Talk:Women in China
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- 1 Problems for this page
- 2 Original text prior removal
- 3 Other sections to add
- 4 Copyvio
- 5 Article Proposal
- 6 Review
- 7 Suggestions
- 8 Crimes Against Women - Footbinding
- 9 Biographical Dictionary of Chinese Women
- 10 中國婦女傳記詞典: The Qing Period, 1644-1911 By Lily Xiao Hong Lee, A. D. Stefanowska
- 11 One-child policy
- 12 Employment
- 13 Property Rights
Problems for this page
There are serious problems for this page.
- poorly written. Note the title of "in the PRC", but the article has elements talking about 1920s and suddenly talk about party leader. Hello! PRC starts from the year 1949.
- lack of citations. Yes, I noticed that the text is copied from a place, but that article is NOT an original research and contains NO references.
- full of opinions. When could "hints" ever be facts? Particularly when they were hints without references.
There are a lot of opinions here, and some of these sources, in the footnotes, actually do not conclude what they were claimed to conclude. There seem to be a good deal of ideology at play here, not referenced research. There are footnote sources talking about "Theoretical perspectives on gender stratification in China" that are being used to contradict actual facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 17:17, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Original text prior removal
The text is totally unacceptable since it has 0 references. Prior blanking, I move the content here so you can see for yourself. Words such as "fewer" need referencing statistics. This is Wikipedia, not a political forum (and hence copy / paste of U.S. view of Chinese society), particularly when U.S. records are worse than China in areas of abortion rights, and political involvements etc. Coconut99 99 (talk) 18:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Traditional Chinese society has been traditionally male-centered. Sons were preferred to daughters, and women were expected to be subordinate to fathers, husbands, and sons. A young woman had little voice in the decision on her marriage partner (neither did a young man). When married, it was she who left her natal family and community and went to live in a family and community of strangers where she was subordinate to her mother-in-law. Far fewer women were educated than men, and sketchy but consistent demographic evidence would seem to show that female infants and children had higher death rates and less chance of surviving to adulthood than males. In extreme cases, female infants were the victims of infanticide, and daughters were sold, as chattels, to brothels or to wealthy families. Bound feet, which were customary even for peasant women, symbolized the painful constraints of the female role.
Protests and concerted efforts to alter women's place in society began in China's coastal cities in the early years of the twentieth century. By the 1920s formal acceptance of female equality was common among urban intellectuals. Increasing numbers of girls attended schools, and young secondary school and college students approved of marriages based on free choice. Footbinding declined rapidly in the second decade of the century, the object of a nationwide campaign led by intellectuals who associated it with national backwardness.
Nevertheless, while party leaders condemned the oppression and subordination of women as one more aspect of the traditional society they were intent on changing, they did not accord feminist issues very high priority. In the villages, party members were interested in winning the loyalty and cooperation of poor and lower-middle-class male peasants, who could be expected to resist public criticism of their treatment of their wives and daughters. Many party members were poor and lower-middle-class peasants from the interior, and their attitudes toward women reflected their background. The party saw the liberation of women as depending, in a standard Marxist way, on their participation in the labor force outside the household.
The position of women in contemporary society has changed from the past, and public verbal assent to propositions about the equality of the sexes and of sons and daughters seems universal. Women attend schools and universities, serve in the People's Liberation Army, and join the party. Almost all urban women and the majority of rural women work outside the home. But women have been disadvantaged in many ways, economic and social, and there had been no prospect for substantive change.
The greatest change in women's status has been their movement into the paid labor force. The jobs they held in the 1980s, though, were generally lower paying and less desirable than those of men. Industries staffed largely by women, such as the textiles industry, paid lower wages than those staffed by men, such as the steel or mining industries. Women were disproportionately represented in collective enterprises, which paid lower wages and offered fewer benefits than state-owned industries. In the countryside, the work of males was consistently better rewarded than that of women, and most skilled and desirable jobs, such as driving trucks or repairing machines, were held by men. In addition, Chinese women suffered the familiar double burden of full-time wage work and most of the household chores as well.
As there come to be both more opportunities and more explicit competition for them in both city and countryside, there are some hints of women's being excluded from the competition. In the countryside, a disproportionate number of girls drop out of primary school because parents do not see the point of educating a daughter who will marry and leave the family and because they need her labor in the home. There are fewer female students in key rural and urban secondary schools and universities. As economic growth in rural areas generates new and potentially lucrative jobs, there is a tendency in at least some areas for women to be relegated to agricultural labor, which is poorly rewarded. There have been reports in the Chinese press of outright discrimination against women in hiring for urban jobs and of enterprises requiring female applicants to score higher than males on examinations for hiring.
On the whole, in the 1980s women were better off than their counterparts 50 or a 100 years before, and they had full legal equality with men. In practice, their opportunities and rewards were not entirely equal, and they tended to get less desirable jobs and to retain the burden of domestic chores in addition to full-time jobs.
You should have just added some fact tags. To remove the whole lot without warning is not proper - it doesn't give anyone a chance to sort it out. Really you should put fact tags on and then leave it for about a month. John Smith's (talk) 20:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Other sections to add
"On July 21, 2008, the All China women's Federation reported that in Nanjing, China, it was reported that several wives cut off their husband's penis because they could not stand that their husbands were gambling or cheating on them. These are classified as a "crime of impulsion" by prosecutors in Nanjing, because the women go through an "emotional crisis". Most of these female criminals were younger than 35, and receive only a suspended sentence or one below three years, and are sent back home"
[http://www.womenofchina.cn/html/report/94105-1.htm Procurators working in rural areas of Nanjing admitted that there had been several cases, in which the wife intentionally harmed her husband by cutting off his penis. A procurator on the case said: "Their reasons are simple. The wife could not bear the fact that her husband is gambling or cheating on her. It is a crime of impulsion in an emotional crisis." Li Aijun, director of the public prosecution branch in the Nanjing municipal procuratorate, said: "Women are always vulnerable to harm in a relationship and marriage. It is hard for them to change their situation. So they tend to use an extreme means."
In cases concerning female suspects, 80 percent of the women are charged with a suspended sentence or a sentence less than three years. Sun Xiaozhong, deputy director of the Nanjing Bureau of Justice, said that it is a better choice to sentence women who have committed minor crimes with a non-imprisonment penalty and send them back home. It is for their own good, and society as well.]Bunser (talk) 22:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Please explain how this is copyright violation. Tengu800 18:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Hello Everybody! I propose to edit this entry to improve the level of comprehension, increase the number of scholarly sources, and expand on areas not discussed in the original entry. I believe that these edits are critical because Women in the People's Republic of China is a significant topic that deserves proper attention on Wikipedia. The current Wikipedia category of Women’s Rights in Asia has one subcategory for China. Unfortunately this subcategory only discusses the violence agaisnt women in China, which leads to the Wiki entry on Bride-buying. Although bride buying is a significant aspect of gender inequality in China, it does not begin to effectively present the entire issue. Currently, Wikipedia has an entry that broadly covers Gender Inequality with a subsection titled “Gender Inequality Across the Globe.” Under this subsection there exists a very brief summary of international gender inequality issues followed by a discussion of gender inequality in the United States. There is no reference to the gender disparities that plague China. The topic of gender inequality in the People's Republic of China is a very significant issue that has been researched and published in a number of scholarly journals and has received attention from influential international organization, such as the United Nations. In order to allocate the proper attention to this topic, my new entry will include subsections on legislation, cultural/societal norms, and implications in regards to family structure, education, healthcare, and employment. In order to provide detailed discussion of each subsection, I have found a significant number of scholarly resources, such as works by the World Bank and Amartya Sen. I hope that other contributors will continue my contributions by adding subsections including but not limited to, the history of gender inequality and the impacts of gender inequality on sexuality. I also hope that later contributors will expand the section on crimes against women.
I will be completing this entry under the guidance of a Poverty, Justice, and Development course at Rice University. I have added the banner to the top of this page if you would like further information. If you have any suggestions for the execution of my proposed entry, please let me know. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Thank you. Nqogu (talk) 16:44, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- You've made good changes! I have some suggestions. The lead section could use expansion. Ideally it should be at least two paragraphs. You can visit WP: LEAD for more information. Also, “advancing progress” seems redundant. In "Progress in promoting equality," it seems a bit strange to have an entire section just be a quote. It's good information, but maybe you should break it up or bring in another source. The "Gender inequality" section technically applies to most of the article, doesn’t it? For instance, the gender gap in education could fit there, too. Maybe move foot binding to "Crimes against women" and just change the "Gender inequality" section to "Domestic Life," since the only subsection you have under "Gender inequality" is "Domestic Life." Alissahart (talk) 00:51, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you so much for your constructive criticism Alissahart! As I denoted in my email and as we discussed during the workshop, the forward and the "Progess in promoting equality" section were previously created by another wikiuser and appeared as such in the original wikientry. However, I will be sure to use the information provided in the WP:LEAD to guide my expansion of the forward. I am a little confused by your suggestion to change "Gender inequality" to "Domestic life". You mention that the discussion on the education gap could fit under the "Gender inequality" section, but my current entry has the education gap (addressed in the "Education" section) listed as a subsection under "Gender inequality". Thus, I am confused by your proposed change. Also, I considered moving the section on foot binding to the "Crimes against women" section, but feared that some wikiusers would object for the practice was not seen as a crime against women but a continuation of an ancient Chinese tradition. I recently added the under construction banner to this entry and hopefully more people will visit and provide feedback, particularly in regards to moving the section on foot binding. Again, thank you for your feedback and I will be sure to consider your suggestions as I continue to edit this wikipage. Nqogu (talk) 10:59, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry! You're right about how "Education" is under "Gender Inequality." I must have not seen that correctly the first time. Also, just because you didn't write "Progress in promoting equality" doesn't mean that you don't have to change it. For instance, you can use those facts in the lead and get rid of the section since it is so short. The point is to improve the article as a whole. Also, foot-binding was prohibited by more than one emperor, so would that not mean it was a crime? Anyway, you did a great job with the article! Alissahart (talk) 14:39, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
- Alissahart, I completely agree! I mistakenly thought you were suggesting that I go in and find sources to support the information currently presented in "Progress in promoting equality." I really like your suggestion to break down the section and move important points to the lead of the entry. Yes, foot binding was outlawed on many occasions but as we discussed in lecture today, it was not until social, economic, and political factors all came together for change to finally occur and for the practice to come to an end. I will be sure to better convey this as I continue to edit this entry. Thank you for your response. Nqogu (talk) 18:21, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
So I thought it was a great article. I feel like there are a lot of points that you bring up but you dont have a lot of time to focus on them. For example, in the section of second wives, you say that having them produces many issues without elaborating on what they actually are. Also, I feel like a lot of this is historical which is fine but it would be more interesting to know about some of the current practices in China. I also agree that the foot-binding section might be better placed under the section of Crimes against Women. You should also talk about even though the fact that this has been banned, does it still take place in China? But still, it is a very good article. Mpyles91 (talk) 21:32, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you Mpyles91 for your feedback! As I denoted in my email, the section on second wives was previously constructed by another wikiuser and appeared as such in the original wikientry. A lot of the sections do reflect on the current status of the People's Republic of China, but I will search for more scholarly sources that report the current state of the People's Republic of China and integrate information from those sources into the entry. I will also suggest that other wikiusers will add a section on current events related to women. Also, as I mentioned in my response to the feedback from Alissahart, I considered moving the section on foot binding to the "Crimes against women" section, but feared that some wikiusers would object for the practice was not seen as a crime against women but a continuation of an ancient Chinese tradition. Do you foresee any negative outcomes, such as backlash from wikiusers, from the implementation of the suggested move? Furthermore, the practice of foot binding lasted approximately 1,000 years and is no longer practiced in the People's Republic of China. Again, thank you for your review. Your comments were very beneficial and I will be sure to keep them in mind as I continue to revise this wikientry.Nqogu (talk) 11:19, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm I would think that since it is currently outlawed that it could be considered a crime against women. Although, perhaps at the time it was not a crime. Maybe you could change the title of that section to say something to the effect of how women were harmed? And sorry I did not have time to check the email but thank you for that! Mpyles91 (talk) 04:46, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Nqogu I think you did a great job improving this article. I have a few minor suggestions.
-The sentence “The Tang Dynasty (618-906 CE) recognized that a marriage filled with incompatibility… should probably read something like the Tang dynasty allowed for incompatible marriages to be dissolved…
-In the spousal abuse section, is there a link or reference you could use that connects the lack of recognition for the divorce law to domestic violence? That would really add credibility.
-Similarly to what other reviewers suggested, in the foot binding section more could be added on how the practice was really ended and whether or not it persisted after the ban.
-The health care section may need a few more references because there seems to be a few factual statements that need support right at the end of the sentence.
-Also, maybe a bit more of an explanation if the “missing women” section so that it is clear that you are not simply referring to kidnappings or deaths.
-This article was interesting and had great detailed information. However, the "Second Wives" section could use more information and data. For example, do all Chinese men engage in this practice? If not, how many actually do? Is this practice accepted by all generations or just the older/younger generations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MLA253 (talk • contribs) 06:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Crimes Against Women - Footbinding
I see that the practice of foot-binding is listed among "Crimes against women," alongside trafficking and prostitution. This seems to be a normative value judgement, imposed based a on contemporary, Western conceptualization of human rights. I make no defense of the practice, but it may be worth considering a more neutral framing of this issue. Also, a more pointed question: did footbinding only become popular in the 13th century? If memory serves, the practice became popular in elite circles in the late Tang dynasty, and began to be adopted widely in the Song. The 13th century coincides with the end of the Song. I might double check on this.Homunculus (duihua) 21:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
" According to Yuhui Li, a graduate of Columbia University and post-doctorate from the University of Chicago, the practice of footbinding did not end until reformist movement of the late ninetieth century. During this period a number of Chinese intellectuals introduced Western ideologies that “advocated equality between women and men, free love and marriage, educational opportunities for women, labor force participation of women, in a word, women's emancipation.” Following the fall of the Qing dynasty and the end of imperial rule, the Republican government outlawed foot-binding in 1912 and popular attitudes toward the practice began to shift decisively by the 1920s. In 1949 the practice of footbinding was successfully banned and has remained banned this day."
Someone explain to me how 1912 and the 1920's are "the late ninetieth century"? Also, in Yuhui Li's article, she notes, incorrectly, that "Foot-binding was outlawed in 1902 by the imperial edicts of the Qing Dynasty, the last dynasty in China which ended in 1911." That's completely incorrect. The Qing dynasty's edict was put out in 1644, not 1902. Yuhui Li might have done her graduate work at Chicago, but she didn't read the journals. http://www.anthropology.hawaii.edu/people/faculty/Blake/pdfs/1994%20%20Foot-binding%20in%20Neo-Confucian%20China.pdf That's actually from the Chicago Journals and details accurate information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheMaxxx12345 (talk • contribs) 17:57, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Biographical Dictionary of Chinese Women
中國婦女傳記詞典: The Qing Period, 1644-1911 By Lily Xiao Hong Lee, A. D. Stefanowska
I think we see a serious case of ideology over facts here. The wiki page on the issue, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_child_policy correctly identifies the date the policy was introduced, 1978, and when it was first applied, 1978. Why does this page highly suggest the policy started more than 20 years earlier, in 1956? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheMaxxx12345 (talk • contribs) 18:12, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Really? Many positive things stated in the very same references used through-out this page are completely missing in this section, as well as some others actually. I'm putting in some of the actual data from these sources, even if they don't fit into some of the political narrative we have going on here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheMaxxx12345 (talk • contribs) 18:25, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Edited women in politics section. Of the two new sentences added, the first is actually a quote from the source and is actually the opening sentence of the report. The previous version stated the exact opposite of the report cited. Whereas the previous version stated the trend was declining, the reality is that not only is the trend going in the other direction, it's the fastest increase in international rankings ever recorded on the planet.
Do people actually check these sources, or do they just make something up and pick a random source to cite? I keep finding sources stating, literally, the exact opposite of what's claimed in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 09:33, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Be bold and make changes as you see fit. See WP:BOLD. If you find references that are incorrect or statements that contradict you can remove them or replace them with the correct text. Don't be scared to step on people's toes. Rincewind42 (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm a current student at Rice University looking to add a section to this page regarding the property rights of women in China. I would describe the developments in property rights since reforms at the turn of the 1900s to current day. I would also rearrange the page. It doesn't make sense to me that almost every section on the page is under the heading "Gender inequality." I plan on deleting this header and moving all the subsections left. I have to reasons for this: One, it is simply not organizationally pleasing. Two, women in China should not be completely defined by their gender inequality. If you have any sources or input I can use on this, let me know! 18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:30, 20 February 2014 (UTC)