Talk:Good Job!

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 14:12, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that before the creation of Good Job!, Paladin Studios has been wanting to collaborate with Nintendo for about a decade? Source: [1]
  • ALT1:... that one of the cut levels from Good Job! was a race track, where the player would drive with an office chair and a fire extinguisher? Source: [2]

• Reviewed: If successful, this would be my 5th DYK credit (1, 2, 3, 4), so quid pro quo exempt One Last Time. Le Panini ^[🥪] 13:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: Although this source is considered unreliable per WP:VG/RS, I had a discussion about using it here, and users considered it fine, due to it being an interview of the developers.

5x expanded by Le Panini (talk). Self-nominated at 13:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC).

• The article was 5x expanded by nominator on January 13, so the nomination is ok. The source is a transcript of an interview with the game's developer, so that should be fine. QPQ is not yet required. Prefer the main hook since that would probably be more interesting to a broad audience. No close paraphrasing or copyright violation as well. It is good to go. OceanHok (talk) 12:48, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

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Requested move 15 January 2021

Good Job! (video game) → Good Job! – Disambiguation unnecessary. No other such page exists with this name. There is Good Job (song), but that is different per WP:SMALLDETAILS. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:43, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Zxcvbnm: But is a ! enough to disambiguate? That point has been queried before several times. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Anthony Appleyard: Yes. See Airplane!._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 02:20, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Does not follow

• Sorry but I don't think the exclamation point is enough to disambiguate based on how it's used in sources. Airplane! would be the exception to the rule. "Good Job!" is not distinguished in even the video game public's mind as referring more to a specific game than the general phrase. "Video game" would be more helpful as a disambiguator. @Anthony Appleyard (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 18:20, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

  I'd have to agree with czar on this one. While there is no specific article with an exclamation point alongside "Good Job", this is a very common phrase. In fact, searching up "good job game" will show anything but, mostly football. Even searching "Good Job Nintendo video game" you still won't find much. Panini ^🥪 03:40, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Good Job!/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: DocFreeman24 (talk · contribs) 06:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi there! I'm going to take a look at this in the next few days and evaluate for GA! DocFreeman24 (talk) 06:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

DocFreeman24, Thanks! Before you begin, I know the article is short, but honestly, I think I found everything that's reliable out there. Panini ^🥪 17:24, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

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Hey @Panini!: here is my review! Pardon the pun but, generally speaking, good job! The review is on hold for now because one of the sources you rely on for a lot of the development section (Nintendo Everything) is considered unreliable by the community per Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources. If you can find a replacement source and address the other issues I flag below (which are mostly minor wordsmithing suggestions), then I think I can approve for GA status!

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   There were a few points in the article where the prose was hard to follow or a touch confusing. If any of these rub you the wrong way, feel free to say so/reject them as there's definitely some subjective preferences when it comes to word choice. But hopefully they are non-controversial.

Lead

"The developers decided with using minimal design to help appeal to a broader audience."

I would suggest changing "decided with using minimal design" to "decided to use a minimalistic art style" as I think that's what you're trying to say here? Alternatively, can you better explain what you're trying to convey with "minimal design" as it wasn't clear to me.

 Done.

Gameplay

"Upon completing the task, the player is graded on how long it took to complete the level, as well as the money repair costs for damage; there is generally no penalty from the amount of damage done."

This was a touch confusing to me as you say that the player is "graded" based on two things (the time it took and the money repair costs) but then you say there's no penalty for the amount of damage done. Is that statistic just calculated for the sake of it or does it go into the game's evaluation of the player's performance? Perhaps you can clarify.

The game suggests that its graded on both criteria, but according to reviewers, damage barely accounts for anything compared to the time it takes. I've clarified a bit more in the text.

 Done.

"The gameplay is broken up into levels, each level being a different floor that covers a different type of business."

Would suggest adding a "with" after "levels" and before "each" and removing comma.

 Done.

"Clothing pieces can be found throughout the level for customizing the character."

Would suggest tweaking to say "Clothing pieces can be found throughout the game that allow the player to customize their character's appearance."

 Done.

Development

"The process of developing new levels initially started with defining the main objective, quickly creating a prototype to determine if it would be enjoyable."

Would suggest adding an "and then" after the comma in this sentence.

"From there, they would consider the multiple ways of completing the task; they would create the level layout and a 'non-destructive' solution, where no damage is necessary. The non-destructive solution was created first, due to it being 'the most difficult thing to get right, level design wise.' After, the 'destructive shortcuts' were created."

These sentences are a somewhat hard to follow. I would sugest reworking to this (assuming its accurate in your view): "From there, the developers would consider the various ways the main objective could be completed, including how the level should be laid out and how the objective could be accomplished without having to destroy anything. This 'non-destructive solution' was created first, due to it being 'the most difficult thing to get right, level design wise.' Afterwards, 'destructive shortcuts' were created that allowed for faster or more creative solutions."

"The character design and minimal art style was decided upon from the beginning."

Should be "were" there instead of "was" since its two items that were decided upon at the beginning.

@DocFreeman24: This section has been deemed non-usable by us, so this section is gonna be blown up and rewritten with the new source. I'll need you re-evaluation once this is done!

@DocFreeman24: Finished, so needs a re-evaluation. It might be a little rough in organization after I removed info. Panini^🥪 14:24, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Panini!, here's a few final notes on the development section. Once these are done, I'll approve the GA. Thanks for doing such a good job!

• "For about ten years, Paladin Studios always hoped to partner with Nintendo, as most of the company's developers grew up playing Nintendo games."

I know this was in the earlier version, but can we please reword as it's a bit clunky (e.g., it sounds weird to say that someone had "always hoped" to do something for a specific period of time. Either its "always" or its a period of time). Here's my suggested rework: "Most of Paladin Studio's developers had grown up playing Nintendo games and the studio had always hoped that it would have the opportunity to partner with them."

•  Done.

• "as well as simple controls"

This doesn't really fit the sentence. Perhaps change to "as well as one that had simple controls"?.

• Hey, grammar. I did a good job on this and definitely checked twice.
•  Done.

• "They decided to use an office theme due to it being easily recognizable and allowed for more surprising approaches to simple tasks."

Suggested rework as the "allowed" clause doesn't fit in this sentence structure: "They decided to set the game in an office setting, as it was easily recognizable and would allow players to use common objects in surprising ways."

• ctrl c ctrl v

   Done.

• "They liked the imbalance of a common setting with destructive actions."

The source (as read via machine translation) uses the word contrast and that seems to better fit the subject than "imbalance." So maybe something like "The developers came to appreciate the contrast between the mundane office setting and the chaotic, destructive gameplay."

•  Done.

• "To learn about themselves, both companies wrote personal biographies about who they are and how they work."

The IGN source doesn't support this as far as I can tell, so it needs to be removed, unfortunately.

• I could've sworn it was in the gamer.nl source.

   Done.

• "Due to both companies being in different parts of the world, it helped further their intentions of being enjoyable by a larger group of players. Although both companies had similar ideas, they sometimes had conflicting opinions on the office setting, as certain parts of a typical building were different in the two countries."

This is an awkward sentence and also not very well supported by the IGN source. Suggested rework: "The nationalities of each studio also played a role in the development, with both studios providing feedback into how their respective home markets would experience the game."

• There's actually a hidden second interview, one from gamer.nl. They got an answer back that is explained in this source.

• "Due to the game revolving around physics, play testers enjoyable to search for hidden bugs."

I think this is a typo, shouldn't it be "play testers enjoyed searching for hidden bugs."?

•  Done.

• Unrelated to the development section, but you may want to nix the caption on the cover art per WP:VGBOX since you don't really need it here. DocFreeman24 (talk) 05:13, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Reception

"with Nintendo Life noting how its results in good replayability"

Small typo as I think it should be "it" instead of "its"

 Done.

"Some like the amount of physical objects"

I would suggest changing to past tense here ("liked") to match the tense used in the rest of the section.

Sometimes I just forget about the tensing.

" Done.

"Eurogamer reviewer Christian Donlan praised the rising complexity of each level, saying how it fit well."

Can you make this sentence a bit clearer? The "it fit well" part doesn't make sense to me. What fit well? And what was it fitting with?

For some reason, my brain had trouble saying "levels got harder" at that time.

 Done.

"Siliconera like the simplistic graphics, calling them colorful and abstracted."

I would suggest changing to past tense here ("liked") along the lines of my other comment above. Also, I would suggest changing "abstracted" to "abstract" as I think it flows more naturally in the sentence structure here as opposed to the sentence structure in the source.

I think this time it was just a typo.

 Done.

"Donlan was fond of how certain tasks are exaggerated, such as oversized photocopiers, and it made him want to smash it through the wall willingly."

I would suggest re-working this sentence as follows to make it easier to follow and to better match nouns and verbs: "Donlan was fond of how certain tasks are exaggerated, such as making it extremely difficult to move an oversized photocopier through a doorway, which increased his desire to smash it through a wall instead."

 Done

"Due to the game releasing during the COVID-19 pandemic, reviewers found it enjoying having fun in an office space, something that they had a lack of during quarantine."

Small typo and I would suggest reworking the sentence this way: "Due to the game releasing during the COVID-19 pandemic, reviewers found it enjoyable to play around in an office space, something that they had missed during quarantine."

I would also remove the citation to the Polygon review here as I don't think it supports the proposition?

A misinterpretation of their first paragraph.

 Done.

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   As mentioned in my overall comment, Nintendo Everything is unfortunately not considered a reliable source by the community per Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources. So you'll need to find a replacement source for those sections.

Additionally the link to the Kotaku review is broken. So please fix that as well.

 Done.

1. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Could you please add a sentence or two regarding how multiplayer works in the Gameplay section? You mention it very briefly but the reader is not told how it works and it comes up in the Reception section as a criticism.

Although there isn't much to say about it, due to the fact that there's just another player, I put some more info.

 Done.

1. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

2. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

3. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

4. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   On hold for now in the hopes that a replacement source can be found for the development section.

DocFreeman24 (talk) 02:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

DocFreeman24, Before I begin...

I wish I could replace the Nintendo Everything source, but I can't. This is an exclusive interview for a game that went under the radar, as in not many sources are talking about this in general. After a brief discussion here, the consensus was "fine, I guess", due to the interview leaning towards the primary source side. I've seen Sergecross73 (now summoned to this discussion, hopefully) mention before that this could be used with caution, and only should be used if the content cannot be replicated elsewhere. Other than one Dutch reference about dealing with different timezones, this is the only source on development I could find. I would like their opinion on this issue before I begin. Panini^🥪 03:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm short on time at the moment but will look into things tomorrow. I'm intrigued by this game in general so I'll try to dig into things some. Sergecross73 msg me 03:25, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Hey Panini!, if there's a consensus that this article is reliable, then I certainly won't be the hold-up here.

That said, there have been four separate discussions regarding Nintendo Everything over the last few years, and each time the issue was raised the consensus was that Nintendo Everything was not a reliable source. And I can see why that conclusion was reached. Looking at their website, there's really very little information about who is running the site, what standards are being applied, whether there is any sort of quality or fact-checking, etc. Looking at the latest top posts, nearly all are written by a "Brian" and no information other than his Twitter page is available as far as I can tell. In this respect, it's difficult to tell how Nintendo Everything differs from a user-generated blog.

So, bottom line, if you can demonstrate that there's consensus for deeming this article reliable, I'll certainly respect that and approve the GA. But I don't feel comfortable making that call on my own given the prior discussions and its inclusion on the unreliable sources list. While I appreciate the talk page discussion you supplied, I don't think it really demonstrates consensus on this, in particular given ImaginesTigers's point about potentially needing to remove this article for GA. DocFreeman24 (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

DocFreeman24, Previous discussions (from what I see) about this only really mention their video game reviews, and is never included because they never have anything unique to say. This is different in my opinion, as it actually is unique, across the internet. I'll wait for Sergecross. Panini^🥪 11:31, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

So here's my thoughts on the matter.

• Nintendo Everything has pretty consistently been considered unreliable.
• Some editors work under the mindset of more leniency when it's strictly an interview - they see it more as handling a WP:SPS/WP:PRIMARY situation. Personally, that's not really my stance, but I've seen it rationalized. GAs usually see more scrutiny on this.
• If you want to stay away from all of that, I did some searching, and saw that the Dutch branch of IGN did a similar interview here. I used Chrome to machine-translate it, and it seemed to touch on some of the same subjects as the Nintendo Everything interview. You could see how much you could source to that.
• Unrelated, but I also found a review by The Verge that could be implemented to the article. They're considered to be a good reliable source, probably a grade or two higher than your NintendoLifes and Nintendo World Reports. Sergecross73 msg me 14:27, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

  Sergecross73, Thanks for the response! I'll work on the changes later today. Panini^🥪 14:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

  (Note: I'm gonna officially begin changes after the DYK (tomorrow), due to the fact that it would be affected.) Panini^🥪 03:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

  DocFreeman24 I don't think the ping worked. Panini^🥪 00:48, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

  Panini!, I got the last ping but thanks. I'll try to take a look today or tomorrow. DocFreeman24 (talk) 01:04, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

  DocFreeman24 That should take care of it. Thanks for the review! Panini^🥪 11:42, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Title font?

Why is the title of this article in a non-standard (for Wikipedia) font? IAmNitpicking (talk) 22:11, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

IAmNitpicking, could you clarify what you mean? Panini^🥪 22:14, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure. See https://www.panix.com/~carlf/files/goodjob.png. Notice that the title font is a nonstandard italic serif font?

Sorry about the wait, I had to devandalize this article .... IAmNitpicking (talk) 22:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

IAmNitpicking, I tried to revert it, but it had to be done manually. That is really odd, but it's not like that on my screen... it's probably just a bug that might pass by. Panini^🥪 22:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

IAmNitpicking, FWIW, like Panini, I don't see any strange font on my screen either. I suspect it may be a bug or some issue beyond our control? DocFreeman24 (talk) 03:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

What's weird is, all other article titles look fine for me. IAmNitpicking (talk) 12:34, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

IAmNitpicking, Maybe ask the Help desk? Panini^🥪 12:47, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

It's interesting. If I look at the page source, the H1 header actually contains italic tags. You don't see the title in italics? OTOH, the wiki markup for Title does not have those tags (or the double-apostrophe).IAmNitpicking (talk) 15:18, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Answered at Wikipedia:Help desk#Article title on Good Job! (game) in italics for me, but not everyone? PrimeHunter (talk) 18:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)