Talk:Sid Barnes

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Featured article Sid Barnes is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Featured topic star Sid Barnes is part of the Australian cricket team in England in 1948 series, a featured topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 23, 2010.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
December 19, 2007 Peer review Reviewed
January 7, 2008 Featured article candidate Promoted
January 6, 2010 Featured topic candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

Charts[edit]

Anyone prepared to do a chart based on retrospective world rankings for Barnes's career? Also, does the existing chart for his career performances look clunky to anyone else? Can't put my finger on what's wrong with it... except the blue line indicator for such a short career might be based on fewer recent innings. --Dweller (talk) 12:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I'll do it. What's the link to the icc retro figures again? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
here Wonder who number 2-6 were? Here's the list when he peaked at number 7 - [1] Given the nature of the ratings, his short career would count against him... early career innings are penalised, to prevent flash in the pan players seeming to be top of the ratings after 1 Test, etc. On that basis, maybe leave it out? Or for balance include it? I think it's misleading. --Dweller (talk) 13:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Photos[edit]

A few new photos now at commons:Category:Sid Barnes, including a nice one as a 16 year old. —Moondyne 14:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Very nice work. Cool. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

12th Man incident[edit]

I think its pretty obvious it was in protest, this supports it, by saying that he asked to be 12th man, this was also repeated in: The Fifty Greatest by Inside Edge of ACP Publishing, 2001.

I have a series of 6 images from the article above, which show Sid batting, the best one is probably of him going forward into a defense or off-drive. The second best is probably him in the position of waiting for the ball to be delivered. The issue with the images is that they appear to be of him in later life and in non-match conditions. They are PD, because they are pre-55.

might also be worth noting that (from magazine above):

  • he had a stamp made of his autograph.
  • he got into cricket because his elder brother Horrie offered him a sixpence a time to bowl at him.
  • father died of typhoid four months before his birth

...Hope this helps. Twenty Years 02:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If you could upload the images to the commons category mentioned above, that'd be muchly appreciated. —Moondyne 02:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Raith or Wraith[edit]

Spelling of the bloke's name varies here and at Keith Johnson. --Dweller (talk) 10:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Who said what?[edit]

This is in the article referring to the concession of the libel case:

"Shand commented to the court, “... seldom in the history of libel actions has such a plea failed so completely and utterly.”[23]"

Barnes' own book, It Isn't Cricket, says these words were spoken by Raith's barrister, Smyth, as part of his address to the jury, and not by Jack Shand. Smyth went on to ask the jury to be lenient in the amount of damages they awarded: "All I ask is that there is not reflected against my client by your verdict the contempt that you and every decent citizen must feel for those members of the Board who, upon such silly, trivial grounds, excluded Barnes from the Australian eleven... My client foolishly, as it turns out, believed that this Board was an impartial body of cricket administrators. You can well imagine what Mr Raith thinks of those gentlemen now."

Barnes' book was published a year after the libel trial and acknowledges Shand's help in its preparation. A lot of the coverage of the trial reads as if it was taken verbatim from court notes. Johnlp 09:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Good point. It's an error: it was Raith's counsel who said it, not Shand. Neither of the sources used indicates if Barnes was awarded any money, so I assume the apology was sufficient. There was a feeling that Barnes put Raith up to write the letter as a device to get the Board into court although, of course, Barnes denied having met Raith, who Haigh describes as an "historically elusive figure".

Phanto282 12:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

According to Barnes, Raith agreed to pay Barnes' "taxed costs" and the judge discharged the jury. The judge said: "The plaintiff was not seeking to recover sums of money, but to clear his name. This case has resulted in such a clearance and there will be nothing for you to determine." So no damages were paid. Johnlp 13:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Interesting ... there is one source that says Barnes originally sued for ₤1000 which was probably a legal requirement; the tone of Smyth’s summation and the absence of damages would point to Raith being put up to writing the letter. Haigh quotes Bradman as saying that it was a set up. Now, why didn’t the Don appear? It seems he supported Barnes as a selector, but then he quit as a selector for 52-53 and was replaced by Ridings, who was captain of SA during the twelfth man incident after Barnes was passed over for the 1st Test. Perhaps Barnes knew he was gone and wanted to make a protest to Ridings...

Phanto282 15:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

My source, Rick Smith's biography of Barnes, has Smythe quoted as "[Raith] agrees to pay the plaintiff's costs", which seems to be the only financial implication of the case. Bradman was excused from appearing in court due to his son having been diagnosed with Polio. It was revealed that Oxlade, Cush and Bradman were the only votes opposing his exclusion. -- Mattinbgn\talk 19:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Moving forward to FA[edit]

The article is now getting close to readiness for FA. This is my suggested to-do list for next steps. Please sign up against the points if you're prepared to do it.

  1. Check article is balanced, in terms of POV
  2. Check article is comprehensive, in terms of covering the man's life adequately
  3. Check for general MOS and specifically CITE and DASH infractions
  4. Check all wikilinks are disambiguated
  5. Check all images are properly licensed
  6. Check all captions
  7. Complete and thorough copyedit by cricket fan --Dweller 10:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)MD Collins (see below) --Dweller 10:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Once we've done that lot, the following steps kick in:

  1. Complete and thorough copyedit by cricket newbie (!)
  2. List at PR
  3. Review / address PR concerns
  4. List at FAC
  5. Review / address FAC concerns

That should do the trick. Feel free to insert any steps I've missed. --Dweller 10:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind doing a copyedit/Peer Review. I haven't really done anything to this article, so will effectively be reading it afresh. Let me know when you're ready. –MDCollins (talk) 10:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Much better. I've amended the list above. Please go for it! --Dweller 10:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Copy edit[edit]

For information: Have copied up to /including the Libel case. Will finish off when I get a bit of time. I'll check through the refs afterwards too. One point from a quick glance - I don't like the stats analysis section much. There are 2 big graphs without much text to explain them. In particular, what is 'fall off', and how can I see it from the graph? –MDCollins (talk) 16:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd agree - what fall off? That graph isn't my cup of tea... The Rambling Man 16:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Finished the copyedit, I'm happy to give it another before the FAC. I've commented out the stats analysis, as it doesn't add much for now. All the references are now correct, although I don't normally use the citation templates, so forgive me if some aren't quite how you would do them! BTW, I went with "Barnes's", as that was quoted in one of the blockquotes, but restructured most instances so it wasn't a problem. It was inconsistent before, and I was taught that monosyllable names ending in s can take 's, and polysyllables just use the '.

Some points:

  • The red links need addressing (create or remove link) - at least one is a first-class cricketer without an article yet.
  • The lead isn't great, I've re-written it a bit from how it was, but doesn't really sum up the article particularly well. Now I've removed the graphs, the stats re: average and the finest batsmen in cricketing history, I leave to you to avoid POV issues etc.
  • I've removed any direct references to him committing suicide - the ADB reference says the coroner could not decide intent, so who are we to do the same. The facts can be taken either way anyway.
  • If anyone has the '49 Wisden, does it have an ISBN? Probably not, but in case it does...
  • And the Frith article on Cricinfo is taken from Wisden Cricket Monthly, but I can't narrow it down further than 1987.
  • Business interests are mentioned in one sentence, but it doesn't say what they are. Probably something for the 'outside cricket' section.
  • Children's names?
  • The 12th man incedent - the articles carried are different in the caption to the prose, and don't appear to be referenced (unless it is Haigh&Frith pp.107–111.
  • I haven't checked whether there are any important events/occurances that haven't been mentioned.

Other than that, it is an excellent article, and won't take long to finish up. I'll be back, and keeping an eye on it. –MDCollins (talk) 02:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions[edit]

  • The lead is not very engaging for a potential FA; I suggest a rewrite to mention the libel case, how he presented himself as from the wrong side of the tracks but in reality had a relatively comfortable upbringing (relative to the times) which illustrates his contrary nature, and Barnes’ partnership with Morris.
  • I disagree with saying his nickname is “Suicide Sid” and then linking this to his ultimate fate. I've said elsewhere that it was some artistic licence on behalf of the writer for the ADB, who is Brian Stoddart, an academic at LaTrobe Uni: perhaps you could email him. I have never seen it referenced elsewhere. Stoddart doesn't specifically say that it was his nickname.
  • I have a copy of the famous essay by Ray Robinson where he calls Barnes the Artful Dodger of cricket. This is apt because in his business dealings, Barnes was, as the English say, a wide boy. Robinson also describes Barnes’ style and technique in depth; the section on this is a bit short at the moment and doesn't mention how his game changed after the war. Suggest I add some quotes from this?
  • The statement about Tommy Andrews instilling a love of the game in the young man is a bit flowery…artistic licence again?
  • The “Life outside of cricket” section is a bit light on and repeats earlier info. I read Smith’s book quite a while back where he writes about Barnes’ depression in later life. Unfortunately, I no longer have it, but I noticed that another editor cited this book. I think a para or two in this area would give context to his death. It is no less a tragedy to suffer major depressive illness and suicide than to die from TB (Archie Jackson) or fall off a cliff (Stan McCabe, who was suspected of suiciding but this is rarely mentioned because of his standing in the game).
  • The graphs in the Stats section don’t make much sense, nor does the phrase “had he played one more innings at the same average, he would be generally recognised as having the second highest average of all time” in the lead. The 20-innings qualification for batting averages is arbitrary, who decided the cut-off point? I understand what you mean but the reader not familiar with the game won’t. Anyway, is his average that important if he only played 13 Tests?
  • Surely Barnes is the inventor of the silly point and/or short forward square leg positions?

Phanto282 01:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

In a strange decision, the New South Wales Cricket Association deemed the matches to be not of first-class status and Barnes was denied his maiden century again.

  • It is "strange" only if this was the only match (or one of the very few) matches against WA that were not given fc status. A listing of WA's fc matches from CA shows that the last NSW v WA match before the war was in 1934/5. So, if there were more matches in this period and none of them were given fc status, it wouldn't be strange.
Earlier games played against South Australia and Victoria by the touring WA team were considered first-class and the NSW team included several first-class players. I will add to the article.
  • "Barnes was denied his maiden century again" gives the impression that Barnes and the rest of the people were under the impression that it was an fc match but were told afterwards that it wasn't. If it was known beforehand that it wasn't fc, "denied" won't make sense. Just wanted to be sure that it is no.
The source isn't clear on this, but a quote from the book reads "Sid was angry at being denied a maiden century".
  • In that paragraph there are three "maiden first class centuries" in four lines.
Agree, this needs fixing

Re "His batting average of 63.05 in Test cricket places him as one of the finest batsmen in cricketing history", IMHO, 13 Tests is too small a sample for a bold statement like that. There are several batsmen who had bright starts and then fell away (like Jimmy Adams who was at 80+ till his 16th Test). Tintin 06:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Barnes played little cricket until 1945–46, when he scored centuries in six successive matches for New South Wales.[21]

  • As can be seen from the link above, he did not score six in a row - only five.

"During the second Test against England at Sydney in December 1946, he made a lasting impression on the world game, with a top score of 234 helping to set a world-record 405-run fifth wicket partnership with Don Bradman, a record that still stands today."

Break down the sentence. Tone down "lasting impression on the world game". "With a top score of 234" doesn't read well. Tintin 07:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Adding material[edit]

Agree with Phanto's comments, and also feel it is a bit light on the details of his actual Test career. Have done a bit to add some material to the 1938 tour section, and will look to do more on the 1945-46 and 1946-47 series too. A continuing theme throughout his autobiography is the need to earn money and maybe some more on this side of him would be good: he turned down the tour of South Africa in 1949-50, for instance, because it would only bring him £450 and he would need to pay his own expenses, and he played Lancashire League cricket in 1947 despite worrying that other Australians who had done so were never selected for Tests again. His first two children, by the way, were called Helen and Sid jr. Johnlp (talk) 22:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I have read the story of him turning down the 49-50 RSA tour but I wondered how he would be considered seeing as he played only one f-c game in 48-49 (Bradman's testimonial). Likewise, the stint in the Lanc League was apparently cut short (by the club? by Barnes? both?) but I haven't read why. Barnes went on the 45-6 NZ tour when they were paid a quid a day, and the NZCC offered a bonus, which the Aus Board refused! Does he write about this and did it affect his attitude later on? I guess there are two major 'what if?' points about his career: (1) Aus really needed him, even as late as the 53 tour when Hassett had to open (2) he had the opportunity to change the relationship between the Board and the players, but decided on a stunt instead.

Phanto282 (talk) 11:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Re the South African tour, Barnes writes (in It Isn't Cricket): "I was anxious to play in another game that season. This was the Kippax-Oldfield Testimonial game in Sydney, which followed the Melbourne one. But I wasn't chosen! I didn't mind that, however. The selectors came to me and said the game was to be treated as a trial match on which to choose the Australian team for the 1949-50 tour of South Africa. They asked me whether I was available for that tour. My reply was an instant 'No, I can't afford it', and so I didn't get a place in the Sydney Testimonial game. ... I had given thought to this South African tour—but not much. Here was the position. I was a married man with a wife and two children... We were offered £450 out-of-pocket expenses for the South African tour. We were to leave Australia early in October and return the following end of March. I could not possibly afford to go off on a six months' jaunt on £450, with expenses to pay on the tour and at home, and I don't know how any other married member of the side could afford it either." (pp185-6)

On his departure from the Lancashire League: "My wife and family had now arrived in England and I was finding the League cricket too much of a drag. I was anxious to cut adrift. They had good weather, big attendances and were now out of the financial drag in which they found themselves at the beginning of the season. I therefore asked them to accept a week's notice of the termination of the contract. I am sure they were well pleased with my association with them, though they didn't want me to go. I always look back on that Lancashire League engagement as one of the most interesting periods of my life. The people in Manchester are kind and generous." (p146).

And a bit later (p147) :I wouldn't have missed my experiences in Lancashire for quids. Bradman was booked for Rochdale in 1930 as a professional and the experience would have done him the world of good. He pulled out at the last moment. It does no harm to Australian cricketers for them to play in the off-season in England. They make money that they would never see in Australia." Johnlp (talk) 22:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cricinfo obituary[edit]

The author of the obituary used in the article is listed as Gideon Haigh. As Barnes' obituary would have been included in the 1974 Wisden, it is unlikely that Haigh wrote the obituary (unless he was an unusually precocious child). Looking at the source it is perhaps more likely that the section in cricinfo is cribbed partly from the Wisden obit freshened up slightly by Haigh at a later date. The actual Wisden obit can be found here. There does not seem to me to be too much difference between the two versions but I am not sure who the author is. -- Mattinbgn\talk 16:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no author noted in the actual book (in some Wisdens, there is an author credited with all the obits, but not the 1974 edition). I think Haigh should be removed as the author, as he patently wasn't the original, even if he tidied it up for one of the anthologies. BTW, I've filled in more details of Tests etc outside The Invincibles series, and they could probably do with a copyedit. Johnlp (talk) 16:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I added Haigh when I copied edited in the hope of finding a complete reference. Should have thought that one through! –MDCollins (talk) 16:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I have taken his name out but it still doesn't look right. Someone with a bit more of an idea about citing Wisden may be able to fix. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 09:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Is it time for GA?[edit]

While there is probably some things that still need doing and there are some cite tags that need removing it may be time to list at WP:GAC. Any problems would be able to be fixed while it was waiting for a reviewer and some fresh eyes would help propel the article to FA status. -- Mattinbgn\talk 10:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Can we hang fire with this please? Two reasons - first, I'd like to go to peer review first and secondly because I'd like to go straight for FA. --Dweller (talk) 14:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I guess coming from WP:AUS, I was thinking of this challenge - Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 27#Australian GAs. It is now on 90 and this article would help to make it to 100 before the end of the year. That said, I am happy to go along with the flow. -- Mattinbgn\talk 23:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review[edit]

Further to the message above, could everyone as a priority try to deal with the remaining {{cn}} tags, so that this can go to PR? Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 14:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to add a couple more things about his conversion to an opener in the 1946-47 series: there is a bit in the autobiography about (if I remember correctly) his reluctance and how Bradman persuaded him to do it. It seemed to make quite a difference to his batting style - having been a bit of a dasher before, he knuckled down and became, if anything, rather dour. I'll try to get to it this evening. If there are any other citations that need the autobiog, then shout: having dug the thing out I might as well use it! Johnlp (talk) 15:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
{{fact}}'s done now Sir. Oh, JohnIp, the simulated hailstorm is mentioned in his autobio which would be a better source than the slightly decrepit waybackwhen Daily Telegraph article I found.. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Great stuff. Please post here when all done, Johnlp. So, he started out as a biffer? Did he turn into a fully fledged blocker? --Dweller (talk) 15:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Added the couple of things I wanted to put in and changed the reference from the Telegraph to the autobiography: perhaps someone could just check over it, please. I think Barnes was a biffer by his own estimation, but it always seems to me to be remarkable when you look at scoring rates of 50+ years ago how slowly most batsmen scored in terms of runs per 100 balls (though the over rates were much much faster then). Somewhere else in the Barnes autobiography there's a paragraph about how it's a batsman's duty to score centuries, but after reaching 100 it's up to the individual how fast they go, with the inference being that his preference was to score a lot of fours and sixes. Anyway, within a year of becoming a Test opener he's being barracked at Melbourne for slow scoring inthis match, when he was battling to win back his Test place. Johnlp (talk) 22:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I added to the section about his style by quoting Robinson's Artful Dodger essay, which focusses on his post-war approach; I removed a couple of bits I thought weren't very descriptive and some repetition. IMO, it needs a copy-edit by someone who can concentrate on the flow of the prose (ie. search for repetition, continuity, consistency) due to the fact it has had so many editors' input and it kind of reads like it. BTW 'Suicide Sid' is still in the infobox? Phanto282 (talk) 01:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll do a copyedit and then take to PR. And that is a sourced nickname, for his fielding. --Dweller (talk) 10:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit issues[edit]

Hi. Following issues have arisen:

  1. If we're going to dispute Barnes's own account of his birth date, we at least need to cite it!
  2. It would be nice to know how he broke his wrist on the ship in 1938
  3. "Barnes was approached during the match about becoming an opening batsman for the forthcoming Test series" - do we know by whom?
  4. Can anyone find a nice source detailing how many times Barnes and Morris opened a Test innings together? I imagine there's a clever statsguru thingammybob and it'd be good for the Morris photo caption
  5. I don't understand the wine/commodities issue in 1947. Is this a suggestion of nefarious business practice etc? Isn't clear and worse, it currently smacks of OR. If we can't clear this up, we should remove it.
  6. "He was worried that having played as a professional in the Lancashire League would damage his chance of further Test cricket". Why? --Dweller (talk) 11:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
  7. His wife moved to Scotland? Anyone know why? --Dweller (talk) 11:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
  8. Victoria v NSW game in 47-48 - can someone check that Wisden did capitalise "Selectors". Ta.
  9. I've requested a citation on the team becoming known as the Invincibles. Someone please pick a goodie from an unimpeachable source.
  10. Article contains the following text: The Barnes<!-- This should probably be "The Barnes' demeanour" - can somebody check the source? --> demeanour in the field illustrated the general purposefulness of the Australians Can someone please check the hidden comment query.
  11. Was Jacob Raith well known before he wrote his letter? I've edited as if he were just a member of the public.
  12. "an awful image of the chaos and bigotry under which Australian cricket was administered" - is that a quote from source 60?
  13. Was Ridings already a selector at the time of the 12th man incident?

More to follow if/when they come up. --Dweller (talk) 16:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Responses
1. From Smith p.3. "...was born in Annandale on 5 June 1916. She christened him Sidney George after the city of his birth and his maternal grandfather. Sid's place of birth would remain a problem for many years to come. He always thought it was Charters Towers in Queensland and said so in his autobiography. He also confessed confusion over the year citing 1918 or 1919, rather than 1916."
2. From Smith p. 26., quoting Barnes "I had jog-trotted six times around the ship the morning we were due to land in Gibraltar and I started stretching exercises. I leapt to catch the steel rope running across the deck to hold up the sun awnings but the early morning mist had made the stachion slippery and I couldn;t hold it. I slipped back and, in falling, threw out my left hand to break the fall. I fell with all my weight on the left hand" After the quote the book continues "A few hours later the pain increased and the hand started to swell. He said nothing just in case there was a ship in Gibraltar on its way back to Australia" -- Mattinbgn\talk 12:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
More response
3. Autobiog only says: "I was asked during this State game against England in Sydney how I fancied the position of opening batsman." (p 115 of It Isn't Cricket).
4. They played together in 10 Tests and opened together 13 times. There were four innings wins; against India in the Third Test in 1947-48 they went in at Nos 4 and 5 when Australia rejigged the batting order in the second innings; and at Manchester in 1948 Barnes batted at No 6 in the first innings after he'd been hit by Pollard and did not bat in the second innings. There were three century partnerships, all against England, the highest 126 at Sydney in 1946-47. Johnlp (talk) 20:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - do we have a citable RS for this that pulls the 1st wkt partnership stats into one page? --Dweller (talk) 11:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
5. The wine spokesman offer was legitimate but the attraction to Barnes was that it got him to England so he could do some trading and consider offers to play in the professional leagues. The trading issue is reinforcement of his business and trading acumen. From Smith, p. 86 about the same trip, "When he heard a rumour that soap was in short supply in Eurpoe he took a gamble and brought hundreds of cakes. ... He knew he was on a winner when he exchanged a dozen cakes for a pair of binoculars and a typewriter with an Italian customs official". Of course hammering too much along that theme may be counter-productive; we have already included detail on his trading after the Invincibles tour. -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
6. In general Australians who played league cricket in the UK never played for Australia again. When Trumper and Bradman were offered league contracts, subscriptions were raised to keep them in Australia. Players such as Ted McDonald, George Tribe and Colin McCool were lost to Australian cricket after accepting league offers. From Smith, p. 89., "As he had played league cricket as a professional, he wasn't sure the authorities would welcome him back and select him".
7. Smith, p. 87. "... there was the chance that Sid could bring his wife and daughter over to visit their relatives. Alison had been born in Scotland and was keen to make the trip but she was pregnant with their second child. When her widowed mother expressed a desire to come along as well, the decision was made." and more Smith p. 89. "Sid did not feel he could drag [his family] back to Australia and then leave them there a few months later to return to England. Alison helped him out by urging him to return, saying that she and the children would be quite all right with her mother and her relatives and would wait until he returned." and Smith p. 99 "... Sid was asked to appear before a Board sub-committee, where he gave assurances that Alison would not travel with the team, or stay at the same hotels."
10. Barnes with no apostrophe - see this link for confirmation. As a bonus, the linked article comes with this quote, which would raise eyebrows today; "No less pleasurable was the gay left-hand batting of Harvey" -- Mattinbgn\talk 12:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit is now complete. I'm going to start amending based on qs+as above and then list at Peer Review, probably on Monday. --Dweller (talk) 16:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Couple more things.
5. I like "business and trading acumen" from Matt above. This is a quote from It Isn't Cricket, page 101, with ref to the time at the end of the war when Barnes saw opportunity to make money out things the Americans were leaving behind: "I like nothing better than buying something and selling it for a bit more. Yes, I won't say that I don't like money, but there's more to it than that. I like to pit my wits against those of other people."
8. Capital S for Selectors is how Wisden has it.
10. No apostrophe is the way Wisden wrote it.
Johnlp (talk) 18:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
And some more:
11. From Smith, p. 155. "Jacob Raith, a master baker, cricket lover from Sid's own suburb of Stanmore and a former president of Petersham Cricket Club..." It continues down the same page, "Rather than support the player, whom he did not know despite their associations with the same area, he decided to back the board."
13. It appears so. From the Independent obit - "Ridings was appointed a selector, immediately declaring himself ineligible for selection for Australia. He continued to play for the state until just short of his 40th birthday, captaining 79 times". -- Mattinbgn\talk 06:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

These issues were covered further up the page. Haigh quotes Bradman as saying it was a set-up for Raith to write the letter; evidence points that way. Ridings replaced Bradman as selector as he was from SA. The other selectors were keen to have Ridings make the 53 tour, but Ridings refused. He went on to be Chairman of the ACB. BTW, the recent copy-edit now shows Barnes as apologising for the 12th man incident, but this is not so. The NSWCA forwarded an apology on his behalf, after supporting him throughout the libel case, which shows Barnes' contrary nature and why he later lost a lot of friends and the support of the public that he gained through the libel case. Re a source for the name the Invincibles, I believe there was a court case (or some form of legal action) a few years back where Cricket Australia sued a company over the use of the name. I will search for it & get back in a couple of days. The source given for the quote "an awful image of the chaos and bigotry under which Australian cricket was administered" is from note 60, which is Harte quoting Raith's counsel.

Phanto282 (talk) 08:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there a single RS page that pulls together an answer to my Q4? If not, no worries. --Dweller (talk) 11:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Not that I know of. Johnlp (talk) 11:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Graph[edit]

Was there any reason it was deleted? Blnguyen (bananabucket) 23:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I commented it out when I was copyediting. Feel free to put it back, but the whole section was just a bit dodgy and not really analysed as it was described. Feel free to add it back but it needed a re-write. Hope that explains it... –MDCollins (talk) 10:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Agree with both perspectives. It should be in, and the section can be much better written. A statistical analysis is a good idea on cricket biogs as the figures can be rather dry without context. Also, some era context can be gained using retrospective world ranking figures, as we did for O'Reilly. I'll try and get that cracking. --Dweller (talk) 12:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Somewhat surprisingly, Barnes's highest ranking was 7th. ([2]) My guess is it was so low because the LG Rankings are geared to diminish early performances... given he only played 19 innings, much or all of his career will have been undervalued. As (IMHO) a highest ranking of 7th in his own time misleads as to his value on the world stage in his own time, I think we should omit the world rankings. Consensus? --Dweller (talk) 12:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
NB (This link) makes it clear that the rankings value his performances at just 70% of their full value. If he'd played one more Test innings, that'd have jumped to 85%. A shame. --Dweller (talk) 13:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Section and graphs reinstated. My initial copy is probably a bit naff. Feel free to edit viciously. --Dweller (talk) 13:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Aubrey Oxlade[edit]

The above was a redlink in this article. I have created a rather ordinary stub in case it was used as a reason to oppose in FA but it could do with some work if others have access to better source material. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 10:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

FAC comments[edit]

I have copied and refactored some of the comments from the FAC page here for ease of review and to allow some comment from me rather than have comments left by a range of contributors on the FAC, where I think Dweller is best to respond.

Hurricanehank

  • It seems a little too long, or perhaps the last paragraph could delve a bit more into his personal history.
  • I am unsure what is meant by "too long" especially when there is a request for more information on personal history. Perhaps this is a request for a different balance between the cricket and personal sections. If that is the case then I am not sure I agree; the cricket can be a bit dry, but without the cricket he would not be notable. -- Mattinbgn\talk 22:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Size-wise, we're fine. WP:SIZE makes it clear that <60K is fine and we're at 55K. I think he means the balance could be better and I agree with Matt on this. It's like the obits for WWII war heroes that are 75% about their war record and 25% about what they did since 1945. No-one would write the obit if they hadn't won their VC or whatever. --Dweller (talk) 11:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • post-war era. - it is uncertain what war it refers to.
  • Agree, and will reword. -- Mattinbgn\talk 22:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC) Done
  • Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 11:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • is best remembered in cricket terms - this is a bit POV, and it would be record if the record was clearly stated (something along the lines of: Barnes and his captain both scored 234 points in X game, setting the world record for Y).
  • Agree, but I am having trouble with a non-POV version. -- Mattinbgn\talk 22:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  • While I'm thinking of it, the article needs non-breaking spaces; 2 innings instead of 2 innings.
  • I don't understand the advantage of this. --Dweller (talk) 11:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Check the wikilinks, making sure they go where you want them to go. I clicked on Twelfth man and I got a dab page.
  • Fixed one, will check the others. --Mattinbgn\talk 22:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC) Done, think I have got them all.
  • Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 11:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd like better information for each of the images.
  • I would be loathe to add more to the captions on the images. The FA criteria specify that captions should be succinct. The graphs could perhaps have more context included. -- Mattinbgn\talk 22:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks. I'll take another look at the graphs and get back to the FAC. --Dweller (talk) 11:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm comfortable that all the captions are sufficiently explicatory, especially as the text often elaborates on greater meaning for them. To do it the other way round would be illogical. --Dweller (talk) 12:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Chart as template[edit]

I changed the img chart to a template with links. I think this is an improvement, even if it is a bit bigger. I'm not too bothered though if people prefer the smaller graph. —Moondyne 14:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Improvements[edit]

The infobox uses NSW and New South Wales in the born and died, shouldnt it be either:

  • "New South Wales" used in the Born paramater and NSW be used in the Death parameter OR
  • Both be New South Wales or NSW. Seems odd to me. 58.161.171.89 (talk) 01:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Cats[edit]

I have removed two categories that were added within the past 48 hours - relating to Drug-related suicides and Suicides in Australia - on the basis that the inquest evidence was inconclusive. I have left in the category of Drug-related deaths, on the basis that that doesn't seem in dispute. Perhaps others might have different views? I'm mindful that Barnes' offspring are still alive. Johnlp (talk) 21:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Later: I took out the other "suicide" categories too, as unproven. "Self-administered" and "suicide" are not the same, I reckon. Johnlp (talk) 21:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Birth date[edit]

A discussion about the conflicting dates of birth in the Lead and infobox is currently under way at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket#Sid_Barnes_on_the_main_page --Dweller (talk) 09:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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