Talk:Manx2 Flight 7100

METAR

OK, Need a bit of help with the METAR - EICK 101000Z 09008KT 0400 R17/0600N R35/0450N FG BKN001 05/05 Q1010 NOSIG

EICK = METAR for Cork Airport
101000Z = Issued on the 10th of the month at 10:00 Zulu time
09008KT = Winds 090° at 8kts
0400 = visibility 400 m/ft??
R17/0600N = Runway 17...
R35/0450N = Runway 35...
FG = Fog
BKN001 = Broken clouds at 100ft
05/05 = Temperature 5°c, dewpoint 5°C
Q1010 = QNH 1010 hPa
NOSIG = No significant change expected

Assistance appreciated. Mjroots (talk) 12:37, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't the measurements be in metric - i.e. metres, rather than feet - for Ireland? Nick Cooper (talk) 13:39, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't sure, hence the italic. Anyways, looks like another editor managed a translation on the article itself. Feel free to correct any errors. Mjroots (talk) 13:46, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Nationalities of victims

BBC have reported that one of the flight crew was Spanish, and the passengers came from Northern Ireland. Before this info goes into the article, I think we should agree how they are to be described. Technically, they are British subjects, but there are many people in that part of the world who object to being called British, and no doubt there are editors on Wikipedia who hold that view. My proposed solution is this:-

Nationality	Crew	Passengers	Killed	Injured
Irish	-	9	4	5
British	1	1	1	1
Spanish	1	-	1	-
Total	2	10	6	6

Discuss. Mjroots (talk) 06:44, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}} is available if you need it. It would be better than using the Union Jack beside a nationality defined as "Irish". Either call the person British and use the Jack, or Northern Irish, and use the Northern Irish flag. — O'Dea 08:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Unconstructive comment/PA by 92.7.106.210 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) removed by Mjroots (talk)

My (biased?) opinion is that the correct way to describe those from Northern Ireland is "British" as they hold British passports. There is no such thing as a "Northern Ireland passport". However, I am aware that many people from Northern Ireland refer to themselves as Irish and are offended if they are called British. In the sense of ethnicity, Irish is correct, but ethnicity and nationality are not the same thing.

Please note, further unconstructive or abusive comments or personal attacks will be removed, and administrative action taking, including blocking from editing. My banhammer is at the ready. Mjroots (talk) 10:22, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The alternative table suggested by O'Dea would look like this:-

Nationality	Crew	Passengers	Killed	Injured
Irish	-	9	4	5
British	1	1	1	1
Spanish	1	-	1	-
Total	2	10	6	6

Any further suggestions? Mjroots (talk) 10:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

No, my suggestion looks llike this:

Nationality	Crew	Passengers	Killed	Injured
Northern Irish	-	9	4	5
British	1	1	1	1
Spanish	1	-	1	-
Total	2	10	6	6

— O'Dea 11:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Better just to say that three of the dead were from Northern Ireland, two from England, and one from Spain, and not use flags to get nationalism involved in the reporting of such a sad incident. Bear in mind that there is lengthy controversy on the pages of Wikipedia about flags for Northern Ireland, and we don't need that here. - David Biddulph (talk) 10:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Sticking to Government defined nationalities would give this. Mjroots (talk) 11:09, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Nationality	Crew	Passengers	Killed	Injured
British	1	10	5	6
Spanish	1	-	1	-
Total	2	10	6	6

Flags could be omitted as David Biddulph suggested, they are not necessary, and instead of a column heading, "Nationality", write "From" instead, then put in Northern Ireland, Britain (or England), and so on.

From	Crew	Passengers	Killed	Injured
Northern Ireland	-	9	4	5
Britain	1	1	1	1
Spain	1	-	1	-
Total	2	10	6	6

— O'Dea 11:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

New comment added into old discussion

There is no such nationality as Northern Irish,and Northern Ireland is not part of Britian,You are Irish if you are born on the Island of Ireland British If you are Born on the Island of Britian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.111.246 (talk) 16:35, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Probably not relevant as we have moved past this point a long time ago but if you look at this proposal it says "from" and not nationality, actually people from Northern Ireland can choose to be British or Irish or both. MilborneOne (talk) 16:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Return to original discussion

The table may not yet be accurate, at least one of the survivors was from the Republic of Ireland (BBC). However, we should continue the discussion so that the format of the table can be decided upon and the table added once all info is known. The Corkman reports that of the survivors, two were from Northern Ireland, two from the Republic of Ireland and one from the UK. Mjroots (talk) 12:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Just because someone is 'from' NI, doesn't give them a specific nationality, beit Irish, British or NornIrish. They might be Polish or Vietnamese or whatever. Someone is 'from' somewhere when they are 'from' that place. Lets not synthesise nationality from that. If we have reliable sources that someone has a particular nationality, then by all means introduce it. Fmph (talk) 13:13, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Should the table not give the country that the victims were from, United Kingdom, Republic of Ireland, Spain not British etc. MilborneOne (talk) 16:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

If we head the column "Nationality", then we use the denonym. If we head the column "from", then we should use the name of the country. That said, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Unfortunately "English" is not a valid nationality nowadays. Hence my first effort using Irish and British both with the same flag. Mjroots (talk) 19:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

List of victims

Per WP:NOTMEMORIAL, I have removed the list of victims. As far as I can tell, none of them are notable enough to sustain an article. Mjroots (talk) 06:38, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree it should not be included not only NOT:MEMORIAL but by consensus and guidelines on accident articles. MilborneOne (talk) 14:33, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Images

Today, there have been three images on this article which were copyrighted images that the uploader claimed to have released on a public domain licence. In all cases they have been deleted. FWIW, I think that a photograph of the crashed aircraft is justified. However, this needs to be gone about in the correct manner. We need to show that the image is copyrighted, and a Non-free Fair Use Rationale needs to be shown on the file giving valid reasons as to why we are using a copyright image on Wikipedia. Mjroots (talk) 19:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Article move to "Manx2 Flight NM7100"

What is Flight Avia? Where is its website? Should this article be called Flight Avia Flight 7100 at all? Why not Manx2 Flight NM7100 or even Air Lada Flight 7100? The Irish Aviation Authority [announced the crash] of Flight Avia No FLT400C; most media reports described it as a Manx2 flight, and the Belfast Telegraph mentioned Air Lada, "the company that owns the plane". I can find no easily visible web presence for any Flight Avia company, nor can I see it listed in any online flight booking website.

The Manx2 schedule describes the flight as NM7100. Belfast Airport talks about Manx2 Flight NM7100 as well. Cork Airport's schedule also calls it Flight NM7100. That is three official sources; this article should be called Manx2 Flight NM7100 so I have moved it. If anyone finds a website for Flight Avia, please document it here, or link to it in the article. — O'Dea (talk) 04:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the new title, per WP:COMMONNAME. Yes, technically, this wasn't operated by Manx2 (as they are a virtual airline), but virtually of all media references call it a Manx2 flight. Ravendrop 04:57, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Per COMMONNAME, Manx2 Flight xxxx is good, but we don't use the designator, So Manx2 Flight 7100 should be the title. Mjroots (talk) 06:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. Will have to watch for double redirects when (if) moved. Ravendrop 07:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I have moved it as discussed but does anybody have a reliable source who actually the code "NM" belongs to. MilborneOne (talk) 14:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Article has been moved 4 or 5 times now. Therefore, I've move protected it. Any further requests for a move will need to go via WP:RM. The designator NM is Manx2's as far as I can tell from Pprune. Mjroots (talk) 14:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Understand the Manx2 Flight 7100 is the common name but as Manx2 is not an airline only a ticket agency so clearly can not have an IATA or ICAO code the official IATA website http://www.iata.org/ps/publications/pages/code-search.aspx has the code allocated to FLM Aviation which operates services for Manx2. MilborneOne (talk) 20:40, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

McGuinness

I've re-added the info about McGuinness. As a very high profile politician, he is notable enough to be mentioned in this article. I did raise the question of whether or not the info should also be in his article, but it would appear that consensus is that it shouldn't. Mjroots (talk) 06:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I have removed Martin McGuinness once again because he is not relevant to the story. He did not fly. He was not injured. He was like anyone else who did not fly. We cannot make a list of people who did not fly! What would be the point? It would be like the silly headline, "Man not killed in crash because having lunch far away." This distracts from a dignified account of those who were actually killed. McGuinness simply has no place in the narrative. It is absurd to have him here, just because a tabloid newspaper like the Daily Mail seeks to fill space that way. Wikipedia is not in the business of generating content merely to fill space like a tabloid paper or television channel which needs to fill the airwaves to survive. Finally, it was stated above that a consensus was reached that McGuinness should not be in the article, so it was absurd and inconsistent to quote that consensus, then to ignore it and to restore him. I cannot understand the thinking behind that. — O'Dea (talk) 07:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't sound like consennsus to me. I'll be re-adding the MMG info as newsworthy and relevant.

The consensus referred to was on Talk:Martin McGuinness. — O'Dea (talk) 07:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

That discussion was about whether or not to add the info to the Martin McGuinness article. Consensus seems to be that it is not sufficiently notable in the grand scheme of McGuinness's life. In the context of the accident however, it is worth mentioning. Mjroots (talk) 07:33, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Why? the justification just added above says "newsworthy and relevant" but the whole point is that is isn't either newsworthy or relevant. It is irrelevant. That is the point, here and on his talk page; the same considerations apply. Newsworthy? But he was nowhere near the flight; he did not fly. It is not news if nothing happened. — O'Dea (talk) 07:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

You stated on McGuinness's talk page,

"Irish politics is not my area of expertise...I'm leaving it up to those who do edit regularly in this area as to whether or not to include the info."

You have abandoned that admirable humility for this article, so contradicting yourself. You already received replies that it was not relevant. The same logic applies here, but even more so. The victims' dignity is simply degraded by inclusion of what is literally, a non-event. You argue about notability guidelines being applied to people who were on the flight, and now you want to include the name of one who did not fly? That is inconsistent. Please think about that and do not include McGuinness without reaching consensus. — O'Dea (talk) 08:04, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Not sure that a mention of McGuinness is really relevant just one of many what ifs, the quote I have seen is In fact, I am going to be in Munster tomorrow and I had contemplated travelling on this flight, but that changed due to other circumstances. If he had actually been booked then cancelled but just for contemplating it is not notable. MilborneOne (talk) 14:47, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Not a memorial

The policy WP:NOTMEMORIAL states,

"Wikipedia is not the place to memorialise deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements."

The table of passengers and crew is not a memorial because it does not commemorate anyone, describe their lives, or attempt to add biography to the article. It is merely a minimal list of people, the purpose of which is to illustrate the outcome of the event being reported in the article: deaths and injuries. The table advances the narrative without memorialising anyone. The table is not a headstone. It had already been proposed to create a table showing deaths and injuries. Difficulty arose about how to describe nationality. I sought to finesse that difficulty by listing where people lived, as well as where they came from originally, and allow the reader to infer whatever they like about nationality. I simply bypassed the nationality question by these means. The non-notable pilot and co-pilot were already named in the article and have not been removed from it. It is legitimate to name them. The non-notable guideline does not apply to this table because no-one is attempting to create articles about passengers, such as

John Smith (1952–2011) was a passenger who sustained injuries during the crash of Manx2 Flight NM7100.

It is also not a memorial because it mentions survivors. — O'Dea (talk) 07:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

It is normal to have a table showing those who were involved in an aircrash by nationality. In the vast majority of aircrashes, the victims are not notable enough to sustain an article, and thus are not named. See Air France Flight 447. There were a few Wikinotable people on board that flight, and they are named. There is no long list naming all the victims of that accident. In this case, I think the crew should not be named. Again, they are not Wikinotable, unlike Captain Sullenberger of US Airways Flight 1549, Captain Haynes and Check-captain Fitch of United Airlines Flight 232, or even Stewardess Harrison of BOAC Flight 712. Mjroots (talk) 07:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

It seems the point has been missed: It is not proposed to create articles memorialising the dead so no violation of the notability policy has occurred. The table lists people on board to show what happened, which is normal. The number on board were so very few that such a list does not burden the article with excessive detail. It is easily digestible and it offers a fast view of what the outcomes were for those on board. It contributes information value to the article without attempting to be a memorial of the dead or a promotion of the living. If it helps, the table can easily be recoded as a show/hide table like the ones showing the miners who were rescued in Chile and the accompanying one listing the men who descended into the mine, all of whom were equally non-notable: they are simply listed for information, no harm done, no violation of any policy. — O'Dea (talk) 07:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

In the case of the Chilean miners, NOTMEMORIAL does not apply, because there were no deaths. One of the miners was a Wikinotable person, having previously been a professional football player. The table could possibly be altered to give just sex and age instead of names. Mjroots (talk) 08:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I know that WP:NOTMEMORIAL does not apply. I am not saying it does; quite the contrary. My argument all along is that the table is not a memorial. I have been saying that. I am not trying to make a memorial, so I agree, WP:NOTMEMORIAL does not apply to the miners or to the flight passengers, not all of whom died, in any case. One of the miners was notable, but they are all listed anyway, and it was not a violation of notability guidelines to list them — because — no articles have been written about them.

If I wrote an article about some José Gonzales just because he was down the mine, that would violate non-notability guidelines. Merely having the miners in a list is not a violation of the guideline. It is important to grasp this point: The mere mention of someone in an article is not a violation of notability guidelines — only writing about them at length is.

I really don't want to seem to insult you, but that is the central point here and it seems necessary to keep repeating that because you have seemed to ignore that vital point. Mentioning a person's name is not a violation of the rules. As for sex and age, what would be the point? Those biographical details are, arguably, not relevant either and, indeed, begin to draw a small portrait of the passengers and therefore, in fact, creep closer to violating the notability guidelines you are actually trying to avoid violating, you see? Adding age and sex only makes it more personal, more biographical. The crash outcome analysis table in the article has been renamed to make it crystal clear that its purpose is not as a memorial. It cannot be mistaken as such now. I have to leave this very time-consuming discussion for a while. — O'Dea (talk) 08:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Isle of Man

Are the UK's aviation authorities considered to be the aviation authority in charge of the aviation Isle of Man? If so, then this should be in WikiProject UK. If the Isle of Man locally has its own aviation bodies that govern air traffic into the island, and the Isle of Man regulates Manx2 or its contracted companies as an airline, then this should be n the Isle of Man WikiProject WhisperToMe (talk) 12:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

The IoM has its own aviation authority, and issues it own aircraft registrations, M- This article should not come under WP:IOM. WP:Ireland is the correct WP geographically speaking. Mjroots (talk) 14:59, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually the Isle of Man Civil Aviation Administration but as Manx2 is just a ticket broker and not an airline they will probably have nothing to do with the accident. It does gets a bit murky as the flight was operated by a Spanish operator between the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland. But as Mjroots said WP:Ireland is probably the most relevant, the only UK angle is the departure airport. MilborneOne (talk) 15:06, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, geography does play a role (Which is why Ireland is there in the first place), but the other angle is the country of the airline operator. (Like why AF 447 is in WikiProject France) and I was trying to figure out which project best addresses "country of the airline operator" - We need to link this to both the "country of geographic place" and "country of the airline operator" WhisperToMe (talk) 17:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

In that case, WP:Spain. SempreVolando (talk) 17:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I switched UK to Spain WhisperToMe (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Naming the people

Seriously, I know the press have released the names but do we really need them plastered on the internet for all to see? Show some respect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.11.14.161 (talk) 02:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

• In order for Wikipedia to have their names, the names have to be published somewhere else first.
• Usually airlines release the passenger manifest, and indicate which passengers are deceased.
• WhisperToMe (talk) 04:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but do we really need them to be plastered all over wikipedia? I doubt that the families wouldnt like it 119.11.14.161 (talk) 05:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

It is normal practice and convention not to list the names in the article unless the individuals are notable (normally indicated by having a wikipedia article) but for some reason not yet clear this article still has them despite being challenged by a number of editors. MilborneOne (talk) 13:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

They are there because Odea (talk · contribs) insists on adding them. Removal by a third editor would surely demonstate consensus is that they should not be included. Mjroots (talk) 14:07, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I remember there was an RFC about listing the names of Gol 1907 and the RFC concluded that only the pilots should have their names posted. It's at - Talk:Gol_Transportes_Aéreos_Flight_1907/RFC:_Passenger_and_crew_list_section#Conclusion - It has a recommendation that a larger community discussion be held on victim lists WhisperToMe (talk) 16:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the list of names as it does not appear to have gained a consensus to be added. Also concerned that giving all the information on injured passengers causes a BLP issue. MilborneOne (talk) 20:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Suicide related to Manx2

OK, bit of an unusual situation this, so bringing it up here for discussion. An ex-Manx2 pilot, who had left Manx2 in the week before the crash, committed suicide as he felt guilty that he should have been on the accident flight. Reported in th Irish Independent newspaper amongst others. Is this notable enough to add to the article? Mjroots (talk) 19:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I would say it was sad but not notable to the accident unless the inquiry specificaly blames him leaving the airline as to the cause, which is doubtful. MilborneOne (talk) 20:31, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Sources

• "Anniversary of Cork Airport crash marked." RTÉ News. Friday 10 February 2012.

WhisperToMe (talk) 23:24, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Images up for deletion

Most of the images in this article are up for deletion at commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Manx2 Flight 7100.--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:22, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

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