Talk:Sonic CD

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What about the Creepyness?[edit]

i think i'll add a sub-gameplay about creepy gaming. Jct400thz (talk) 18:46, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Please do not, unless you find that reliable sources are reporting on it. I highly doubt that they are... Sergecross73 msg me 18:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Sound Test?[edit]

Why not include the sound test code and the secret stuff you can access from it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.64.96.46 (talk) 02:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is not a game guide. Sergecross73 msg me 03:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Screenshot update[edit]

Could someone update the screenshot? It seems weird to have a screenshot that was taken in an emulator; it would be better to put in a picture from the 2011 version. (TheJoebro64 (talk) 23:47, 19 February 2017 (UTC))

It would be better having a screenshot of the original Sega CD version, in my opinion. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, ideally, this. Sergecross73 msg me 01:40, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Of course, the 2011 game can have its own screenshot too, but it shouldn't be the only/primary gameplay screenshot. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 08:02, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I don't personally disagree, but some people are so hardcore into all the NFCC image policy stuff, that they may argue and image of both may not be necessary. The improvements were largely just minor "better resolution, wide screen support" type stuff right? We're not talking full-on Sonic & Knuckles to Sonic Generations remake type changes. Sergecross73 msg me 16:11, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
True, nothing texture or UI-wise was changed in the remaster, if I remember correctly. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 10:48, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Box art[edit]

Hey, should we change the cover art from the EU instruction manual to the US box art? I feel it represents the game better, considering that it's the actual cover. TheJoebro64 talk 13:55, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

If the fact it's the instruction manual that's causing it to fail to represent the game, then just let me know and I'll scan the European cover for the article, no problem. Can't see why we need to change to the NA artwork though, given that WP:VGBOX states "If a suitable English-language cover art already exists on the subject page, then do not waste time replacing it with a different version." - X201 (talk) 13:47, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
It doesn't matter to me what region the cover is from; I just suggested the US one because it's already on Wikipedia. TheJoebro64 talk 06:10, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
I, for the record, support the move. Either cover art should be used rather than a manual cover. For more recognizable. Sergecross73 msg me 22:28, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
We should replace it with the same cover then, not the NA one. - X201 (talk) 14:53, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
If you wanted to do that, you should have done it 2 months ago, when this first came up. Either is fine, but JoeBro was the only one to take any action on this... Sergecross73 msg me 15:45, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Notes for improvement[edit]

Hey, I'm just starting a conversation to work on improving this page. Some observations:

  1. The gameplay and legacy sections are mostly unsourced (although they appear to be correct, from what I can recall). Also, the development and reception sections are in need of serious expansion/repair.
  2. The Russian version of the article (which is a featured article) has a lot of material and information that could be used to expand this page. Some of it is sourced at places we wouldn't normally consider reliable (for example, they used an interview with Spencer Nielsen from Sega-16), but we could give it a try.
  3. On sources, this article probably needs a few more. Sonic Retro's got all these old magazines which, from my understanding, can be used as sources.
  4. Also, Christian Whitehead has revealed some interesting facts and material concerning the game's development on the Retro forums. My understanding is these are also OK to use as a source.
  5. Sega published a "developer's journal" on the game's development on YouTube a little while back. Let's see if we can find anything useful from that video.
  6. Let's also try to find some info on R2, that stage that was never in the final game (there's concept art for it in the above mentioned video).

Thanks, ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 23:09, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to make a start on the reception section and work my way up, but this will involve nuking the section in question and starting over so that I know what's being sourced etc. JAGUAR  20:01, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
It looks like most of JoeBro's recent improvements have been elsewhere in the article, and there's not a ton of stuff in the reception section now, so I see no issue with that. Besides, the old version will always be in the article history (or here) if it need to be referenced or re-added later. Sergecross73 msg me 20:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 13 June 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 01:49, 20 June 2017 (UTC)


Sonic the Hedgehog CDSonic CD – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Nearly every source refers to the game as Sonic CD. TarkusAB 00:52, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

  • Oppose - for consistency with other Sonic the Hedgehog titles. Also, no evidence presented that it's more common either, though even if there was, I'm not sure we usually use mere shortened titles as article names like that. Even if Mario 64 were more common than Super Mario 64, or Ocarina of Time were more common than The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I'm not sure this is the direction we want to be going in here...Sergecross73 msg me 01:05, 13 June 2017 (UTC) Upon looking into this further, it does look like Sonic CD was used a lot more frequently than I thought. Dropping my opposition. Sergecross73 msg me 12:32, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. The game is overwhelmingly referred to as "Sonic CD". Unlike, say, Sonic the Hedgehog 2, or Super Mario 64, game reviews seem to give the title as Sonic CD pretty much without exception - just google "Sonic CD review" and you'll see what I mean. "Sonic CD" is also the title listed on the Apple Store, PS Store, Microsoft Store, and (until it was apparently removed from the store?) Steam. Oh, and Sega's official Sonic CD page. Frankly I think you'll struggle to find many sources that refer to it as "Sonic the Hedgehog CD", and if you google that, you mainly get Wikipedia and fan sites. Popcornduff (talk) 04:00, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - The game is almost never mentioned by its full title in common usage, so isn't that the point of WP:COMMONNAME? The game is also sold on modern stores as just Sonic CD, like what Popcornduff said. By the way, the Steam profile (using Sonic CD) is here, not sure why it didn't show for you. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 07:08, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
    Ah, it's because it's not available in my region. Popcornduff (talk) 07:39, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Support - I was going to oppose, but did a quick search and literally every source refers to it as just Sonic CD. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 09:29, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
It was, just CD was the common name. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 22:04, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
The title screen shows Sonic the Hedgehog CD too. Sergecross73 msg me 22:33, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Yea, other than the title screen I think only the Japanese case provides the full title. US/EU covers say Sonic CD. TarkusAB 22:45, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - Sonic CD is such a common way to refer to it that I never knew there were other options. The cover art we use also features prominently Sonic CD.  · Salvidrim! ·  14:05, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - Let's be honest, no one knows or refers to this game as Sonic the Hedgehog CD. I've never even seen Sega call it that.Spilia4 (talk) 21:48, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support move. By now, it's clear that even the official name omits "the Hedgehog", sort of.  ONR  (talk)  22:21, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support – I think at this point there is an overwhelming support that this move request can be closed early. 76.116.198.27 (talk) 14:34, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Source for gameplay[edit]

~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 10:15, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

First title to include voice acting[edit]

Seeing how things keep going, I can only assume this will lead to more arguing and reverting, so I'm starting another discussion. I made this revert because its entirely trivial to note these sorts of details. Voice acting an extremely small and unimportant part of the game - most examples don't even include more than a single word or two being spoken.A few examples don't even contain words at all, like noting things like the first time a character "laughs". Completely trivial. Sergecross73 msg me 15:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

  • Agreed. There is no dialogue related to plot, just a few short audio clips that are more of easter eggs than anything. And if you want to be technical, SegaSonic the Hedgehog had the first voice acting in the series, so this isn't even accurate. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 19:13, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
  • I also agree to remove it based on A) the sources provided were only primary; if secondary sources are not discussing it, it's not notable and we are tip-toeing on the original research fence and B) calling it "voice acting" is a huge stretch; they are closer to just being sound effects. TarkusAB 04:25, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

R2[edit]

This has been here for several months, but keeps getting removed now. I don't really see why; Yuji Naka brought it up in an interview, and Christian Whitehead has talked about it a lot. The Russian version of Sonic CD is a featured article, and it mentions it, too. It may not be as big as Hidden Palace, but it's still a good piece of info on the game's development. Shouldn't it be worth at least mentioning? ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 23:42, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

  • How long something has existed in the article before removal isn't a valid argument for it. And the Russian Wikipedia has their own independent guidelines and policies, so you can't use that as an argument either. You've been arguing on multiple Sonic game pages in favor of adding "non-important vague level/feature was cut from the game due to time constants" to them, which I've said multiple times that literally every game has done. This level doesn't even have an official name, and the sources used here are from places such as Youtube and Sonic Retro. If it was that notable, it would have surely been mentioned by better known sources. I simply ask if this level had any long-term effects on the series at large (such as Hidden Palace Zone reappearing in the remaster), outside of just being mentioned. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 05:29, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
It was actually going to be in the remaster as "Desert Dazzle", but that was scrapped too. Source: http://toucharcade.com/2014/05/06/sonic-2-hidden-palace-zone-playable-prototype/ ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 12:27, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm fine with a mention of it, but it needs to be trimmed back. Probably kept more to what the third party RS's are saying (TouchArcade,GameSpy), not the Sega Retro forum post stuff... Sergecross73 msg me 12:42, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Alright, that's what I'm going to rework it as. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 13:07, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
If there were extensive information about some significant cut content, it would be worth mentioning. Saying "oh and they cut something" is trivial. Popcornduff (talk) 10:11, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
As I understand it, the cut desert level was originally planned for Sonic 2, though Whitehead planned on adding the thematically similar "Desert Dazzle" to the Sonic CD remaster. Sega's Aaron Webber has confirmed (19:42 to 20:26) that "Desert Dazzle" in turn inspired Sonic Mania's "Mirage Saloon," which may well be deserving of mention.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Nice find, I think that's worth mentioning in the 2011 version section. Regarding R2, I think it's worth mentioning in more detail because right now what is there is trivial. The way it was written before though was crufty, so it needs improvement! I think The Taxman's posts (and his posts only) are reliable considering his involvement with the game. In this post, we can gather is that the Toei animations were done early in development while work on R2 was still being done. This does not confirm when the level was cut. From post 2, we can gather that the rainbow sketch (among others) shown in this Sega video is of R2. R2 is also discussed in this interview on SRZ which I think is safe to use, but others may not think so. We cannot conclude from any source why the level was cut, although it's hinted in SRZ interview because the level designer didn't do a good job. How about this:

Each level in Sonic CD was coded and debugged by a single engineer. The engineers worked independently and in parallel, with lead engineer Junetsu Kakuta managing the overall framework to bring the levels together; this same process was used in Sonic the Hedgehog (1991). One of the levels being developed for Sonic CD, often referred to as "R2", was not used in the final product.[1] (Show rainbow waterfall sketch here) Some remnants of the level can still be found in the game's files, and the stage is featured in the ending FMV sequence.[2][3] TarkusAB 15:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

As mentioned above, I'm one of the people in favor of mentioning R2 to some capacity, but this proposal relies far too heavily on "Randomsonicnet.org" and "Sonic Retro's forum posts" as sources. We should be sticking to what third party reliable sources covered on the subject. Sergecross73 msg me 15:28, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
The "Desert Dazzle" discussed in the Touch Arcade link above has nothing to do with R2. That was a proposed level for 2011 Sonic CD, which is based on Dust Hill from Sonic 2. The GameSpy link doesn't shed any light at all beyond "yea there was stuff, we cut some of it out". If we are sticking with this two sources, then maybe what's written in the article now is as good as we're gonna get. TarkusAB 16:01, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
I still don't see the importance in this. "Fans found unused content in the files, and Naka said it was not completed due to time constraints" can be said for literally every game ever released. This type of info is better suited for the Sonic/Sega wikis, not here. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:36, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, but the majority of votes are still in favor of a mention. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 18:53, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Discussions are still on-going, and there's no real consensus on how yet. Stop trying to force it in until we have figured out a way to move forward. Sergecross73 msg me 18:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to "force it in", I still think this needs to be improved. What TarkusAB has proposed is good and I'd support it, but I've got some reservations over its reliance on primary sources, which might lead to edit warring over possible abuse of these. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Just about everyone has some reservations about how it should be included. So it shouldn't be yet. The proper approach isn't "Well I don't know how, so I'm just going for it however I want." Boldness isn't encouraged when we're well into a WP:BRD cycle. As I've told you before, you need to work through specific proposals on the talk page, rather than through article reverts. Sergecross73 msg me 19:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
I'd hesitantly support Tarkus' proposal to add to the article. Simply stating the most generic thing possible, I.E. "some stuff got cut because of time constraints", isn't helpful to anybody. Ask yourself what was the important of the level that got cut, and how is that any different from any other game? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 19:03, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Tarkus's proposal uses things like https://randomsonicnet.org/srz/index.php?page=interviews/jt.htm as a source though. There's no way stuff like that meets the Wikipedia RS standard. Sergecross73 msg me 19:09, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
That's an interview; I'm not exactly sure how interviews go when it comes to the source. Sega-16 has done interviews with Sega presidents and Spencer Nilsen, and I'm not sure if those can be used since Sega-16 isn't considered reliable. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
I understand the hesitation with using the source, and I feel the same way. Per WP:INTERVIEW: "As long as we can be reasonably certain that the material was written by them, then the Wikipedia policy on primary sources applies. Such material can be used, but needs to be used with care, and only to cite facts that can be verified from the source itself." So I think what it comes down to is...are we reasonably certain that the material was written by them and not edited or tweaked by the interviewer? TarkusAB 19:18, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I see that. But its still an otherwise unpublished interview, verified only by an obscure Sonic fansite who claims to be copy/pasting emails onto their website. I'm actually rather surprised Dissident93 is even open to it. He, like I, opposes it on the ground that it's more appropriate on the Sonic fansite/wikis, and this is literally an example of content that can only be sourced to a Sonic fansite. Sergecross73 msg me 19:19, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Well, I still don't fully support it. Outside of the Naka interview, which just has a generic statement about the level, the sources are dubious at best. Could Due to time constraints for releasing the game on time, Sonic CD had unused assets and features not included in the final game. work better? But even then, it just seems too generic to really offer anything helpful. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
I have no objections to that statement. We do have an RS saying that one of the assets was a level at least, right? I'd add that too, if possible. But your statement at least gives a message of what (unused asset/features/levels) and a reason for it (time constraints), so it's not quite as vague/pointless as some "Stuff was cut" statements prior used. Sergecross73 msg me 19:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Alright, I added that with the citation to the article. Now, can we focus on the discussion below? That's definitely not going to cause any more arguments. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 19:34, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Improving[edit]

OK, let's stop arguing over what to add to the page and start working on some improvements. I can see this going to GA, but we're going to need to make some major changes (the article only barely passes B-class). First and foremost, the "reception" section is woefully (and quite embarrassingly) incomplete - I've reached out for help on the main WikiProject Video Games talk page, but my request saw no responses. Second, we might need to see if we can find more development info to expand. Third, the "gameplay" section needs sourcing; we might want to look for scans of the manual and other sources.

Hope this gets us started! ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 22:51, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

I added the refideas template to the top so people can compile sources. I have a copy of The History of Sonic the Hedgehog which has some developer interviews and some info on Sonic CD. Don't know if only the interviews are reliable or the other pieces are OK. TarkusAB 01:02, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
@Sergecross73: Can you help with the reception section? I'm really bad at paraphrasing and deciding what's best to include. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 11:30, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Sonic Team[edit]

I'm unsure this game was truly developed by "Sonic Team" as the source says. There are no references to Sonic Team anywhere in the game or its documentation. The development section here talks about how the Sonic 2 team concurrently worked separately in the USA, and I am having a hard time accepting that both the USA and Japanese teams are "Sonic Team", but this could be the case. I went to the Sonic Team website for some clarity but the earliest game they list is Nights into Dreams. Maybe I'm looking to far into this, but after learning that Sonic Team was not involved with Knuckles' Chaotix and that some of the folks who worked on CD worked on Chaotix, I am being cautious of people just throwing Sonic Team up for every Sonic game. TarkusABtalk 12:39, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I can understand how this is disputed. Sonic Retro lists them as the game's developers, but I'll have to dig around since it's not actually stated in-game. I'm pretty sure the Japanese team is Sonic Team, isn't it? The American one is STI, from my understanding. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
If I remember right, I thought that the name "Sonic Team" was a name assigned to the dev team a little after the fact. Like, it was that same team all along, but they weren't actually publicly named "Sonic Team" until like Sonic & Knuckles or Adventure or something. I could be wrong, but I feel like some of the early Genesis games didn't technically have the "Sonic Team" label on them, even thought they did in fact develop them. Sergecross73 msg me 15:26, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
As Serge says, you're not going to see the "Sonic Team" logo on any game prior to Nights (that's also why Nights is the first game listed on Sonic Team's website).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:33, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Well, Sonic 1's opening says "Sonic Team Presents" right after the Sega logo, so they were known by that name from the very start, unless this was retroactively added in later prints? Now that being said, the lead staff of Sonic CD all have clear involvements with other Sonic Team productions, such as Naoto Ohshima, Naofumi Hataya, and Kazuyuki Hoshino. The game was fully developed in-house by Sega staff, and I think Sonic Team, as a general title, can be used for some games despite not being individually credited as a separate studio. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:46, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
While it's a fan-run wiki, and obviously not an Wikipedia approved RS, http://segaretro.org/Sonic_Team is accurate to what I've read about Sonic Team in the past, and goes along with what myself and TheTimesAreAChanging are saying. (Dissident too, actually.) They weren't consistently branded as "Sonic Team" consistently until they moved on to making Nights Into Dreams. Sergecross73 msg me 19:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the input fam. I feel comfortable removing the dubious tag for now. For those interested in more discussion like this, I edited Knuckles' Chaotix very recently to explicitly state it wasn't developed by Sonic Team despite it listing Sonic Team for years. I made this change because some Sonic Team mainstays saying it was done by another internal development team at Sega. However, Kazuyuki Hoshino did design the characters and was involved at the beginning of development, and Ohshima is credited for character design although that may just be for Knuckles. Would appreciate input if folks have concerns regarding that. TarkusABtalk 00:37, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
As someone who took a deep interest in Sega for a number of years, I was never under the impression (and cannot recall knowing anyone that was under the impression) that Chaotix was developed by Sonic Team proper. Then again, my gut feelings aren't always reliable (Serge recently corrected me on the extent of Sonic Team's involvement with Sonic 3D Blast). In any case, I'm more interested in RistarThe Gaming Historian argues that Sonic Team should not be credited as the developer, citing an Electronic Gaming Monthly interview in which a Sega employee directly states that "No, [Ristar] wasn't designed by the same development team [as the Sonic games]." While it is also undeniable that a number of former or future Sonic Team staff contributed to the project, I think Serge's initial skepticism on that point was probably justified, and that Wikipedia's current sources are likely parroting confused citogenesis.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:15, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
But doesn't the lead staff say otherwise? Even if Ristar wasn't officially made by Sonic Team, judging by the staff, they were clearly in close association with them, as many of them also worked on Sonic CD and Nights, with the latter being officially a Sonic Team production. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I've always been in favor of using Sonic Team and the developer of Ristar - mainly for the reasons mentioned here - it was made by Sonic Team staff members in an era before they were consistently using the Sonic Team label. That, and how frequently RS's call them the developer. Sergecross73 msg me 18:47, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Actually, you haven't, not that it matters—I just have a really long memory. If the Electronic Gaming Monthly interview cited above is accepted at face value, then retroactively attributing Ristar to Sonic Team is a bit like retroactively attributing United Game Artists's output to Sonic Team on the grounds that UGA was later merged into Sonic Team.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 08:49, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Wow, I didn't even remember that! Man, good memory. Apologies for that broad statement then - it just appears you remember my Wiki-life better than me. So yeah, looking back, that dif is from Feb 2011, and I did massive rewrites to the article in November 2011 and April 2013. Looking through the page history, it looks like I must have changed my stance on it after all the source hunting I did for it during the rewrites. Sergecross73 msg me 12:44, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Ohshima didn't design Knuckles, btw. Popcornduff (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I think that was Takashi Yuda, known for his work at Sonic Team (Sonic 3), United Game Artists (Space Channel 5), and then Sonic Team again (Sonic Riders), though others probably contributed to the final design we know today.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

The First CD Game In Series[edit]

The fact that this is the first game in the series to be released in CD is probably worth mentioning. I mean, because CDs have much more storage capacity than cartridges, this allows games to be more sophisticated which is a considerable case for Sonic CD. Therefore, this is a definitive thing. 2605:E000:2E54:8F0:345A:E1E2:DF72:DFCA (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

It's very trivial, and outside of the short FMV videos, it didn't do anything special. Sergecross73 msg me 17:23, 10 December 2017 (UTC)