Talk:Marseille/Archives/2011/October

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Demographics

I'd like to remove the sentence : As a result, the ethnic French are a minority. There is not such thing as Ethnic French. There is more difference between people from Provence and people from the north of France than between them and Italians for instance. But as this might lead to a controversy, I'd like some consensus before doing it. --cperroquin

Without any comment, I will replace the existing chapter on Demographics with this one. I add a table to explain the change in population. Cperroquin 15:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
=== Immigrants ===
Marseille has always been a city of immigrants. In 1900, half of the population is originating from elsewhere ([Italy], [Spain], [Greece] or [Near East]...). As France's largest sea port, Marseille experienced a massive demographic growth as a result of the thousands of immigrants arriving during the 20th century. Italians and Greeks around 1900, [Armenians] after 1915 and 1923, [Russians] in 1917, Spanish after 1936, North-African Arabs and Berbers, notably from Algeria, after the First World War and after 1950, Subsahara Africans after 1950, [Pieds-Noirs] after 1962. Today, many Marseillais are descendants of the waves of immigrants.The largest ethnic groups in the city are Italian who make up 37.5%[1] of the population. Other significant communities include North African Arabs and Berbers (25% of the total population), and Armenians (12.5% of the total population [2]). It is estimated that roughly a quarter of the population are from non-foreign ascendancy. Other significant immigrant groups include people of Turkish, Greek, German and Vietnamese origins. Marseille’s 80,000-strong Jewish community is also said to be the third largest in Europe (France has the largest Jewish community in Europe and the fourth largest in the world, after the United States, Israel and Russia))
Why not just translate what's on the french WP page? It seems to strike the right balance, although the comments on remedies to population decline probably belong in the economy section. It also has 1800 where you have 1900: which is correct? You single out the jewish community - the french WP article describes all religious groups. I think taking a positive attitude is best: Marseille as a "cosmopolitan melting pot" because of its unique pre-eminence as one of the main entry points to France from the south. (Should the many people sans papiers be mentioned?) Just a few random thoughts. To avoid offense, I think talking about the country of origin is better than talking about ethnicity; and all religions should be discussed if judaism is to be mentioned. Here is my slightly amplified translation of the french entry:
Because of its pre-eminence as a mediterranean port, Marseille has always been one of the main points of entry into France. This has attracted many settlers and made Marseille into a unique cosmopolitan melting pot. Already at the end of the 18th century about half the population originated from elsewhere. The main group of immigrants came from Italy (mainly from Genoa and Piedmont) as well as from Spain, Greece and the Middle East.
Economic conditions and political unrest in Europe and the rest of the world brought several further waves of immigrants in the 20th century: greeks and italians started arriving already at the end of the 19th century; russians in 1917; armenians in 1915 and 1923; the spanish after 1936; north africans in the inter-war period;sub-saharan africans after 1945; and the pieds-noirs, from the former french colonies in Algeria, in 1962.
Currently over one third of the population of Marseille can trace their roots back to Italy, the most represented country in the city, even beyond France. Marseille also has the largest Corsican and second largest Armenian population in France. After catholicism, the other major religions practised in Marseille are islam (200,000, a quarter of the population), judaism (80,000, making Marseille the third largest urban jewish community in Europe), [protestantism]] (50,000) and buddhism (10,000).
Mathsci 01:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
100% Agree with you. I was trying to do a mix between existing informations and the French Page... For religion, I've got 600 000 catholics, 150 000 à 200 000 muslims, 80 000 Armenians, 80 000 jews, 20 000 protestants, 10 000 orthodoxes et 3 000 bouddhists. This came from http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/article-imprim.php3?id_article=39997 . I kept ethnicity because of his preeminence in English language but I'm in favor of removing it. Your translation of Levantin in Middle East is subject to controversy... I was using Near East that is quite unusual in English but can't find a better translation... Cperroquin 08:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
If the Middle East is too general, you could say "the Levant", which sounds fine in english. Why not incorporate my translation with your more up to date statistics and references? --Mathsci 09:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Because of its pre-eminence as a mediterranean port, Marseille has always been one of the main points of entry into France. This has attracted many immigrants and made Marseille into a unique cosmopolitan melting pot. Already at the end of the 18th century about half the population originated from elsewhere. The main group of immigrants came from Italy (mainly from Genoa and Piedmont) as well as from Spain, Greece and the Levant.
Economic conditions and political unrest in Europe and the rest of the world brought several further waves of immigrants in the 20th century: greeks and italians started arriving already at the end of the 19th century; russians in 1917; armenians in 1915 and 1923; the spanish after 1936; north africans in the inter-war period; sub-saharan africans after 1945; and the pieds-noirs, from the former french colonies in Algeria, in 1962.
Currently over one third of the population of Marseille can trace their roots back to Italy, the most represented country in the city, even beyond France. Marseille also has the largest Corsican and second largest Armenian population in France. The main religions practised in Marseille are Catholicism (600 000) Islam (between 150,000 and 200,000), Armenian Apostolic Church (80,000), Judaism (80,000, making Marseille the third largest urban jewish community in Europe), Protestantism (20,000), Eastern Orthodoxy (10,000) and Buddhism (3,000).[1]
Et, voilà !, I also moved settlers to immigrants. Cperroquin 17:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Minor changes: armenians -> Armenian Orthodoxism, Eastern Orthodoxy -> Eastern Orthodoxism, 600 000 -> 600,000; otherwise fine (except for some possible errors I made with upper/lower case). Why not substitute this passage with the editorial comment that it now conforms to the more fully researched french page? --Mathsci 22:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Just FYI, the term in English is Orthodoxy not Orthodoxism. Orthodoxism could be seen as pejorative (like Islam, Islamism...). For Armenians, I moved to Armenian Apostolic Church. The use of Orthodoxy for Armenians is subject to controversy. I'm going to update the main page... Cperroquin 13:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm bothered by the listing of "main religions" where Christianity is divided into several branches (and each treated as a different religion?) whereas Islam, Judaism, etc. are not divided (correctly). Perhaps Christianity needs one statistic (as one religion) and then, if it should be divided into sections, another sentence could be introduced to show the divisions? Nolan Belk (talk) 01:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Demographics are out of date. use 2008 statistics perhaps? Alexandre8 (talk) 22:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)