Talk:Exile on Main St.

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Requested move 19 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Snow moved reluctantly. I promise another proper discussion soon. Give me some time to fix the mess that I made, okay? (non-admin closure) George Ho (talk) 10:42, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Exile on Main St → Exile on Main St. – SilkTork used MOS:STOPS to add the period (.) after "St". However, I reverted the title back per WP:TITLECHANGES because the title has been this way for ~~very long~~ one year. Also, British English rarely or never uses full stop; per MOS:VAR, we should consider abiding to that English variety. Therefore, I'm starting the discussion on the proposal in a proper way, and no warring shall occur. George Ho (talk) 23:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Speedy support per the band's own website [1]. Wikipedia isn't a beaucracy and the revert of SilkTork's move and immediate opening of this request is just a waste of time. Please value your fellow volunteers' time. Calidum 01:03, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy support. I don't mind having a discussion on the article title, but the title should be restored first. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:58, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Full-on speedy support. It's there on the album cover, St., and should never have been changed from that. ("… and no warring shall occur" – hmm.) JG66 (talk) 10:20, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Full-on speedy support. as all others, as sources, as MOS:STOPS. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:36, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Calidum, I often, if not sometimes, do that, especially at Talk:Chandra Levy#Requested move 12 September 2016, Talk:2016 South Korean protests, and Talk:'Round Here. George Ho (talk) 01:55, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, primary source can't be the only source to use. I can't find what company uses the official website. It could be an American or a British company.

US/Canadian sources using "full stop": [2][3][4][5] [6]Paste Reverb.com National Post Vancouver Sun. US sources omitting it:
UK sources omitting "full stop": BBC Mirror NME The Times Guardian (1)Express Daily Mail. UK sources using it: (e-book) [7] Digital Spy(?) Independent Mojo
Sources using "St" as the last word of the sentence: Slant Guardian (1)

Other international sources omitting "full stop": Arab Times ABC (Aussie) Under the Radar (New Zealand ed). Other intl sources using it:

Sources using full name: [8][9] NPR Guardian (2)

As I see, the whole favoring "full stop" seems to be American... or Canadian. However, the Rolling Stones and the album are British-based. Non-US sources reflect that. --George Ho (talk) 03:46, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So you don't dispute the fact that the band includes the full stop in the title? Or the fact that the the common name includes the full stop? Or that MOS:STOPS says to generally use full stops in such cases? Rather, because some -- but not all-- British sources drop the full stop, we should ignore the other points?

Plenty of international sources do use it too: The BBC here and here, The Telegraph, Sydney Morning Herald Calidum 04:13, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's wait for other opinions, please. This album ain't American but British; so is the band. By the way, the BBC sources that you use are old, like 2007 or 2008. The articles that I'm using are this year's and last year's. Books are this century. Also, I can disregard the American sources and rely on international sources, including the British ones. Can you? George Ho (talk) 04:21, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, another reason to not use full stop is... well, convenience? Typing an exact name without a full stop is a little bit more convenient and quick than using it. However, some others may say that redirects do the job. George Ho (talk) 04:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm relying on the band's own spelling of the name, our manual of style and WP:COMMONNAME. Calidum 04:26, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's your interpretation, not mine. And can you amend your comments about me? I don't like being implicitly accused of bureaucracy, and I have good reasons to revert this title. --George Ho (talk) 04:35, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Personal arguments are not going to be helpful to this discussion. Though, it would have been perhaps less troublesome, George, if you had either a) approached me as the recent mover, or b) opened a discussion before moving. Moving the title first, and then opening a discussion is rarely a good idea. Understandable if the move being reverted was controversial, but in this case the move was restoring the accepted usage, so your revert was somewhat irregular, and pushes the boundaries of Wikipedia:Page-move war. As such, it might be helpful to reflect and take on board what has been said to you, and consider it carefully next time you come upon a situation like this. From your correction above it appears to me you didn't look carefully enough into the history of the article title, as you assumed Exile on Main St was the standard title, rather than being a fairly recent move. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:57, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to move protect in order to prevent incidents like this (not the discussion, but the move to Exile on Main St before opening the discussion). The article has mainly been at Exile on Main St. as that is the most common usage, and is what the band themselves use. We shouldn't be in the business of arbitrarily moving article titles on a personal preference (the reason given was "no full stop on album packaging, Br Eng usage for British band", though the Stones themselves use the full stop in the album title name, and British usage for an abbreviation full stop varies - the cover art also has quotation marks around the title, and nobody uses those - cover art should not be used in preference over what reliable sources say). If an article has been at its given title for several years and there is no particular weight of reason to move the title (some sources use A, some sources use B, but no usage particularly dominates) then we shouldn't be moving titles. The move from Exile on Main St. to Exile on Main St was based on a personal whim, not on what sources use, as there is no predominant usage of Exile on Main St. My move was mainly based on WP:Common name (a policy), though I added in MOS:STOPS (a guideline) as a supporter, to indicate that, in the case of abbreviations, full stops are preferred, as that is the direction usage is going in general, so any move now to dropping the full stop is likely to be challenged down the line as more and more sources change to using a full stop. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:45, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 20 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved per what has been said above; consensus is that there is no need to move the page. (non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 18:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Exile on Main St. → Exile on Main St – This is to make up my erroneous previous RM nomination, which I closed soon before this more proper discussion. Also, I misjudged WP:TITLECHANGES, and I thought the omission of "full stop" was the long-time stable title. However, the proposed title stood there for one year before reverting the title back to using "full stop", which has been used since the word "Street" was abbreviated in 2005 into "St." Many American sources use the "full stop", but the British usage was divided on using or omitting full stop. Other international English-language sources omit full stop; a few others use it. If personal preference isn't the answer, secondary sources and rules may be the answer. MOS:VAR says that British English can use or omit full stop, unlike American English. Although official website uses "full stop", British secondary sources are divided. The rule is a little too weak for me, so WP:DIVIDEDUSE says use the "least surprising title". Not easy to determine which one is least surprising, but "Street" is most surprising to me. For those saying the band uses "full stop", maybe we can figure out why they did that. Otherwise, maybe we can figure out why sources omit "full stop". However, no sources discuss why the band and/or its record label did that. To me, "St" is least surprising. George Ho (talk) 11:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (2)

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Oppose and speedy close again per everything above In ictu oculi (talk) 11:51, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and move protect. The move from the stable and long standing title to Exile on Main St was misjudged. I intended to move protect after I restored the original title, but didn't get round to it. Unless there is a good reason to move long standing titles folks shouldn't be doing it. A personal preference for not using an abbreviation full stop, or a misunderstanding of how we name articles, is not a satisfactory reason for changing a title. Unless there is a clear mistake, long standing album titles shouldn't be changed without a discussion, so oppose this request, and protect against future unilateral moves. And apologies to all concerned for not doing the move protection when I should. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:15, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As I said above, the band uses the full stop in the title [10] and we shouldn't disregard this because British sources are inconsistent about whether or not it should be used. Calidum 13:21, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I was the editor who moved the page 16 months ago. If it was so "misguided", then why did my page move remain for so long generating any controversy. Not sure why this has suddenly reared its head again, but I will restate my reasons: there is no full stop on the album cover, and we should use British English (which is generally to omit the full stop) for a British band.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:45, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: There is no problem here that needs fixing. We all have better things to focus our time and energy on. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:30, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion (2)

Any additional comments:

From previous RM:

* US/Canadian sources using "full stop": [11][12][13][14] [15]Paste Reverb.com National Post Vancouver Sun. US sources omitting it:
UK sources omitting "full stop": BBC Mirror NME The Times Guardian (1)Express Daily Mail. UK sources using it: (e-book) [16] Digital Spy(?) Independent Mojo

Sources using "St" as the last word of the sentence: Slant Guardian (1)

Other international sources omitting "full stop": Arab Times ABC (Aussie) Under the Radar (New Zealand ed). Other intl sources using it:

Sources using full name: [17][18] NPR Guardian (2)

Also, Original US LP, original UK LP George Ho (talk) 11:15, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Both omit "full stop". So did US CD rerelease and UK/Euro CD. UK cassette use "St" (omit) and "Street" interchangeably. So did 2005 US CD. More omitted full stop: 1994 US CD, 2010 US, 2010 Euro, 2010 Euro box set. George Ho (talk) 11:23, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The real primary source is the album itself, and the official website might also count as primary source. However, both the album itself and the website are examples of divided usage. George Ho (talk) 11:24, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see a "full stop" in the dust just sleeve, but the rest of the album omits it. George Ho (talk) 11:38, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Terms of use says that Universal Music UK owns the official website. Also, the Universal Music UK is the British division of the American company. Also, IIO, weren't you reading the whole sources that I provided? Can you move your vote to Survey? George Ho (talk) 11:53, 20 December 2016 (UTC) Pinging In ictu oculi. George Ho (talk) 11:56, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SilkTork, did you check discogs links to the album? George Ho (talk) 12:29, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

George, you do know that Discogs is user created in the same way Wikipedia is, don't you? It is not regarded as a reliable source, and contains obvious errors, such as occasionally putting the name down as Exile On Main Street. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 16:54, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, Calidum, most pictures of the album don't use full stop. George Ho (talk) 13:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

George, we don't copy the art on an album cover, as per WP:BANDNAME. Wikipedia doesn't engage in original research, and prefers secondary sources over primary, so what we do is ignore the album cover and look at what reliable sources say. It's generally a red flag when someone moves a title based on their personal reading of an album cover, as it indicates they are not following Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and accepted practise. Almost every case of a move based on "As shown on album cover" gets reverted. What we need is "As shown by the overwhelming majority of reliable sources", because if it's 50/50 of reliable sources then there is no point in doing a move and creating inconsistency in article naming through out Wikipedia. Only a move based on a significant majority of reliable sources should be done. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 16:54, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Umm... SilkTork, didn't Calidum use the official website as source to preserve the full stop? George Ho (talk) 19:08, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In discussions on album titles where reliable sources vary, there is often weighting given to the official band or record company usage; we prefer secondary, but we do use primary. There is, however, a step removed in using original documents which require interpretation (such as album cover art work) and an author's or publisher's explanation of that original document. Anyone using the album cover of Exile as an article title would be selecting only some of it if they say the title should be Exile on Main St as the album title is shown as "Exile on Main St" - therein lies the reason we don't use original documents or album covers. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 19:36, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified

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Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/therollingstones/articles/story/11569598/the_rolling_stones_making_their_masterpiece_exile_on_main_street
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Track Numbers

In the Personnel section, the track numbers don't match the track numbers in the Track Listing section. The numbers in the Track Listing Section go from 1-(X=<5) for each of the four sides of Exile on Main St. In the Personnel section, references are made to tracks 12, 14, etc. There is an argument that you could just count them up, but this is somewhat complicated by the inclusion of a track listing for a 2010 bonus disc which does include track numbers greater than 5. Maybe this is related to the Wiki standard for referring to track numbers, but it might be easier to just say "Side X Track Y" in the Personnel section or re-number the tracks 1-18 in the Track Listing section. I am not familiar enough with Wiki policy in this area to do any of this myself. Solo1y (talk) 11:24, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Solo1y:, I fixed it: the personnel section now has the song titles in place of the numbers. Thanks for bringing this up. And yes, there is a style guide for album articles and their track listings, here, that encourages using the numbering of whichever format it was originally released on; continuous numbering for CD, and restarting at #1 for each LP side. Dan56 (talk) 13:07, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Dan56:, Thank you.

Wrong info about personell

There are many statements by the band and their producers, and their wifes/girlfriends, that Nellcote was open to basically anybody, but the basement was restricted to the inner circle only. No friends ever 'wandered' to the basement. John Lennon never visited Nellcote, that is a fake story (also that he threw up on the carpet). Dr. John did back-up vocals only, recored at Olympic Studio in 1970, and he doesn not play piano on any of the songs. Bobby Whitlock has stated in various interviews and his own Facebook page he played wurlitzer on I Just Want To See His Face, recorded at Olympic Studio in 1970. Heteren (talk) 10:34, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cite a reliable source. Dan56 (talk) 22:22, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]