Talk:Republic of Ireland/Archive 21

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Joining the EU a stage of independence from the UK?

Can someone explain why Ireland joining the European Union in 1973 is listed as a "stage of independence from the United Kingdom"? Iamdmonah (talk) 10:13, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

No, I can't explain why. It was added on 22 December 2016 by Frietjes without any edit summary. Maybe nobody just noticed it, or maybe it was discussed somewhere and it's archived now. Scolaire (talk) 20:58, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Scolaire, if you check that edit, I just moved the |accession_EU_date= which was presumably deprecated or unsupported to a supported parameter (most likely correcting a parameter error). as far as I can tell |accession_EU_date= was never supported by the infobox. Frietjes (talk) 21:06, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Anyway, it is wrong. Stages of independence is already an oddity in the infobox, but it ends long before EEC membership. I suggest just take this item out. SeoR (talk) 09:19, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Date of independence is a standard inclusion in country infoboxes (or other status attainment for non-country usage), but I would agree EEC membership does not fit. CMD (talk) 09:24, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware the stages of independence is included in most country infoboxes. Sorry if I appeared to have said otherwise. Anyway, joining the EU (or EEC as it was known back then) in my view is wrong. So it should be removed from the article. And it would appear that most editors here agree. Iamdmonah (talk) 16:58, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

"It was officially declared a republic in 1949"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The discussion ended – twice! Five months apart! Any new discussion can take place in a new thread

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I know that this broad topic has been extensively discussed before but it seems to have escaped notice that this (compromise?) text (It was officially declared a republic in 1949) is logical nonsense. The text should read either

1. It was officially described a republic in 1949 [because the Act says so] or
2. It was declared a republic in 1949 [because secondary sources say so, therefore not 'officially'].

Is there a convincing reason to retain the current erroneous text? --Red King (talk) 08:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes. It effectively became a republic in 1937, but not officially until 1949. "Officially described" is the kind of silly language we have been trying to get rid of for over ten years. The continuing obsession among some people with the wording of the 1948 Act is tiresome in the extreme. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. "Officially declared" is an accurate representation of what happened on Easter Sunday 1949, per the reliable sources. Scolaire (talk) 18:16, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point. First, in the absence of an explicit Act it Amendment to the Constitution, there is no explicit official declaration.

Second, you are absolutely correct that, by repealing the External Relations Act, it did indeed effectively become indisputably a republic at that moment. That is what the RSs say.

So getting to the point: the word 'officially' is inaccurate and redundant and IMO should be deleted. Who needs it? Why? --Red King (talk) 23:39, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

We need it because there is an important difference between "effectively" and "officially". This difference meant that Ireland's status was ambiguous between 1937 and 1949. That is the subject of a Wikipedia article, Head of state of Ireland (1936 to 1949), as you know. The ambiguity was caused by the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act 1936, which made the king the head of state for certain purposes. Section 1 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 repealed that act, thus making Ireland unambiguously a republic when the act came into force on Easter Sunday, 1949. This is described in multiple reliable sources as a "declaration of a republic". Per WP:SKYISBLUE those sources mean that the declaration of a republic was official; it wasn't Pat O'Sullivan in Kenmare saying "Well, I declare! We're a republic now." Your first point is a straw man: a declaration of a republic does not require any Act to amend the constitution, unless the constitution states that it is not a republic. Scolaire (talk) 10:06, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

In fact, you could say (though I don't propose putting it in the lead), that it was unofficially declared a republic by John A. Costello in Ottawa in 1948, and the subsequent legislation made it official (see this Irish Times article, for instance). Scolaire (talk) 11:20, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

My understanding was of the word official is either (a) an Act of the Oireachtas (b) an amendment to the Constitution or (c) a formal statement by the Taoiseach to the Dáil, ex cathedra if you like, peferably with a debate and ideally a vote. Clearly the consensus has decided otherwise.

I can see that this is going nowhere. End of discussion. --20:55, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

User:Red King - I’ve been over all of this ground before. And I think with User:Scolaire. User:Scolaire’s position is that Ireland was part of His Majesty’s dominions despite having a constitution which was republican (teh same one it has today). I think that might be yours too. John A. Costello was mentioned by Scolaire just there. His views on the topic were very clear. All on the record. He did not consider that Ireland was part of His Majesty’s dominions at the time... This is how the office of the President of Ireland describes what happened on the day the ROI Act cam into force:

"President of Ireland @PresidentIRL
#OnThisDay in 1949 the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, signed into law by President Seán T. Ó Ceallaigh on 21 December 1948, came into force, formally ending the statutory role of the British monarchy in Ireland." Nothing at all about becoming a republic. That’s because that’s not Ireland’s legal view of what happened. It woudl be far more honest to explain in the article that Irish law and UK law conflict on what happened. Irish law is very clear that Ireland was not part of His Majesty’s dominions at the time (no ambiguity). UK law is equally clear to the contrary. International law is debatable, because there is no judgment on the point. Frenchmalawi (talk) 03:01, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

My position is not that Ireland was part of His Majesty’s dominions. My position is as stated above: that Ireland effectively became a republic in 1937, but not officially until 1949. The 1948 Act removed the legal ambiguity caused by the 1936 Act by removing the remaining powers of the king. In reliable sources this is described in terms of Ireland officially declaring a republic. It would be feasible "to explain in the article that Irish law and UK law conflict on what happened" as long as reliable secondary sources were produced explicitly stating that this is the case, in sufficient numbers to give it due weight. --Scolaire (talk) 16:28, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Rephrasing your statement: “My position is as stated above: that Ireland was officially part of His Majesty’s dominions until 1949.” Because if Ireland was not part of His Majesty’s dominions, Ireland was a republic. If Ireland was part of His Majesty’s dominions, Ireland was not a republic.

As to “In reliable sources this is described in terms of Ireland officially declaring a republic.”. Did you and I go over this all before or was it on something else? I cannot remember exactly. About a year ago? Anyway:

I have given you one source: the President of Ireland whose statement most certainly is at odds with the notion that Ireland “declared a republic”.

Here are some more:

The 1937 Bunreacht na hÉireann is the REPUBLICAN CONSTITUTION which is the longest continuously in operation within the European Union (EU).”<ref>“Marie-Luce Paris;Popular Sovereignty and the Use of the Referendum – Comparative Perspectives with Reference to France; UCD publications, 2012”

“Cover note dated 23 April 1938 for a memorandum by John Hearne, the legal advisor to the Department of External Affairs who was primarily responsible for drafting the 1937 Irish constitution. The memo itself outlined some of the implications of the new constitution for the 1936 Act: ‘SO CLEARLY AND COMPLETELY IS THE NATIONAL CONSTITUTION A REPUBLICAN CONSITUTION that, if no provision had been made in it validating the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936, in relation to the National Constitution, that statute would have lapsed, and legislation, even in the tenuous terms of that statute, would have been impossible. I hold that, so long as any prospect remains, of securing national unity on the basis of the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936, it would have been wrong to invalidate it altogether and thus deprive any Government which might be in office of that method of approach to the solution of the problem of national unity. The Constitution was designed to promote national unity not to prevent it’. To some degree, the retention of a link to the Commonwealth was seen as providing a possible basis for Irish unity in the future. (P150/2345. Papers of Éamon de Valera.)”

“[i]n invoking as prominently as [the 1937 Constitution] does some signal precepts of Catholic natural-law theology, the republican constitution invested in an act of recovery from a tradition that long antedated the much more recent celebration of popular sovereignty.” Constitutional Revolution

By Gary Jeffrey Jacobsohn, Yaniv Roznai; Yale University Press 2020

Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:20, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Frenchmalawi, I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. I'm going to leave this discussion before my head explodes. Scolaire (talk) 13:13, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, that’s not very scholastic of you User:Scolaire! Come on, you’re better than that. Why don’t you just address the first point anyway? OK, here’s another way of putting it to you. You have said: “My position that.. Ireland effectively became a republic in 1937, but not officially until 1949”. So please can you put a description on exactly what Ireland officially was between 1937 and 1949? This is your point; not mine. You are the one saying that Ireland was not officially a republic in the 12 years in question. I’m simply asking you to address what it was then. I am guessing that perhaps your answer is that Ireland was in the Commonwealth during those 12 years. If that is so, you need to explain what being in the Commonwealth meant during the 12 years in question as the Commonwealth of then and the Commonwealth of the period in question are entirely different beasts! Anyway, I get ahead of myself. My question is just for you, as I’ve set out here. Frenchmalawi (talk) 22:01, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Ireland is again quickly ascending league tables comparing wealth and prosperity internationally"

This line from the lead does not read encyclopedically. 98.143.79.179 (talk) 18:02, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. As no other thoughts have been forthcoming, I have removed. Guliolopez (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Add Ulster-Scots name for Ireland.

Add Ulster-Scots name for Ireland. It’s “Ulster-Scots: Airlann [ˈɑːrlən])”. 73.200.216.88 (talk) 00:00, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done It's not an official language in the Republic, or widely spoken. DrKay (talk) 01:47, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Lede points re economics

We need to get the sentence dealing with the “Leprechaun” aspect of Ireland’s GDP clear. Three version worked through, hoping it gets there. The next sentence also does not fully work, the bit around “standard deviation” - could thus be meant to be “standard definition”? Important as this is a controversial, statistics-distorting issue, known globally. Avoiding emotive tone, of course - these topics do get people going. SeoR (talk) 08:58, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi. I think "distortion" works fine. Doesn't cause potential confusion with "inflation". Isn't "emotive". Ticks the boxes. Guliolopez (talk) 12:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Tags

This article to be missing from the IrlProj list of articles. Is there a reason for this? Seems odd. Sarah777 (talk) 22:47, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Actually no, it's not missing. Did you miss the banner "This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects near the top of the page?" Did you not click on the blue "show" button on the right side? It's right there for you. ww2censor (talk) 00:01, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Edit request 2 August 2020

Change "Ireland, also known as Republic of Ireland" to "Republic of Ireland, commonly known as Ireland". The article title should appear first, then the commonly recognised name. --Soumya-8974 ^talk _contribs ^subpages 09:57, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

The above-mentioned convention may be found on South Africa, India, etc. --Soumya-8974 ^talk _contribs ^subpages 10:02, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Soumya-8974: You probably need to read Names of the Irish state in detail as to what the constitution states. ww2censor (talk) 10:48, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Soumya-8974 the official name of the country is just “Ireland”. One word. I know it’s confusing the way the article is given the wrong name on Wikipedia. Frenchmalawi (talk) 10:08, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

This need to be changed to reflect the name of the country. Calling it the "republic of Ireland" is board line derogatory. Josyban (talk) 18:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Josyban, you need to read the hatnote relating to any change of name discussion by order of the Arbitration Committee. It has been discussed many times at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration and its archives since at least 2009 and has not happened. ww2censor (talk) 00:11, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

It's not derogatory, it's the official description of the country (though not the name). You may want to talk to the Republic of Ireland football team if its derogatory. Canterbury Tail talk 15:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Calling Ireland "the republic of Ireland" is about as non-derogatory as calling the United Kingdom "England", and even less accurate. If you're ok with the "republic of" Ireland, then I suggest that out of good will you change every United Kingdom mention to "England". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.43.182.89 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 3 May 2021

That's what's called a false equivalence, and the two sides of your argument are completely not the same thing. Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are the same thing, it's even in Ireland's laws, namely the Republic of Ireland Act that Republic of Ireland is the official description of the state of Ireland and used by the government. So yes Republic of Ireland is a completely valid term for the country of Ireland. England and United Kingdom aren't the same thing, have never been the same thing, aren't equated to the same thing and no one thinks they're the same thing. Canterbury Tail talk 01:56, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

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External Relations Act, 1936.

King George VI's role in Ireland's foreign relations was provided for in the External Relations Act 1936, which means that King George VI was King of Ireland, but not King in Ireland. - (2406:E003:E19:F201:E190:6606:D2B2:6D77 (talk) 07:04, 28 July 2021 (UTC))

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2021

The name of the article is wrong, article 4 of the Irish constitution is very clear about the name of the country. If it offends British people that a country formerly under their Control can decide its own name that is their problem. 78.19.182.43 (talk) 08:05, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

•  Not done Wiki software is not capable of supporting more than one page at the same article title. We have to disambiguate when topics share the same name. DrKay (talk) 08:10, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Lose the chip from your shoulder, IP. 1) See the note on naming at the top of the page, in the orange boxes. 2) The article on a state being at it's official name is the exception rather than the rule on Wikipedia. See, e.g., France, United Kingdom, Mexico, Libya, United States, Russia, Portugal, Spain... need I go on? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:46, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Read the FAQ and you will understand why it is "Republic Of Ireland" not Ireland. "Ireland" refers to the island as a whole including Ulster and "Republic Of Ireland" refers to the country that does not include Northern Ireland. FizzoXD (talk) 03:19, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 05 October 2021

Following on from User:FizzoXD edit (here) in relation to the etymology of the Irish language name of Ireland, Eire, and the correction by User:SeoR (here) that Ériu was a Goddess and not a god, can someone please make one final correction to User:FizzoXD edit in the first line of the name section .

Change "The Irish name for Ireland, Éire, derives from the old Irish "Ériu", the name of a goddess in Celtic mythology" to "The Irish name for Ireland, Éire, derives from the old Irish "Ériu", the name of a goddess in Irish mythology".

The citation provided by User:FizzoXD supports Irish mythology and not Celtic mythology as he had stated.37.18.134.184 (talk) 11:16, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Also please bluelink Ériu37.18.134.184 (talk) 11:20, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:45, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021

Please remove the terms "the South" and "Southern Ireland" from this line

As well as "Ireland", "Éire" or "the Republic of Ireland", the state is also referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South".[27]

Only the British refer to Ireland in this way. These terms are outdated and offensive colonial terms. Is Rhodesia and appropriate way to refer to Zimbabwe or Indochina for Vietnam? ClancyWiggam (talk) 22:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This will clearly be a contentious change. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:32, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2021

The title of this should simply be "Ireland", not "Republic of Ireland". "Ireland" is the official title in Ireland, the European Union, the United Nations and many other international bodies. For example, see this EU source: https://publications.europa.eu/code/en/en-370100.htm Note the line "NB: Do not use ‘Republic of Ireland’. Although this name is found in some documents, it does not have official status." "Republic of Ireland" is merely a description of the country of "Ireland". There is even a Wikipedia article about this: Names of the Irish state . The term "Republic of Ireland" was pushed for a long time mainly by British politicians because they thought that the name Ireland suggested a claim to the whole island. The Good Friday Agreement of 1998 put an end to that and even the British government now accepts the official name of the country as "Ireland". The only people who still sometimes use "Republic of Ireland" are some Northern Irish Unionists, far right British politicians, and certain members of the British media who long for their old empire. "Ireland" is the accepted term by almost everybody, using "Republic of Ireland" on this Wikipedia by some is only to create division or deny that we are no longer living in the 20th century. Correctatr0nics (talk) 20:55, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

See above. DrKay (talk) 20:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

@Correctatr0nics: you misread the EU page. It says "Do not use 'Republic of Iceland'. Although this name is found in some documents, it does not have official status." 2001:BB6:4713:4858:AC40:19D:30BC:AD2E (talk) 17:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I've no desire to insert myself into a highly controversial discussion when I have no opinion on how the page should be named, but I must correct the comment above by the IP. The EU page referred to says both "Do not use 'Republic of Ireland'" and "Do not use 'Republic of Iceland'". They appear in different parts of the document and are just one letter different, but it's clear from context that neither is a typo. I'm quite content with the status quo, but it seems important not to allow accusations of misreading a source to misinform the discussion. 2A0B:E541:330:0:F342:50B:5385:B172 (talk) 01:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration by order of the Arbitration Committee.

I understand that pages need to be differentiated somehow but the current name is simply wrong. Something like "Ireland (state)" would be a better solution. Correctatr0nics (talk) 21:23, 9 October 2021 (UTC) Correctatr0nics: This has been discussed many times over the years. Read the page linked at the top concerning the naming before making this suggestion because it clearly will not be discussed here. ww2censor (talk) 21:50, 9 October 2021 (UTC) As already mentioned. We've been there & done that. Indeed "Ireland (state)" or "Ireland (country)", were my choices :) GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC) It had also been recommended that the two articles could be split by Ireland (State) and Ireland (Island) (or Island of Ireland), however as pointed out by many editors, it is a contentious issue, that has been talked about many times and the consensus in what we have now reached is seen as somewhat a fair compromise agreeable to all.37.18.134.184 (talk) 09:56, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Name

I've read all parts of the manual of style, and also the naming rules. The current name appears to contradict the "common name" part, so I suggest we move this to "Ireland (country) and leave the current Ireland as it is, to not cause confusion. --62.165.235.165 (talk) 18:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

→Talk:Republic of Ireland/FAQ. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 21:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Please see: WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:27, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Also see the naming discussion link at the top of this page. ww2censor (talk) 10:49, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

This, discussions on the name of this article can't be discussed on this talk page it needs to be at the WP:IECOLL article by instruction of ARBCOM. Canterbury Tail talk 02:19, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 22 March 2022

Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country) – "Ireland" in indistinguishably the common name of this political entity. However, calling it the "Republic of Ireland" as if it were a proper name is misleading; Republic of Ireland it is not the official name of the country in any capacity (Ireland and Éire are). The proposed title is easily recognizable by any English speaker vaguely familiar with Ireland, unambiguously identifies the article subject as distinct from other subjects, and is concise. Notably, improves on the WP:CRITERIA of naturalness (most people will simply search for "Ireland"), while also implementing parenthetical disambiguation in line with WP:TITLEDAB. — Mhawk10 (talk) 14:50, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Procedural - this is not the right place for this discussion. There is a box at the top of the page that indicates any discussion regarding the naming of the article must take place at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. Canterbury Tail talk 14:53, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Withdrawn per big box. — Mhawk10 (talk) 14:54, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:19, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Location of footnote [a] text

In this article, the explanatory footnotes are all in the infobox, which makes some sense, because the footnotes all pertain to information found there. But there is one major exception: footnote [a], explaining the name/description of the state, is referenced both in the infobox and in the lead of the article body. When the reader clicks on footnote [a] in the lead, it's not at all obvious why the page seems to jump to the History section (in my case, anyway) -- one has to know to look to the right-side margin to find the note in the infobox. This was so non-intuitive to me that I actually had opened the page for editing to restore what I assumed was an inadvertently deleted Notes section, before I figured out what happened. Other readers may never realize that. And given that the name of this page is a subject of much interest and dispute, it seems to me that we should be especially careful and clear in pointing to this particular explanatory note. But, given the sensitivity with this part of the article, I did not want to unilaterally take action to move or duplicate that note at the bottom of the page. I thought it would be better to just highlight the issue here for others to discuss and address. --EightYearBreak (talk) 14:43, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

These infobox footnotes also don't seem to do anything on mobile. I'm on latest Chrome on latest Android, and when I click a footnote or reference normally it pops up a little footer with the text. These footnotes, however, do literally nothing when I click them. They don't even move me around the page. If I open them in a new tab, however, they work fine. So, since these don't work on mobile, I think that's another consideration against using them. Dingolover6969 (talk) 21:52, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Name: Country vs. Island

In the naming rules, it states that a common name should be used for the article title. I propose that this article be changed to "Ireland" and have the article about the island as a whole "Ireland (island)" More often than not, when people say "Ireland", they are most likely referring to the independent nation in the European Union.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zhyena28 (talk • contribs) 13:06, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

See the talk sections immediately above this one. Canterbury Tail talk 13:07, 24 March 2022 (UTC)1

ISL

Shouldn’t ISL (Irish Sign Language) be beside Irish & English as an Official Language on the Infobox? 78.17.143.44 (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

ISL, like most sign languages around the world, isn't recognised as an official language of the country whereas Irish and English have official legislative standing as being in the constitution. Canterbury Tail talk 17:52, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Recognition of the Republic by Russia

A mission was sent to Russia and negotiations were started. But Russia never recognised an independent Republic of Ireland.

S C Cheese (talk) 11:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

All the info on the article on this suggests otherwise (Ireland–Russia relations). The USSR and subsequently Russia, have sent and stationed many ambassadors in Ireland. Canterbury Tail talk 11:52, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I think S C Cheese is referring to the sentence "The new [1919] Irish Republic was recognised internationally only by the Russian Soviet Republic." The Ireland–Russia relations article says that negotiations between the Irish Republic and the RSFSR did not proceed very far. Scolaire (talk) 10:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

But the standing text includes an academic reference, with a quote "Both the new Irish Republic and the labour movement were sympathetic to the new soviet regime in Russia. The government of the Soviet Union recognised the Republic, and the Dáil authorised the establishment of diplomatic relations." and removing this would require a countering citation, normally - if this is not available, I think we'd need to revert. Perhaps the "relations" article has something for this... Formal diplomatic relations were late, 1973, but recognition is another matter, and there were at least two missions (1920 and 1921), but then there was a pull-back as the embryonic USSR needed trade links with the UK. But there's still that Fennell reference. SeoR (talk) 23:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

There is one citation in the Irish Republic article, and two in the Ireland–Russia relations article. It is clear that Fennell is plain wrong; he even says that the Soviet Union – not the RSFSR – recognised the Republic, which is completely wrong. Rather than replace the citation, however, I am just taking out any mention of Russian negotiations. It's not important enough for this article. It's enough to say that the Irish Republic was not admitted to the peace talks. Scolaire (talk) 11:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I've reverted for now, until reliable sources are provided. The new prose is not reliably sourced. ww2censor (talk) 11:24, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

You reverted just before I did my edit. The RSFSR is gone as of now. Scolaire (talk) 11:30, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

This has removed the error to which I was referring. S C Cheese (talk) 21:44, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Official sources specifying the current correct usage of the country name for Ireland (to update the Wikipedia country page currently displaying incorrect title)

European Union correct usage details by country, with specific footnote on the usage of Ireland:

https://publications.europa.eu/code/en/en-370100.htm

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United Nations references for official names of member states:

https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/content/ireland https://en.unesco.org/countries/i

Link to pdf listing official names of UN member states in multiple languages: https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/docs/26th-gegn-docs/wp/wp54_ungegn%20wg%20country%20names%20document%202011.pdf

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UK Government official usage for country names:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/country-names/country-names-the-permanent-committee-on-geographical-names-for-british-official-use [note there is only one correct usage for the country of Ireland]

UK Government travel page on the country Ireland:

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland

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Irish Department of Foreign Affairs:

https://www.dfa.ie/our-role-policies/ (Irish Department of Foreign Affairs website) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:1046:9A02:F2DF:B987:A220:2D20 (talk) 15:23, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh we know the name of the country, that's not in any doubt. Please read the talk pages archives and over here as well. And please read the red box at the top of the page for the correct location for any discussions on the name of the article. Canterbury Tail talk 15:28, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Please fact check official documents for correct name of the country in English (Ireland) rather than pushing a political agenda

The name of a sovereign state is not a matter of opinion and debate. Wikipedia should use the correct and official name, as per all official Irish and international bodies. Ireland is the official name of the state, as per Irish government, UN list of countries, etc. Even, the UK government list of official country names specifically excludes Republic of Ireland as acceptable use (unlike for France). It is extremely politically contentious and offensive to use Republic of Ireland, this was the name used by the UK government until the Good Friday Agreement, because the UK (alone) refused to recognise the name of the sovereign state (albeit former colony) until that point. How difficult is it for editors to read the easily available official government lists for Ireland, UN (and even the UK! official country naming pages and recent government COVID pages !) to fact check the correct and official name of a country? 88.98.92.27 (talk) 14:20, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia does use the name of the state, it just uses Republic of Ireland as a natural disambiguator as there is already a primary topic with the name Ireland which is the island. It is also used when there may be confusion as to whether we're talking Ireland the state or Ireland the island. Additionally it's not politically contentious or offensive, in fact it's in the Irish Republic of Ireland Act as the official description of the state. Additionally the phrase Republic of Ireland is used by the government, and as mentioned is in law, and is in use in Ireland, just look at the national football team for that one. I would suggest that you read the documents and government items before coming to a conclusion on this, there is no political agenda here and it comes across as more that you're the one that isn't aware of what's in the official documents. Also please read the talk page archives, all is explained in there. Canterbury Tail talk 14:28, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

As per Article 4 of the Irish Constitution, in the English language the name of the state is Ireland.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#part2

Surely the natural way for Wikipedia to disambiguate between Ireland the country and Ireland the island would be by using round brackets e.g. Ireland (country) 2A02:8084:4E41:D80:ED80:C306:BC42:9718 (talk) 14:30, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Any discussions on the name of the article should take place at WP:IECOLL as per the large red box at the top of the page, and in the edit window. This is not something that can be handled here. Canterbury Tail talk 14:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

On wikipedia, natural disambiguation is using an alternate name that is found in reliable sources. See WP:QUALIFIER. DrKay (talk) 15:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Querying 'Southern Ireland'

At Section '1 Name', at the last line, the article reads: 'As well as "Ireland", "Éire" or "the Republic of Ireland", the state is also referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South".[28] The reference for this is 'Acciano, Reuben (2005). Western Europe. Lonely Planet. p. 616. ISBN 1740599276. Retrieved 12 February 2015.' 'Ireland', 'Éire', the 'Republic of Ireland' and 'the Republic' are all ways in which the Republic of Ireland either refers to itself officially or unofficially. 'Southern Ireland' or 'The South' are not names for the country, but merely a way of looking at the country from the perspective of Northern Ireland and can only be understood through that lens. To be described as 'Southern Ireland' also infers that the country is half 'Republic of Ireland' and half 'Northern Ireland', which it clearly is not. Ireland has never been referred to as 'Southern Ireland' by Irish people, whether that is officially or unofficially. Instead, it is a term most commonly used by some people from Northern Ireland and some British people, purely through their understanding of Northern Ireland or their lack of understanding of how the island of Ireland is composed. You would not include statements on a country's official Wikipedia page, by how other countries refer to it. In fact, many people who are from or live in the Republic of Ireland consider the term 'The South' as dismissive and pejorative.137.191.234.130 (talk) 15:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the Irish government does occasionally use the term Southern Ireland in internal reports, but always when also talking about Northern Ireland. When they're talking about things that impact both sides of the border they do sometimes use "Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland". "Northern Ireland" to refer to Northern Ireland, (this is different to their careful use of "northern Ireland" as something else), and "Southern Ireland" to refer to the state of Ireland.

For instance "Rigorous pre-planning screening exercises established this proposal as EIA Development within both Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland;" when discussing a ferry across Carlingford Lough. [1]

"The MAs in both Northern and Southern Ireland will provide particular support for those projects that relate to North-South co-operation with a view to improving the outcomes for those projects going forward." [2]

They are careful however to only use it in this specific instance where Northern Ireland is also being mentioned. They appear to have the same issues we have on Wikipedia of ensuring a lack of confusion between Ireland and Ireland. Why they don't just use "Republic of Ireland" since that's their own official description enshrined in law and a good natural disambiguator rather instead of the potentially problematic originally imposed by Britain "Southern Ireland" I do not know. I would agree that a better reference could be found. Canterbury Tail talk 16:02, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

If quoting these occasional internal reports that are in reference to cross border projects, then that should be highlighted in the Wikipedia article, i.e.-'instances when...'. The instances are surely too infrequent to list 'Southern Ireland' as on a par with the other names mentioned. If the term is never used without the context of Northern Ireland, then how it can be regarded as a stand alone term for the Republic of Ireland? There is another Wikipedia page, 'Names of the Irish State' which says: 'The term Southern Ireland does not have any official status today. However, it is sometimes used colloquially particularly in the United Kingdom.' For this, they reference 'John Furlong (2006). Ireland – the Name of the State. Legal Information Management, 6, pp 297–301. Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/S1472669606000934'. A more reliable source surely on the use of 'Southern 'Ireland' as a name for the state then a Lonely Planet guidebook as is quoted here?137.191.234.130 (talk) 15:08, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Furlong doesn't actually say that. He says it was the term that was to come into use as a result of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 but it never actually came about because the 1920 act was repealed by the Irish Free State (Constitution) Act 1922. DrKay (talk) 15:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

The other problem is my research above that shows that Southern Ireland is occasionally used when also referring to Northern Ireland is original research. The stuff I turned up can be used to say it's used, but not how commonly it's used or that it's always with Northern Ireland. I do agree whatever way it blows that Southern Ireland is most definitely not on par with Ireland or Republic of Ireland. Canterbury Tail talk 16:09, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

What about listing "Southern Ireland", "the South" alongside "the Free State" and "the 26 Counties" alongside the context of their use relative to Northern Ireland? Cashew.wheel (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

That's not an equivalence. Canterbury Tail talk 21:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Why not, they are all colloquial terms used mainly in the UK and Northern Ireland? Cashew.wheel (talk) 21:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland isn't simply a colloquial term, but the official description of the country and a term used by the country in question. Canterbury Tail talk 23:10, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Apologies if it wasn't clear, I'm only suggesting that "Southern Ireland", "the South", "the Free State" and "the 26 Counties" be listed together as colloquial terms. Cashew.wheel (talk) 14:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Edits needed to the introduction - particularly the third paragraph

The focus in the third introductory paragraph on tax inversion, modified GNI etc seems a little excessive. This does not seem to be in line with the introductions of other country pages. A previous edit had for example included reference to Ireland's Human Development Index ranking (currently 2nd in the world.) In the fourth paragraph, it is mentioned that Ireland "performs well" when it comes to economic freedom and freedom of the press. In both rankings, Ireland is 6th in the world - surely "performs well" is not a fair description? Seamasjim (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

On the first, I'd agree. The broad point does need to be present, as few economies are so much distorted by these flows, but 1.5 out of 3 sentences in one lede paragraph may be OTT. I'd also suggest we change the order of the elements in this paragraph, and tweak the wording.

Now: One of Europe's major financial hubs is centred on Dublin. Ireland ranks among the top ten wealthiest countries in the world in terms of GDP per capita, although this has been partially ascribed to distortions caused by the tax inversion practices of various multinationals operating in Ireland. From 2017, a modified gross national income (GNI*) was enacted by the Central Bank of Ireland, as the standard deviation was considered too materially distorted to accurately measure or represent the Irish economy. After joining the EC, the country's government enacted a series of liberal economic policies that resulted in economic growth between 1995 and 2007 now known as the Celtic Tiger period, before its subsequent reversal during the Great Recession.

Possible approach #1: Ireland ranks among the ten wealthiest countries in the world in terms of GDP per capita, although this has been partially ascribed to distortions caused by the revenue attribution and tax inversion practices of various multinationals operating in Ireland (in response, from 2017, a modified gross national income (GNI*) measure was enacted by the Ireland's Central Bank). After joining the EC, the country's government enacted a series of liberal economic policies that resulted in economic growth between 1995 and 2007 now known as the Celtic Tiger period, before its subsequent reversal during the Great Recession. Ireland has also for some years held one of the highest Human Development Index ratings in the world.

On the second, yes, a wording like "Ireland is ranked among the top ten countries in the world for economic freedom and freedom of the press." Mind you, the press freedom point is a stretch, given the chilling effect of defamation laws, but as long as the indexes and citations support, it should be presented properly. SeoR (talk) 10:01, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Rename this page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Shall we rename this page "Ireland (country)" Hellonature (talk) 05:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Please see the FAQ above. CMD (talk) 06:54, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

The use of "Ireland" and "Republic Of Ireland" is covered by the policy WP:IRE-IRL.

Moving or renaming the page needs consensus which can be discussed at WT:IECOLL, although the majority of editors are against changing the name but there are some of us that would like to change the status quo. Cashew.wheel (talk) 18:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested Move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close, per the notice at the top of this page and in the edit notice of this page. CMD (talk) 21:06, 7 September 2022 (UTC) CMD (talk) 21:06, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

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• Republic of Ireland -> Ireland
• Ireland -> Ireland (island)

Per Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names. 2600:1700:6180:6290:5010:9EB9:D3A7:DB33 (talk) 19:32, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

As per the notice at the top of this page, and on every edit page, any discussion of this topic needs to be had at WT:IECOLL. Canterbury Tail talk 19:35, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ireland - NOT Republic of Ireland

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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According to the office of the President of Ireland the country is no longer called "Republic of Ireland". To the notice of some newspapers, invitations addressed to the President of the Republic of Ireland are utterly ignored. --2A02:908:890:EFC0:B62E:99FF:FE5B:4C9D (talk) 03:03, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Noted. Nonetheless, Irish law defines RoI as a valid description of the state. We’re all clear the name is Ireland (but it is also the name of the island…). Per the red box at the top, and notice that pops up when editing, debate about this has a home on a special page. SeoR (talk) 07:45, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

RoI is a description, not a valid name. If you're familiar with Irish history you'll know that Brits have been intentionally using RoI to avoid using the correct name, and Irish politicians have been fighting against this for decades

Why are we using an imposed post-colonial name instead of an accurate name for this page? Ireland is the correct name for the state in English, RoI is a description which shouldn't be the page name Saoirserose (talk) 03:44, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The current name is used for disambiguation purposes. Please see the FAQ above. CMD (talk) 04:54, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Title

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm sorry but both the constitution of Ireland and the government pages of Ireland refer simply to the country as Ireland, it is formed as a republic but the country is referred to only as Ireland in law. I can see there was a vote online, here, on Wikipedia on whether to name this article "Ireland" or "Republic of Ireland" to which 23 people votes, of those people, the majority of which from English-controlled territory decidded the name of this article to become "Republic of Ireland".

There is the vote of Wikipedia, and the actual facts, in the constitution of Ireland it states:

"in future to be described under the Constitution as 'Eire' or 'Ireland'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland

The president likewise refers to the office as the "President of Ireland"

https://president.ie/en/the-president/michael-d-higgins

The United Nations refers to the country of membership as "Ireland":

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states#gotoI

The European Union refers to the name of Ireland as "Ireland":

https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/country-profiles/ireland_en

It is only Wikipedia which is the outlier in this fact that the country name is simple Ireland. Gingerbreadman90210 (talk) 17:39, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

@Gingerbreadman90210 This is best discussed at WT:IECOLL Cashew.wheel (talk) 17:53, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

It must be discussed at that special page. And as to outliers, note that the State and its agencies, newspapers and broadcasters, and many others, use "Republic of Ireland" daily, as well as "Ireland." The current solution is not ideal, but since two pages can't exist at the same name, some compromise solution is, and will always be, needed. SeoR (talk) 11:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2023

Change the Taoiseach picture next to the president. Micheal Martin is not Taoiseach anymore. Leo Varadkar is. 122.58.18.103 (talk) 22:05, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Good catch. Done. Canterbury Tail talk 22:18, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2023

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is officially no country called the Republic of Ireland. It's the name of a football team. There is also an Act of Parliament but it does not give name to the country.

Reference can be made to the colloquial name, in the sub headings, but the official name of the country should be the page title.

Please refer to the constitution of Ireland, as seen on its own Wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state#:~:text=Article%204%20of%20the%20Constitution,and%20Ireland%20(in%20English). 80.233.52.104 (talk) 07:14, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Move requests are not handled on this talkpage, please read the FAQ near the top. CMD (talk) 07:18, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Discussion about correcting the name of the article should be had at WT:IECOLL Cashew.wheel (talk) 07:53, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Also unclear how an Act of "Parliament" would have any bearing on the name of the Irish state... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:07, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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• Ireland Product Exports (2019).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:20, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2023

Irish Sign Language is a recognised official language of ireland in legislation since 2017. 2001:BB6:287C:5A58:5C42:33CB:7345:B782 (talk) 06:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lightoil (talk) 08:13, 4 April 2023 (UTC)