Talk:Gypsy Taub

Arrest

This article contains new information about the subject. Read article, and edit according to your own wishes. I'm not going to spend the time.

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2019/12/20/public-nudity-activist-from-berkeley-charged-with-attempted-abduction-stalking-of-teenage-boy

69.181.106.216 (talk) 10:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I, personally, don't doubt that the arrest occurred. But I have concerns that the source is not sufficiently reliable. And doubly so about the facts underlying the arrest; there are huge WP:BLP concerns. --Weazie (talk) 19:26, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Your precautions are wise, and completely understandable. No other sources, and no verdict or even trial as yet. 69.181.106.216 (talk) 15:26, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Well, here is more news on the arrest and incarceration: https://sfist.com/2020/06/19/noted-bay-area-activist-gypsy-taub-in-jail-for-six-months-on/

Like I said before, you decide what to write. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:558:6045:1:5069:9EB1:8D3B:EF2D (talk) 02:37, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Does WP cover arrests or do we have to wait for a conviction? If she just pleads guilty to some charge, it probably will not make the news. I will be WP:BOLD and add an "Arrest" section. There is a reliable source for this BLP.--Sa57arc (talk) 14:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Note that Berkeleyside and SFist are both reliable sources.--Sa57arc (talk) 05:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

The first is a small local news source and the second is a blog. That would make the information borderline at best for inclusion since it is a serious criminal accusation, and there would need to be consensus to add it. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 05:42, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

It is not WP:NPOV to call SFist a blog. See Talk:Gothamist. You should also mention WP:BLPCRIME on this talk page, not just in your edit comment. As far as your 3RR goes, you failed to work it out on the talk page and you kept citing different policies. I am not interested in an edit war. I want you to explain your policies and guidelines on the talk page. And you revert me so fast. What is your rush? I am willing to wait for consensus and I put comments on the talk page but you refuse to respond and just invoke 3RR. Stop edit warring with me. Use this talk page and cite the WP:RULES here. When was the last times you included "see talk page" in an edit comment? That is what you should be doing. Ask far as your 3RR goes: I am doing the work and making the change. You are the reverter. 3RR applies to you, not me. Just because a source is a small local news source does not mean that they cannot be sued for libel and defamation of character and all that. They are highly motivated to be WP:RS just like the big boys.--Sa57arc (talk) 06:03, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Being a blog in and of itself does not make a site unreliable per WP:NEWSBLOG. See [1][2] However, readding contentious information to a BLP requires consensus, and I'm not sure if this satisfies WP:DUE and WP:PUBLICFIGURE. Morbidthoughts (talk) 09:09, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

I predict that Taub is going to keep up with her activism and some new account of her will mention her status as (likely) a convicted felon. It will not matter if she pled out or went to trial. I guess we will have to wait for that to happen.--Sa57arc (talk) 11:21, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

I created WP:STP as a result of our issues on this article and on Sam Sloan.--Sa57arc (talk) 01:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Berkeleyside is WP:RS

Berkeleyside is a WP:RS. It is just as reliable as The New York Times. Both are ongoing businesses with bank accounts and budgets and offices that they pay rent on and paid reporters and editors and journalistic standards and such. The can both be sued for libel and such. They are both highly motivated to be reliable.--Sa57arc (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

See section below about SFist.--Sa57arc (talk) 01:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Her name is Oxane, not Oxana

The subject is described in the Berkeleyside story as Oxane "Gypsy" Taub. Berkeleyside is a WP:RS. It reflects the shoddy amateur work done here at WP that we got her name wrong as Oxana for so long. Let us at least get her name right and provide a proper cite for it.--Sa57arc (talk) 07:17, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The SF Weekly source says born "Oxane Taub" and the San Francisco Chronicle's SFGate source says "Oxana Chornenky". Given that the sources disagree, it's probably better to leave the name out, but if we were going to go with a source, SFGate would probably be the most reliable source. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 07:32, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The Berkeleyside source says Oxane. It is two WP:RS to one WP:RS. Majority prevails.--Sa57arc (talk) 08:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

On a website she controls Taub writes "My legal name at birth was Oxana Chornenkaya." Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

It does not matter what her birth name was. It matters what her name is now. Her name is now Oxane "Gypsy" Taub and that is how the article should read.--Sa57arc (talk) 01:03, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Of course it matters. Wikipedia biographies routinely mention the birth names of people who have later changed their names. Look at the biography of any movie star, rapper or other entertainer famous under a stage name. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:10, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

This article did get her birth name correct for a long time but a certain contentious editor ripped all that out recently. He also ripped out the SFist source which has been there for a long time. Gypsy is a curious character and now the contentious editor has fallen in love with her and is trying to "protect" her or rather own her by owning this article.--Sa57arc (talk) 01:20, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Sa57arc, it is your behavior that has been contentious more so than any other editor. I recommend that you participate in the ongoing discussion at WP:ANI. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:31, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay dokey. I participated. Now let us get back to the task at hand.--Sa57arc (talk) 02:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

The account has been locked by the Office, but in case a good-faith user would like to follow up, in the Soviet Union in 1969 the name "Oxane" would not have been possible to enter to the birth certificate, only "Oksana" (which is commonly spelled as "Oxana").--Ymblanter (talk) 08:08, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

SFist is WP:RS

SFist is WP:RS. All the same reasons as in the previous section about Berkeleyside.--Sa57arc (talk) 09:53, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

There is a good place to discuss the reliability of sources: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. It has a searchable archive where you often can find earlier discussions about a particular source. Sjö (talk) 14:44, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for contributing to the talk page (unlike you-know-who) and thanks for the tip. I will get right on it.--Sa57arc (talk) 20:16, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The consensus at the noticeboard was, after much heated discussion, that both sources are WP:RS. Both sources should, despite the reverts of a certain contentious editor, go back into the article.--Sa57arc (talk) 01:28, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

These sources cannot be used to defame Taub. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Small,_local_news_sources was not heated, there was not much discussion, and the discussion had only been open less than a day. You don't get to unilaterally declare "consensus reached" as soon as one person agrees with you. Discussions are generally open for much longer than a day. Second, just because editors decide that a source is reliable does not mean anything published by that source must be included in an article; the next discussion would be whether the information in the source is WP:DUE. Schazjmd (talk) 01:49, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Regardless of whether SFist is a reliable source, there are obvious WP:BLPCRIME concerns. --Weazie (talk) 01:58, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Did I rush things? Sorry about that. We can take some more time. I am still waiting the seven days it takes for an AfD to resolve before I take another crack at Sam Sloan.--Sa57arc (talk) 02:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

...and I am trying to sort out those concerns at WT:BLP. Would you like to present your specific concerns here or are you just frustrating consensus by saying the word "concerns" and thus showing how much you care and what a good and highly moral person you are and how you should be an admin too. Please be concrete and specific.--Sa57arc (talk) 05:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Morbidthoughts's concerns as expressed in the above "Arrest" section. And your casting aspersions doesn't improve your position.--Weazie (talk) 19:27, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

David DePape

According to this, he was the best man at her wedding with Smith. Jack Upland (talk) 06:58, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

At this point, I think it's UNDUE/BLP/TOOSOON to cite Taub's relationship to DePape on here on Taub's bio, until we have sources primarily about Taub that mention the relationship. Fine to mention on pages discussing DePape, but it's just guilt by association to Taub. (at this point) Feoffer (talk) 00:43, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Okay, Taub's on record about DePape. Feoffer (talk) 23:55, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

George Davis

We have source here showing that Davis was arrested alongside her and James in February 2013 https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/news/3-arrested-in-protest-against-san-franciscos-nudity-ban/

@Cullen328: in special:diff/1119362808 when you removed what I added to her history regarding her statements about George Davis, you said it was an unreliable source. I'm not sure I understand - the article acknowledges that Gypsy runs "My Naked Truth" so why would the "My Naked Truth" website not be a reliable source regarding the statements which Gypsy made about others? HearthHOTS (talk) 05:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

HearthHOTS, a self published source is only reliable for attributed assertions about that person themself which are not self serving or likely to be challenged. City of birth. High school they graduated from. Stuff like that. If the person has a reputation for lying, even that is unacceptable. According to Verifiability, a core content policy, Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people. We simply cannot use Gypsy Taub's blog or video channel or other online forums for a single word about Davis or DePape or any other living person. It is contrary to policy. Cullen328 (talk) 05:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

If we do find a notable source who reports on some of her words, at that point are we able to cite the primary in association with the secondary? HearthHOTS (talk) 08:12, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:BLP; WP:RS.

Weazie (talk) 18:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Real name

Cullen328 has recently added "born Oxana Chornenky" to the lead [3], with a citation to SF Gate [4]. I am not able to find any other sources with that name, but many sources name her "Oxane Taub", including in legal documents. On a website that Cullen328 described as under her control, until recently it said she was born "Oxana Chornenkaya" [5]. I'm starting this discussion to gain consensus on what to include in the article. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

"Real name" is the wrong heading because what is under discussion is here birth name. Gerald Ford's real name was Gerald Ford, but his birth name was Leslie Lynch King Jr.

Chornenkaya is just the Russian/Ukrainian feminine form of Chornenky. There is no functional difference. Legal documents do not reflect birth name. They reflect her current legal name. Her own website (offline now but I verified it two years ago), plus the SFGate report her birth name as Oxana Chornenkaya/Chornenky. "Oxane Taub" cannot possibly be her birth name although she was known by that name at one time. SFGate says "She met a man named David Taub, and they moved to his hometown of Los Angeles to get married" so Taub is clearly not her birth name. "Oxane" is an Americanized version of the Russian/Ukrainian name Oksana, often spelled "Oxana". Are there any other reliable sources that report a different birth name? Cullen328 (talk) 04:57, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by a "functional difference", but multiple different spellings does matter to verifiability and how we include content on Wikipedia. Considering there is only one source that reports the birth name you are suggesting, I would not agree with including it, as BLP policy is meant to take a conservative approach to including information about living biographical subjects. I also do not think it is helpful to include information in the lead that is not already included in the body of an article, but the sourcing is a more serious concern. I think there is a much stronger case for providing the "Oxane" name that appears to be widely reported in news articles now. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 05:06, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Nikita Khrushchev had three daughters and their surnames were Khruscheva. Yuri Andropov had two daughters and their surnames were Andropova. Boris Yeltsin had one daughter, and her maiden name was Yeltsina. Cullen328 (talk) 05:11, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

"Oxane" is not a Russian name. It is an idiosyncratic Americanization. Cullen328 (talk) 05:11, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

A reliable source says "born Oxana Chornenky," so this article saying exactly that seems fine. There doesn't seem to a prohibition against supply birth names in the lede; Gerald Ford's and Bill Clinton's pages, for example, do exactly that.

Linking "Oxana Chornenky" to "Oxane Taub" (name from her trial) might be helpful, as this article doesn't mention when she adopted "Taub" as a last name. Weazie (talk) 20:25, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Relying on only a single source to make a claim about a person's birth name certainly goes against the spirit of Wikipedia's BLP policy. Almost no information in a BLP should rely on a single source, especially not sensitive information like names. Also, neither of the articles you mention contain information only in the lead about a birth name, as that goes against Wikipedia's MOS. Everything in the lead is supposed to be supported in the main article body. The fact that a birth name that is only found in a single source is being put into the article, while ignoring her apparently current legal name that appears to be widely reported after the Pelosi attack, seems not just unencyclopedic, but stupid. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

We have two sources, not one. I am certainly not arguing to keep "Oxane Taub" out of the article. I am just arguing that we should also include her birth name, which is common practice in Wikipedia biographies. Taub is a surname that she got as a result of one of her marriages. Why is it good practice to exclude her birth name? Cullen328 (talk) 23:27, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I believe it is good practice to exclude claimed names for living people when only one reliable source exists. My issue has always been the sourcing, not anything against including birth names, and your apparent insinuations otherwise seem disingenous and not particularly helpful to productive dialogue. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 23:43, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

The article already mentions somewhat Taub's multiple names, and it might be helpful if the article briefly noted the changes, provided such information can be reliably sourced. Weazie (talk) 02:28, 30 November 2022 (UTC)