Talk:Turks in Germany

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Article class[edit]

I have changed the class from start to B.

  • Referencing & citations ✔
  • Coverage and accuracy ✔
  • Structure ✔
  • Grammar and style ✔
  • Supporting materials ✔

Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Statistical Yearbook 2009[edit]

The link: Statistisches Bundesamt (2008), Statistical Yearbook 2008 For the Federal Republic of Germany has automatically changed to the 2009 yearbook! So I will change the population figures of Turkish citizens from 1,713,600 (2008) to 1,688,370 (2009) which means that 25,230 have become German citizens this year.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 13:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


What about the Turkish population in Germany after 1980? The statisticals shows only before 1980 here. --212.154.117.108 (talk) 07:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Turkic people[edit]

What about Turkic people living in Germany? According to this reference [1] in 2006 there was: 15,219 from Azerbaijan, 57,203 from Kazakhstan, 9,221 from Kyrgyzstan, 1,303 from Turkmenistan and 8,767 from Uzbekistan. This equals to 91,713 Turkic nationals (excluding Turkey) 81.153.119.143 (talk) 13:29, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
This article is about ethnic Turkish people rather than Turkic peoples. Your statement could be mentioned however it would probably be better if new articles were created e.g. Azeris in Germany, Turkmen in Germany and so forth.Thetruthonly (talk) 19:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Turkish Ethnicity or Nationality?[edit]

Using "ethnicity" sounds discriminative, as some -if not most- of these people belong to a distinct etnicity (Caucasians, Kurds, Arabs, Georgians, Albanians etc). Also Turkish is a national noun, its ethnical counterpart should be Turkic which would include Azeris and others as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.209.22 (talk) 14:00, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any references stating that 'Caucasians, Kurds, Arabs, Georgians, Albanians etc' make up most the population? The fact that you believe that most of the Turks in Germany are not Turks is discriminative itself and evidently a bias view. Ethnic Turks make the majority of the population. This is all written in the demographics section. Moreover, other Turkic groups are not even stated in the article. Have you actually read the article? And to answer your question (in the sub-heading) this is an article about ethnic Turks. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 11:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
You may also find it useful to read previous archives. Though I suggest you read the article itself first.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 11:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I think the anon is talking about Turks from Bulgaria, Cyprus and Greece. These people are ethnic Turkish people. Many people seem to confuse Turkish people and Turkic people on wikipedia. But it is not that difficult! Turco85 (Talk) 17:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
In other words, this article is about ethnic Turkish people. Not Turkic people, nor other groups who have immigrated from Turkey. Kurds are only mentioned in this article because they are included in the population stats. Turco85 (Talk) 17:31, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Political behaviour & Popular culture[edit]

These to sections are lacking compared to the rest of the article. Lets improve it! Turco85 (Talk) 17:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Turks in Germany and the Abitur[edit]

This article quotes a magazine called The Spiegel, stating that "only 14% have the Abitur (that's less than 50% compared to the German population, and also much lesser than other immigrated groups)", but I think The Spiegel got something wrong, because according to what I heard about that study on TV not 14% of turkish of any age-group, but 14% of turkish youngsters graduating from German schools this year received the Abitur. It is also not true that this is less than 50% compared to the German population. In 2008 only 18% of Germans of all age-groups held a Abitur (http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article2541399/Migranten-haben-oefter-Abitur-als-Deutsche.html). However it is true that ethnic German youngsters graduating from German schools that year were twice as likely as turkish youngsters to receive an Abitur. (Sorry for my english, it's not my native language).—212.201.83.30 (talk) 17:29, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree, this section needs to be removed because it is a biased article with no real academic reference like the rest of the article! In fact, this website [2] states that contrary to expectations, the children of (Catholic) German Italians perform worse in school than those of (Muslim) German Turks. 86.171.67.97 (talk) 23:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Ok. It looks like this article still has a lot of work. I encourage you all to help contribute towards the article. Just make sure that reliable references are being used. Thanks. Turco85 (Talk) 01:08, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree with what the other IP (86.171.67.97) said. This source (which was written by a german educationist) states that German-Italian children were the least succesfull ethnic group when it comes to education and that the turkish had better success with the education system. Unfortunately there is no english version of that article.-- 212.201.82.76 (talk) 17:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I dont mind translating it. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 01:44, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
I think p. 9 could be interesting: Am wenigsten Schulerfolg haben die Gruppen der

Staatsangehörigen Italiens und Serbien-Montenegros: in beiden Gruppen finden wir mehr Sonderschüler als Gymnasiasten. Das Gros der Schüler in diesen beiden Gruppen ist darüber hinaus in der Hauptschule zu finden, nur kleinere Prozentsätze besuchen Gymnasien und Realschulen. Während diese Tatsache bei den Staatsangehörigen Serbien-Montenegros mit der langen Tradition der Unterdrückung der Kultur der kosovo-albanischen Minderheit erklärt werden kann, die für eine ganze Generation auch ein nichtfunktionierendes Schulsystem zur Folge hatte, ist die Tatsache für die italienischen Kinder in Deutschland zunächst überraschend. Sie wird deswegen ausführlicher behandelt. Die türkische Gruppe als größte Zuwanderergruppe bietet zwar ein besseres Bild in bezug auf die Relation Gymnasiasten- Sonderschüler, auch hier ist aber klar ein gravierender Überhang der Hauptschul-Population zu erkennen. Wie der Aufsatz zu den Aleviten in unserem Band exemplarisch zeigt, gibt es aber auch innerhalb der aus der Türkei stammenden Bevölkerung durchaus erfolgreiche Gruppen. Zu berücksichtigen ist darüber hinaus, dass inzwischen etwa 700.000 Menschen türkischen Ursprungs eingebürgert sind. Da dies tendenziell gut integrierte Zuwanderer sind, wird der Bildungserfolg der türkischen Zuwanderer unterschätzt, wenn man auf die Definition Staatsangehörigkeit abstellt, wie dies die amtliche Statistik tut.--Greatgreenwhale (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Citizenship[edit]

Under previous German law, children born to foreigners in Germany were not entitled to German citizenship because the law was based on jus sanguinis, in other words on a blood connection.

I think this sentence is wrong, because while they were not automatically entitled of German citizenship, they still might apply for it. It was not like they were not allowed to apply.-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 20:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

But this is a fact. It was based on a blood connection... Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:58, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
All countries have jus sanguinis (blood based citizenship). I.e. US parents who give birth to a child abroad can without problem bring that child back to the US because due to jus sanguinis (blood) it is automatically awarded US citizenship. Likewise Germany's citizenship laws continue the principle of jus sanguinis, there has been NO CHANGE to it. Now, another completely different question is whether Germany did have an additional jus soli principle (citizenship by birth). And the answer is, no, German did not have jus soli, that was only ADDED recently. Is it thus justified to call Germany's old citizenship laws "blood based" as there has only been jus sanguinis? NO, because there are more citizenship principles than just jus sanguinis and just soli! Germany did award hundreds of thousands citizenships to people who do NOT fall under the jus sanguinis (blood) since many decades. These were granted depending on the years of legal stay in Germany. My own sisters migrated from Eritrea to Germany in the early 1980s and were soon granted citizenship due to the fact that they were staying legal (officially granted asylum) for the necessary number of years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.61.234 (talk) 08:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
As far as I know persons of non-German parentage born on German were not automatically granted German citizenship when they were born (as the case in other countires such as the USA), but still might apply. I never heard that persons of non-German parentage were not allowed to apply.-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 11:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
You are correct, Greatgreenwhale. Everybody who was staying legally in Germany for a required number of years could apply for citizenship in the old law. I thus changed the sentence to be more specific. It now reads "...were not entitled to German citizenship by birth", which makes clear that the old law didn't stop them from applying later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.61.234 (talk) 08:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Religion section in info box[edit]

Atheism is not a religion and therefore seems illogical to have in this section. Furthermore, the majority of Turks in Germany are actually more religious than in say Turkey or Cyprus were Secularism dominates. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:57, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

This is simply not true, although many European Turks might be more traditional than most in Turkey, figures from the Dutch Bureau of Statistics (CBS) indicates close to 20% of Dutch Turks do not have any religious affiliation. NeoRetro (talk) 23:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
This is about Turks in Germany not the Netherlands. Furthermore, this section of the info box is about religions. 'Nontheism' is not a religion.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 11:08, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Nontheism IS about religon. NeoRetro (talk) 14:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Maybe so but that does not make it a religion. It is actually against religion.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Discrimination[edit]

The following section is being disputed. It seems as though one user by the name of Massadanarti does not see this sentence as a form of discrimination:

  • 'Foreign Armenian terrorists have also attacked the Turkish community in German streets'

I for one believe that the reference is a demonstration of racism towards the Turkish community and have therefore replaced the deleted sentence.Turco85 (Talk) 14:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I for one (and the "one" is a German living in Germany) see this sentence as bullshit. If anyone finds sources in German, Armenian or Turkish newspapers, it can be reinserted with exact dates and info about the occurences. It is definitely wrong to say terrorists had targeted "the community in the streets" as a general occurence. --141.70.81.136 (talk) 12:18, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Languages[edit]

If "Turks in Germany" means "turkish ethnicity in Gemany", German and Turkish may be correct. If it means "People in Germany originating in Turkey", Kurdish must be included, as well as Armenian (to a lesser extend).

There are many Kurds from Turkey in Germany (who also speak Turkish), and some ethnic Armenians also immigrated. --141.70.81.136 (talk) 12:08, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Well the article is about ethnic Turks. Kurds are only mentioned within the citizenship statistics. One must not forget that many Kurds are also actually from Iraq and Iran, they do not all belong to people originating from Turkey.Turco85 (Talk) 12:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
the numbers given (up to 4 million people with at least partly background FROM Turkey) is not based on ethnicity but on (former) nationality it includes anybody from Turkey no matther what ethic group and it also includes people from the Turkish republic of Northern Cyprus (since Germany does not officially recognise the TRNC) 134.3.76.108 (talk) 15:09, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Religion[edit]

Since many members of Christian minorities (Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) also emigrated to Germany, due to repressions by the Turkish state in the past, they form a larger percentage in the German-Turkish population than they do in Turkey. I don't have figures here, but I think they should be included in the Religion part of the infobox. -- megA (talk) 13:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It would be best to find sources before adding this.Turco85 (Talk) 18:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm still looking for figures and have only found that there are 80,000 members of the Syriac Church in Germany, which would amount to 2% of the Turkish population (counted as 4 million). This is, of course, already more than the estimated 0.2% of all Christian denominations in Turkey, without counting Byzantine, Armenian, Roman-Catholic, and Protestant denominations. This survey only distinguishes between Sunni, Alevi, Shia Islam, "None", and "Others", which amount to 7%. The Christians are hidden in the 7%. Still looking for something citeable... -- megA (talk) 09:53, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
the UP to 4,000,000 number is NOT based on ethnicity but on (former) nationallity. it includes ALL people with an (partly) immigrant background FROM Turkey no matter what ethnic background those people have. it includes Turkey-Kurds, Turkey-Greeks, Turkey-Arabians, Turkey-Armenians,... m134.3.76.108 (talk) 15:16, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

"Turks with German citizenship"=3.5 - 4 million?[edit]

Isn't this figure moot? For example a person born and raised in Germany, from one (ethnic) German parent and one (ethnic) Turkish parent is, by definition of the Statistisches Bundesamt, a German with migratory background. And thus part of the 3.5 or 4 million. So, is he Turkish or German? By law, he is German, not a "Turk with German citizenship". There is no such thing.
"3.5 million people of Turkish origin living in Germany" – correctly phrased
"...estimate that there are now more than 4 million Turks in Germany" Nope, there are 1.7 million Turks in Germany. 2.3 million are Germans with (half or full) Turkish ethnicity. -- megA (talk) 14:09, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes I see your point. They are basically German citizens of Turkish descent. Much of the youth born in Germany do consider themselves "Turks" though, hence all the debate about integration going on at the moment; they are technically German citizens but not ethnically German. Thus, it is important to keep the 3.5-4 million estimates [alongside citizenship figs] which include descendents because the community will still consider themselves "Turks" [well German-Turks] once all have been natuarliased in the future anyway.Turco85 (Talk) 17:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes, of course. My only point was actually with the phrasing, which, if using official statistics, should also be kept to the official definitions relevant to these statistics. That's the reason I changed the formulation in the infobox back. I'd like to see some statistics whether a single Turkish grandmother makes people see themselves as a member of the ethnicity. We're talking a child with (1) a German parent already born in Germany "with migratory background", and (2) a "full" German parent (whatever that means). Anyway, the statistics given, afaik, only count first- and second-generation immigrants, so the phrasing should be kept to the official definition.
EDIT: Regarding "emotional integration": I just skimmed through the survey I mentioned in the "Religion" section here and found that 55% of Germans with Turkish ancestry have "strong emotional ties" with Germany, and 47% with Turkey. (You can have emotional ties with both countries, so the figures don't add up to 100%) In case of an act of war by Libya or Iraq (a muslim country was chosen on purpose), 50% of Germans with Turkish ancestry answered they would defend Germany, 18% would try to keep out of the conflict, and 24% were indecisive. (Figures for Turkish citizen in Germany were only different by a few percent). The study as a whole is very interesting, unfortunately, it's in German. -- megA (talk) 09:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
the up to 4 million people number is NOT based on ethnicity but on (former) nationality/citicenship (and since Germany does not recognize the Turkish REpublic of Nortern Cyprus it's citizen also get as a tecnicallity registerd an Turkish citizens) 134.3.76.108 (talk) 15:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Population distribution[edit]

The numbers in the table provided in this section do not make much sense, especially the "percentage of Turks living in Germany", probably due to incremental editing without updating everything. First the numbers do not up to 100%, even accounting for rounding it's too far away, second, many of the numbers do not make sense - 60.000 Turks each in Bremen and Schleswig Holstein get different shares of the whole community, double pop figures do not mean double percentage features and so on. --Ulkomaalainen (talk) 00:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Percentage of persons with Turkish background - please factcheck[edit]

This article says that 4-5% of the population has Turkish background, but according to Demographics of Germany 3,7% of the population has Turkish background. There should be a fact check on which number is correct in order not to let Wikipedia look contradictional.--Charlene1989 (talk) 07:51, 10 February 2014 (UTC) that also bother me too,Did you find the answer yet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 (talkcontribs) 10:55, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Segregation Section[edit]

This section is renamed to 'Integration Problems'. It can not be named as 'segregation'. None of the references, one of them is a dead link talks about segregation at all. Whoever initially started this, clearly extrapolating. Segregation is illegal in Germany and is not practice anywhere in Germany, including Ethnically rich cities. If there were any segregationist movement or views buy turks, law enforcement agencies certainly will intervene. Do not change the title to 'Segregation' before providing clear reference that there is a segregation movement or similar. --83.97.72.14 (talk) 21:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)


This section is written in a biased attitude based an extrapolated conclusion on a survey which reliability is in question. Neutrality of that section is very much disputed. --83.97.72.14 (talk) 18:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

the polling agency INFO has a good reputation and is cites by news agencies worldwide. Who says otherwise? I do not see any bias or reliability issues here--but I do see very relevant information. Rjensen (talk) 18:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
@Rjensen, source of the polling is not the problem. The problem is the interpretation of the polls and labelling as segregation. You can not attribute an interpretation of a 'sampling' study to LABEL whole ethnic community as "segregationist". There are lots of turkish origin Germans who integrated into society pretty well. None of the references refer to any segregation issue. SEGREGATION IS A VERY STRONG WORD. It is clearly an integration issue with the turkish community. Segregation is illegal in Germany. If there were any segregationist movement or views, law enforcement agencies certainly will intervene. Do not change the title to 'Segregation' before providing clear reference that there is a segregation movement or similar.

--83.97.72.14 (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Self-segregation Claims[edit]

"segregation" has multiple meanings and what is meant here is self-segregation, which is increasing among the Turks in Germany. But yes it's a good idea to use "integration." Rjensen (talk) 06:11, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
@Rjensen. Yes, "self-segregation" is probably true in some form but none of the given references talks about self-segregation. If you read the article about self-segregation in Wikipedia, you should add there too if there is any self-segregation by turks in Germany. It still sounds like too hard a claim while It is an interpretation of the polls no where discussed in the references. If you have references that discusses self-segregation of turks in Germany please do add, otherwise please refrain to add that identification. You might be a social scientist adding your value to wikipedia but no original research is allowed in wikipedia. Moreover I think even self-segregation might be illegal if it was practices, German laws against any kind of inhumane treatment or segregation is one the most strictest in the world, for example refusing to serve non-members in the Doner shop or similar would be completely illegal. I never heard such a treatment in any turk-origin establishment in the press. If you have it then please add of course.

--83.97.72.14 (talk) 01:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Residential segregation[edit]

@Rjensen, There are some original research works in ethnic segregation in Germany [3] [4] [[5]], Maybe you can write a separate article about this with your academic background in general. I think it is a generic issue with immigrants in the country and it must not be restricted to turks, this article. But I am not sure if these sources are acceptable in wikipedia standard, it still looks like OR, no original research policy. --83.97.72.14 (talk) 02:39, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Kurdish percentage in Germany[edit]

As I understand German officials do not distinguish between Turk and Kurd, but does anyone know what % of the est. 3.5 million Turks in Germany are of Kurdish origin? I would like to include this in the article if anybody knows. It's an important cultural distinction.Oxr033 (talk) 23:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The data are based on citizenship. If you can show me Spaniards and Basques in Germany separately listed, then we may think about that. Got it? --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 12:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Turks from Bulgaria and Greece[edit]

What about Turks from bulgaria and greece. There has been a migration especially from bulgaria to germany. So the number of Turks in germany is higher than expected. One of the most famous Turk from greece is Cemile Giousouf (Cemile Yusuf), a parlamentarian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.156.50 (talk) 10:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

person with Migrant background[edit]

ok,just for example,If there was a man who was of Turkish origin,And his parents were German citizens when he was born, but his grandparents were immigrants and arrived now Germany after 1955(Typical guest workers like many others), here is the question,would this gay or others like him be count as a man with Migrant background? or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 (talkcontribs) 09:55, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I found a source about a survey that discussed attitudes held by the Turks in Germany. Would this be relevant?

WhisperToMe (talk) 08:17, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Almanya'daki ünlü Türkler[edit]

Useful link: http://www.dw.com/tr/almanyadaki-%C3%BCnl%C3%BC-t%C3%BCrkler/g-17016295 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.107.66 (talk) 09:17, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Issues with Turkish ultra-nationalism in this article[edit]

This article obviously has various issues with Turkish ultra-nationalism. To name some examples:

  • Apparently the term Turks in this article is supposed to refer to a set of people defined by affiliation to a certain citizenship, namely citizens or former citizens or descendants of citizens of the Republic of Turkey. However, I just had to delete a recently IP-inserted paragraph (off-topic in its section anyway) which sought to use the term Turks in opposition to Kurds, thus as an ethnicity.
  • Apparently the term Turks in this article is supposed to refer to a set of individuals, namely citizens or former citizens or descendants of citizens of the Republic of Turkey. However, this article is full of instances of denying such individuality, instead forcing the individuals into a nationalistic collective called Turkish community and only considering them as part of said collective.
  • This article lacks any discussion of the problems associated with organized Turkish ultra-nationalist political activism in Germany, both in the secular variety ("Grey Wolves") and Neo-Ottoman variety.

These issues should and must be addressed, for the article to do justice to its topic. I am seriously considering if a POV template is needed for the article. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 23:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Timeline[edit]

I removed the following timeline from the page; it was not sourced and seems unnecessary.

  1. ^ "Merkel says German multicultural society has failed". bbc.co.uk. 2010-10-17. Retrieved 2010-11-19.