Talk:Princess Isabella of Parma

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By modern standards...[edit]

...would it be fair, then, to consider Isabella Maria to have been a lesbian? DS 01:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the very first sentence of lesbian uses the word "exclusively", so I would say that no, we couldn't count her a lesbian, since we have no evidence (or at least, there's none presented in the article) that she wasn't also attracted to men. We certainly have evidence, though, that she had sexual relations with men. Binabik80 02:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, this article presents somewhat of a skewed impression—it was not uncommon for women (and, at times, even men) to speak of familial love in such terms in those days—in modern English, the expressions used have a different connotation. Such language was often used to show religious love for God, as well. Take St. John of the Cross' poem "Dark Night of the Soul", which refers to his relationship with God as that of between "lover" and "beloved one." (Though he was Spanish, the idiomatic usage carries equally into the English of his day, and some time after) The Jade Knight 03:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Quite. Is there any indication that this expression of love had any sexual element? -- ALoan (Talk) 10:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
None whatsoever, to my knowledge. The Jade Knight 18:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
A claim that Isabella Maria was lesbian or bisexual needs to be sourced. Pending that, I will remove the category from the article. Thuresson 10:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Adding sexual orientation category to this biography may be a WP:CAT/R#Sexuality violation[edit]

WP:CAT/R#Sexuality For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate. For example, while some sources have claimed that William Shakespeare was gay or bisexual, there is not a sufficient consensus among scholars to support categorizing him as such. Similarly, a living person who is caught in a gay prostitution scandal, but continues to assert their heterosexuality, can not be categorized as gay. Categories that make allegations about sexuality – such as "closeted homosexuals" or "people suspected to be gay" – are not acceptable under any circumstances. If such a category is created, it should be immediately depopulated and deleted. Note that as similar categories of this type have actually been attempted in the past, they may be speedily deleted (as a G4) and do not require another debate at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion. User: Pgarret (talk) 01:44, 12 September 2012 (UTC).

We need reliable sources for category claims. It may well be that such sources are indeed available and you can list them in the article - but if not, then who is saying that these people fit the bill? Just deciding that you think they fit the description is Original Research - and that's not allowed here. I need to see a few reliable little blue number in each categorization that links to a reference document that can be examined to confirm Basic Academic rigour

Most people that are listed in the misleading LGBT categorization can also be connected with the following:
-Heteroflexibility -is a form of a sexual orientation or situational sexual behavior characterized by minimal homosexual activity despite a primarily heterosexual sexual :orientation that is considered to distinguish it from bisexuality.
-Pansexual- A person who is fluid in sexual orientation and/or gender or sex identity.
-Polyamory- is the practice of having multiple open, honest love relationships.
-Affectional orientation - To holders of this view, one's orientation is defined by whom one is predisposed to fall in love with, whether or not one desires that person sexually
-MSM- are male persons who engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex, regardless of how they identify themselves; many men choose not to (or cannot for other reasons) accept sexual identities of homosexual or bisexual.
-Situational sexual behaviour is sexual behavior of a kind that is different from that which the person normally exhibits, due to a social environment that in :some way permits, encourages, or compels those acts.
Many people change their sexual behavior depending on the situation or at different points in their life.[1] For example, men and women in a university may engage in bisexual activities, but only in that environment. Experimentation of this sort is more common among adolescents (or just after), both male and female. Some colloquialisms for this trend include "heteroflexible",[2] "BUG" (Bisexual Until Graduation), or "LUG" (Lesbian Until Graduation).[3]
Sexual orientation
A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states, "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time".[4] "There . . . [was, as of 1995,] essentially no research on the longitudinal stability of sexual orientation over the adult life span. . . . [I]t [was] . . . still an unanswered question whether . . . [the] measure [of "the complex components of sexual orientation as differentiated from other aspects of sexual identity at one point in time"] will predict future behavior or orientation. Certainly, it [was] . . . not a good predictor of past behavior and self-identity, given the developmental process common to most gay men and lesbians (i.e., denial of homosexual interests and heterosexual experimentation prior to the coming-out process)."[5]
Kinsey scale
Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale,[6] attempts to describe a person's sexual history or episodes of his or her sexual activity at a given time. Ituses a scale from 0, meaning exclusively heterosexual, to 6, meaning exclusively homosexual.


The great source in question is based on a esteemed scholars research? Professor? What chair does he hold? Which University? Is he known for his scholarly work's or research on late 18th century Austrian history. Is he such an authority that he can pronounce something as veritable fact. Michael Farquhar is the journalist specializing in history (Farquhar, Michael (2001). A Treasury of Royal Scandals: The Shocking True Stories. Not source material.

What does the WP article say:
- She and Joseph's sister Archduchess Maria Christina wrote letters to each other:
-"I am writing you again, cruel sister, though I have only just left you. I cannot bear waiting to know my fate, and to learn whether you consider me a person worthy of your love, or whether you would like to throw me into the river.... I can think of nothing but that I am deeply in love. If I only knew why this is so, for you are so without mercy that one should not love you, but I cannot help myself.". In a different letter she wrote: "I am told that the day begins with God. I, however, begin the day by thinking of the object of my love, for I think of her incessantly.".
Is this it? No proper scholarly commentary? Is Princess Isabella of Parma lesbian now? PURE SPECULATION..
User: Pgarret (talk) 11:04, 12 September 2012 (UTC).
Agree, remove unsourced material that make claims regarding the subject's sexual preferences. Thuresson (talk) 23:35, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Disagree. There are two sources that support such a categorisation, and none that contest it. Why are you so confident i is wrong? Contaldo80 (talk) 11:15, 26 February 2013 (UTC)


  1. ^ Rosario, M., Schrimshaw, E., Hunter, J., & Braun, L. (2006, February). Sexual identity development among lesbian, gay, and bisexual youths: Consistency and change over time. Journal of Sex Research, 43(1), 46–58. Retrieved February 8, 2011.
  2. ^ Thompson, E.M.; Morgan, E.M. (2008). ""Mostly straight" young women: Variations in sexual behavior and identity development". Developmental Psychology. 44 (1): 15–21. PMID 18194001. doi:10.1037/0012-1649.44.1.15. 
  3. ^ See for instance "Campus Lesbians Step Into Unfamiliar Light" New York Times, June 5, 1993
  4. ^ "ARQ2: Question A2 – Sexual Orientation". Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. Retrieved 2007-08-28. 
  5. ^ Gonsiorek, John C., Randall L Sell, & James D. Weinrich, Definition and Measurement of Sexual Orientation (feature), in Suicide & Life – Threatening Behavior (N.Y.: Guilford (ISSN 03630234)), vol. 25 (prob Suppl), 1995, p. 40 or 40 ff. (prob. pp. 40–51) ((ProQuest (ProQuest document ID 7736731) (Text Only)) (Full Text), as accessed Mar. 20, 2010 (alternative document URL (prob. also in PsycINFO) (abstract <>, as accessed Mar. 17, 2010, or
  6. ^ "Kinsey's Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating :Scale". The Kinsey Institute. Retrieved 8 September 2011. 

Relationship with sister-in-law[edit]

'The princess spent most of the time in the Viennese court not with her husband, but with his sister, Archduchess Maria Christina... in what seemed to be a romantic lesbian affair... Both were united not only by his interest in music and art but also by a deep mutual love.'

His interest in music? Who is 'he'? (maybe mis-translated from German) Valetude (talk) 04:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree there's a typo error. Suggest we chage to "an" rather than "his". Contaldo80 (talk) 12:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC)