Talk:Fear of God

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Merged from Fear of the Lord

Merged to the more neutral/generic title as per Sept 2010 banner. Page move request to Fear of God pending.In ictu oculi (talk) 01:39, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can see a page move request being reasonable but in the meantime I have restored the Fear of God disambiguation page as it is a cut/paste move to Fear of God (disambiguation). This is undesirable as it separates the history of these articles. If a move request is successful the move can be done properly. Tassedethe (talk) 01:45, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, been so long since have done one of these am having difficulty remembering the procedure. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:48, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move (2011)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Insufficient consensus to make these moves at this time Mike Cline (talk) 16:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

– per WP:COMMONNAME the current disambiguation page only has a few heavy metal album titles, derivative from the COMMONNAME and therefore not a sufficient reason to budge the basic meaning of the term into a bracket "(religion)" In ictu oculi (talk) 07:16, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

comment if this move happens, then The Fear of God should also redirect here (with that article moved off to The Fear of God (album)). 65.94.77.11 (talk) 07:49, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. ~~WP:COMMONNAME~~ WP:PRIMARYTOPIC seems clear. I doubt calling this "Fear of God" would confuse anyone. --Pnm (talk) 21:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – I would have no idea what an article titled "Fear of God" is about. The parenthetical disambiguation at least clues me in that it's a religious topic. Dicklyon (talk) 07:05, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I on the other hand expected to see an article about a religion titled "Fear of God" when I first saw the current title. For example we have Creativity (religion), Kalasha (religion), Kuksu (religion), Romuva (religion), etc. The disambiguator does seem to be used in the purpose you describe, but we shouldn't disambiguate articles in cases where one meaning is clearly the more likely search target for that term. Jafeluv (talk) 15:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Would "(religious)" be a better disambiguator? Dicklyon (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If a disambiguator is needed, I would prefer a noun form like "(religious concept)". But as below I don't think a disambiguator is needed in this case. If you look at traffic statistics, this page attracts twice as much page views as the other meanings combined ([1][2][3][4][5]), so clearly readers are more often looking for this article than any of the others. Jafeluv (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support move. Clearly primary meaning over any of the others listed on the dab page. Jafeluv (talk) 14:19, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the common name. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 21:59, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how COMMONNAME applies. This is a descriptive title, not a name of something. And the question is only about the disambiguator, not the main title choice. Dicklyon (talk) 15:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
According to the lead, fear of God is an attitude in certain monotheistic religions. This title is the name of something. A descriptive title would be something like Roman Catholicism by country or perhaps Evolutionary origin of religions, which combine the names of two things. I cited WP:COMMONNAME too, but it's actually WP:PRIMARYTOPIC that I was thinking of. --Pnm (talk) 02:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I disagree that PRIMARYTOPIC even applies, given that I can't imagine people actually searching Wikipedia for such a concept. I support leaving the disambiguation page in place although do agree that the disambiguator could be clarified to, for example, 'religious concept' as suggested above. ῤerspeκὖlὖm in ænigmate_(talk)(spy) 16:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The page consistently gets about 2000 views per month, so readers certainly are looking for information on this topic on Wikipedia. Jafeluv (talk) 16:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't think the religious topic is the primary topic here. Fear of God, for most people, is a generic statement and pointing to the disambiguation page rather than to a specific religious concept makes more sense. --regentspark (comment) 15:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I think it's clear that out of the articles which exist that "Fear of God" could refer to, this one is the one people are most likely to be looking for. The page view statistics help making this clear[6][7]. That means this article is the primary topic. Disambiguation terms should only be used for actual disambiguation, not for all sorts of other purposes, like describing or clarifying the topic of the article. Stuff like that should be done in the body of the article.TheFreeloader (talk) 04:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"god" vs. religion

Fear of a god or gods is not the same as fearing religion. Atheists often fear religion(s). Atheists do not fear a god or gods.--Dana60Cummins (talk) 20:06, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Move? (2013)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 04:30, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fear of God (religion) → Fear of God –

God or gods is not religion Dana60Cummins (talk) 20:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Fear of God is currently a disambiguation page. This move would make this article the primary topic, which shouldn't be made as technical request. Full discussion needed. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 21:37, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- How isn't this a 'full discussion'? LCS check (talk) 16:06, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is. This was originally a technical request, which Anthony Appleyard converted to an RM along with Armbrust's contesting statement. --BDD (talk) 16:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per the 2011 requested move; Suggest Fear of God (Abrahmic religions) instead, since it is only about the concept in relation to Abrahmic religions. It does not cover fearing of the gods of other religions. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 01:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. "Fear of God" is a term of art in the Abrahamic religions. This article can be expanded to include other religions if it can be shown that this term is relevant to them. There is no article on the disambiguation page that could vie with this one to be the primary topic. Srnec (talk) 03:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment fear of the gods is a frequent feature found in various material, such as studies on the ancient Roman gods and sacrifices for them, etc. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 05:18, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - Added some Buddhism to the mix. LCS check (talk) 20:31, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support.The problem is that, a fear of a god or gods is one phobia, while a fear of religion is another phobia. Two very different phobias.--Dana60Cummins (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Question is, is the concept of fearing a deity more central than the bands and/or songs? Answer must be yes, even if limited to Abrahamic models. No rule against then adding fear of all sorts of deities to the article, or noting which faiths have no concept of fearing deity, and why this is. LCS check (talk) 17:54, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Against all the other topics, this one is primary, and the title is broad enough for all incidences of a man fearing a god to be included thereunder. DeistCosmos (talk) 19:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Compare to the RM outcome of Life on Mars. This is a longstanding topic, and it's safe to assume that other entities with this name are derivative, and thus to call this a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --BDD (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Buddhism Section

The recently added section on Buddhism seems to be irrelevant to the article. According to the section itself, "The concept of a fear of God is resolutely denied in Buddhism". If the "Fear of God" is not part of Buddhism, then I do not think Buddhism should be given a section in an article entitled "Fear of God". Furthermore, it seems to me that after the first sentence this section does not continue to discuss the fear of god, but rather Buddhism in general. I am going to remove the section, if LCS Check, who created the section, or anyone else objects, I would like to see some justification for the section remaining in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjrct (talk • contribs) 01:50, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

With apologies to LCS check, and appreciation for his or her work, I agree. While the effort to expand the article beyond Abrahamic religions is admirable, the section, while well written, just stated there there is no fear of god in Buddhism because there is no god. It seemed tangential. It seems that there could be an analogous concept in Hinduism, however, or various ethnic religions. I had to wikilink. That term sounds so archaic... --BDD (talk) 03:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with this removal, for two reasons: one, the section ad I read it offers an explanation as why the 'fear of God' doesn't exist in Buddhism, which is important to an understanding of such fear where it does exist. And two, Buddhism still allows for a kind of 'fear of God' in the form of the fear of morally inferior but still supernatural entities (gods), which can be directly addressed to the gods of other faiths. Why not restore, but in a new subsection at the bottom for faiths like Buddhism, Pantheism/Pandeism, etc. to account for their rejection of such belief? DeistCosmos (talk) 18:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I could see that as making sense, a section on faiths in which the "fear of God" is rejected near the end of the article, but I still think that the Buddhism section contained a majority of information that was of little relevance to the topic at hand, and I think that this should be remedied before the content from the section is reintroduced to the article. To elaborate, it seemed to me that the explanation which seemed to be intended to explain why there is no fear of god in Buddhism did not show any correlation between the explanation itself and the fear of god. Sjrct (talk) 20:41, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think essentially Buddhism 's position can be summed up as, firstly there are not necessarily any gods to fear at all (which would coincide with atheistic objections to the notion), and secondly that if there are gods to be feared, this is not because such gods are great, but only insofar as they too are ignorant of the reality as taught by the Buddha. DeistCosmos (talk) 22:06, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Moved the following here, as it is more appropriate in an article on Buddhism.

The non-adherence^[1] to the notion of an omnipotent creator deity or a prime mover is seen by many as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions. Rather, Buddhism emphasizes the system of causal relationships underlying the universe (pratitya samutpada) which constitute the natural order (dharma). No dependence of phenomena on a supernatural reality is asserted in order to explain the behaviour of matter. According to the doctrine of the Buddha a human being must study Nature (dhamma vicaya) in order to attain personal wisdom (prajna) regarding the nature of things (dharma). In Buddhism the sole aim of spiritual practice is the complete alleviation of stress in samsara,^[2]^[3] called nirvana. But Buddhists do accept the existence of beings in higher realms (see Buddhist cosmology), known as devas, but they, like humans, are said to be suffering in samsara,^[4] and are not necessarily wiser than us. The Buddha is often portrayed as a teacher of the gods,^[5] and superior to them.^[6] Despite this there are believed to be enlightened devas.^[7] But since there may also be unenlightened devas, there may be godlike beings who engage in fearful acts, but if they do so, then they do so out of their own ignorance of a greater truth. Mannanan51 (talk) 19:32, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Bhikku, Thanissaro (1997). Tittha Sutta: Sectarians. Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of a supreme being's act of creation... When one falls back on lack of cause and lack of condition as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative.
^ Thanissaro Bhikku (2004). "Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile". Access To Insight. Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress.
^ Thanissaro Bhikku (2004). "Anuradha Sutta: To Anuradha". Access To Insight. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.
^ John T Bullitt (2005). "The Thirty-one planes of Existence". Access To Insight. Retrieved May 26, 2010. The suttas describe thirty-one distinct "planes" or "realms" of existence into which beings can be reborn during this long wandering through samsara. These range from the extraordinarily dark, grim, and painful hell realms to the most sublime, refined, and exquisitely blissful heaven realms. Existence in every realm is impermanent; in Buddhist cosmology there is no eternal heaven or hell. Beings are born into a particular realm according to both their past kamma and their kamma at the moment of death. When the kammic force that propelled them to that realm is finally exhausted, they pass away, taking rebirth once again elsewhere according to their kamma. And so the wearisome cycle continues.
^ Susan Elbaum Jootla (1997). "II. The Buddha Teaches Deities". In Access To Insight (ed.). Teacher of the Devas. Kandy, Sri Lanka: Buddhist Publication Society. Many people worship Maha Brahma as the supreme and eternal creator God, but for the Buddha he is merely a powerful deity still caught within the cycle of repeated existence. In point of fact, "Maha Brahma" is a role or office filled by different individuals at different periods." "His proof included the fact that "many thousands of deities have gone for refuge for life to the recluse Gotama" (MN 95.9). Devas, like humans, develop faith in the Buddha by practicing his teachings." "A second deva concerned with liberation spoke a verse which is partly praise of the Buddha and partly a request for teaching. Using various similes from the animal world, this god showed his admiration and reverence for the Exalted One.", "A discourse called Sakka's Questions (DN 21) took place after he had been a serious disciple of the Buddha for some time. The sutta records a long audience he had with the Blessed One which culminated in his attainment of stream-entry. Their conversation is an excellent example of the Buddha as "teacher of devas," and shows all beings how to work for Nibbana.
^ Bhikku, Thanissaro (1997). Kevaddha Sutta. Access To Insight. When this was said, the Great Brahma said to the monk, 'I, monk, am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be... That is why I did not say in their presence that I, too, don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. So you have acted wrongly, acted incorrectly, in bypassing the Blessed One in search of an answer to this question elsewhere. Go right back to the Blessed One and, on arrival, ask him this question. However he answers it, you should take it to heart.
^ "Yidams". Himalayanart.org. Retrieved 12 January 2015.

Just an Abrahamic phenomenon?

Seems like it, maybe the article should make that point? ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 20:45, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, lots of religions had scary gods. Zeus might blast you with lightning, Yahweh could smite you with fire, Thor could hammer you, Quetzlcoatl could crush you like a bug. Depending who you asked locally, this just just as well be a righteous fear of such a god acting righteously as well. DeistCosmos (talk) 22:20, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Parable of the Talents

I find it curious that in an article on Fear of God, there is no discussion of the Parable of the Talents. Since the servant who is criticized and punished is the one who feared his master, this parable might be taken as a repudiation of Fear of God as a good thing. For completeness, therefore, the Fear of God article needs to include an analysis that repudiates such an interpretation of the parable.

24.162.252.119 (talk) 17:23, 30 March 2014 (UTC) Austin Meredith, March 30, 2014, kouroo@kouroo.info[reply]

POV

There is a POV tag on this article. Is there a specific reason? I would consider removing if the issue is no longer in the forefront. Basileias (talk) 03:47, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fear of God as negative influence

Many people have a fear of God that cannot be characterized as respect and awe but as raw terror...fear of divine retribution, fear of an afterlife, etc. The lives of these people are greatly diminished by this terror. It can be as debilitating and all-consuming as any other phobia. Discussion of this phobia should rightly be here, as the article on "theophobia" concentrates on those who feel an enmity towards God and religion. Jwinburn (talk) 17:29, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What you are suggesting is that this article should advocate for some POV on the value (positive or negative) of the fear of God. Labeling something (not in the DSM) as a phobia, is a debater's tactic to demonize the opposition, as with the slur word "homophobia." (EnochBethany (talk) 17:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC))[reply]

NPOV & Rational Basis of Discussion

This article should not set forth with the place of the "fear of God" in RCC theology. There could be a section on the various definitions in different sects, like the RCC. So how shall this be fixed? It might start with the "fear of God" in various cultures and include the concept in the Old Testament & New Testament with a presentation of the various Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek words thus used. Right now, I am thinking that the initial presentation of fear in RCC religion should be deleted. It could be added in a later section after an objective discussion of the concept has been made. Does anyone object to deleting that section? (EnochBethany (talk) 17:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC))[reply]

I decided to go ahead and move the RCC stuff down, so that it does not lead, but starts with Abraham. (EnochBethany (talk) 17:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC))[reply]

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[1] Bhikku, Thanissaro (1997). Tittha Sutta: Sectarians. Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of a supreme being's act of creation... When one falls back on lack of cause and lack of condition as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative.

[2] Thanissaro Bhikku (2004). "Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile". Access To Insight. Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress.

[3] Thanissaro Bhikku (2004). "Anuradha Sutta: To Anuradha". Access To Insight. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.

[4] John T Bullitt (2005). "The Thirty-one planes of Existence". Access To Insight. Retrieved May 26, 2010. The suttas describe thirty-one distinct "planes" or "realms" of existence into which beings can be reborn during this long wandering through samsara. These range from the extraordinarily dark, grim, and painful hell realms to the most sublime, refined, and exquisitely blissful heaven realms. Existence in every realm is impermanent; in Buddhist cosmology there is no eternal heaven or hell. Beings are born into a particular realm according to both their past kamma and their kamma at the moment of death. When the kammic force that propelled them to that realm is finally exhausted, they pass away, taking rebirth once again elsewhere according to their kamma. And so the wearisome cycle continues.

[5] Susan Elbaum Jootla (1997). "II. The Buddha Teaches Deities". In Access To Insight (ed.). Teacher of the Devas. Kandy, Sri Lanka: Buddhist Publication Society. Many people worship Maha Brahma as the supreme and eternal creator God, but for the Buddha he is merely a powerful deity still caught within the cycle of repeated existence. In point of fact, "Maha Brahma" is a role or office filled by different individuals at different periods." "His proof included the fact that "many thousands of deities have gone for refuge for life to the recluse Gotama" (MN 95.9). Devas, like humans, develop faith in the Buddha by practicing his teachings." "A second deva concerned with liberation spoke a verse which is partly praise of the Buddha and partly a request for teaching. Using various similes from the animal world, this god showed his admiration and reverence for the Exalted One.", "A discourse called Sakka's Questions (DN 21) took place after he had been a serious disciple of the Buddha for some time. The sutta records a long audience he had with the Blessed One which culminated in his attainment of stream-entry. Their conversation is an excellent example of the Buddha as "teacher of devas," and shows all beings how to work for Nibbana.

[6] Bhikku, Thanissaro (1997). Kevaddha Sutta. Access To Insight. When this was said, the Great Brahma said to the monk, 'I, monk, am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be... That is why I did not say in their presence that I, too, don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. So you have acted wrongly, acted incorrectly, in bypassing the Blessed One in search of an answer to this question elsewhere. Go right back to the Blessed One and, on arrival, ask him this question. However he answers it, you should take it to heart.

[7] "Yidams". Himalayanart.org. Retrieved 12 January 2015.

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