Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/National teams

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WikiProject Football (Rated Project-class)
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Formation & Starting XI Stub Proposal[edit]

Might I suggest a formation section for each national and club team that would list the most recent formation and starting XI of a side and therefore the most likely formation and squad for future games. It would almost certainly be a first for any soccer database and would prove invaluable for sports journalists, especially those with no knowledge of the team in question. The only site where I have seen something similar is on the BBC website with the pick your fantasy team section. Also might I further suggest more descriptive and specific information on player articles. For example most articles are quite non specific in their description of players positions eg defender, midfielder. Very few articles mention the exact playing position of a player for either club or country, eg left back wing back defensive half etc. Also the preferred foot of the player. Perhaps someone with a good grasp of programming (not me! lol) could create a template of a starting XI on a pitch that others could paste and use for other teams. I would like to have feedback and ideas on my suggestion or indeed perhaps someone has already thought of this. Please feel free to criticise or endorse it. jamesy (talk) 22:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Confederation Cup Record[edit]

II suggest to add it.

Jerseys / Colors[edit]

I propose adding another section called Jerseys or Colours, which discusses some of the jersey colour choices (e.g. Italy's blue). This is similar to the Colours section for Club teams. Chanheigeorge 01:05, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

That is an excellent idea, I fully endorse it! jamesy (talk) 22:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Referencing templates[edit]

I've created Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/National teams/Referencing templates to keep track of all referencing templates to national football teams, including historical differences.

Regional Flags[edit]

I've added regional/state flags to players of various nations (like hockey national teams pages, see this or this). You can see Brazil page or Italy page. D'you think it's a good idea? For foreigner players I've search where their fathers were born (or their parents with that nationality, eg.: Mauro Camoranesi is Italian because his grandfather came from he has the Marches flag; another case is Kevin Kuranyi) or where they estabilishes with their families (eg: most of the French players came to France estabilishing in Paris suburbs). Let me know if you think this is a good method, or if there are betters; and maybe if there are errors on the flags. I've added regional/state flags to the squad of these national teams: Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Spain. --necronudist 14:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Personally I don't like it, I feel that it is info that should be included in the player's article and not in the article for the national team, but that's just my opinion. -- Elisson Talk 15:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeh I agree, it is irrelavant to the national team article, and serves only as trivia, that clutters up the page. Philc TECI 10:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add that we should remove the flags from all the rosters, for consistency.--Panairjdde 08:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Mmmm it's a little ott for me. I'd rather you try and weave that kind of info into the bio section of an individual player's article. I admire your creativity though! jamesy (talk) 23:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

National squad lists[edit]

I have created a set of templates, Template:Nat fs start, Template:Nat fs player and Template:Nat fs end, to mimic Template:Football squad player &c. for application to the Category:Football tournament squads pages. They have been applied on Football World Cup 1978 (squads) and Football World Cup 1982 (squads) already, and I'll aim to extend this formatting to other squad lists in due course. Any interested party is most welcome to improve the templates and/or extend its use to other squad lists and/or identify more squad lists under the aforementioned category for the same purpose. User:Pkchan/National squad re-formatting may be useful to those who uses regular expression to perform the re-formatting. --Pkchan 04:22, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

How about adding a flag as reference to the club's nation? --Angelo 03:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Like this? Note that the clubflag field is optional.
I am split between whether to include the flag before or after the club name. On one hand displaying it before would make the whole list aligned nicely. On the other hand the convention of the tournment squads (eg 2002 FIFA World Cup (squads) is to show club's nation only if it is not that of the national team's, and showing it after would be more in line with this convention. What do you think? --Pkchan 11:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion the best would be <squad_crest> <squad_name> (<squad_nat>), the more complete and stylish. However, the flag should be on the right of the name, I think. --necronudist 13:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Club crests should not be used for decoration, as they are all (almost all, at least) only available under fair use. – Elisson Talk 14:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should provide just the club's nation flag, regardless any sort of copyright issue about the club crests. I guess that showing crests on the club field is quite unaesthetic. About the convention, I think we should always implement the country field. What about that? --Angelo 01:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
See this page for a mock-up of the national team template with the flag of nation of all clubs shown. Note that I have renamed the parameter as clubnat to avoid ambiguity.
If you lot think fit I'll implement it at {{Nat fs player}} and {{Nat fs g player}}. --Pkchan 03:34, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Looks good! --necronudist 09:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Templated Squads[edit]

He there. I though of changing the current scheme of having an article with all the squads by templates that can be included in that very same article, but can also be used at say, the national team, and a posible 'list of World Cup squads of X national team'. Please, check Argentine squad for the 2006 FIFA World Cup (used as an example at 2006 FIFA World Cup (squads)/Templated), and the talk pages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#The World Cup in other languages in Wikipedia and Talk:2006 FIFA World Cup (squads)#Consistency. Mariano(t/c) 14:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Given the lack of interest for the creation of squad templates to allow cross articles' consistency, I will delete the articles I created for illustrative purposes. Mariano(t/c) 08:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Performance in 2006 World Cup[edit]

There is a movement to add a sort of match-by-match description of the performance of each team partecipating to WC2006.

I think that this is a bad idea, and I suggest moving these sections to their own page, if necessary. In any case, for sake of consistency, this kind of information should be removed from the articles about each national football team. --Panairjdde 17:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's best off if a "current events" flag was added to the article under the respective team's play history in each respective article (The Mexico article is a good example of such formatting). The information provided should be minimal (meaning no nasty tidbits), only showing the final score, major incidents during the game and perhaps (a bit hesitant about this one) their next opponent. And finally, after the world cup 2006 series has ended, remove the current events flag, remove the match-by-match report and make the permanent section as necessary under 2006. Because despite sake of consistency for all articles, such current information does have the merit of providing readers with useful information DURING the series.
See the England article (to show I'm not only being fussy about other teams) and the Korea article.--Sazabel 20:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

International Caps[edit]

Does anyone have a source we can use with up to date international goal/caps per national team or even per player? // Laughing Man 03:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I use 2006 World Cup website [1] for the players caps at the end of the competitions and I added them with recent matches that they played. Another website that is good is RSSSF (The Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation) [2]. Also there are several individual website dedicated to each national team such as [3] for England, [[4] for Italy and many others. - Martin tamb 04:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

recent call up section[edit]

Who dislikes the recent call up section. Kingjeff 18:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Some context here: Kingjeff is calling for the removal of the 'recent call ups' section from the England national football team, as a result of its removal from the Germany national football team. I pointed out that given there were no guidelines at places such as this, using one page as an analogy for the other was pointless.
Anyway, I cannot comment on the German one, but the English one serves to list those players who have been called up the an England squad over the last 12 months, but were not in the latest. It informs the user of those players who are in the 'wider squad', or who have had injuries or a drop in form that has kept them out of the latest squad (which is listed seperatly). It contains no duplication, as Kingjeff has claimed; just further information. --Robdurbar 19:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

you wanted it here, so now it is here. How about you become civilized and let others express what they think? Kingjeff 21:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally I think the section was a bit messy, but I think the section should be retained. Maybe some cleanup on the section by deleting players that already retired or retired from international football. Or maybe deleting the players that has not been called up since World Cup as they could be easily accessed by the reader from the World Cup Squads link/section under the Recent call-up section. Another option maybe by deleting the last call-up time but retaining the players, this will make the table looks easier to read. Or maybe merging all the players from Current squad and Recent call-up section and bold the players name that are currently in squad, but this options would make the list far longer. - Martin tamb 04:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Some good points. I believe that up till August 2006 the recent call ups and latest squad were together as one; I'm not sure why they were split, though I seem to recall that there was a reason. At the moment, offically reitred players are deleted (if you're thinking of David Beckham, he's not retired internaitonally. But Sol Campbell has, and he's not there). --Robdurbar 09:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the talk here, here and here are relevant; as they indicate how the section was formulated (on the English page at least). Robdurbar 09:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I referring the retired players to Zinedine Zidane (in France national football team page) and several others players in various national team page. As for England national football team, I personally think that the layout seems confusing with the addition of debut column. It makes the table looks complicated. I prefer the layout used in Italy national football team, France national football team, etc. -- Martin tamb 09:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that is good. Robdurbar 12:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Full teams only?[edit]

Many of the international teams pages contain a lot of data about achievements of U23, U21 and younger national selections. Additionally, there are many tournaments (Olympics, Pan-American games) that are only for age restricted sides. Some countries have pages for their "junior" teams, many do not. I think this cries out for a more consistent approach. My preference would be that only the achievements of the full team should be recorded on the articles in this "family", and that any nation whose underage teams have a suignificant record should have such a page specific to that purpose. Anyone else? Kevin McE 13:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree. There already seems to be some sort of undiscussed consensus that under-20 (or under-21 in Europe) teams are allowed to have separate pages and thus all such info should go there. Younger teams than that, I'm not sure it is notable enough to include anything at all about them, except for the info already present in youth tournament articles. The problem is the later Olympic tournaments, as the teams playing there really do not compete anywhere else. I think it is ok to have the Olympic record in the main article, with a note explaining the Olympic football team composition rules. – Elisson • T • C • 13:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
(after edit conflict) Sounds sensible, though the Olympics are slightly more complex, as they used to be more prestigious than they are now and were not age restricted. Oldelpaso 13:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The Olympics football tournament has not been open to full national teams from Europe and South America for more than 70 years, and has been unrestricted for other countries for only 2 editions in that period. To be equitable, this cannot be a matter of occasional edits to particular pages; there needs to be a consensus as to whether and how Olympic achievements should be shown on nft pages: my opinion is that only unrestricted selection events (1936 and before, + 1984 and 1988 for non UEFA/CONCACAF countries) should be included, and a footnote should be available to explain the absence of the record of this achievement where there have been medals won in restricted years. I suspect that this would be more easily achieved if Olympic records were to be included in the infobox, rather than in a separate medal box. Kevin McE 23:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Current squads and recent call ups[edit]

I am prompted to raise a query by the situation at Republic of Ireland where, until recently, 45 players were listed as being in the current squad: this at a time immediately before 2 international matches when there was a group of c. 25 at a national team gathering. Does it actually make any sense to describe anybody as being in a "current" squad when the next match is several weeks away, and the issue of what players might be selected is a matter of speculation? Is the "current" squad actually encyclopedic, or is it recentism to want to list it? Are recent (but not current) call ups any more notable than those who were in the squad in 1984 (to pick a year at random)? Kevin McE 01:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Recent results/Forthcoming Fixtures/Recent Call Ups/Current squads etc etc etc WP:Recentism seems to be running unchecked on these pages. Kevin McE 19:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Biggest win/defeat[edit]

Hi! Unaware of this 'standard' template I made an edit to Portugal national football team] differentiating them by friendly/competitive matches. I did the same for the 1st international match. User:Martin tamb called my attention to this so I'll take it here. I suggest that when the largest win/loss is in a friendly match then the largest one at a competitive match is also included. A friendly is rather different from competitive matches, and making history/statistics including them may skew it, and weaken their value. As to including the first competitive match, I would do it, but I think it is much less important than the previous. It may be the opposite, really. It might be a more important info to know which other team was chosen - and chose - to play a friendly with. On a side note, looking at the template I a see a 'trivia' section, so I also suggest that it is excluded, according to Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles. Enjoy! - Nabla 15:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I believe that, that a "friendly" is only a customary name for a match which is not part of a full "tournament". An international game is the same if it is the final of the world cup, or a match between the 2 worst teams in the world playing for nothing. The fact that goals and caps won in "friendlies" are counted seems to support this idea. As well as that, even "B" Class internationals (which often had top level club sides for example Manchester United vs Australia and were popular in the 80's) are included in the players for the international team goal and cap tallies. Macktheknifeau 14:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I would seriously doubt your claim that appearances in B internationals and in games against non-international teams are counted in a payer's tally of international caps. For exapmle, Steven Taylor (footballer) played for England B against Albania last month, but is not regarded as having been capped for England. Kevin McE 20:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm just wondering if only full/FIFA recognized internationals are placed for these in nft articles? I ask this because for Japan for example, their biggest win was an Olympic Games qualifier in 1967 and RSSSF says that FIFA didn't count the match as a full international. It's also confirmed so since that match isn't found on's fixtures and results page. This question would also be applicable to national team's first international match. Banana Fingers (talk) 06:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

If only what FIFA considers to be a valid match were so clear cut. You correctly state that FIFA does not list Japan's Olympic matches in the 1960s, and yet the very same page lists their Olympic medal in 1068, in an era when full teams from Asia could participate. It would seem churlish to limit first international matches to those played under the auspices of FIFA when many countries were playing before the formation of FIFA. Kevin McE (talk) 21:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Olympic Games[edit]

I want to ask if we are supposed to include in National teams' honours any achievement in the Olympic Games tournaments, since the teams which are contested there, are not the official national teams. - Sthenel 15:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to raise the same discussion above, under the heading Full teams only? but with little response. As I state their, achievements of restricted teams, IMHO, should be in articles specific to those restricted teams. (I've taken the liberty of correcting your apostrophe, as the issue affects more than one national team: blame the teacher in me) Kevin McE 18:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm confused but I think that national football team pages should include data for the full team only. - Sthenel 19:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Last game and next game[edit]

Greetings! Wouldn't it be better if in the article of each national football team (apart from the first game, biggest win and largest defeat) it included the last game and the next game? What do you think? User:Cymuforsal 22:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

As already said, that is a clear use of recentism. Its disregarded in an encyclopedia. Not needed! Domiy (talk) 00:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Noted players[edit]

How does one decide if a player is notable, and how does one reference it? Fasach Nua (talk) 08:54, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Such sections are usually discouraged on national team pages. I had it for my national team page (Croatia) and after it underwent peer review and FA nomination, it was said to be discounted as it is based on POV in most situations. Ensure that the page lists top goalscorers and cap leaders, but other notable players who aren't in that category really don't deserve to be mentioned in a seperate list. Unless, perhaps, you find some specific and appropriate criteria for inclusion, which nobody has managed to think of to date. It's best to leave out these sections. Domiy (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

As per these comments, those at this and previous discussions at WP:FOOTY talk, and the policies of no original research, neutral point of view and verifiability, I will purge these sections from nft articles next weekend unless there is overwhelming strong reason to the contrary. Kevin McE (talk) 09:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Results & Fixtures and Rosters & Call-ups[edit]

I've noticed a lot of talk about recentism on this page so I want to pose a question. Should national team pages include any information on recent and future matches, and if so then to what extent? It's been the norm on the United States page to list matches from the previous six months as well as all scheduled matches in the schedule section; the same criteria is used to list players in the current squad and call-ups section. The England page provides the same information with a 12-month standard applied. The Brazil page has a list of all the matches the team has played since Dunga became the manager in 2006; it's quite a list, and it seems very superfluous to me. The Brazilian roster lists call-ups from the previous 12 months. Others such as Scotland have no schedule given of any kind, but that page uses the 12-month criteria in its roster section as well. Is there any standard for this type of information? I can understand the argument for both inclusion and exclusion. JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 15:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposed change: Trivia for "Squad"[edit]

Trivia sections are discouraged by Wikipedia, and yet this page encourages them. Isn't this a tad idiotic? However, most football articles include squad listings. Perhaps the "Trivia" should be replaced by the "Squad" section.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 23:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Demonyms: Spain team vs. Spanish team.[edit]

Why do the national football team articles not use demonyms, e.g. "Spain national football team" [sic] instead of "Spanish national football team"? The former looks like a bad translation, while the demonym looks like the correct English as seen in the first sentence "The Spanish national football team represents Spain". Google news lists 156 for the former, but 409 for the demonym. -- Jeandré (talk), 2010-02-19t10:49z

El Salvador national football team[edit]

Could anyone help me fix this article for it could be upgraded to GA or FA? Thank you. Jaime070996 02:11, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Penalty goals[edit]

If a football player scores a penalty goal in a penalty shoot-out, does it count as a goal (in the caps and GOALS)? Jaime070996 02:12, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

No it doesn't. As it says in Penalty shootout (association football) (albeit without a reference) "Goals scored during the shootout are not included in the final score, nor are they added to the goalscoring records of the players involved." Oldelpaso (talk) 11:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Current Squad (again)[edit]

The MOS does not show the current squad list and appropriate consensus template for such {{nat fs g player}} series, so I have boldly added it. It is de-facto consensus to have the current squad (as almost all national team pages have such a section) and various discussions at WP:FOOTY indicate this is the preferred template. Without this in the MOS sample page it is harder to argue for consistancy from rogue editors.--ClubOranjeT 00:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Good move, although I'd far rather not have the blue bar between positions (some players are more flexible: this isn't netball whereby players are restricted in what part of the pitch they occupy). However, can we establish a norm on how long we allow a so-called current squad to remain displayed when a team is inactive, as sometimes happens for several year in the case of less competitive nations (someone recently tried to publish the current squad of a team who haven't played since 2003) Kevin McE (talk) 07:24, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm easy either way on the blue bar thing. Last one I did didn't have numbers in the ref, just had it broken by position (New Zealand women's national football team if anyone is interested) so I simply duped that, but I'm as happy to see them listed as one group by the numbers--ClubOranjeT 08:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Proposed change: consistency in article title gendering[edit]

Biggest win / Biggest defeat[edit]

How about we delete these entries from the standard national team templates? They seem like the sort of unimportant trivia that are discouraged from inclusion in the infobox. See Help:Infobox: "Infobox templates should not be used for details that are too trivial to include in the article body." Barryjjoyce (talk) 06:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

This discussion has been moved to the WP:FOOTY talk page. If you have any comments on this proposal, please leave them on the Footy talk page, not here. Thanks. Barryjjoyce (talk) 02:40, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


I propose adding the following note to the History section. (The WP:USCITIES article contains a similar note).

Note: History sections can become very long with more detail than appropriate for a general overview. If the overall article and the history section become quite lengthy, much of the history materal can be moved to a History of _ main article (using the main template), with the main article containing just a WP:SUMMARY of the history.

If you are wondering what the team articles would look like, several team articles — e.g., United States, England — already have separate History articles and a shorter history summary on the main team page. Barryjjoyce (talk) 02:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Asst Coach[edit]

I suggest removing the Asst Coach field from the national team infobox template. Assistant coaches get relatively little coverage compared to other key items in the infobox (head coach, captain, FIFA ranking, etc.) Barryjjoyce (talk) 23:37, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Infobox image[edit]

Why do all national team articles have as first image a badge? I think it should be of a squad, either current or from a golden era. The badge is a good image for the association, and indeed all the association articles I checked have also the badge as its first image. Surely the reader expects to see players wearing the typical kit. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC)