Talk:Hunting dog

Working Poodles

I read an article recently about a poodle that earned a hunt test title as well Here it is. To me it is really exciting to see people putting effort into bringing poodle back to the hunting world. As far as I can tell, they exist only among the hunt test crowd (which is not the same as the hunting crowd). As a non-sporting breed they are not permitted into field-trials. This is unfortunate as poodles routinely test a the top of the breed list in intelligence and trainability and have a lot to commend them to the hunter. They are especially good for those with dog allergies. I think, at this point, however, the two or three breeders working toward a working poodle are the exception that proves the rule. If you look in the classifieds in a gun dog magazine, for instance, there are hundreds of ads for dogs of all types. There are no ads for poodles. I have never even read of a hunter (who was not a breeder) actually using a poodle and I have certainly never seen one. Their fluffy coat, produced after decades of selecting for coat traits that are the opposite of the insulating protective coat that would be helpful to a working water dog is a significant hurdle to overcome. Duck hunters are the people who use water dogs and they hunt in cold miserable conditions. I think that the poodle still has a way to go before it become a regular selection of those who have to break ice to provide an entry in the water for their dog. I would be interested to hear if anyone does know someone who hunts a poodle. They well may make it back in the working dog world, but I submit that they are not there yet.--Counsel 19:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It is distressing to see you make blanket statements, such as "they exist only among the hunt test crowd", which are are not true. Just because the typical hunter is a troglodyte (the main reason I have left the sport; you are a singular exception) who would never consider hunting a poodle, does not mean that that they are not being used as such. I'll wager you don't see many ads for Irish Water Spaniels either, and most Labs and Goldens are also not field dogs. Poodles were hunting long before many of these other breeds existed, and as the prejudices against them begin to fall away, you will begin to see more in the field. I was visiting a hospital recently with my dog, and an employee stopped me to tell me of his recent pheasant hunt, last fall, where the guide used two Poodles to flush and retrieve the birds.The Dogfather 16:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I said "as far as I can tell..." first. However, I stand corrected. It is an interesting question. Although, it appears only a few dogs (relatively speaking) are working in this way, there is no getting around the fact that a high percentage of them are successful at it. The working predjudice among hunters is that it takes constant work to maintain hunting genes. Poodles, for the most part, have been bred primarily for other-than-hunting traits for quite a while and seem to have kept a good ability. It certainly calls into question many of the field lines versus working lines arguments (which are prejudice mostly). I think the fact that those dogs that are worked are successful at it is enough to warrant their inclusion. Better to err on the side of over inclusion rather than risk perpetuating an unfounded prejudice. I will email that site you pointed out to see if they will donate a picture to Wikipedia for use on this page. My guess is they will be happy to do so.--Counsel 17:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I do think that the IWS and Golden are worked much more than the poodle today. There is even a regular Golded field trial here in Spokane, but you are certainly right that the vast majority of those dogs are not worked, but are included.--Counsel 17:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a good working poodle pic. And if you would rather use something else, I guess I can understand that. I realize Poodles are not commonly used. Keep in mind that when many of these articles were started there were no pics to be had, so we used what was available. If you look at the histories of some of these dog articles you will see that I myself have gone to various breed enthusiasts to beg for pictures (the IWS comes to mind). So for a latecomer to show up and complain about the choice of pictures, well, I get my dander up a bit about it. Good pictures are hard to come by. If you can get people to donate what is needed, go for it. The Dogfather 05:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Another note, the lady who donated the photo sent a story about her MINIATURE poodle that completed a NAHRA hunt test leg. These are more difficult than the AKC hunt tests (which forbid mini poodles) and she was one of only 6 dogs to complete the leg. There were 8 labs, 2 goldens, and a chessie to compete with. You just never know.--Counsel 06:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, poodles are bread from what the old Water Dog line, all of which were hunting dogs. Back in the 1700's they were a subspecies of dog, Canis aquaticus. The Portuguese Water Dog is another, and definately a hunting dog, although I seem to recall some were used to do water work for fisherman such as fetching net floats. I don't know if a fishing dog would be considered a hunting dog. Usually hunting is held in opposition to fishing. I gather the "curly-cue" coat of a poodle was designed to be hydrodynamic like a short-haired dog, yet long and thick enough to insolate the dog against the cold. The toy poodle is to my experience one of the most coordinated, atheletic, fastest, and high prey-drive of the toy dogs. The contrast with the ancient Chinese lap dogs line. So yes, please persue my leads: google scholar "Canis aquaticus" and "water dog" and "hunting poodle" and the other articles on Wikipedia let us know all about it so we can improve this article with anything about hunting with small poodles. Chrisrus (talk) 05:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

General Organization

I already made comment on some of my issue with this article in the Tables discussion, but I think this article could use some fairly heavy reworking. I mean none of this to disparage any work done as at core, there is some great info here, just it's kinda all mashed up.

• Inconsistent hierarchy in table (see comment added at the end of the Tables discussion)
• some descriptions in tables are too verbose and florid
• descriptions in tables do little to differentiate types (e.g. read the pointer, spaniel, and setter entries pretending you know nothing about dogs)
• the further details just reads like a list of personal pontifications on a few select breeds and has little organization to it.

My suggestions for how to improve this article: Firstly, break up the table and create three sections to the article. Devote a section to hounds, one to gun dogs, and one to others. The introduction in the table to hounds and gun dogs (e.g. "Hounds...[snip]... raccoons, coyotes, and large predators are hunted with hounds.") can be used as the section introduction with each subtype getting a subsection--this incidentally would make dealing with something like water dogs much easier and much more elegant. If so desired, the table can be retained, but just with the hound portion in the hound section, with much more lean descriptions, the gun dogs portion of the table in the gun dogs section, and the rest under other.

This would allow for a much more useful structure to navigate the article (as is, if I want to see what this says about coonhounds, I have to find them in the table, then wade through that at the bottom--or more likely, I'll just click on the link for coonhounds and not ever even bother with what's at the bottom).

Actually, thinking about it, instead of that third section just being "Other", it might be wise to just call it "Small Hunting Dogs", move mention of both the lurcher and curs under hounds (pointing out that they aren't necessarily "hounds" per se) which would give a much more descriptive, albeit somewhat misleading header title to that section. It's an apt title in that feists, terriers, and dachshunds are smaller breeds, but misleading in that breeds like the basset hound can be on the small side too...*shrugs* guess that's why I only make suggestions and don't actually edit pages. 67.142.178.22 (talk) 05:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Why not? I say "go for it: be WP:BOLD! Everything you describe sounds great to me, and if others have even better ideas, let them improve it even further. This is how Wikipedia gets better all the time, everyone has something to contribute. If you need help, ask! Chrisrus (talk) 05:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

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Troll!

Someone has trolled the article! :( Thank god we still have our revisions! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harrym13 (talk • contribs) 21:13, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Hunting Spitz?

What about the hunting Spitz breeds (Laikas, Elkhounds, etc.)? Should we add a section for them? --Canarian (talk) 16:02, 17 October 2018 (UTC)