06:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I've finally found the quote I was thinking of. It's one of the epigraphs, early on in GEoD:

"Keep it all intact," I warn myself. Who can deny the value of such experiences, the worth of learning through which I view each new instant? Ahhh, but it's the past. Don't you understand? It's only the past! a yurt at the edge of a horse-plain in a land of a planet which no longer exists. Tomorrow I will be born someone else in another place. II have not yet chosen. This morning, though-ahhh, this life! When my eyes had learned to focus, I looked out at sunshine on trampled grass and I saw vigorous people going about the sweet activities ... oh where has all of that vigor gone? -The Stolen Journals"

The relevant portion here is "land of a planet which no longer exists." He's obviously talking about Earth, since none of the other planets have yurts, and elsewhere whenever Herbert refers to pre-Industrial age cultural artifacts like that, it's always been in reference to Earth (like Leto II and Ghanima speaking French, for example). --maru (talk) contribs 01:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You're tcertain about that? Coulda been Harmonthep, maybe? :) SandChigger 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Harmonthep? What was that? --maru (talk) contribs 13:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Harmonthep: Ingsley gives this as the planet name for the sixth stop in the Zensuuni migration. It is supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite of Delta Pavonis.[2] Earth is more likely, but we can't be certain so it's all speculation. -- Миборовский 21:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Miborovsky beat me to it, just as I was editing! (Cheers!) I'm not trying to say that you're wrong exactly, just that there's an assumption that might not be valid. See Yurt for mention of (current) "Industrial Age enthusiasts". SandChigger 21:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

But who is Ingsley and why do we care? --maru (talk) contribs 01:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

{{spoiler}}

I would assume that he is a historian in the Duniverse.

Which is a very dangerous thing to do, since it means the entire glossary could have been written "in character", meaning compleat with all the fallibilities and limitations that flesh is heir to. (In short, any inconsistencies within it could be thrown out using the "Irulan Gambit", like the location of Paul's birthplace. Which has now been made a fact of canon in Hunters anyway, in that it is explicitly stated by a character in the text.)

OOPS! PREVIOUS LINE CONTAINS SPOILER! SandChigger 06:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

{{endspoiler}}

Assumptions are the first step into an early grave... --maru (talk) contribs 01:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

"Do you want to live forever?" - Valeria. I find no mention anywhere else of an Ingsley who would/could have commented on the Delta Pavonis system. Sic. SandChigger 02:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

"If I wanted to die, I'd take care of the job myself!" Yeah, I'm not finding this Ingsley thing very satisfying; it's also kind of annoying I can't find any smoking gun quotes even though it is obvious Earth is one with Nineveh, as the saying goes. --maru (talk) contribs 02:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

While Earth is referred to as mythical, this is a common sc-fi plot device, and almost never means that Earth is no longer inhabited. The usual reason that Earth is mythical is because it is so far away, and because the protoagonist's forbears left Earth so very long ago. Or because Earth is (by default) left with insular, conservative isolationists who discourage interaction with those who have left. I'm not saying that any of these is implied in Dune, merely that earth being mythical ceratinaly does not imply that it is no longer inhabited. That would be one of the least likely conclusions that I would draw.Leeborkman 01:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't buy the distance bit. Caladan (Delta Pavonis III) is only about 20 ly from Earth. SandChigger 06:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

More POV

Someone has spammed the article again. I think it was the same person. I agree that this is spam, but I agree with the point of view.

Allusions/references to actual history, geography and current science - full of POV?

eg, this new addition: "Bene Gesserit is clearly a reference to the Jesuit Order founded by Ignatius of Loyla - an organization known for soldierly discpline and great learning." Leeborkman 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, I see that someone else removed it as I was typing. Leeborkman 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted the edit which divided this section with a new subsection devoted to Islamic parallels with the life story of Muhammed. I felt this was a poor way of doing it, hence the revert. SandChigger 11:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Dune vs Dunia

re "clear wordplay" - Dune vs dunia. Not credible: a) in FH's notes the world was referred to as "Dune Planet" or "Duneworld" (see The Road to Dune); b) FH has repeatedly written that the inspiration for the novel was a piece he researched on using plants to halt encroaching sand dunes; c) there's no evidence FH knew Arabic before starting Dune. (Just because Anthony Burgess knowingly used dunia as the name of an invented nation in Devil of a State doesn't mean FH is likely to have done so.) Tanzeelat 10:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I put the {{fact}} tag on this earlier but wondered if it shouldn't be moved here for discussion. I'll notify Oryanw that I've done this. SandChigger 12:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• The name of the planet (and the novel), Dune, is a clear wordplay: The word dune in English refers to a large sandmound while the planet Dune is a desert planet. And the word dunia (and similar sounding loanwords) in Arabic and many Arabic influenced languages of Africa and South Asia means world, a fact made particularly significant by the many Middle Eastern references in the work. The planet Dune is a large desert world unto itself.

Honestly, that just strikes me a stupid. Well of course Dune's name refers to the sand dunes which comprise it... --Gwern (contribs) 14:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to SandChigger for moving this here (and alerting me), and to Tanzeelat for his/her interesting comments. Perhaps I should have written astonishing coincidence instead of clear wordplay. But since the citation requested is to FH's thought processes (properly so, since clear wordplay seems now to me to presuppose intent on FH's part, which I doubt anyone has a citation for) and not to an Arabic dictionary, supporting astonishing coincidence would involve proving a negative. I don't think the word *pun* necessarily implies intent one way or another. Substituting the word pun (or some other intent-neutral term), I believe my observation is valid and worth commenting on. But I won't replace it. The "pun" does strike me as obvious, for the reasons given. (I am not familiar with the Burgess novel, nor had I yet studied any Arabic when I became aware of the widespread use of the word dunia. Thanks to all for your comments. Most educational. O'RyanW (☺

₪) 20:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

More wordplay: The 'Myst' series of computer games and novels refers to a world called "D'ni" and pronounced 'Dunny'. This world is the origin of the participants. Although there are many desert references in the game the fantasy novels suggest D'ni is depp inside the Earth itself (but one of the entrances in this world lies in a desert according to one). Other names in the mist milieu show some signs of arabic roots or origins too. (Larger Lout) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.120.81.205 (talk) 11:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, as they say in the Arab world, dunia mathal khayara... :-) Tanzeelat 21:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The thing was writ with sand? And none saw what he wrote? C'mon, don't tease us here. --Gwern (contribs) 03:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Spice agony?

What is this? I don't recall ever seeing this mentioned in the novels -- at least up to God Emperor. Unless someone can point it out in one of the texts, my guess is that it's a mistranslation of "spice trance". I've also posted this question on the talk page. See Talk:Spice agony. Alcarillo 15:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Answered there, but again, the phrase does not occur until Heretics. (Or "Hairy Ticks", as I prefer!) --SandChigger 17:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

See my comments at Talk:Spice agony, but I've altered the reference here for accuracy. TAnthony 18:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Is the way the section reads now strictly correct though? Before Jessica's conversion with the Water of Life on Arrakis, didn't the BG use other drugs to induce the Agony? (Also, I went back and reread the passage describing Jessica's transformation in Dune last night and, frankly, it didn't seem all that physically traumatic. ???) --SandChigger 23:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, so I adjusted it further; but though I believe that afterwards only the spice-essence method was used by the BG, I always assumed it was more a concentrated spice overdose rather than sandworm bile. If you know the truth of that, it probably should be noted here. TAnthony 00:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I've always assumed they used a dose of Water of Life. I'll see if I can find something. (Maybe there's some specific mention in the account of Murbella's daughter that fails in Hunters? Will check later...) I added mention of the Water of LIfe, btw. --SandChigger 04:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Wait, are you looking for Dune facts in HUNTERS ?!?! Surely hell has frozen over. LOL. TAnthony 05:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't blow a gasket there, OK? :) I just mentioned it as a ready reference, one place to look for a hint, that's all. (My view is that there has to be some FH in the new books, however hard to find!) --SandChigger 05:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Iraq, Saddam, Islam

What, no mention in the real-world allusions section on how Arrakis is meant to sound like Iraq and Shaddam like Saddam? No mention of the Feydakin or Zensunni beliefs? Dune literally drips with references to Iraq and to Islam.

http://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.5.3.112 (talk) 20:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

Hmm, a book from 1965 was written with allusions to the leadership of Iraq by Saddam Hussein, who only became president of Iraq fourteen years later in July 1979? Very interesting... you can see why it's not included. timrem 20:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

And don't forget that Ar-rakis literally means "The Dancer" when translated into arabic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.202.108.24 (talk • contribs) 04:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Mentioned on the Arrakis page, not needed here. --SandChigger 11:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It does seem like there should be a discussion of the way Herbert draws on and integrates Islam and other religious traditions in the book. The centrality of religion as a theme in the books is not really reflected in the article. This has nothing to do with contemporary political conflict, but it is interesting that Herbert thought Islam important at a time it wasn't on the radar for most people. (Whereas there was great interest in Asian religions in the 60's and 70's.) I was hoping to find some discussion of what in FH's background accounts for this.131.238.31.40 17:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Fan Sites

I would like a qualification/clarification provided for eligibility for inclusion of new links to this section. From the sites I see currently listed, and with the Wikipedia guidelines on external linking in mind, it seems appropriate to add established fan sites to the designated section in this article: communities where no registration is required, the site is free and accessible to all, is representative of a section of the Dune fan community, where there is no advertising, and where the content relates to the subject matter of the wiki article. I fail to see the objection to the inclusion of my edit, and would like a detailed explanation as to why. If fan sites are deemed inappropriate to list, then remove them all, along with the section itself, from the article. Arbitrary editing is inappropriate in the context of Wikipedia. 84.71.43.63 17:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are misreading the intent as well as the wording of some of the guidelines. Simple registration (creating a user account, with or without email address verification) is rapidly becoming a necessity with the increase in comment spammers; none of the fan sites listed requires payment of a fee to do so, nor to simply view the site content. Which guideline states that a site must be representative of the fan community? The guidelines mention "objectionable amounts of advertising" not "no advertising". The strongest argument for non-inclusion is Guideline #13, relevance.

Does anyone else want to weigh in on this one? --SandChigger 02:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I've registered for an account as you suggested. The issue I have is that user:IPSOS is arbitrarily deciding which links are included within the external fan sites and which are not. I sent communications to the user's talkpage without any response, and posted here for discussion (again without any response from IPSOS). I have read the wiki guidelines on adding external links, and do not believe the site I have added contravenes the rules, yet it is still removed despite the fact that other links on the list do contravene some of the guidelines (advertising for example). My point is this: a single user cannot arbitrarily decide what should and should not be included. The guidelines are clear. It's a case of allowing the inclusion of relevant links, or removing the section entirely. I will take this to mediation if the article continues to be arbitrarily edited in conflict with the aims and objectives of Wikipedia. Coldmachine 13:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Just playing the devil's advocate here. According to this http://www.dunepbem.tapirdesigns.co.uk/forum/ there are only 34 registered members. That doesn't seem very notable. Is a significant portion of the site membership NOT registered for or using the forum for some reason? Just wondering.... --SandChigger 10:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes there are limited numbers of participants, but the site is the foremost pbem community relating to Dune and has inspired numerous off-shoots. A Google search will tell you that, coupled with the fact it's been running for over four years now. Quality, not quantity, so the saying goes. The group is representative of the pbem section of the Dune fan base, and that's why it ought to be included particularly since other listed fan sites contravene Wikipedia's own guidelines on external links (again, I mention advertising as the key point). Coldmachine 20:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I should add; I'm just going through the listed links now and houseatreides.com is not responding, The Sietch has around 10-20 active participants of the 122 registered, and there are copyright issues involved in Dune 2k with reengineering an old PC game. Coldmachine 20:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but how representative of the total fanbase is this "play by email" faction? (I wasn't even aware of the existence of such a thing until you brought it up. But then, I'm not much of a gamer of any sort.) As for the advertising, it's much less obtrusive on these sites than some others I have seen. Like registration, it's a fact of modern Internet life. Again, the guideline does not say "no advertising". --SandChigger 17:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well if you haven't encountered pbem-ing then that's your own loss and ignorance! The existence of something is not factual based on whether or not you personally have experience with it. I recommend Google as your first line of enquiry. I'm not debating the scale of the pbem community, just as an equivalent counterpoint would be "how representative of the total fanbase is a group of people who reengineer an old computer game?". I don't ask for the exclusion of existing links, merely the addition of another suitable link. I fail to see the logic behind the vehement objection to this when the link fits the Wiki criteria, and the article benefits from a broad range of appropriate links. I can only assume there's some personal issue? Perhaps mediation might be an idea? Coldmachine 08:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Attacking me certainly does bolster your argument. I'm merely playing the devil's advocate here and frankly couldn't care one way or the other. You seem to be the one with the emotional investment. (Case in point: your seemingly retaliatory removal of the House Atreides site link?) Whatever. I'll leave it for others to deal with this. --SandChigger 19:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Attacking you? Hardly. I apologise if you misunderstood my response to your criticism of "this "play by email" faction". We're a group of fans, not a faction, and "this" group of fans has large numbers of active players which - as I say - is beside the point since we're not here to debate the scale of a given section of the Dune fan community as I outlined above. The emotional investment I hold is merely a pursuit of fair treatment under the Wiki guidelines which appear to be applied erratically and with an inappropriate level of discretion by editors of this particular article. As I say: I suggest either all the fan links are removed entirely if there's a nepotistic approval system in place, or permit the inclusion of additional links which relate to the article content.Coldmachine 08:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Split Request

The page currently has two full plot summaries. The first is fairly short, and while it glosses over the second half of the book, feels like the right length. The second is a huge detailed summary. If it is Wikipedia's job to provide such a detailed summary (is it?), then it should probably be on a separate page. Splitting off the second summary would allow this article to grow in the areas it needs to -- thematic issues and real-world importance -- while keeping article size down. Adbaxter 21:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It's been 6 weeks since Adbaxter's proposal, and it's garnered no support. I've removed the split-proposed tag from the article. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler tags

There seems to be no start of spoiler warning. Just the "spoilers end here" notice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.226.241.126 (talk • contribs) 09:50, May 17, 2007

There's been a recent campaign to remove spoiler tags lately (I don't get it, but ...). They took out the initial tag but missed the "endspoiler", I'll get it. TAnthony 17:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Broken (Recursive) Link

In the section Dune references in popular culture, the link that apparently goes to a separate articles simply redirects to this one, causing a loop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.100.20.88 (talk • contribs) 01:43, June 2, 2007

I think you maye have come across the article in the middle of Haemo's re-merge of the material back in. All links there seem fine, let me know if I'm missing something. TAnthony 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Fan sites redux

Most of the fan sites fail either #10 or #11 on Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided. That is, they are either blogs or social networking sites such as forums or mailing lists. In any case, the external links section is not supposed to be a linkfarm. Linking to DMOZ is the recommended solution in such a case, and as nearly all the links are there, is the path we should take here, I think. GlassFET 20:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Believe it or not I actually agree but on the premise that the entire fan links section be removed. It seems to be causing more grief than it does good. The problem is that deciding which links are 'appropriate' or not for inclusion in such a section leads to lack of objectivity, and ends up based on personal preference. It's my opinion that the section be removed entirely.Coldmachine 22:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Great, that appears to be precisely what was done, with an addition of a link to DMOZ. I support the change that you reverted. GlassFET 22:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it because you made a major edit without waiting for consensus. You opened discussion, true, but made a significant edit without waiting for a reply. Let's see what the others think, yes? That is, after all, what consensus is about. We are both in agreement on the removal of the fan links section in entirety, does anyone else object? Coldmachine 22:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I am being WP:BOLD. A long list of fansites violates WP:EL guidelines. If you don't personally object, don't revert. It's my right to edit boldly and you are the edit warrior in this case. I was restoring another user's edit that I agreed with. Please stop your warring. GlassFET 22:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Being BOLD does not "excuse a disregard of Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View and the other five pillars of Wikipedia", the fourth point of which includes achieving consensus. I think that cooling off is needed: you seem to be taking this very personally by blaming this 'warring' on me. It takes two to tango, as they say. I'll wait for the other editors of this article to chip in with what they think about the idea of removing the section. In the meantime I suggest that personal attacks are held back while we cool off some. Coldmachine 22:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Show me the consensus discussion you are referring to. If there was no previous consensus, there is no issue. You cool off. Yes, when you revert in the name of an imaginary former "consensus" with which you do not even agree, you are violating WP:POINT. Edit warring to make a point is just plain silly. GlassFET 22:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your revert because you did not wait for any response in this discussion page concerning such a major change to the article. Again, personal attacks are unnecessary. I suggested we both cool off. I'll be leaving this discussion for the time being to give others the chance to contribute. Have the last word, it's all yours :) Coldmachine 22:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Despamming the article is hardly a "major change". IPSOS (talk) 16:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

And the links which have been removed hardly constituted "spam". (Check the definition somewhere if you're not sure what the word means.)

No one seems interested enough in keeping the links to contest the deletion, so I'm not going to, either. More important fish to fry at the moment. :) --SandChigger 14:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a repository of links. In such cases where there are a large number of fan type links, rather than link to them directly, one is encouraged to link to DMOZ, which does maintain a directory of links. IPSOS (talk) 14:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Why, quote me chapter and verse! Yeah, there were so many fan site links that they were dwarfing the article content. I completely agree. --SandChigger 08:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Inline citations

I think that inline citations would be the single best way to improve this article. It would sort out the fact from the fanaticism, would encourage better editing, and would be a huge help in getting the article to GA status. Wrad 00:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The Two Plot Summaries

One of those things has to go. I don't care which one. Tommy.rousse 03:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I think a split request was attempted not long ago (see above) and it didn't gain any consensus so the tag was removed. Coldmachine^Talk 07:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Clarification

Overall, I'm impressed with the general cleanliness and non-"in-universe"-ness of this article. However, upon reading the introductory paragraphs, I found that it was very hard to read once you hit the third and final paragraph. I found that half of the paragraph was made up of one gigantic run-on:

"He took a plane to Florence, Oregon, where the USDA was sponsoring a lengthy series of experiments in using poverty grasses to stabilize and slow down the damaging sand dunes, which could "swallow whole cities, lakes, rivers, highways";[3] his article on that, "They Stopped the Moving Sands", was never completed (and was only published decades later in an incomplete form in The Road to Dune) but it interested Herbert in the general subject of ecology and related matters; he spent the next five years continuing research and writing and rewriting[4] what would eventually become Dune,[5] though it was Spice Planet before the novel was serialized in the magazine Analog from 1963 to 1965 as two shorter works, Dune World and The Prophet of Dune."

Too many semicolons, parentheses, general information in that one sentence. Maybe someone with better knowledge of the subject than me could clean this one up a bit? Thanks in advance. -ExNoctem 22:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Esmar Tuek

Tuek is not a Fremen, he just works closely with them. I know it for FACT but i cant find a reference --FTWonkerton (talk) 06:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

From Dune:

"...The smuggler's called Tuek, Esmar Tuek. He's a power among his kind. They all know him here. He's dined at many of the houses."

That do it? :D --SandChigger (talk) 08:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

From Dune:

"Why didn't you invite some Fremen?"

Leto says this right afterwards, so I would assume Tuek isn't one. There is also the bit where Gurney is interviewed by Tuek (I believe) where more description is offered. I think this mentions him as having non-blue eyes. --FTWonkerton (talk) 09:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow I'm an idiot. Allegiances, not actually being a Fremen. --FTWonkerton (talk) 10:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Error?

I think there is an error in this entry. Leto II, Paul's son becomes the new emperor in the next book, but in this article it states Paul's son was killed. Either he had two sons or something is wrong. I have not read the books myself but I am an avid fan of the original movie.

74.137.18.74 (talk) 05:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)ManBear

Two sons. The first was killed by Sardaukar in the raid that captured Alia; it was Chani's second son who became God-Emperor. (As you surmise, this is covered in Dune the novel.) --Gwern (contribs) 05:25 22 January 2008 (GMT)

Original research

Per WP:OR I've reverted the insertion of original research again. When an editor reverts the inclusion of content, rather than reinserting it and precipitate an edit war - in which the individual doing so is then clearly the edit warrior - it is a better idea to come to the talk page and argue the case for adding that content. So far this material still reads as a synthesis of original research, especially that blockquote from the website which was then included in the External Links section as a critical review page for Dune: even the description of the site makes it obvious this is original research. Coldmachine^Talk 08:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I find your edits peculiar and unjustified. Your second edit[3] removes quite a bit of material sourced to Herbert himself; only two of the paragraphs strike me as potentially overreaching, and I suspect those could be cited.

Your first edit[4] is even worse. You simply reverted me, irrespective of my additions! Your argument against O'Reilly's book is odd. Of course it's original research in the same way any literary study is. Would you have reverted me if I had linked not to the e-book O'Reilly has kindly provided for free for us Dune editors, but instead added a bunch of bibliographic information from WorldCat? O'Reilly, Timothy. Frank Herbert (1st ed.). New York, USA: Ungar. p. 216. ISBN 9780804466172. OCLC 7175483. Retrieved 2008. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)... --Gwern (contribs) 19:42 4 March 2008 (GMT)

Hi, thanks for coming to the talk page to resolve this. First off, no need to get personal about my edits. Second of all, here's a breakdown of things and why I believe the content you're pushing for inclusion constitutes WP:OR:

• Paragraph opens with: "The setting is notable for what is removed from the usual list of available technologies available to the protagonists."

1. Then goes on to cite material to advance this literary hypothesis or view (i.e. WP:OR)
2. Cites two sources, one which is completely lacking in detail (just "Frank Herbert, O'Reilly"), and the second which is not reliable since it's self published work, to support this view.

• Paragraph opens with: "The novel's combination of space travel with medieval weaponry was usually seen in works regarded as kitsch, such as the Flash Gordon series, or the Barsoom stories of Edgar Rice Burroughs."

1. Then goes on to cite material in relation to this literary view (as I say, an indication in itself of WP:OR)
2. Cites one source, which is the same as the previous self-published non verifiable work.

There are three content policies which are all interlinked: no original research is one, and the others are verifiability and neutral point of view. I believe that the content you're pushing to include lacks verifiability (it doesn't come from a reliable source) and it's a synthesis of literary views put together to push forward original research. Coldmachine^Talk 22:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

As an addendum: I took a look at what other articles are doing on this point and there's an example over at The Lord of the Rings where 'themes' are given a separate article, although as a caveat even this has been tagged with the original research template. Coldmachine^Talk 22:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Organization

I just moved a paragraph from the lead into the body of the article under the heading "Origins". The lead isn't really supposed to introduce any material that can't be found in the main body. It is supposed to summarize what is already in the article.

On the same subject of organization, the organization of this article puzzles me. I'm a fan of the book and I'd like to help with this article, but I've got a lot of questions first. Why does this article have two synopsis sections? This makes no sense to me. It seems like this article has too much synopsis and not enough analysis. Are we running into problems gathering analysis? I've got some experience in the field and a lot of resources, so I could help, but I don't really want to start a war trying to fix the synopsis. Wrad (talk) 23:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I have added an "Analysis" section which I intend to expand. It might be a little rough getting started, though, so suggestions and copyedits are welcome. Wrad (talk) 00:25, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

We need to shrink the plot synopsis to 900 words at the most. There's just no way around it. If we want to move some of the plot into character and setting analysis, so be it, but we shouldn't have such huge plot sections on wikipedia. Looking through the history of this talk page I see a very large group of editors who have said exactly what I'm saying now. It's time to get it done. Wrad (talk) 01:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Haven't read it all in detail, but on first glance I'm impressed with the scope if this new information and its sources. Thanks for the add and the reorg! — TAnthony^Talk 02:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm cooking up a themes section now from some books I've found. I'm most concerned about the plot summaries though. I envision an article with a much shorter, single plot section, along with some setting and character analysis. I don't know where to start on this though. Experience tells me that plot sections can become battle fronts. Should we start a draft on a subpage? Wrad (talk) 02:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a plan! Also, for what it's worth, I think extensive thematic analysis of literary material should be given a separate article as is the case with The Lord of the Rings. It reduces the risk for tarring the main article with WP:OR. Coldmachine^Talk 08:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree about a separate article. In my experience, if you keep the themes section strictly well-referenced, OR isn't a problem. I've found this to be the case with Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet, both of which had problem with OR before we added sourced sections. I may be wrong, but I think we should at least try to have a sourced themes section in the article before splitting it to another article. Wrad (talk) 16:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Not Synthesis

I'd encourage anyone with fears of WP:synthesis in the Analysis section to read my sources directly. They will find that there is no synthesis in what I added. I am making absolutely no claims not made in the sources. Period. This includes all of the allusions to the book. All allusions to the book used to support the statements in the Analysis section are also found in the sources I used. Again, please check the sources yourself. It is not synthesis and I challenge anyone to show me otherwise from the sources I use. Wrad (talk) 16:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Dune (2009 Peter Berg Movie)

Why is this redirecting to the novel? Why doesn't it have its own page, as the miniseries does?Drhamad (talk) 19:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I took a look through the revision history of the redirect article, and it looks as if it only had one source to back up the claim (as much as we all know it to be true). So, at the moment the article can't stand alone since it's covered by WP:NFF. If there are reliable sources which can be added, which indicate that shooting is underway then the article could stand on its own. So, I have to agree with the current status for now. Coldmachine^Talk 22:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The movie has been pushed back to at least 2010 (possibly due to the writer's strike, but couldn't find that out). Another main reason why the article shouldn't exist until the movie is done basic shooting at the very least. 76.116.109.221 (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Notability

moved from Talk:Dune (2009 film)

Ah, I didn't realize that one of the notability guidelines for future films was that it had to begin shooting before it is allowed to be included into wikipedia. Saket (talk) 08:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

And as it further says: Additionally, films that have already begun shooting, but have not yet been publicly released (theatres or video), should not have their own articles, unless the production itself is notable per notability guidelines. -- ALLSTARecho 08:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

True, I'd also point out that a cursory glance at some of the later films coming out in the Upcoming Films category have articles, with multiple mainstream media sources, despite the fact that they have not started shooting yet. This is partly why I was/am confused about the notability guideline requirement that upcoming films need to have started shooting. Doesn't seem consistently applied. Saket (talk) 12:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you're right. It's not consistently applied. -- ALLSTARecho 21:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

These rules seem pretty strange to me. Rumors aren't fact, but it is fact that rumors are spreading, which in my opinion we should be informed about on wikipedia, even if it would just be to inform people it's just rumors so far and that nothing has been confirmed yet. I had to go back to the redirect page and check out its history in order to find this information. That doesn't seem the right way to find your information on wikipedia! CheesePlease NL (talk) 10:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Refer to WP:NFF. ALLSTARecho 10:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

So the movie cannot have an article of its own according to wikipedia rules. Fine. But why is there no information about it in this article then? Why was everything deleted? Please update this article with the information that was in the deleted article. Once shooting starts, the content can be copied into the film's own article...84.135.146.108 (talk) 00:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

For future use, the info and sources can be taken from this edit before article was redirected. However, I am still hesitant for it to be mentioned in the article just because it is so nebulous; if there is no script, no pre-production and just a deal with Berg, we all know how directors can change and projects can go away. Even the release year is in question, because if, as the source says, shooting starts in 2009, it probably wouldn't be released until 2010. It really is too much of a tidbit to be worth noting at this point. — TAnthony^Talk 01:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, there has been no official announcement of a deal having been reached from the HLP. According to the last thing on the subject I've read from Byron Merritt (admin on the Dune Novels website BBS, grandson of Frank Herbert and HLP member), negotiations are still on-going. (As he put it, the lawyers still have it.) And that was in response to news of the MTV (blog?) post about Berg being chosen as director.

Considering how hard it is to keep in any mention of the controversy over the new books, the fact that there is buzz about a possible movie is not worth bothering with yet. --SandChigger (talk) 04:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Sources

I still think it's too soon to start writing about the Berg film in this or its own article, but I wanted to list any sources that appear as they may be of use later:

• ""Berg to direct Dune for Paramount."". Variety.com. 2008-03-17. Retrieved 2008-04-03.
• ""New Dune Film from Paramount."". DuneNovels.com. 2008-03-18. Retrieved 2008-04-03.
• HT Syndication. "Peter Berg to direct Dune adaptation." Hindustan Times. 18 March 2008.

Thanks. — TAnthony^Talk 14:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, the Berg film is actually mentioned in the article again, so I am adding these additional sources but leaving them listed here as well in case the article is edited further. — TAnthony^Talk 04:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

GA review

Okay, my blue-eyed friends, I'll be reviewing this article for GA. I've read the book and know a bit about science fiction literature, so hopefully my review won't be useless. My goal will be to have a review ready by tomorrow evening. If there's anything extraordinary behind the article that I should know before reviewing, now is your chance. --JayHenry (talk) 03:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry guys, I'm a bad reviewer. This will have to wait another day. Thanks for your patience (if you have it). --JayHenry (talk) 03:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry only for the delay. My previous edit probably left the impression that I was failing the article, and I don't want to leave that edit summary in your watchlists and give you an undeserved scare! --JayHenry (talk) 03:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Environmentalism & Ecology

"After the publication of Silent Spring by Rachel Carson in 1962, science fiction writers were confronted with the problem of biological-human relations. Dune responded in 1965..." This comment suggests that Dune was written in response to Silent Spring. However, as noted on Frank Herbert's page, "Herbert began researching Dune in 1959..." Therefore, the section relating Dune to Silent Spring should be removed or rewritten. While Silent Spring may have been a later influence (which would require something from Herbert himself), it did not provoke the writing of the novel. Biccat (talk) 14:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. He can begin researching in 1959, eventually read Silent Spring in 1962, and finally finish the book in 1965. No contradiction whatsoever. Wrad (talk) 20:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Some GA nom concerns

I've just taken a quick look at the article and have a couple concerns. One is that the material in Lead is not fully supported in the body of the article. Which, in turn, raises the question of whether the article is complete enough for the article to be GA. For example, the Lead mentions that "Dune is popularly considered one of the greatest science fiction novels of all time, is frequently cited as the best-selling science fiction novel in history, and was the first bestselling hardcover science fiction novel ever." This statement is nicely cited, but there is no further treatment of the topic in the article. This is not just a concern about WP:LEAD, but why is an article about such a popular book lacking a section about its "Reception", both popular and critical? Similarly, its Nebula and Hugo Awards are mentioned in the Lead, but there's no further context provided below it. There are also statements like, "In a story that explores the complex and multilayered...." that don't seem to be supported in the article.

Also, per novel style guidelines, the "Synopsis" section should be renamed to "Plot introduction" and "Plot summary". The same for "Analysis" (which is an interesting read): change this to "Major themes"; as it stands, it hints at it being an editor's analysis rather than a presentation of themes identified by literary critics.

Maybe someone can jump on this quickly – I'll return as soon as I can and help. I'd think that lack of a Reception section will hinder a pass on this.
Jim Dunning | talk 22:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Synopsis and Analysis strike me as better headings than the novel guidelines ask for. The section isn't outlining themes. It's covering analysis. (Let's remember that guidelines can be overruled if the article would be better if it didn't follow them. This is the case with this article, in my opinion.) The "complex and multilayered" bit seems to be covered in the analysis section, which discusses politics and ecology, among other things. I'll fix the lead issue up a bit on this, though. Let me emphasize that everything in the analysis section is the work of literary critics, not wikipedia editors. Absolutely everything. Check the sources if you doubt it.

I really haven't been able to find anything about reception for all my searching. I'll try again, but if it isn't there, I don't see how it can be required for GA. Wrad (talk) 23:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I just found a review. So that should be taken care of shortly. Wrad (talk) 23:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't think I'm questioning the sources of the themes (or analyses): I'm not. I'm just pointing out areas that would be concerns of mine if I was doing the GA review. And you're right, Guidelines are not gospel, but there have been some significant discussions on "synopsis" vs. "plot summary" with the consensus landing on "plot summary". As for Reception, the WP article about a novel as popular and as well analyzed as Dune would be lacking if its critical reception is not covered. I don't know if I can say it's required, but the Guidelines do say, "Understanding the novel's position in its own society and in later literary and cultural traditions is crucial" (italics mine). There is no lack for reviews, for it's initial publication and for later printings and editions. It would be good if a number of viewpoints could be included. Here are some places to start with—

• Juan A. Prieto-Pablos, "The Ambivalent Hero of Contemporary Fantasy and Science Fiction," in Extrapolation, Vol. 32, No. 1, Spring, 1991, pp. 64-80.
• Jack Hand, "The Traditionalism of Women's Roles in Frank Herbert's Dune," in Extrapolation, Vol. 26, No. 1, Spring, 1985, pp. 24-8.
• Willis E. McNelly, "In Memoriam: Frank Herbert, 1920-1986," in Extrapolation, Vol. 27, No. 4, Winter, 1986, pp. 352-55.
• Leonard M. Scigaj, "Prana and the Presbyterian Fixation: Ecology and Technology in Frank Herbert's Dune Tetralogy," in Extrapolation, Vol. 24, No. 4, Winter, 1983, pp. 340-55.
• David M. Miller, in his Frank Herbert, Starmont House, 1980, 70 p.
• O'Reilly, Timothy. "From Concept to Fable: The Evolution of Frank Herbert's Dune." In Critical Encounters: Writers and Themes in Science Fiction, edited by Dick Riley, pp. 41-55. New York: Frederick Ungar, 1978. Contends that Dune is Herbert's critique of contemporary society.

I'll start checking them out and see what else I can find.
Jim Dunning | talk 23:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm just glad we're finding something. This novel is more modern than what I usually do, so it was hard to know where to look. Wrad (talk) 23:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Some more reviews:

• NYT ACROSS THE UNIVERSE; Dune Babies
• NYT Herbert Obit
• NYT THE SANDWORM SAGA
• NYT Books Of The Times

Also, I'd look at reviews of the sequels, since they usually include some commentary on the first installment.
Jim Dunning | talk 00:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

• Science Fiction Studies had an article on the novel: History and Historical Effect in Frank Herbert’s Dune Also, [5] if you want to stretch. --maclean 00:07, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrad, would you like some time to work to add these sources? I think they would definitely benefit the article, and so I'm happy to wait to do a full review after you've had some time to work on it. (I don't mind leaving an article on hold longer than the guidelines suggest).

I have some questions regardless. Does the article actually use the material in the bibliography section? Seems like they might provide useful context?

Is it necessary to mention both awards twice in the first paragraph of the lead?

The synopsis section could benefit from reviewing it and pretending you haven't read the book and don't know what any of the terms mean. Will someone unfamiliar know what "the Padishah Emperor" means, for example. These sections are good from the perspective of someone who's read the book, but perhaps another pass imagining you've not read the book will help?

I do think a Reception section is needed, and I'm not sure the current source is adequate or even reliable. Articles that discuss the awards or best-selling status will provide some information here. The quality of this source is sort of a striking contrast to the scholarly job that was done on the analysis section. --JayHenry (talk) 04:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you read the novel? If you have, could you find someone who hasn't and have them review the synopsis. I've really done the best I could and think a newbie would be the best thing at this stage. As for reception, I thought that scholarly reception was "analysis" and the masses were what we regularly call, "reception". Reception answers the question "what did casual readers think of this book? Did they like it? What did they like/not like? How well did it sell?" Scholars analyze the book. I believe that most of the links provided above are analysis, and not reception material at all, though I intend to look into all of them. The journal they're coming from even says that it prints analytic material. Wrad (talk) 04:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... agree fresh eyes may be best. Yeah, I've read it. maclean who just popped in above has done good work on some sci-fi works like the novel Pattern Recognition and might be able to help here. User:Skomorokh is also an editor who has done good work with sci-fi topics and could help. Regarding your latter point, I'd be surprised if neither scholars nor journalists discuss the book's popular reception, sales, awards, and influence on the rest of the genre, but I've not had the chance to research the topic myself.

I hope my comments don't seem like I'm really negative or something. I think it's already well done and am just offtering some suggestions for areas of further improvement (asymptotically toward perfection!) that aren't necessarily related to the GA criteria. --JayHenry

With respect to the "Reception" vs. "Analysis" content, regardless of who is writing the book review, I have been keeping all the opinionated points in the "Reception", and keeping the "Analysis" more descriptive (merely describing a theme or motif but not saying whether it is effective or not). It is a function of the jobs, for the book reviewer to say whether the book is worth the time, and the academic to analyze it. Academics usually write more enlighten and complete analytical descriptions, but occasionally the average magazine/newspaper reviewer will drop something profound. Also, I read this book a couple years ago. --maclean 05:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

"Reception" can cover critical reviews, observations from literary critics/scholars about reader and reviewer response (as well as their assessments on the quality and success of the work), awards, and sales. It isn't limited to book reviews in a magazine or newspaper. In fact, some Reception sections expand to include "Literary Significance." I've referenced scholarly articles above since they often include citations to book reviews written at the time of original publication, which may help editors track them down. Also, reviews of sequels often refer to older reviews or include commentary on the initial installment.
Jim Dunning | talk 18:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Per Jim's request I've placed the article on hold to allow some time for work on reception and literary significance. No pressure and please don't be discouraged. These are key sections to add, but it should not be interpreted as any slight against the work done so far! --JayHenry (talk) 06:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't seem to have access to Extrapolation. Wrad (talk) 20:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

How goes process on the GA nomination and review? dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 08:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I was asked to put the nomination on hold so that editors could work to add key information. While I'm happy to wait we can't really keep this on the GAN page indefinitely. Unless there's some indication that work is going to occur imminently, I don't see how I'd be able to pass the article this go round. Would appreciate hearing the thoughts of the editors working on this article whether or not the request is fair. --JayHenry (talk) 00:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. I haven't had time available to work on this. I think the GAN was premature, so I understand if the result at this point is to not list (and would concur). However, I would like to see the article improve since the novel is an important one; consequently, irrelevant of the GAN status I will work on the article this weekend.
Jim Dunning | talk 01:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've removed it for now. The concern from WP:WIAGA remains "broad in its coverage". Particularly the section on Reception is particularly thin when it's a key element to this novel. Jim has suggested a number of sources that could be used. Currently (and curiously) as far as I can tell, the article neglects to actually use the sources in the Bibliography. These too would likely contain some of the missing information. Best of luck with this article. I hope to even see it at FA some day. --JayHenry (talk) 01:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Literapedia as an External Link?

I added an external link earlier today to Literapedia, a site devoted to short character and chapter summaries of classic literature. The argument presented for removing this link was that "another wiki is not a good source." While I recognize that as a generalization, this is true, Literapedia is a scholarly source, limited in scope, and well-edited.

I present my link again to you, the denizens of Wikipedia, to pass judgment: Dune at Literapedia

As I post, the first six chapter summaries are missing. They will be complete sometime in the next three hours. Docmcconl (talk) 00:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC) Update: Summary is complete. Docmcconl (talk) 01:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate as an actual source/reference, but I don't see any harm in it being an external link as a potential point of interest for those wanting more plot detail, etc. — TAnthony^Talk

I agree with Staecker's edit here. According to WP:EL links normally to be avoided include: "Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors." The wiki itself acknowledges that it is an experiment by an "English literature teacher and his students". I don't believe this is an appropriate link to provide. Coldmachine^Talk 07:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

However, Literapedia is not an open wiki. If you try to edit it, you will notice that the pages are locked. The English literature teacher approves every application for membership to ensure that only his students may add or delete content. Docmcconl (talk) 23:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Then it can't have "a substantial number of editors" in that case, so it still fails to satisfy WP:EL. Coldmachine^Talk 09:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Opposed. Doesn't qualify as a source. Moving on.... --SandChigger (talk) 03:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I would like to reopen the discussion in light of several other articles that cite Literapedia, including To the Lighthouse, Cry, The Beloved Country, and The Things They Carried, among many others. A Wikipedia search for the term "Literapedia" brings up seventeen hits, all of them classic literature. This looks legitimate to me. --Docmcconl (talk) 13:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems like a nice classroom project, but since the contributors do not qualify as reliable sources on their own merit, the material itself would have to be cited and sourced. It is not, and there is no statement on the website's verification process. Therefore, there is no way to verify the accuracy of the information. Providing a link to the site would be misleading. And just because similar links appear elsewhere, doesn't automatically justify including it here. Oppose
Jim Dunning | talk 14:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

While consensus can change, I don't believe it has on this issue. I am also still opposed to inclusion of this link. Coldmachine^Talk 15:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

In addition; I have some concerns about a possible conflict of interest which may exist with this user and the promotion of this website across several articles: a cursory look at the contribution history gives cause for concern. I will advise via user's talk page providing links to the appropriate policies. Coldmachine^Talk 15:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Cultural influence and Shai Hulud

I did want to clarify that I phrased my edit summary wrong when I removed the mention of the band Shai Hulud; I was questioned about it on my talk page but should have commented here as well. In any case, the band itself is notable, but their only connection to Dune is that they named themselves after a term from the novel — that is not influence, that is trivia. The band is not notable within the context of this article, and wouldn't be (in my opinion) in the Sandworm article either. The mention of the band, and other such trivia, have been deleted a few times in the past. — TAnthony^Talk 16:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Point taken. But doesn't that mean there's a bigger call to make here? If the name of Shai Hulud is not a direct link to Dune - and the term itself was coined in the novel - then why mention any such connection to the book by any artist in any medium? Apologies if I'm jumping into a discussion that's already done and dusted. Tanzeelat (talk) 07:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

You are definitely correct, and similar trivial references have been removed from both the Dune (novel) and Dune (film) articles. The ones that remain are a bit "meatier" and (I think) show a more substantial and direct influence, with sources. Some of it still borders on trivia but ... — TAnthony^Talk 15:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The list of songs which sample the Dune film seems endless and kind of irks me, LOL, but since they contain material from the film I guess they are technically some form of derivative work, right?? — TAnthony^Talk 15:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the answer is to hive it off into its own article, where the triviality can be labelled... except that might be considered OR... Tanzeelat (talk) 12:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe that was done when there was a longer list, which has since been deleted. It doesn't seem quite worth it at this point. — TAnthony^Talk 14:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Cultural influence of dune..

is this addition ok? i am not sure if it is appropriate or not? feel free to tell me if it isnt. cheers.Jim_Sniper (talk) 17:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the sources; I've cleaned the entry up a bit, but I think it works. — TAnthony^Talk 19:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

cool yeh its great! Jim_Sniper (talk) 18:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

How exactly does this section illuminate anything about the novel at all? All it does is smuggle in some things about some forgettable artists. I can certainly understand articles from those pages linking to this one, but how does it tell anyone anything about Herbert's "Dune"? National Lampoon's "Doon" doesn't do anything of the sort nor do some song lyrics. These kind of "cultural influence" or "trivia" sections are just excuses to get work of some lesser luminary riding on the coattails of something more important. Also technically it all qualifies as "original research" unless you can find a reasonable secondary source that bothers to make the comparison. And the fact that you can't imagine anyone would means that it probably doesn't belong in something aspiring to be an "encyclopedia".Ekwos (talk) 20:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that in general there are too many "in popular culture" sections in articles that merely list every time the topic in question is mentioned; the fact that Brad Pitt named his dog "Arrakis" wouldn't be notable (and at one point, there was literally a list of items here and in the film article on par with that). But the influence of a work on others can certainly be notable. Dune has arguably influenced many other sci-fi novels, universes and games, and this has definitely been documented (you will notice the lead pgh of the "Cultural influence" section is a basic overview for the exact reason that no one has yet scoured the Touponce book and other sources for citations). I've never been crazy about the song influences here, and yet the fact that a novel inspired a metal song by such a notable band does speak to the novel's status as an influential classic and all that. Similarly, not a huge amount of novels inspire parody novels or companion books either. I can see trimming some of the music deemed not worthy to minimize the impression of OR, but I feel like the rest serves a purpose. It's not an overpowering amount of material at this point. And in my comment here to which you refer above, I was actually suggesting that some of these comparisons have surely been made, it's just that no one has taken the time to find them. — TAnthony^Talk 23:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I took a closer look at the sources given in this section and too many of them amount to fan sites somewhere else on the web. I don't think that sort of thing was intended for Wikipedia as a legitimate source, as it just the same sort of original research that Wikipedia is trying to eliminate. I think if one is going to give pop cultural references the source should be more than fan-driven web flotsam. I think anything that can't be traced to a more substantial source should be trimmed at least.Ekwos (talk) 19:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

If you feel the section or particular entries are inappropriate or OR, tag them and move on. If they're not fixed in a timely manner, delete them.

And why the hell is this discussion here and not at the bottom of the page? If you're going to be AR about one rule, do so about all of them. --SandChigger (talk) 03:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Influence of service in Vietnam/Pakistan? (Origin)

According to the biography of Frank Herbert, he worked as a social/ecological consultant in Vietnam and Pakistan in 1972.

He first published Dune in Analog in 1963.

In the Origins section of this article on Dune, his experience in 1972 influenced the book he finished writing several years before that experience.

...just...eh? Is this from a reliable source, and if so, does it actually say something to this effect?

http://www.dunenovels.com/news/genesis.html may provide a better (primary) source for this section, if it hasn't already...not certain I have time to edit myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalai Eljahn (talk • contribs) 07:59, February 5, 2009

Thanks for the catch, that was clearly the work of an eager editor trying to make a connection; it is of course more likely that Herbert was used as a consultant because of the expertise gained in researching and writing the novel. Anyway, I cut the paragraph but kept the potentially useful links under "External links." Thanks again! — TAnthony^Talk 17:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Fear is the mind killer.

Who said that? Joetmml (talk) 06:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The Litany against fear is used by a few characters during the series, but I believe Paul is the first to say the phrase in the novel when he's tested with the gom jabbar.— TAnthony^Talk 07:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Universe != Galaxy

I think I fairly mucked up reverting those revisions. Sorry! --SandChigger (talk) 08:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

According to KJA and BH universe and galaxy are one and the same, I think you're wrong SC! (wink) ATOE (talk) 15:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Those authors may use the terms interchangably, but they are not the same thing. And this article is about Frank's book anyway. — TAnthony^Talk 15:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL, OK, think I missed that wink the first time ;) — TAnthony^Talk 15:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Who's the dim light in the firmament that keeps changing "galaxy" to "universe"? It's not obvious that more than one galaxy is involved until Leto II states in God Emperor that his empire is "multi-galactic". --SandChigger (talk) 04:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't care much, but since you seem so sure of yourself I'll ask: is there anything that suggests that only one galaxy is involved? The use of the term "known universe" suggests that Shaddam's empire is not confined to a single galaxy, doesn't it? Staecker (talk) 12:31, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to be certain. Frank Herbert used the word so rarely. Brian Herbert frequently speaks of 'the galaxy', as in, '[Norma Cenva]'s discovery has bound together the whole galaxy!', and Frank does once or twice (' "It's a penal colony," the Baron said. "The worst riff-raff in the galaxy are sent to Salusa Secundus. What else do we need to know?"'), but on the other hand he explicitly says the Navigators routinely travel from galaxy to galaxy ("Miles Teg knew his history well by then. Guild Navigators no longer were the only ones who could thread a ship through the folds of space -- in this galaxy one instant, in a faraway galaxy the very next heartbeat."). So, if we ignore the stupid Dastardly Duo, we should probably accept the empire being multi-galactic. --Gwern (contribs) 13:45 5 October 2008 (GMT)

Actually, FH used the word "universe" 427 times in his six Dune books (Dune 47; DM 66; CoD 122; GEoD 57; HoD 79; CH:D 56). "Galaxy" appears only three times (Dune 1; HoD 2), all quoted by Gwern above. Many of the uses of "universe" are obviously not intended literally.

It's important to note the time period: Teg lived after Leto, so he could speak/think in terms of "galaxy to galaxy". Why assume that more than one galaxy was involved before Leto? Even an Imperium of a million planets could exist easily in just one part of the Milky Way.

My beef with this is it's sloppy usage, typical of the fuzzy thinking typical of the fans of the new crap. --SandChigger (talk) 04:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that it's worth discussing, but still I find myself discussing... If nobody ever says (or implies) that the empire is confined to a single galaxy, then why should we think that it is? If anything, "universe" is the more general term, and of course it would never be wrong to say that the empire is confined to a single universe. It's not sloppy usage unless we are sloppy about it. Staecker (talk) 14:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Do we need to use either term here at all? If we can't agree on one or the other maybe it should just be something like "throughout space" or some better worded version thereof? ATOE (talk) 21:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Works for me. But seriously, whatever. Just remember to turn out the rest of the lights when you're done. --SandChigger (talk) 09:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey, don't look at me, I think it should be galaxy, FH pretty clearly only references stars in the Milky way. Just making a suggesting you grumpy bug! ATOE (talk) 18:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Grumble, grumble, grump! Maybe not really aimed at you? I would think someone who deals in maths should be able to do the math and conclude that expansion within only one galaxy makes more sense, even with space-folding for ten thousand years, than something involving multiple galaxies or "the universe". --SandChigger (talk) 15:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to note that speaking of 'the universe' is incorrect; the Scattering takes place over multiple universes. "No Ixian machine can do what we, the descendants of Duncan Idaho and Siona, have done. How many universes have we populated? None can guess. No one person will ever know." "Think of the uncounted genes out there! Think of the potential talents floating free in universes where they might be lost forever!" "Waff fought to conceal the turmoil these words created. "Infinite universes, infinite time -- anything may happen," he said." "He spoke sadly. The no-ships had, indeed, seeded those other universes with rot." " "There is time to complete our bargain. God alone in His infinite mercy has given us infinite universes where anything may happen."" --Gwern (contribs) 19:12 11 October 2008 (GMT)

All of which are character PoV and speculation, no? Any quotes from the narrator? --SandChigger (talk) 00:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Er.. no. None of them are presented as speculation, and the relevant characters are people like Waff and Odrade - incredibly smart and knowledgeable heads of ancient wise & puissant organizations that have both studied the Scattering and no-ships in great detail; neither speaks in the same kind of voice. The burden is on anyone like you who wants to dismiss multiple independent non-metaphorical statements as not being simple fact. --Gwern (contribs) 16:57 15 October 2008 (GMT)

Of course the Hacks don't dismiss the idea of multiple universes. They had to have some place for Goddess Norma (the original Spice Girl!) to fly around in. --SandChigger (talk) 00:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you referring to me? I deal in maths. Since I deal in maths, I know that very little involving space-folding "makes sense" in the context of actual physics. If these guys can fold space and go wherever they want, why should they stick to one galaxy? Do you know some equations governing the spice consumption and mental effort required to fold space as a function of the distances involved? Herbert rightly avoided addressing these questions because he knew that silly sci-fi technical mumbo jumbo has no place in Dune books (are you listening Brian?).

We all agree that the discussion is a bit silly, and I don't care if the article says galaxy or universe or something else- I only joined the conversation because you were being so uncivil about it (here and in your edit summaries), and wanted to know if you had a good reason. I won't clog this talk page any more about that-- let's just try to improve the article. Staecker (talk) 16:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I've been watching people change it back and forth for a while now (Dune universe <-> Duniverse is another example) and grew tired of the silliness. Herbert didn't mention the Imperium/human space as having spread to more than one galaxy until the passage in GEoD, even though, as you point out, it's a logical possibility given space-folding. It's entirely possible that it hadn't occurred to him until he wrote about it; who knows? But since he doesn't mention it, I see no textual evidence for assuming it until then. The passage where "multigalactic" occurs is part of an excerpt from Leto's "Hidden Journals", the ones hidden in the Dar-es-Balat no-chamber. At the beginning of the excerpt, Leto states that he is three thousand years old, so this is near the end of his reign, when his empire would have been at its greatest extent. (About two million worlds according to a calculation I did a while back. Remember the Fish Speaker ritual Duncan observes with Leto? How many women can you fit into a plaza over a square kilometer in area?) --SandChigger (talk) 00:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Making the distinction between "universe" or "galaxy" is important as it establishes the setting of the story as well as the scope of story elements. Would it be right or wrong to set The Story of World War Two in only Germany? 173.69.177.66 (talk) 05:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Reception

So the "reception" section is basically a list of blurbs from the back of the book (literally—the Clarke and Heinlein ones are on the back of my copy, and the other "Amazon.com" sourced ones are similar). This is really not very critical or actually illustrative of its reception. Perhaps someone could actually do a little work and track down how it was received at the time, both within the sci-fi community and outside of it, and how it is regarded today? Surely we cannot use blurbs, though—they are known to be not reliable in the slightest, and lack context. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Los Angeles Times

• Frank Herbert's 'Dune' holds timely - and timeless - appeal

Reference for use. Erik (talk | contribs) 21:00, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Beat you to it. --Gwern (contribs) 21:38 20 April 2010 (GMT)

Hah! Didn't see that. :) Erik (talk | contribs) 21:42, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

inspired a song???

Dune inspired many songs, not only one. 81.182.236.78 (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Possible error in stating when it was that Duncan died.

Half way down the 3rd paragraph of Plot it says "and Duncan Idaho is killed defending Paul and Jessica." but at the end of that paragraph it says "Paul and Jessica, aided variously by Duncan..." Is that an error, or should the first quote be moved down into the second quote? Cnash11 (talk) 15:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

If I remember right, it isn't stated anywhere in the first book that Duncan Idaho died. He is bloody but still fighting, when the door closes on him and the protagonists never see him die, only assume (most probably rightly). 81.182.236.78 (talk) 21:42, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

'...the red blossom of death in his hair'

'Idaho was with us in the vision, he remembered. But now Idaho is dead.'

'And it came to Jessica that Paul had been trained in prana and bindu, the nerve and the fiber--that he had been taught fighting in a deadly school, his teachers men like Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck, men who were legends in their own lifetimes'

'"What of Duncan Idaho, m'Lord?" Gurney asked. "He's dead -- buying us a bit of time to escape."'

--Gwern (contribs) 17:44 22 June 2010 (GMT)

Chilton Books

Little known? I have known about Chilton books for as far back as I can remember. I would call that verbage questionable. 75.71.200.117 (talk) 16:58, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Everything is well-known to someone. Little known is pretty much the phrasing used in, IIRC, The Road To Dune excerpting of letters; and after looking at the Chilton article, it doesn't seem unfair to me. --Gwern (contribs) 21:52 21 November 2010 (GMT)

re: cultural influence edit

Junundu worms and their Queen in the MMORPG Guild Wars: Nightfall are modelled on the behaviour of sandworms.

regarding this edit, it's only fitting that a novel based on allusions to other subjects should include a reference to a game that is based primarily on allusions to other pop culture references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.250.81.218 (talk) 02:06, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Please see WP:TRIVIA. Every minor reference in other works shouldn't be mentioned (especially when the allusion is being made by something which is primaryly allusions). If this is a very important reference it should be backed up by reliable third party sources which discuss Guild Wars use of Dune references. --Daniel 02:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

argh fine, you guys have so many rules, my apologies, but i was thinking, people who appreciate literature heavy on allusions/refs might enjoy something else heavy on them as well. you can learn a lot from GW about dif cultures, just as you can by gleaning the stuff from dune, but your decision stands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.250.81.218 (talk) 03:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Plot section

Here's how we fixed the plot section for the Hamlet article. This is the synopsis section as it stands in the first section. I think we should work to have it cover the novel as well as we can in under 900 words without relying on the second synopsis section. Feel free to edit anything within the pink and leave comments or suggestions. I'm thinking that a big help for this will be a preceding settings section describing the world in which the novel takes place as succinctly as possible. That should save a lot of space in the synopsis section. Wrad (talk) 19:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I've copied the old setting section here so we can rewrite it as a section to precede the synopsis section so that when people read the synopsis they have a basic idea of the general situation at the beginning of the novel. Again, feel free to edit and comment. Be bold! and all that stuff. Wrad (talk) 19:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Synopsis

Setting

451 words

Thousands of years in the future, the human race has scattered throughout the galaxy, populating multiple planets ruled by aristocratic Houses who themselves answer to Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV. The CHOAM corporation is the major underpinning of the Imperial economy, with shares and directorships determining each House's income and financial leverage. Key is the control of the planet Arrakis, the only source of the valuable spice melange, which gives those who ingest it extended life and prescient awareness. Melange is crucial as it enables space travel, which in turn is monopolized by the Spacing Guild; its Navigators use the spice to to safely plot a course for the Guild's Heighliner ships via prescience using "foldspace" technology, which allows instantaneous travel to anywhere in the galaxy.

The spice is also crucial to the powerful matriarchal order called the Bene Gesserit. The secretive Bene Gesserit, often referred to as "witches," possess mental and physical powers developed through thousands of generations of controlled gene lines and years of physical and mental conditioning called prana-bindu training. When a Bene Gesserit acolyte becomes a full Reverend Mother by undergoing what the Lady Jessica calls "the Reverend Mother ordeal" (referred to as the spice agony later in the series), she gains access to her "ancestral memories" — the complete life experience of all her female ancestors back to the point of each life's conception. The agony is induced by taking a massive overdose of "awareness spectrum narcotics," though Jessica discovers that the equivalent Fremen ritual involves drinking the bile of a drowned sandworm, a melange-essence poison known as the Water of Life which the subject must change internally or die. Only women have ever been able to survive the transformation. However, the Bene Gesserit have a secret, centuries-old breeding program to create a prescient superhuman — and male equivalent to a Bene Gesserit — called the Kwisatz Haderach, who would not only be able to survive the spice agony, but whose "organic mental powers would bridge space and time."

The planet Arrakis itself is sparsely settled by a human population of native Fremen tribes. Leaders of the tribes come to be so by defeating the former leader in combat. The Fremen also have complex rituals and systems revolving around the value of water on their desert planet. They conserve the water distilled from their dead, consider spitting an honorable greeting, and value tears as the greatest gift one can give to the dead. Their culture also revolves around the spice, which is created as part of the life cycle of the giant sandworms who dominate the deserts. Lastly, missionary efforts of the Bene Gesserit have implanted a belief in a male Messiah who will one day come and transform Arrakis.

Plot

824 words

Emperor Shaddam IV has come to fear House Atreides, partly due to the growing popularity of Duke Leto Atreides and also because the talent of Leto's fighting force is beginning to rival the effectiveness of the Emperor's own dreaded Imperial Sardaukar guard. Shaddam decides that House Atreides must be destroyed, but cannot risk an overt attack on a single House, which would by necessity unite the other Houses against him. The Emperor instead uses the centuries-old feud between House Atreides and House Harkonnen to disguise his assault, enlisting the brilliant and power-hungry Baron Vladimir Harkonnen in his plan to trap and eliminate the Atreides. Shaddam forces Leto to accept the lucrative fief of the desert planet Arrakis, the only known source of the spice melange, previously controlled by the Harkonnens.

Complicating the political intrigue is the fact that the Duke's son Paul Atreides is an essential part of the Bene Gesserit's secret, centuries-old breeding program to create a superhuman called the Kwisatz Haderach. There are signs that Paul might actually be the Kwisatz Haderach, born one generation earlier than expected, though this remains in doubt.

The Atreides suspect foul play, and are able to thwart the initial Harkonnen traps and complications while simultaneously building trust with the local population of Fremen. Ultimately, however, the Atreides are unable to withstand a devastating Harkonnen attack, supported by Imperial Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnen troops and aided by a traitor within House Atreides itself — the Suk doctor Wellington Yueh. Captured, Duke Leto dies in a failed attempt to assassinate Baron Harkonnen; Paul and Jessica escape into the deep desert. With Jessica's Bene Gesserit abilities and Paul's developing skills, they manage to join a band of Fremen, ferocious fighters who ride the giant sandworms of Arrakis.

Paul and his mother quickly learn the ways of the Fremen, while teaching them the weirding way, or Bene Gesserit method of fighting. Jessica becomes a Reverend Mother, taking the concentrated spice while pregnant with her second child. Daughter Alia experiences all that her mother does from the spice, gaining prescience and wisdom before even being born. Years pass, and Paul increasingly recognizes the strength of the Fremen fighting force, and recognizes their potential to overtake even the Sardaukar and win back Arrakis. Living on the spice diet of the Fremen, Paul's prescience increases dramatically, enabling him to foresee future events and gaining him a religious respect from the Fremen, who regard him as their prophesied Messiah. As Paul grows in influence, he begins a jihad against Harkonnen rule of the planet under his new Fremen name, [Muad'Dib]].

Both the Emperor and the Baron Harkonnen show increasing interest in the fervor of religious fanaticism shown on Arrakis for this "Muad'Dib," not guessing that this leader is the presumed-dead Paul. Harkonnen plots to send his nephew and heir Feyd Rautha as a replacement for his more-ruthless other nephew Glossu Rabban — who is currently in charge of the planet — to gain the respect of the now-troublesome Fremen. Winning them over as a fighting force, he hopes, will give him enough power to overtake the Emperor himself. The Emperor, however, is highly suspicious of the Baron and sends spies to watch his movements.

On Arrakis, Paul is reunited with an old ally of the Atreides, Gurney Halleck. Completely loyal to the Atreides, Gurney is convinced that Jessica is the traitor who had caused the House's downfall. He nearly kills her, but for Paul's last-minute intervention. Disturbed by his lack of complete prescience and the near-loss of his mother, Paul decides to take the spice poison. After several days in a near-death state, Paul emerges as the Kwisatz Haderach. His powers are less random, and he is able to see past, present and future at will.

Alia is captured by Sardaukar and brought to the planet's capital Arrakeen, where the Baron Harkonnen is nervously attempting to thwart the Fremen jihad under the close watch of the Emperor. The Emperor is surprised at four-year-old Alia's defiance of his power and her confidence in her brother, whom she reveals to be Paul Atreides, still alive. At that moment, with the aid of a gigantic sandstorm, Paul and his army of Fremen attack the city. Alia kills the Baron Harkonnen with a poisoned needle during the confusion. Paul quickly overtakes the city's defenses and confronts the Emperor, threatening to destroy the spice and thereby effectively end space travel and cripple both the Imperial power and Bene Gesserit in one blow. Feyd Rautha challenges Paul to a knife-duel in a final attempt to stop his overthrow of power, but is defeated despite treachery. Realizing that Paul is capable of doing all he has threatened to do, the Emperor is forced to abdicate and promise his daughter Princess Irulan in marriage to Paul. Paul ascends the throne, his control of Arrakis and the spice establishing a new kind of power over the Empire which will change the face of the Known Universe.

Setting comments

I just trimmed it quite a bit. I think this section should focus on the importance of spice, the most crucial element in the novel. Mentats and machines aren't as crucial to a beginner's understanding of the basic plot of the novel, so I took those out. Wrad (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

So I just did a first pass at a copyedit/rewrite of the Setting above, basically consolidating redundancies and fixing links. There may be some ideas and phrasing lost from the article's current version worth re-incorporating, I'm going to check and compare at some point. — TAnthony^Talk 18:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Plot comments

I started a rewrite. Obviously it's still missing crucial elements such as Jessica's taking the poison, Alia, and the overthrow of Harkonnen rule on Arakkis. I'm also not sure about the spellings of some things, so feel free to fix those if you know them. Wrad (talk) 20:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I added some more and eagerly await comments. Wrad (talk) 02:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I like the layout for this revised plot synopsis. I haven't checked the content thoroughly, but it looks like a good start to me and I entirely agree with you that the current synopsis is too long - a revised version should be shorter, preferably. Coldmachine^Talk 16:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I did an initial copyedit/rewrite of the Plot section above as well, though I wouldn't say it is now perfect! I am assuming that this section should somewhat stand on its own from the Setting section, but I wasn't sure to what extent we need to repeat certain details, like the explanation of the Kwisatz Haderach, Arrakis as the sole source of spice, etc. I'm curious if the group thinks a casual reader will usually read both, or may skip ahead to Plot and then perhaps not fully understand some of what's going on. — TAnthony^Talk 18:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I think if we put both sections under a Synopsis heading we increase the chance of their reading both. I think trying to explain too much in the plot section comes at too high a cost, and we're just going to have to count on them to read the setting section. Wrad (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to put this draft into the article. It's not perfect, but it's better than we have now. We can continue making it better as we go. Wrad (talk) 04:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello. I noticed that there were no mention of Wanda, which figures prominently into Yueh's treachery. It also explains Yueh's decision to give Leto the poisoned tooth, and the subsequent death of De Vries. In addition, Alia's revelation of 'grandfather' is not covered. Also, I think there should be the inclusion of 'higher order mathematics' in the description of the Kwisatz Haderach. Paul Atreides spice-aided prescience is essentially derived through mathematical formulas that allows him to bridge time, similar to a Guild Navigator, but at a far superior level.

Finally, the following sentences are factually wrong. "After three weeks in a near-death state, Paul emerges with his powers refined and focused;" Paul was never close to death. His internal body chemistry was slowed down, thus lending an appearance of death.

"he is able to see past, present, and future at will." Not at will. He struggles constantly to see the future, (remember Irulan's 'valley and mountain' quote) and he never sees the past. He can, however, speak to his ancestral bloodlines from the past.

"Looking into space" He looked into the future and the-now, not space. "Paul also realizes the way to control spice production on Arrakis: saturating spice fields with the water of life would cause a chain reaction that would destroy all spice on the planet." Incorrect. Paul uses the threat of destroying the spice fields to control the Guild.

Thanks Misha Atreides (talk) 17:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Heroism

Tha part about the heroism in the novel (in my opinion) forgets to mention that Paul sees his actions not for the benefit of himself, revenge or even for the greater good of the Fremen but because all his other actions will only lead to one thing: Kralizec (sp?). He mentions this a lot of times and although he might be a hero (superficially seen) the way he acts as hero is by trying to save the future of mankind / known empire. His child also sees this "road" and actually doesn't stay from that "Golden" road but walks it. Both acts are off course acts of heroism but to say that Paul is a superhuman being that becomes a hero is a bit short sighted (again in my opinion off course). Paul would ultimately rather have died before ever being found by the Fremen, although the universe would've ended for know mankind without his interdiction...

We'd have to have a source for that analysis or it would be WP:OR Wrad (talk) 15:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Kralizec is mentioned several times in the series. Paul, and later on, Leto II, were actually preparing humanity for Kralizec. Paul lost his nerve after seeing the Golden Path, which was why he walked into the desert blind in an attempt to avoid his destiny/responsibility. Leto II however, accepted his fate and merged with the sandtrouts. His subsequent 3,500 year rule was explicitly to prepare humankind for Kralizec. At the risks of spoiling the series for future readers (SPOILER ALERT), the thinking machines, thought to be vanquished in the Butlerian Jihad, will return. Misha Atreides (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The world's best-selling science fiction novel

The article says "Dune is frequently cited as the world's best-selling science fiction novel". But from what I can see, both The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and Nineteen Eighty-Four have sold more copies: List of best-selling books.84.210.60.115 (talk) 19:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting ... obviously the statement in this article is attributed to a source, and even the Dune source in the article you note above (Encyc Britannica) says that Dune has sold "more than any other science-fiction book in history." I guess you could argue that 1984 is social SF and Hitchhikers is a parody? Regardless, the wording here says "frequently cited as" and that is certainly true.— TAnthony^Talk 00:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

When and how is it revelead that baron Vladimir Harkonnen is Pauls grandfather- "Paul, I am your grandfather" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.212.200.172 (talk) 22:46, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

No such incident took place. Paul, during their flight, senses heightened, made the revelation to Jessica. At the climatic scene, Alia revealed it to the Baron as well just before stabbing him.Misha Atreides (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew and Jewish influence

The articlw does not refer to Hebrew and Jewish imfluence such as "Mesiah", "Keizat Haderech", Bene Gesserit" etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.5.83 (talk) 07:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

You mean Jewish and Arabic, or Semitic. Not only is Kwisatz haderach a Wikipedia entry, but so is the actual Hebrew Kefitzat Haderech, as well as Iman, Mahdi, and others. A website suggests, "... Paul Atreides, who was proclaimed by his followers, the Fremen, to be the Mahdi. Paul's Fremen name, "Muad'Dib", means "teacher of adāb (manners and respect)" in Arabic, although within the novel it is a word in the Fremen language of Chakobsa, and is the name of a kind of desert mouse." Ncsr11 (talk) 16:59, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Language of Dune is 'Galach', not English

In chapter 4, the statement, "Then she said a good ruler has to learn his world's language, that it's different for every world. And I thought she meant they didn't speak Galach on Arrakis, but she said that wasn't it at all," is when Paul references that the language is not English, but a hybrid of an English-and-Slavic language (GALACH: offical language of the Imperium. Hybrid Inglo-Slavic with strong traces of cultural-specialization terms adopted during a long chain of human migrations).

Although the author relates the conversations in English, the apparent use is the intention for more Slavic words in which the reader would be confounded. Ncsr11 (talk) 15:47, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The Physics of Dune

Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, the Emperor's Truthsayer's pain-inflicting green metallic box used in the gom jabber test, is in part sound theory, considering the Active Denial System's operation at 95 GHz extremely high frequency waves, so long as the 3.2 mm waves could be projected from the insides of a 15 x 15 cm (150 mm) cube. "Pain by nerve induction," she said. "Can't go around maiming potential humans. There're those who'd give a pretty penny for the secret of this box, though." The ADS uses dielectric heating in the skin. The non-light within the black opening is within 'emerging technologies' not yet in existence. Ncsr11 (talk) 01:14, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

'Dielectric heating' in the skin is nothing like 'nerve induction', where Herbert was clearly thinking of direct electric manipulation of pain nerves. Come on... --Gwern (contribs) 16:48 25 March 2012 (GMT)

End result—'PAIN'. Ncsr11 (talk) 19:40, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

So anything ever invented that causes something unpleasant at a distance counts? Whatever. Talk pages are not a forum and are meant for discussing the article, and this is not about the article. --Gwern (contribs) 20:43 25 March 2012 (GMT)

What's your take on the article? Ncsr11 (talk) 01:08, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

"If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets ..."

In a strictly literary sense (no references to any film), when Gurney Halleck begins to operate the target dummy for Paul's training, he mumbles to himself, " "... If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets. ...", (he murmered.")

The passage associates to the Wikipedia entry, If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. Ncsr11 (talk) 01:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

"... I will bend like a reed in the wind ...", has probable relation with, The Oak and the Reed. Ncsr11 (talk) 17:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

14 hours Jodorowsky Project

"... in collaboration with Salvador Dali, Orson Welles, Gloria Swanson, David Carradine, Geraldine Chaplin, Alain Delon, Hervé Villechaize and Mick Jagger. The music would be composed by Pink Floyd, Magma, Henry Cow and Karlheinz Stockhausen ... ust as the storyboards, designs, and script were finished, the financial backing dried up. Frank Herbert travelled to Europe in 1976 to find that $2 million of the $9.5 million budget had already been spent in pre-production, and that Jodorowsky's script would result in a 14-hour movie ("It was the size of a phonebook)""

• [6]. Are there any further sources on this? 87.164.104.40 (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Spice and oil

How come there is nothing in this lengthy article about how Spice/Fremen/Arrakis is equivalent to oil/Arabs/Arabia? There is even a link down the bottom to a article about this topic. (Unless I missed it somewhere?) Afrotrance (talk) 14:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The article I believe to which you are referring is really about the Arabic influence on words and general concepts in the novel(s). The oil analogy is surely discussed somewhere reliable (The Touponce or O'Reilly books?) but as yet no one has come forward with anything.— TAnthony^Talk 15:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you're thinking of Dune Genesis, an essay by Frank Herbert, which includes: "Yes, there are analogs in Dune of today's events-corruption and bribery in the highest places, whole police forces lost to organized crime, regulatory agencies taken over by the people they are supposed to regulate. The scarce water of Dune is an exact analog of oil scarcity. CHOAM is OPEC." Staecker (talk) 01:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Spice. When the Duke risks his own safety to use his own ornithopter to pick up the three laborers, the worm consumes the factory and a full load of spice is lost. The disparity of wealth between the Atreides family and the Harkkonens is further delayed as the load was supposed to have been the initial revenue of the Duke's clan. Ncsr11 (talk) 23:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Subtance melange, "the spice," is a prescient form of actual cinnamin

"The spice," which is found only on the desert planet Arrakis, is alluded to by the author as not only appearing to resemble cinnamin (Cinnamomum cassia), which comes from a tropical tree bark, but is literally cinnamin in a highly potent narcotic form. Many subtances can appear in the natural world, as well as synthetically, at the same time. The excreted subtance on the desert floors of Arrakis may not come from a bark, but the author hypostulates the formula compound is cinnamomum cassia. Because it cannot be synthetically reproduced, it is conceivable that the chemical compound of the spice has an extra-dimensional aura attached to it——that being to the everyday——cinnamin. Ncsr11 (talk) 23:37, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Where does Herbert say it is literally cinnamon? In the books, Spice is actually manufactured in a sac under the ground called a pre-spice mass, where no plants can live, as part of the growth medium of the larval form of Shai-Hulud. When you say "it is conceivable" here, that's well and good, as long as this doesn't find its way into the actual article. Linuxgal (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

All-time Best Seller

In the biography Frank Herbert we call Dune the "best selling science fiction novel of all time" quoting SCI FI Channel 2003.[7]

That was ten years ago. Does anyone know whether and in what sense this was true? and remains true?

--P64 (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

'Language and linguistics' AfD

There's no Dune Wikiproject, so I guess the novel serves as a noticeboard: Language and linguistics in Frank Herbert's Dune is being AfDed if anyone cares. --Gwern (contribs) 16:18 29 April 2010 (GMT)

It redirected on 16 September 2010‎ to Dune (franchise).--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 17:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Where is the Criticism?

Almost every book wiki article I've found has touched on some of the negative reaction. It surprises me that this one doesn't have any! I'm guessing that doing so would give the article a more stable and neutral POV necessary for Good_article_criteria. 128.95.130.46 (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

 I actually created this section. Forgot to sign in. Airelor (talk) 22:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Videogame

Many years ago I played a Videogame named Dune and I remember it was really nice. It should be cited.--188.153.50.127 (talk) 16:10, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

See List of games based on Dune, which is linked in the cultural impact section of this article. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 16:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject

Has there ever been talk of a Wikiproject for Dune? --S.G.^(GH) _ping! 14:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Not as far as I can tell. @TAnthony: has done most of the consistent maintenance of these articles, and they all mostly fall under WP:Novels and WP:Science fiction. You are more than welcome to suggest a task force at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Novels. If you rally three or more active contributors beyond TAnthony and yourself who are interested in actively monitoring and contributing to those articles, I will gladly build the infrastructure for you guys to use the Novels assessment templates, and monitor the articles. But it requires 5-10 editing hours to set up basic elements of the task force, not including importance assessments, so its a silly investment of time unless people are going to use it, Sadads (talk) 14:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

It would contain 288 articles and about 200 files,, templates and categories per whats included in Category:Dune_universe plus, probably, a few biographies and stuff related to Frank_Herbert, other authors, and perhaps other works on Template:Frank Herbert. So probably all told, you could include about 600-700 items in that task force, Sadads (talk) 14:57, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

@SGGH:. Don't know if you saw this, Sadads (talk) 01:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I didn't actually, no. It's my favourite novel of all time so I do fancy the idea. I'll propose it at the appropriate place. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 10:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

@SGGH: Proposal looks good, make sure that you try soliciting people who may not watch the Novels project page. I would suggest looking for users recently active on Dune articles in the edit histories. The project is moderately active in managing the content, but I get the distinct impression that we don't have a lot of people watching the talk page, Sadads (talk) 14:23, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Paul and Chani's son

I haven't read the novel, but it says in the plot section of the article that "Paul takes a Fremen lover, Chani, with whom he fathers a son." However, it says in the plot summary for Dune Messiah that Chani has been unable to produce an heir for Paul. I know she does eventually (Leto II) but which plot summary is correct? 88.104.18.223 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Paul and Chani have a son named Leto who is killed near the end of the novel (I've restored the bit about his death to the plot summary). In Messiah they have Leto II and Ghanima.— TAnthony^Talk 23:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Now it all makes sense. 88.104.18.223 (talk) 00:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It is a bit peculiar in that both of their male offspring are called Leto, yet only one (the latter) is referenced as Leto II (though presumably the "II" denotes that he follows from the line of his grandfather, and is not a reference Paul's earlier (and ill-fated) child). We should take care that these points are addressed in the plot summary. Snow talk 14:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Pop culture references/ cultural impact

Peter the Puppy in the Earthworm Jim cartoon series used to often repeat the litany for fear. Should that be in here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.126.25.46 (talk) 13:17, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Nah, it's hard to imagine a context in which that trivial detail could contribute in an encyclopedic fashion to the understanding of the subject broadly. Snow talk 14:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Use of "excise"

Hai.

The last paragraph of the article's "Reception" section reads:

"Writing for The New Yorker, Jon Michaud praises Herbert's "clever authorial decision" to excise robots and computers ("two staples of the genre") from his fictional universe, ..."

Isn't that a completely idiotic and incorrect use of the word "excise"? Did whoever wrote that actually mistake it for "exclude", or am I missing something?

Tanks.

CL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.67.130.88 (talk) 12:24, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Gender issues

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the portrayal of a homosexual character (whether negatively or positively) as a "gender issue", unless this is one of the frequent misuses of "gender" as a "euphemism" (as if one were needed) for "sex(ual)". Sexual orientation has little to do with gender. Even more to the point, it was Frank Herbert himself that chose to make the sole homosexual character in the book so repulsive, thereby confirming one of the abiding anti-gay prejudices (that gay men are often ugly, old and paedophile). Another 1960s male sci-fi writer who put down gays as a group was Robert Heinlein in "Stranger in a strange land": his sexually promiscuous "Martian" character Michael turned down advances from men on the grounds that he "grokked (i.e. sensed) a wrongness" in their sexuality.

Lynch would surely have been quite wrong to adapt Herbert's implicit views on sexual orientation to ones that only became current a couple of decades later. Of course, one might have hoped that Herbert, being a sci-fi writer, was sufficiently prescient/iconoclastic to present a future world in which homosexuality was accepted as normal - but it seems he was sufficiently mid-20th-century American (and male) not to. In any case, his then publishers would almost certainly have shot down any such suggestion on commercial (or obscenity?!) grounds.213.127.210.95 (talk) 16:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

On the subject of gender issues, It's worth the time to note that the Spacing Guild and Bene Gesserit represent masculinity and femininity respectively. Also worth noting, but much harder to reinforce, is the notion of the Kwisatz Haderach. It seems that this figure represents the complete person. We all have masculine and feminine tendencies and that's obvious because of the biological fact that every body has testosterone and estrogen. The Kwisatz Haderach is a person that utilizes both those parts. Herbert's decision to make the KH male is open to interpretation but, and this is just my opinion, because of biochemical differences and the psychological consequences those differences create, (forgive me if this sounds sexist) it seems more likely a man could wield and use his femininity than a woman could wield/use her masculinity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BC81:C660:EDAE:9A4F:A38A:532E (talk) 03:42, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

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In popular culture

Wilfred (U.S. TV series); http://www.metro.co.uk/tv/reviews/872529-elijah-woods-comedy-wilfred-is-no-dog :

A comedy that kicks off with a failed suicide attempt and follows it up with a beardy bloke in a dog suit lifting quotes from Frank Herbert’s Dune is practically cocking its leg and spraying its self-conscious wackiness all over you....Luckily for him, salvation came in the shape of his next-door neighbour’s dog, the eponymous Wilfred, who Ryan is alone in seeing as a strapping geezer with an Aussie accent.

--Gwern (contribs) 14:24 22 August 2011 (GMT)

In the MMORPG Wizard101, sections of the latest world of Mirage borrow from Dune, with many names slightly altered to fit the feline profile of some of that world's inhabitants. JenniferRSong (talk) 00:26, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

In the season 3 premier of the adult animated series Rick and Morty, a popular line from the book is referenced by a character in the background of a scene when he yells, "He who controls the pants controls the galaxy." Link to video clip SomeEnlightenedNarcissist (talk) 17:35, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

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Significantly influential source not (yet) discussed

This recent article in BoingBoing – https://boingboing.net/2017/09/21/the-brilliant-book-that-inspir.html – describes an apparent major resource used by Herbert in writing Dune, which (so far) has no mention at all in the article. Fellow editors more involved in this (Dune) article might like to consider adding some material. We have an article on the writer in question, Lesley Blanch, though not a separate one on the book in question, The Sabres of Paradise (1960). The connection is alluded to in our article Chakobsa, the actual Caucasian language of the people described by Blanch, which Herbert names (and uses words from) as the language of the Fremen. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.210.199 (talk) 15:15, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Conjecture stated as fact multiple times in the 'Middle-Eastern and Islamic references' section

In this section, both Lawrence of Arabia (1962) and The Sabres of Paradise (1960) are said to have been "identified as influences". The citations for both of these claims are articles published in the 2010s where people make their case based solely on identifying perceived similarities between Dune and the work in question. As far as I'm aware, Frank Herbert has never commented publicly on whether either of these works were influences. I believe the current way the article is written is misleading, and those statements should either be struck entirely or qualified. "Identified as potential influences" would be a far more appropriate statement given the actual merit of the citations provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.91.28.197 (talk) 12:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Good point, I made that change.— TAnthony^Talk 14:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Glossary

'Stephenson said in an interview that this material is an extension of what many science fiction and fantasy novels already offer.
“I can remember reading Dune for the first time, and I started by reading the glossary,” he said. “Any book that had that kind of extra stuff in it was always hugely fascinating to me.”'

http://venturebeat.com/2010/08/31/writer-neal-stephenson-unveils-his-digital-novel-the-mongoliad/ --Gwern (contribs) 15:07 1 September 2010 (GMT)

Not all articles in other languages appear

Why are there internally two different versions of the article about Dune? There is this one, which links to several articles on other Wikipedias, but then there's also another one, which is in 10 other languages, among which German, Dutch and Italian. That article doesn't link to the English article. How can this be fixed? Or am I missing something and are these articles supposed to be separate? 607 (talk) 13:03, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

10,191 AG is the date in the book.

So there's no reason not to have the date mentioned in the original book also in the article.
The question is, does converting it to our date system make it original research.
No it doesn't it's a very simple conversion, covered by WP:CALC.
1945 A.D. is 14255 B.G. the year the atomic bombs where dropped on Japan.
This from the Encyclopedia of Dune.
24.78.228.96 (talk) 03:03, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

cite:

The Dune encyclopedia
Author:	Willis E McNelly; Frank Herbert
Publisher: New York: Berkley Books, ©1984.
ISBN: 0425068137 9780425068137 0552991317 9780552991315

24.78.228.96 (talk) 03:10, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

The Dune Encyclopedia was NOT authored or co-authored by Frank Herbert, just approved by him. It invents all kinds of plot detail and is not an acceptable source for this. The premise of 1945 is not in the appendices of the actual novel.— TAnthony^Talk 22:48, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Adding scholarly references

This article would benefit from more references and the fleshing out of some sections. Could you please clarify the reason for removing the added paragraph with references, TAnthony? —Catsandthings (talk) 06:36, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I've just restored a paragraph that I accidentally removed during my last edit, is this what you're referring to? Sorry about that and thanks for the catch!— TAnthony^Talk 18:41, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

"Paul takes a Fremen lover, Chani, and has a son with her, Leto II."

But another Leto II is apparently born in Dune Messiah. Is there a mistake? What happens to the first Leto II? 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:D50F:A654:4079:5F07 (talk) 07:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

The first Leto II is murdered as an infant by the Sardaukar. Leto II the God Emperor (from Dune Messiah etc) is a different character.— TAnthony^Talk 16:16, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Sources for Arabic connections?

I noticed that there is some disagreement about these edits discussing connections to the Arabic language. I know enough Arabic to see that the statements themselves are true, but without secondary sources their inclusion here looks like WP:SYNTHESIS. @161.130.189.250: do you know of any additional sources, beyond an Arabic dictionary/reference text, which specifically highlights that these Arabic words are notable in Dune? Unfortunately Khalid's blog does not strike me as a reliable source. It would also be good, I think, to go beyond just stating the connection, and indicate why people find it an interesting/meaningful connection. A google scholar search would be a good start and I'd be happy to help folks access paywalled articles, though I don't have time to do much writing myself right now. Pinging TAnthony as well since you've been interested. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, yes obviously these additions were not properly sourced and definitely represent original research. I only gave a cursory explanation in my edit summary, but I understand that the nuances of sourcing at Wikipedia are complicated. I'm not disputing the validity of these observations or the translations, but as LEvalyn points out, we require reliable sources to make these connections and assert notability for the facts/examples.— TAnthony^Talk 18:51, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Gender dynamics

This section should be expanded because the separation of gender roles (e.g., Bene Gesserit, Guild) is stark in the novel and their interplay is critical to the plot. In particular, the breeding manipulations of the Bene Gesserit women aim to produce a Kwisatz Haderach, who must be male.

In addition, the Gom Jabbar test by Helen is not only a test of Paul’s spiritual development and an attempt by her to implant a hook of control in his mind, but also a begrudging willingness by a Bene Gesserit to consider that men are not animals who are slaves to their instincts. The conversation went something like this: Paul: “Are you suggesting that I might be an animal?” Helen: “I am suggesting that you might be a human.”

Then we have the treatment of noblewomen as pawns for marrying into a more favorable status. This leads to the dignified remark Jessica makes to Chani: “We are called concubines, but history will know us as wives.”

And finally there is the matter of Alia as the wildly independent woman, followed by the precocious female member of the twins fathered by Paul. Martindo (talk) 08:48, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Go ahead and be bold so long as it's not original research. ··gracefool 💬 12:01, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

@Gracefool: I would if I still had a copy of the book. Come to think of it, that exchange between Jessica and Chani might have been in the 1984 movie not the novel. I opened this topic so people with motivation and access can address some key points. Martindo (talk) 21:34, 2 October 2021 (UTC)