Talk:Oakland Coliseum station

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Transit agency name usage[edit]

From an anonymous contributor: I'm not going to bother to start a revert war with Will74205, but I do hope that others will gradually reintroduce the corrections that I had made. In some cases it's a matter of correct English grammar and in other cases, of usage conventions demonstrated in a transit agency's public materials.

In a sentence beginning "The Amtrak Capitol Corridor's Oakland Coliseum Station...", the article is necessary. (Compare "Amtrak's Philadelphia - 30th Street Station...", where it is incorrect to use the article.) The names "Amtrak" and "Amtrak Capitol Corridor" have different values.

In a sentence beginning "The AirBART shuttle bus and AC Transit bus routes 50 and 805 all run between...", the initial article is necessary. Omitting a definite or indefinite article here is an obvious grammatical error.

With respect to BART (but not necessarily other transit agencies), this possessive construction is common: "BART's <noun>", but this one is never used: "Bay Area Rapid Transit's <noun>". The second construction should be "The Bay Area Rapid Transit District's <noun>". The names "BART" and "Bay Area Rapid Transit" have different values.

And so on...

New Stub Cleanup[edit]

If someone could clean up some of the grammar here I would highly appreciate it, I have to admit I have poor copyediting skills --JVittes 04:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Everything looks good now, should we merge the articles? --Will74205 20:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I was gone on vacation, go ahead have the articles all merged, by redirecting the other two to here, and I'll try to find places to direct link from, as in the BART, the 3 BART line articles, and Capitol Corridor, also Oakland International Airport, and airBART, if any others are found go ahead and direct link. --JVittes 22:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I made an svg map of the general area to make a sample map here [1], the original SVG file is here [2]. Suggestions as to what to do would be appreciated; Will74205 if you wish to edit the SVG map to make a map please go ahead and do so, note that since it still has the layer from google maps as reference it cannot be copied to wikipedia, so I have not done so, but the a png file that does not show it can be. --JVittes 20:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The maps are very impressive!!!!! You should upload the maps yourself, either just to the English Wiki or the Commons. I don't want to take credit from you. What software you used to create/edit these maps? I am not that familiar with graphic editing so you might do a better job, but I would include the Amtrak parking lot and perhaps enlarge the Amtrak platform a little bit. --Will74205 04:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
All I do is make screenshots of the area I want from the map view or hybrid view of the google map version I made http://www.stanford.edu/~jvittes/bayareatransit4.html, once I have the screenshot I want I use Inkscape, I load in the screenshot, then start drawing on top of it. Inkscape is very awesome, available for free at http://www.inkscape.org/, I started using it because that's what the SVG files for the Caltrain and BART pages were made with. It is surprisingly easy to use, I started with wanting to make a map for the ACE commuter train service, I put that one here, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ACE_map_plain.svg, they are easily editable. Png file is now at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Oakland_Coliseum.png, SVG file at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Oakland_Coliseum_plain.svg. Try using Inkscape to edit the SVG files, I think you'll find it quite a useful tool. --JVittes 05:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Excessive detail[edit]

I am attempting to clean up excessive detail, overly wordy sections, and incorrect information. This includes:

  • Rewriting the lede for clarity and to summarize the history
  • General cleanup of the infobox, including a variety of unneeded details like airport icons next to bus numbers and excessive bolding
  • Remove the listing of fares
  • Fix claims that one track is the Coast Subdivision (it is actually all the Niles Subdivision) and that the Coast Starlight only uses Track 1, neither of which are supported by the source
  • Removing a claim about a fence which is supported only by a Google Maps link, and not particularly relevant
  • Copyediting the wordy description of the BART station layout
  • Removing the station layout diagram - this merely duplicates the prose, while greatly increasing the length of the page and possibly interfering with screen readers
  • Removing the table of bus routes that shows destinations and service details. The article should show only the official bus numbers (and official names if they exist, but they appear not to).
  • General citation cleanup - using {{cite web}} and its derivatives for all citations
  • Swapping images and their locations to best illustrate the article (like moving a bus image to the bus connections section)

My proposed version can be seen here. My attempts thus far to implement these changes have been reverted by Titanosaurus, who originally added most of the detail that I find excessive. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 05:59, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Link to discussion at WikiProject Trains. TITANOSAURUS 20:03, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Since dispute resolution failed, I am going to boldly implement changes that should be uncontroversial - either because they unquestionably improve the article, or because they implement sitewide policies like the manual of style and the need for reliable sources. Since these changes have been reverted in the past because I lumped them in with more controversial edits, I am doing to perform them in chunks and explain them more completely than the edit summary here. I am adding {{in use}} while I work; please wait to change anything till I am done working (no more than a couple hours).

Part 1: infobox and lede[edit]

  • line: this is for the physical railway line that a station is located on, not the services (like BART's 5 colored services) which are listed later. I put "BART main line" for now, but I will attempt to add a reliable source for the official name (BART names their sections of track as "S Line" and so on).
  • other: I removed the airport icons because they are not part of the bus numbers in any BART literature - they are only present on the far right side of rollsigns, which are not official names. De-bolded the agency names per MOS:NOBOLD. Removed the poorly formatted reference - it's already cited in the bus connections section. I made the link to Bay Farm Island more useful.
  • bicycle: no need for excess detail; the total number of racks may be worthwhile but dividing by type is unnecessary.
  • opened: removed {{time ago}} - it makes for some awkward formatting with the double parentheses, and the dates are recent enough to not need clarification.
  • rebuilt: Moved the OAK line opening to here, since it was a renovation (expansion) of an existing station rather than a completely new station.
  • route map: This makes more sense with the description of the station layout, where I'll be moving it soon.
  • map_locator: This is duplicative of information present elsewhere in the infobox - the address and the coordinates with map pulldown.
  • lede: Standard copyediting. I will move the citation about the pedestrian bridge to the station layout section. No need to cite that it's the Airport Connector terminus - that's an obvious, uncontroversial fact.

Pi.1415926535 (talk) 05:08, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Part 2: History[edit]

  • Mostly just copyediting to reduce wordiness. A couple statement need citations, which I'll try to dig up later. Added some details about the history of airport connection plans, and cleaned up citations. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 06:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Part 3: Station layout[edit]

  • Images: I'll be moving the bus image to the bus section, and adding the station map as a final edit once I see what the formatting looks like.
  • Sources: Openrailwaymap is a user-editable site; while it's a wonderful resource, it is not a reliable source (and contains errors) and is not an appropriate citation. I have also removed the citation to Nextdoor, which is a neighborhood gossip site.
  • Layout diagram: I moved these into the individual sections to better integrate them with the prose, and to make it more obvious that the Amtrak and BART stations are separate. I removed bolding per MOSBOLD, and some superfluous citations; I also modified widths to reduce the number of line breaks and thus reduce the amount of scrolling required to read the page.
  • Amtrak: General copyediting and citation cleanup. I removed references to the Coast Subdivision - the cited source and other official documents (example) make it clear that contrary to Openrailwaymap's claim, the Coast Subdivision ends at CP NORTH ELMHURST well south of Coliseum.
  • BART: Again, general copyediting; I combined the prose about the main BART and OAK-BART platforms and improved citations.
  • Fencing: I removed this sentence for two reasons. One, it's not relevant - fencing is a normal part of any construction project; it's only worth mentioning when it causes significant issues or is the subject of controversy. Second, neither of the cited documents actually talk about fencing actually being installed on the bridge; they only talk about the general need for fencing of the ROW as a whole, and Google Maps alone is not a reliable source.

Pi.1415926535 (talk) 07:58, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Part 4: Bus connections[edit]

Obviously, this is the most disputed section of the article. I have changed it to what I believe is information agreed on by everyone: an image of bus operations at the station, a list of what bus numbers serve the stop, where buses stop at the station, and that is serves as an important interchange. We can start from there and discuss what does and doesn't belong.

  • I chose an image that shows the whole bus transfer area, rather than a single bus without context, but I'm open to other opinions.
  • I removed the word "vital", which has connotations that make it not an ideal descriptor unless a source uses that word.
  • I removed the reference to the daily ridership of the routes - for the time being - for two reasons. One, the source only gave yearly ridership; trying to translate that into daily ridership (because weekends have different ridership) would be original research. Second, the sources do not establish that all those passengers actually transfer at the station - and the number of bus passengers that actually use the station is what would be important to the article. A source that gives that number would be welcomed.
  • I am not necessarily opposed to having a list with a single bullet item for each bus route, including the default terminals. However, details like part-time terminals and alternate routings are service information that may belong on List of AC Transit routes, but do not belong in an article about a station that those routes happen to stop at. This article is about the station, not about the services that run to it. (It's no different from putting information about Capitol Corridor stopping patterns, and what railway lines it runs on, in the Capitol Corridor article rather than here). I also am very wary about putting the information in a table - it takes up more space than a list, is more difficult to edit, and less convenient for screen readers, but doesn't actually add to the quality of the information being presented. Form should folllow function.

Pi.1415926535 (talk) 08:55, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Part 5: images and final cleanup[edit]

  • Moved commons category to the right to reduce whitespace
  • Added separate coordinates for Amtrak platform
  • Re-added the SVG map
  • Removed "See also" that's already linked in a footer template
  • Modified caption for infobox image
  • Citation for some history - the last

While I understand that not everyone is going to be happy with every single change I have made, hopefully these explanations make clear why I have made these changes, and where they can be improved upon and why I have removed some information and citations. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 09:20, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Further discussion[edit]

I am going to likewise make some changes of my own, and here is an explanation for each of the changes I am going to make:
  • line: Per Template:Infobox station, the line section is supposed to display the name of the passenger services stopping at the station, not the physical line that it is located on, so I am going to re-add the service information.
  • other: The airport logo is not only used on bus signs, it is also used on all Oakland Airport-bound bus stops along routes 73 and 805 as an official indication that both services go to the airport, I will link to a picture of a bus stop used by both bus services to prove this if necessary.
  • map_locator: The map should be included with the article as it allows readers to easily understand where exactly the station is in Oakland without having to unnecessarily leave the page.
  • Sources: I am not going to re-add my sources at this moment, but I may in the future, and I would like to add a couple of notes on your statement. OpenRailwayMap is peer-reviewed and used by rail and tech companies around the world. Your new acerail.com source that you just displayed is perfectly fine and something I won't dispute, but your original "government source" was pretty questionable as it was in fact composed by a outside subcontractor, and even said that it shouldn't be used a definitive representation of the physical layout of the line in the very beginning of it, but I will otherwise leave it alone as I at least find its track layout information to be accurate. My NextDoor sourcing focused on the well-researched mapping aspect of the site, not the "gossiping", and if you were to compare the neighborhood maps on that website to similar maps on Google Maps and City-Data, you would find them to be very similar, albeit more detailed than the latter two. TITANOSAURUS 02:38, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Nope, nope, maybe, and absolutely nope. I am about to revert two of your edits as disruptive - especially since you cannt be bothered to provide edit summaries as you are supposed to.
  • The description on {{infobox station}} is dated and no longer correct. @Secondarywaltz:, I believe you may be able to give more details about it. Correct current usage is the physical railway line.
  • The airport logo is still not the official name of the route; bus stop signs are not a reliable source. Give a reliable source for them being part of the official names, because they sure aren't shown with airport logos on the AC Transit website - and the rollsigns and stops only show the airport logo in the airport-bound direction.
  • The dropdown map in the coordinates does not require leaving the page - so what benefit does the awkward map_locator actually give? You need to stop repeating information in multiple places on the same page.
  • ORM is only peer-reviewed in the sense that Wikipedia is; it absolutely fails the basic qualifications as a reliable source. Evidence for it being peer reviewed? Don't confuse "used as a quick unofficial lookup" with "used as a definitive reference". It is rife with errors and incomplete data; go talk to WP:RSN to get explained to since you refuse to listen to me. And yet you doubt an official government report because it was produced by a contractor? I haven't the foggiest idea what purpose NextDoor possibly serves as a citation in the first place. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:59, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Until you can actually prove, and not speculate, that the infobox is supposed to display the physical line, it should be displayed as is, otherwise you're the one being disruptive. Bus stop signage and bus "roll sign" information are both officially administered by AC Transit, that is as official and reliable as it gets and doesn't need an "reliable online" source to reinforce its credibility as both routes end at Oakland Airport and the usage of the logo makes sense. Regardless, perhaps I should source a report compiled by a subcontractor that proves this anyways? I will do whatever I think keeps our readers in the light, and the coordinates links unnecessarily require readers to go to GeoHack to look at a map of the station when one can simply be presented on the page in the infobox. To generally compare OpenRailwayMap with Wikipedia like that is just lazy and shows a lack of knowledge of that website, anonymous IP addresses cannot edit OpenRailwayMap like Wikipedia, and any edit made must be approved by reviewers before it is published, however, OpenRailwayMap does absolve itself of any liability in the event that it displays wrong information, not unlike your original "government report". TITANOSAURUS 03:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
You do realize that clicking on the little globe pulls up an overlay map, right? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 03:30, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
The map isn't displaying properly on my desktop (502 gateway error), and the globe doesn't appear on mobile versions of the website so I cannot confirm this. Regardless I will then assume good faith and remove the map under the impression that the map just doesn't work on my end. TITANOSAURUS 03:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
You're correct. I've put out a talk page notice, but until that issue is fixed I've re-added the map locator. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 03:50, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

@Titanosaurus: The documentation for Infobox station was outdated; it's a relic from when the services section didn't exist, plus some ambiguity (since resolved) about the difference between a line and a service. Another outgrowth of that discussion was the maintenance of separate {{infobox rail line}} and {{infobox rail service}} templates. Line should not be a restatement of service. Best, Mackensen (talk) 13:59, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

@Mackensen: What I am trying to find out and what I have been asking Pi.1415926535 is where and when was this exactly discussed, I see a mention of the "services" field on the page, but the field doesn't work when I try to apply it to the page, and I see no discussion on the talk page that details what goes into that field, nor the "line" field. TITANOSAURUS 17:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
I doubt that there was one single central discussion; there often isn't for that kind of thing. Usage evolved over time. Mackensen (talk) 13:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
I see, so the physical line goes into the line field, while the services are displayed on the bottom, got it, I will revert my edit to that field and make it display the physical line that it's on again. TITANOSAURUS 17:38, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Request for comments on bus table inclusion[edit]

The consensus is against adding the proposed table. Editors found that adding the table would be excessive detail for this article.

Cunard (talk) 08:42, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the "Bus service" section have a table that is somewhat similar to the one seen in good articles Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue and Flushing–Main Street? AC Transit views the station as one of its major transit centers, serving 12 routes (most of which are feeder routes terminating at the station) that carry over 2 million passengers a year combined (Source 1 for that statement, starts at Page A-1) (Source 2 for that statement, Page 20). My recent attempt at clarifying this issue using the dispute resolution process failed due to a lack of participation, so hopefully this process can finally bring me some clarification for the future. TITANOSAURUS 01:58, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

  • Absolutely not. This article is about the transit station, not about the routes that serve it. Period. It doesn't matter if this is the busiest bus station in the world; the article is still about the station. The routes are only important as far as they relate to the station - thus, the article should include a simple listing of the routes (wikilinked to List of AC Transit routes as appropriate) and a mention of where the bus loading area is. It should not include detailed terminal information, hours of service, and other information that is fundamentally about the bus services. Plus, a table takes up more space than a list, is more difficult to edit, and less convenient for screen readers - but doesn't actually add to the quality of the information being presented. The two GAs linked are also substantially longer than this article - so their (still unnecessary) bus tables take up a less substantial part of the article.
The claim about the bus ridership is deceptive, as it doesn't tell how many riders actually transfer at the station. The bus stop in front of my house serves bus routes totaling 22,500 riders per day (triple that of Coliseum); should it have its own article with a detailed list of routes and their service details? Of course not - it's literally a painted band on a pole, with maybe a few dozen boardings per day. The ridership of the services is irrelevant to the article about the station. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:34, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
I will be willing to compromise and only include the routes and destinations, just like how the platform layout diagram lists only each of the services at the station and their respective destinations. As for your other points, is the stop near your house recognized by your local public transit agency as one of its major transfer points? Are the population numbers of your city similar to Oakland's? Does the bus agency carry around the same amount of riders as AC Transit? TITANOSAURUS 02:50, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
  • No. That's an excessive level of detail for an individual station article. Wikipedia is not a timetable, though sometimes it winds up looking like one. I agree with Pi.1415926535 that the number of passengers the routes carry isn't relevant to the article itself. Also, had I been the reviewer, I would have been reluctant to pass Flushing–Main Street (IRT Flushing Line) with that table taking up a third of the article's length. Mackensen (talk) 13:46, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
I (along with AC Transit and BART) consider the station to be more of an intermodal transit hub between four different modes of transportation and four transportation providers. Why would a list that displays where each route goes from the station be more acceptable than the simple, well-formatted table that I am proposing? Flushing-Main Street was an example, but the table in the Coney Island page is more towards what I am going for. TITANOSAURUS 18:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
If some of you are so convinced that bus routes shouldn't be added, maybe Hempstead (LIRR station) should be unmerged from Rosa Parks Hempstead Transit Center. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 21:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Insert:::::As can be seen on that article, the bus table has been posted for update since Nov. 2017. Basic problem of keeping data accurate. WP is not the transit service.Parkwells (talk) 15:55, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
@DanTD: would you support the inclusion of the table here if I were to perhaps also remove the references in the "Routes" column and/or make the font even smaller so it doesn't take as much space? The content on the Hempstead page is very similar to the content I would like to be displayed on this page. Hempstead and Coliseum are both important intermodal transportation centers within the areas that they serve, and I believe that bus ridership at both stations compares well to rail ridership, although the Coliseum page doesn't really reflect this as much as the Hempstead page does. TITANOSAURUS 19:42, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes, but collapsed The examples linked to are very busy, so I'd be reluctant to endorse their addition to the article without being collapsed using something like Template:Hidden. We do have comparable information about train services on UK articles and that can become quite ungainly, see London Waterloo station § Services for example, which is very long. It's probably worth avoiding in that much detail by default on such major interchanges (and even maybe more well-served stations like my local station Woking), whereas more minor stations, such as Weybridge, are less overwhelming. I think I broadly support the information being present (as it's useful and often not compiled together elsewhere) but collapsed by default. — OwenBlacker (talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:02, 4 February 2018 (UTC) summoned by robot
@OwenBlacker: List of AC Transit routes is where the list of information like the terminals of routes is compiled - as it is an article about the bus routes, not about a station they happen to serve. Including that information on this station article is merely duplication. (Note that AC Transit also has extremely detailed schedules and route maps, making it even less necessary for it to be on Wikipedia.) A collapsible table is disallowed for accessibility reasons - see MOS:DONTHIDE. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
@Pi.1415926535: I did not realise collapsing tables by default caused an accessibility problem. Thank you for having pointed it out to me. — OwenBlacker (talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 21:15, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • No, just no.

This is supposed to be an article about the station, not an auxillary timetable/help guide for the transport company. Total waste of WP server space. The prose about how to buy tickets is irrelevant and crosses into promotional tone. There is too much detail in some parts, such as describing the side the doors open on. That's not within the scope of the article or Wikipedia. See WP:FAN. I'm surprised no-one has brought out their hatchet and stickytape yet. I can tell the prose is good faith but it needs seriously thinning down, not expanding. Cesdeva (talk) 13:23, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

@Cesdeva: Why is showing where the rail services at as station (as seen in this article that I noticed you edited: Kuri railway station) go within the scope of Wikipedia, but not where the bus routes go? They are both modes of transportation that serve the station, and the article is about a station that is an intermodal transit center served by multiple modes of transportation that are all pretty much equally important to the complex's purpose in my opinion. Are you trying to say that the rail information is that much more important than the bus information? If so, why? I also see how you linked to WP:FAN, did you check out my links to other peer-reviewed good articles that display similar information? Is the table a violation of WP:FAN, or is it an essential part of a good article? TITANOSAURUS 00:18, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
I do think the GAs are out of scope and belong on Wikivoyage. Route numbers etc aren't relevant to the station, regardless of transport method. Providing examples from other articles similar to your proposition won't further your cause very much. Editors are wary of systematic judgement errors that occur from blindly copying ideas from other articles without establishing a strong, reasoned and local consensus. I think there is a bias towards hard-wired and long established (thus impactful and written extensively about) railway routes vs flexible, soft-linked bus routes. That didn't affect my reasoning in this rfc however. I was brought here by Legobot not because I've had a burning fatwā against this issue. My past selective editing has nothing to do with this. Regards, Cesdeva (talk) 11:02, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
@Cesdeva: Route numbers are relevant to the station, in fact, there is a field in the station infobox that is exactly designed to display such information, that is not really what I am trying to discuss, what I am trying to discuss is the extent to which the route numbers or what not are relevant to the station. I likewise don't think that this a matter of judgment per se. As you can see in the peer-reviewed, GA-rated articles that I have linked to (among many other rail station articles on here), a strong consensus has in fact been reached in the past on this subject that appears to be more in line with my point of view. What I am trying to discuss and figure out here is whether that consensus has changed since that information has been added to those articles, and if so, why it has changed. Otherwise, I appreciate you thoroughly explaining your point of view and somewhat clarifying the other side of this issue for me, and I have nothing else to add at this time. TITANOSAURUS 00:32, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
  • No, it's not encyclopedic. Put it in Wikivoyage, not here. Kaldari (talk) 06:02, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
  • No, this article has gotten much too technical with all the data about routes; it is supposed to be an encyclopedia article about the station, not serve as a substitute timetable. I appreciate the great effort put into making the bus table, but think this is the wrong place for it. I am amazed that the GA articles allowed such information; I think they are listing badly to the overly technical side as well, as if the more information the better. They should have been edited to get back to basics. Not all complete information serves the reader. No user is going to use WP to check bus routes, but would go directly to transit information. Who is going to maintain data on bus routes, if they change?Parkwells (talk) 15:50, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • No, visiting the website for accurate timetables is much easier. :) Lotje (talk) 14:55, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
  • no per above and MOS talk page archive 200. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 03:23, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out that discussion to me, as evidenced by the rather slow reaction to this request for comments, it seems like a lot of Wikipedia is simply confused on this issue at the moment judging by the consensus reached for the two train station articles I linked to and all of the airport articles on here versus the consensus being reached on this type of content for this article. Maybe a site wide consensus will be reached one day, maybe not, not something I really care about, but good to know for the future. TITANOSAURUS 05:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • The status of the bus list as of this writing seems okay to me. A small chart might also be acceptable, but if you want more details on those buses, just link the route numbers to a list of bus routes. Or put the more detailed version in Wikivoyage. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 05:24, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.