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Requests for amendment

Use this section:

To request changes to remedies or enforcement provisions, for example to make them stronger or deal with unforeseen problems.
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Using the format provided by the template, try to show exactly what you want amended and state your reasoning for the change in 1000 words or fewer, citing supporting diffs where necessary. Although it should be kept short, you may add to your statement in future if needed as the word limit is not rigidly enforced. List any other users affected or involved. Sign your statement with ~~~~.
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Request to amend prior case: Falun Gong

Initiated by Asdfg12345 at 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Falun Gong arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Asdfg12345 (talk · contribs) banned from editing Falun Gong and related article or template content for six months. See AE thread. Sandstein 22:50, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Asdfg12345 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Enric Naval (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment action requested

I argue that the sanction was mistaken and ask that it be rescinded.

Statement by Asdfg12345

Sandstein said he banned me from editing Falun Gong articles for three reasons: “edit-warring (less aggressively than some of his opponents, but still), single purpose account (editing only FG topics) and advocacy (editing only to present FG more favorably)”

I will respond to these points with explanation and diffs.

1: On the edit warring charge.
I have had a policy of 1RR for a long time now. I think the only time I broke it was shown in the complaint against me; I crossed 1RR a couple of times then. That was under the circumstance that the other editor had ignored a consensus, derived from an RfC, which supported what I had suggested from the beginning. I felt justified, but in hindsight would be more careful. I’m not aware of any other edit warring on my part—none was presented in the original AE—and it is my intention to maintain the 1RR policy and not revert at all when it can be avoided. I try to always discuss things cogently and civilly. I do not edit war, do not intend to edit war, and know edit warring is bad.

2: On the single purpose account charge.
Since being banned I have taken a broader interest in other topics related to Chinese politics and governance. Whether I edit Falun Gong articles or not, I will continue to edit other articles unrelated to Falun Gong.

I note that the page on SPAs is not a policy item, but an essay. Of course, Wikipedia is not for advocacy, and advocates coming to push their POVs should be shown the door. I am here to help build this encyclopedia on the topics that I know about and that interest me, not as an advocate of an outside cause. I know the rules and play by them, and I want to build professional articles on the subjects I edit. (Though I’ve also been accused of “wikilawyering” when citing policy or providing sources to support my views.)

3: On the advocacy charge.
I do not and have not edited only to present Falun Gong more favourably. Most of my ideas for improvement, and many of my edits, are not structured along the lines of favourable/unfavourable, which I think is most often an unproductive dichotomy for categorising edits or editors. That said, it may appear that many of my edits make Falun Gong look favourable because a lot of the information which paints Falun Gong in an unfavourable light, whether reliably sourced or not, or in accord with due weight or not, is already in the articles, or has already been added by other editors. Making Falun Gong look favourable is not my purpose for editing Wikipedia, and I of course know the job of Wikipedia isn’t to paint Falun Gong in a favourable light—I don’t support including material just because it is perceived favourable to Falun Gong, and excluding material just because it is perceived as unfavourable. Making this accusation has become a common way of deflecting attention from the issues at hand onto the individual raising the problem.

Here is a small collection of edits meant to counter the idea that I’m editing Wikipedia to promote a pro-Falun Gong point of view:

Here I removed some effusive praise for Falun Gong that was inappropriate for the lead of an article. Here a paragraph of defense of Falun Gong’s founder’s financial situation.
Here I reverted what appeared to me an attempt to replace material critical or derisive of Falun Gong’s teachings with material that did not include such remarks. This was cited by Enric Naval as an example of how I “remove criticism,” but the opposite is true. I initially wrote that section summarising the views disparaging of Falun Gong's teachings.
Here is one edit in a section that I wrote about the debate about psychiatric abuse of Falun Gong practitioners in China, including the voices that were more sympathetic to the stance of the Chinese Communist Party. Previously I had also outlined the CCP's claims against Falun Gong, including phrases like "...the practice has exploited spiritual cultivation to engage its practitioners in seditious politics. They also allege that manipulation via their "lies and fallacies", Falun Gong "caused needless deaths of large numbers of practitioners"" etc. none of which I considered unusual to have done.)
Here I got a barnstar from my sparring partner, Ohconfucius. (He must have figured I can’t be all bad, then).
Here an editor uninvolved in the Falun Gong pages took the initiative to defend me in a discussion: "I know the Asdfg12345 has edited things other than this; while his edits may be 90% FLG-related, I know he's also worked on other general Chinese culture pages (not to mention he once AfD'ed Masanjia Labor Camp, which is not something you'd expect from someone who is a blind FLG follower, given that pretty much all of these RTL-related articles are anti-China")
Here are some of the edits, I made to the main Falun Gong article before I was banned. These edits were cited as an example of how I’m a POV-pusher when I numbered them all and asked for discussion before they be removed. They were removed without discussion. Then I added them back, and they stuck (above are the second round). It’s not that I only put in things I believe. I don’t believe some of that is true, some of it depicts Falun Gong negatively too, which I have never opposed, but it’s from reliable sources and in that context is relevant.
Here are some of the recent proposals I have made (while banned from editing those pages) for improving the pages. I haven’t put on a special show of neutrality since being banned to curry favour. If that is pro-Falun Gong advocacy then I have a lot more reflection to do than I thought. Several of those posts were simple exercises in research, like finding how many sources categorise Falun Gong as "qigong," and how many as "new religious movement" etc. Some of the ideas were ignored anyway.
The above are just a sample after a quick scan of my contributions to Falun Gong articles.

Final remarks
Those are just some examples. I wrote a long response to the arguments presented by Enric Naval that attempted to show that I am a tendentious editor who lavishes praise on Falun Gong and deletes anything perceived negative. Most of the complaint and belated response is straightforward, I think, except the second complaint. That is more complex. The quickest way to sum it up, though, is to see the two RfCs I started, and note that the opinion of the uninvolved party was exactly what I had been saying. There was a second RfC because Simonm223 ignored the first.

When writing this, I made a choice to say little about the editing dynamics on the pages, the issues surrounding Falun Gong and how they may relate to Wikipedia, perceived biases on the part of some editors, which usually dominate discussion on this subject. Based on some of the unwelcoming remarks to newcomers though, I think the environment will have to improve to avoid further litigation.

I think my being banned was a mistake, and I hope above to have shown why. I have learned from the experience, and will continue to cultivate a more nuanced approach to editing Wikipedia, including doing better with research, and editing a wider variety of articles. I feel like I have gotten some perspective in this month, thought about the issues, and so decided to request an amendment. Please advise if further evidence would be helpful in deciding my case. Thank you for your time.

Respectfully, --Asdfg12345 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some thoughtful remarks on the subject from an outside editor: [1][2]

Steve Smith and SirFozzie, the discretionary sanctions page says: "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines." I was given no such opportunity. My dispute is, or was originally, mainly with the substance of the charges, and I responded to them as best I could above (it would be of some small comfort if I knew that the people assessing this had checked the diffs and considered whether the three problems actually existed or not). However, this procedural point is rather important if justice is to be served. The ban was made under the circumstance that I was not "given a warning" or "counseled on specific steps that he or she can take." That means it violated the terms under which these discretionary sanctions are supposed to be imposed.
Maunus, I have never meant to give anyone mental grief. I think {user|PelleSmith} stopped editing the pages after encountering the intransigence of several anti-Falun Gong editors. Making RfCs and Noticeboard posts are legitimate ways of attempting to resolve disputes, as far as I understand. I've just tried to edit and discuss issues on Wikipedia in good faith, backed up by strong research. I hold that in nearly all cases disputes can be brought back to the reliable sources and resolved through good research. Some of the issues involved in this subject are complex and specific, and it takes some time to resolve. As far as I understand I have followed all the rules and been civil nearly all the time. Should I be banned for assiduity? --Asdfg12345 12:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wish I could understand how this was a reasonable use of admin discretion, given the evidence above, and lack of evidence for the opposing views which were the reasons for the ban. I find it extremely confusing that arbitrators think my case is not only "comfortably within the reach of enforcement discretion" but that the "decision appears reasonable" as well. And there is no way to actually determine whether they have evaluated the case on its own merits or not; they fail to comment on the evidence or elaborate on the rationale of the case.

Sandstein's rationale for banning me makes three claims that are provable/disprovable. They are specific claims, the truth value of which can be evaluated objectively. I was said to have edit warred, but the only evidence for that is breaking one revert of the same content within 24 hours, after having sought a third party opinion that was ignored; I was said to only edit Falun Gong articles, something that is allowed, but my contributions indicate otherwise anyway; I was said to have edited only to make Falun Gong look favourable, but a string of diffs above also indicate that this is not the case. At the moment the process is slightly bewildering, and it's completely unclear as to what, precisely, I have done wrong. I have been given no ideas about how I'm supposed to "improve my editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines," since no specific problems have been pointed out. If the arguments were a bit more slippery, it would be easier to justify them. For example, that I'm an inveterate Falun Gong apologist no matter what I do or say, editing other articles is just covering my tracks, and the times when I edit against Falun Gong, that's also to cover my tracks. Then I would be a class enemy. In that case, I wouldn't have much to say; it would be an impenetrable argument. But they are three quite specific claims, and I believe I have shown how they are untrue above. At the moment it just seems like I'm being treated as a class enemy without that being openly stated.

I suppose this format is very limited for being able to understand the processing of all the information that I presume is going on in people's brains.

My other concern, though, is that the major procedural flaw in how this case was decided still appears to have been overlooked: I was not "given a warning" before sanctions were imposed. The page outlining discretionary sanctions mentions this twice. Whatever the merits of the decision, I do not understand how sanctions which didn't follow the rules of how they were meant to be applied can be upheld.

I could not think of a more effective process for making someone get a sense that their rights had been tossed aside and due process ignored. If we want to carry the working logic forward, given that I am such a bad egg who would not even benefit from a clear explanation of how they can improve before being banned, or precisely what they have done wrong, or even deserve to be accorded due process, why not just ban me from Falun Gong articles forever? Why would six months make any difference? And why should I be able to edit the talk pages? At least then there would be some consistency in the autocracy. Whatever the decision, to whoever can give a clear, reasoned, response as to how Sandstein's three arguments are still valid in light of my response, and answer my complaints about due process, I would be grateful.--Asdfg12345 03:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By "class enemy," broadly speaking I mean someone who is to be punished for who they are, not for what they have done. I say that because it appears to be the most useful model for understanding the current situation in my view, based on the discussion and respect accorded to evidence and process so far. --Asdfg12345 03:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion (posted from SirFozzie's talk)

I won't apply for any kind of community appeal, and I'm sorry to have wasted your time, my time, and the time of other editors and admins. I saw an exchange between Shell Kinney and Olaf Stephanos which makes the situation very clear. I had thought that the policies were like a book of law that you just had to stick to and keep within. But it's actually much more about perceptions, social capital, and branding. And nonconformists may have extraordinary measures applied to them. Never mind when propaganda comes from editors who are integrated into Wikipedia, and "outsiders" wish to fix things and explicitly follow all relevant rules when doing so. If you are seen as an advocate, especially for a perceived NRM (but not for science) you are not welcome. It doesn't matter if you are reasonable and law-abiding or not. This is probably just a necessary evil and compromise given Wikipedia's openness and potential for real bad guys to exploit the system. I maintain that I am not one of the bad guys, have kept strictly within policy, and have only ever wished for a professional treatment of Falun Gong. I have been polite nearly all the time, and frequently compromised, shared ideas, and worked with whoever was interested to build the pages. I do not want to see a whitewashing or exclusion of criticism. But doing Wikipedia properly means no propaganda, stringent sourcing, and inclusion of every significant perspective. All that is explicitly within Wikipedia's policies. I am not sure who will have the mettle to challenge the editors dedicated to promoting a negative view of Falun Gong - and their sympathisers - who are seen as part of the community. The silent consent to these ideologically motivated activities allows a page to go from this (11,200 words) to this (2,500 words).--Asdfg12345 23:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

I'm not sure whether, in view of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Appeal, this is the right venue for an appeal of a discretionary sanction, but if arbitrators would like my opinion about this request, I'll give it. Sandstein 06:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Enric Naval

This request belongs to WP:AE.

The content disputes belong to the talk pages of articles (and, for the record, I will reply much better to requests about content that ~~are not filled with bad faith assumptions~~ cannot be easily interpreted[3] as being full of bad faith assumptions about how I'm trying to smear Falun Gong for some unspecified reason). --Enric Naval (talk) 22:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Olaf Stephanos

I will give my brief comment. Asdfg12345 has worked constructively on the Falun Gong articles for several years. He has always been polite towards other editors, and has taken a methodical approach to NPOV, ensuring that no relevant point of view is left out and that sources are given fair treatment. His insistence on high-quality sources has been categorical, and he has repeatedly made use of peer-reviewed journals and other reputable academic publications.

I am afraid that the involved administrators do not fully understand the delicate balance of the overall situation. The neutrality of the Falun Gong articles has seriously degraded after Asdfg12345 was blocked. As many of us have observed, this is not a simple matter of "neutral-minded" editors seeking to honestly work towards an article that gives fair and due weight to all relevant viewpoints—and who follow neutrality as methodology—against "biased" SPAs who only work to "promote their cause". Indeed, practically none of the editors who have been involved with the Falun Gong articles has taken a totally cool, dispassionate approach to the subject matter. This is partly due to the editing environment and its long-standing disputes that have never been resolved properly, in spite of numerous attempts. Yet, among the group of editors who have been involved with the Falun Gong articles over the last few years, Asdfg12345's track record is among the very cleanest. He has proactively initiated rational and argumentative discussion, and I feel that this may be one reason why some would rather see him blocked. Asdfg12345 has kept up the true spirit of Wikipedia against those who have a preconceived notion of how the Falun Gong articles should read, and who fail to regard the true depth of high-ranking research out there. Moreover, there are always those who'd rather cut the corners than engage in real discussion.

My opinion is that the Arbitration Committee, or other Wikipedia officials in positions of comparable power, should put in the effort to investigate the situation from a pragmatic perspective. I would argue that Asdfg12345's case is too susceptible to an individual administrator's impression of the subject matter as such; in other words, I strongly feel that the case has not been evaluated on its own merits. The produced evidence does not warrant a block, and a six month topic ban is simply inconceivable. Just take a look at Asdfg12345's edit history: it can only prove that he is here to truly construct an encyclopedia. Even though his focus has been on the Falun Gong articles and related subjects in the past, his contributions have been extremely solid, balanced, well-sourced, and transparent. He is a real expert, and these articles and their informed readers sorely miss him. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 14:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Comment by previously involved user User:Maunus

Having previously involved in the diting of Falun Gong related articles I was acquainted with User:asdfg and his/her editing style. User:asdfg is very polite and forthcoming and never stoops to civilty violations or other kinds of overtly abusive or disruptive behaviour. However, I think there is every reason to maintain the ban on the reason of asdfg's being a clear instance of a Single Purpose Account - of the most tenacious variety. I arrived at Falun Gong with out any preconceived notions (except an interest in presenting the issue in a academically adequate manner from the POV of a sociologist of religion (if anything I was prepared to possibly have to defend the viewpoint of Falun Gong as minority religion as these are often prone to attacks from "anti-cult editors")) - I was soon so completely exhausted by the constant pressure and civil disruption (in the form of disregard for consensus, continued argument over issues already determined by consensus and different kinds of vexatious litigation (in the form of rfc's, etc.)) from asdfg and other openly pro-Falun Gong editors that I decided that continuing work on that article was not worth the costs to my mental health - I know that several other editors have had similar experiences. I believe that topic banning asdfg from Falun Gong related articles is the right way to protect wikipedias integrity and the mental health of its neutral-minded editors. In short, I believe that no amendment to this arbitration decision is required or warranted·Maunus·ƛ· 14:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

This should go to WP:AE, but at an initial examination this looks to me like a reasonable exercise of the discretion granted to administrators under the January 19, 2010 case amendment. Steve Smith (talk) 03:06, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Steve Smith. We give administrators working in the area of AE reasonable discretion to interpret arbcom remedies. SirFozzie (talk) 12:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well within the realm of administrator discretion and from review, looks to be a reasonable decision as well. Shell ^babelfish 14:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with my colleagues that the decision appears reasonable and, in any case, is comfortably within the reach of enforcement discretion. — Coren ^(talk) 17:34, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Asmahan

Initiated by Nefer Tweety (talk) at 13:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Asmahan arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Request concerning Supreme Deliciousness

User requesting amendment: Nefer Tweety (talk)

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Nefer Tweety (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan; Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) is prohibited from making changes to any article about a person with respect to the ethnicity or nationality of that person for one year. Should this restriction be violated, Supreme Deliciousness may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.; Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Supreme Deliciousness is limited to one revert per page per week (except for undisputable vandalism and biographies of living persons violations), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page. Should the user exceed this limit or fail to discuss a content reversion, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

SD is soliciting a meat puppet to do his editing on Asmahan where he is restrcited by Arbitration case.
SD found guilty of meat puppetry and violating the arbitration restriction.
SD places an open invitation to meat puppetry, again to evade his ban to which no other than Nableezy complies.
Nableezy rushes to peform SD's edits using SD's specific references.
Motion granting SD privilege to edit Talk pages of biographies with respect to ethnicity and nationality is voted down leaving SD with no such privilege.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 violations of 1RR through disruptive strike-through markups as a way around his revert restriction.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

Warning by user:CactusWriter "to stop editing Asmahan while on probation.", yet SD continues to edit Asmahan (3 times) in these diffs.
Warning by user:Lankiveil told SD to stay "far, far, far away from the Asmahan article for the time being, if you don't want this unpleasantness to escalate further", yet SD continues to edit Asmahan (3 times) like this one.
Warning by user:Lankiveil told SD to "avoid making any edits whatsoever that could even remotely be considered to be in violation of your topic ban.", yet SD makes those edits in reference to the nationality and ethnicity of persons: like this one, like this one, like this one.
This and this warnings by user:Wizardman Wizardman explained that SD should avoid any possible borderline violations, like this one. SD makes the same sort of edits (3 times) to the Asmahan like this one.

Amendment action requested: Extend Supreme Deliciousness's ban to include talk pages and associated pages as per CactusWriter's suggestion, and to prohibit Supreme Deliciousness from interfering with other users' edits using disruptive markups such as strike-throughs.

Additional comments by editor filing amendment request

Supreme Deliciousness is acting up again. He's filing an arbitration enforcement request against me, when he is clearly the guilty party. He's become too crafty at fooling the arbitrators and the system with his "borderline" violations and endless complaints that are a waste of time for all involved.
On 30 December 2009, User:CactusWriter filed this AN/I report against SD for meat puppetry. SD was soliciting User:Nableezy to edit Asmahan on his behalf as a way around his ban from the Asmahan arbitration case. SD was found to have violated his ban and was blocked very briefly and clearly insufficiently.
SD is now doing the same thing again on Omar Sharif; he is posting an open invitation to meat puppetry that immediately gets accepted by Nableezy. Again, he is posting the references for Nableezy on the Talk page and Nableezy is doing the editing using SD references, again as a way around his ban.
SD is prohibited from influencing the nationality or ethnicity of a biography on Wikipedia. Not only is Omar Sharif a biography, it was also part of the Asmahan case as SD concurs and again, SD is using a meat puppet to do his editing of ethnicity and nationality in violation of his ban.
In spite of all the warnings that SD has received against editing Asmahan, from CactusWriter, Lankiveil, and Wizardman, SD continues to edit Asmahan in a way that influences her ethnicity and nationality. more specifically, he has been the reason for the edit wars on both Asmahan (and now, Omar Sharif), as was pointed out in Cactus's complaint on AN/I.
SD is not permitted to edit the Talk pages of biographies to influence their ethnicity or nationality. This privilege was voted down here. The privilege of editing the Talk pages was taken away from SD and therefore his edits on the Talk page of Omar Sharif were a violation.
It is clear that Nableezy is using SD's specific sources to edit the article for SD, as per SD's original request on Asmahan. SD did not have to repeat the request Nableezy; Nableezy is complying anyway.
It is clear that SD and Nableezy have learned from the meat puppetry lesson of December 2009 when they got caught, and they are now doing it in a more subtle way.
I ask you to please take action, this time to extend Supreme Deliciousness's ban to include talk pages and associated pages, and to prohibit Supreme Deliciousness from interfering with other users' edits using distruptive markups such as strike-throughs, since he has been violating his edit bans so many times. Nefer Tweety (talk) 13:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Supreme Deliciousness

Nefer Tweety filed this complaint at the enforcement page, my and other peoples reply's to these false allegations can be read there, no violation against anything was found, and it was closed. [4]

There has been no meatpuppet invitation, it was a misunderstanding. A neutral (Egyptian) editor had seen the arguing between me and AC and left this post at my talkpage when I first requested the arbitration. He tried to help and fix the dispute so that was why I contacted him and asked for his help. So I asked this neutral (Egyptian) editor to get involved and told him that it was totally up to him what he wanted to do, and I was misunderstood by the admin, and I have already been blocked for that edit, almost 2 months ago: [5]

At the Omar Sharif article, What have I done? While the Nefer Tweety account edit warred with numerous editors removing sourced info: 1 2 3 4 5 times.

And carrying out Arab Cowboys sockpuppets edits at several articles, for example: [6][7][8] Look at this and compare: [9] 30 edits in between, made by several editors and bots, but he doesn't care.

I have added sources to the Sharif talkpage: [10] Since that, several editors have expressed support for those sources and themselves added his Lebanese background to the article, Users Funkmonk [11], Leabnese Bebe [12], Lanternix [13] and Nableezy [14]. I have not told them to do anything. Am I supposed to get a harder restriction on me for adding sources to a talkpage? Have I violated my topic ban and restriction? or the principles of the case? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The Nefer Tweety account had yesterday filed yet another enforcement request and he received a warning for it and it was immediately closed, he has also been blocked by an admin yesterday for carrying out Arab Cowboys sockpuppet edits.[15] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:03, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

This amendment request was malformed. I've fixed it somewhat. - Mailer Diablo 21:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

Comment - Nefer Tweety, your point #6 is incorrect: that a remedy including a specific allowance for talk page editing was rejected does not mean that talk page editing is prohibited. What matters is the motions that were passed, and none of those restrict SD's editing of talk pages. I'll comment more on this request in the next couple of days, once I've mulled some things over. Steve Smith (talk) 03:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like the restrictions in the case were designed to prevent edit warring. Using the talk page to present sources and having other editors review and take responsibility for changes seems appropriate. Shell ^babelfish 14:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Franco-Mongol alliance

Initiated by El on ka at 07:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cases affected

Franco-Mongol alliance arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
PHG arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

# Remedy 1: "PHG (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to medieval or ancient history for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion."

Remedy 2: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG#PHG's topic ban is narrowed and extended: "The original topic ban on editing articles related to medieval or ancient history is hereby rescinded. PHG (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, and Hellenistic India—all broadly defined. This topic ban will last for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion."

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Per Honor et Gloria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Angusmclellan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (ArbCom-assigned mentor of PHG)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG#PHG's topic ban is narrowed and extended
Original topic ban expired ~~in 2009~~, on February 2, 2010, so I am requesting an extension of the topic ban for another year, due to continuing disruption at Franco-Mongol alliance and related articles

Statement by Elonka

The original topic ban was on PHG (talk · contribs), a user who has since changed his name to Per Honor et Gloria (talk · contribs). His original topic ban, placed in March 2008, prevented him from making any edits in the entire topic area of medieval or ancient history for one year. This ban was extended in April 2008 to also require that PHG use only English-language sources, and use a mentor (Angusmclellan) to assist with sourcing. Further problems were reported in July 2008.[16] See Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance for a long list of statements from established editors who were expressing concerns about PHG's use of sources. PHG has two specific POVs that he's been pushing, for over two years now: (1) That the Mongols "conquered" Jerusalem in 1300, and (2) that there was an alliance between the Europeans and the Mongols. Actual mainstream history, is that Jerusalem may have been subject to a Mongol raid at one point, but was not conquered; and that though there were attempts towards alliance, the attempts were unsuccessful. The Arbitration Committee investigated PHG's behavior in 2007/2008, agreed that PHG was misusing sources, and banned him from the medieval history topic area for a year.

~~Officially, the topic ban expired in 2009, but now that the Franco-Mongol alliance article is up for a Good Article Nomination,~~ In December 2008, PHG filed a new case, requesting that his topic ban be lifted. The result was that the topic ban was narrowed to just articles related to the Crusades and the Mongol Empire, but was extended for another year. This latter topic ban expired on February 2, 2010, and PHG (Per Honor et Gloria) has resurfaced, and is resuming old tactics: Cherry-picking sources, pushing the same old POVs, and attempting to restore the article to the kinds of things it said back in 2007 that led to the ArbCom case in the first place.[17] Of particular concern is that he is de-railing the GA nom,[18][19] by dragging back up his "there was an alliance" POV, insisting that the lead sentence of the article be re-written to say that there was an alliance. This is making GA review extremely complex, as we don't want to have to re-debate this entire thing over again.

One of the things that makes PHG's POV-pushing so damaging, is that he (usually) tends to stay very civil, and his edits always look well-sourced. However, when experienced editors go in and actually look at the information he's trying to add, it becomes clear that PHG is not fairly representing what the sources say, and that he's also pulling in questionable sources, such as fragments of statements from works that are centuries-old,[20] or fragments from footnotes of books that are from long out-of-date historians, or works that are of unclear provenance.[21] Repeated requests to PHG to desist have been made at the article talkpage, and at his user talkpage, by both myself (Elonka),[22][23] and PHG's mentor, Angusmclellan (talk · contribs).[24] PHG promised Angus in email that the problems were over, but then continued with disruptive actions,[25] which are escalating at the GA nom.[26] I did file a request at WP:AE to see if the ban extension could be handled by community consensus, but the thread was closed as non-actionable,[27] so I am bringing it here, and asking that the topic ban be reinstated for at least another year. Thanks, --El on ka 07:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(addendum) My apologies for confusion about case name. There have been two cases related to PHG: Franco-Mongol alliance, and then Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG. I had completely forgotten about the second case (it closed right around the time I went on a several month wikibreak). I've tried to rework the amendment to reflect the more recent (PHG) case, but kept the title of the amendment as "Franco-Mongol alliance" to keep the other links working. I have no objection if the clerks wish to re-name things for consistency, and sincerely apologize for any confusion. --El on ka 22:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what seems to me a fairly clear example of the problem: PHG was under a topic ban from editing articles related to the Crusades and Mongol history. The nexus of the dispute is the Franco-Mongol alliance article, where he continues to try push an "alliance" POV, and misuse sources.

His latest topic ban expired on February 2.
On February 3, he created a new coatrack article at Timurid relations with Europe.
On February 4, he basically copy/pasted most of the new article into the Franco-Mongol alliance, with a {{main}} link to his new article.[28] This is a standard tactic of PHG's, creating a new article first, and then trying to use it to bolster POV information that he's adding to some other article, making it look like there was already an article on that topic on Wikipedia.
When the sources were actually checked, and the unsuitable ones removed (PHG continues to cherry-pick elements from long out-of-date sources), the information he was attempting to add basically boiled down to the current single sentence in the Franco-Mongol alliance article: "In the early 1400s, Timur (Tamerlane), resumed Timurid relations with Europe, attempting to form an alliance against the Egyptian Mamluks and the Ottoman Empire, and engaged in communications with Charles VI of France and Henry III of Castile,[113][114][115] but died in 1405.". (and can probably be boiled down further, it's just taking time to actually review PHG's frequently bad sources). Everything else PHG had tried to add (Christopher Columbus, Franco-Ottoman alliance) was either coatrack that was unrelated to the Franco-Mongol alliance article, or from unusable sources.
February 8, February 11, I asked PHG to stop editing the Franco-Mongol alliance article and the related Good Article Nomination nom.[29][30]
February 9, Mentor Angus pinged PHG via email.[31]
February 11, Angus reiterates, on-wiki, that PHG needs to stop.[32]
February 14, I informed PHG that I had filed the AE thread.[33]
February 16
- 07:36, I informed PHG that I had filed this Request for Amendment to extend his topic ban.[34]
- 08:29, PHG created Ruad expedition, another coatrack.
- 08:30, PHG added it as a "main" link to the Franco-Mongol alliance article.[35]
(note also Talk:Ruad expedition, where there are clear objections to this unneeded new article)

I hope from the above it is clear that an extension of PHG's topic ban is the proper thing to do. When his last one expired on February 2, he immediately resumed POV editing on February 3, and is still fixated on the Franco-Mongol alliance article. Within a short period of time, his behavior has escalated to again creating coatrack articles. And remember that last time, it took us two years to repair the damage from all the articles he touched. He is not honoring his mentor's requests to stop. Can we please just extend his topic ban again? --El on ka 17:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Per Honor et Gloria

Nice trap! Elonka threatens me of Arbcom prosecution a few days ago [36] telling me "Do not edit it, do not participate at the talkpage, do not participate at the GA nom" at the Franco-Mongol alliance page, in itself a rather unethical threat (is an Administrator permitted to effectively impose an article ban through personal threat, especially when deeply involved?)... Then she nicely invites me to respond to her on that very page [37], I am stupid enough to answer to the invitation [38], and now she uses that as a justification to implement her initial threat. Isn't this wonderful?

My edits, my good humour, my civility, my sourcing

Altogether, I must have done about 20 edits to the Franco-Mongol page and its Talk Page in the last two weeks or so. I have been taking pains to make extremely well-sourced statements with mainstream academic online references so that all I write can be checked by anybody. No disputes, respecting the content of other contributors: Wikipedia editing at its best [39][40][41]. But no, Elonka seems to resent the very fact that I simply contribute, however professionally, to the Franco-Mongol alliance page, an article I created two years ago.

To use Elonka's own words, I tend to remain "very civil" because I do think it is important to be so, and to respect the others. I do tend to resent incivility or the callous treatment that some Administrators give to other users "Stop…." "Enough…": we are not cattle, we are not members of a boot camps or prisoners, just unpaid volunteers. As a gesture of goodwill, I have even made small presents to Elonka [42], explaining her several times that I wanted to please her and be her friend [43].

My sources "look good", because they are good: I remain very factual in my contribution and as often as I can link to scholarly online Google Book references so that everybody can check for themselves, and, if desired, can correct the Wikipedia content accordingly. I have learned to do this for contentious issues, so that the sources can be accessed by anyone who has doubts. You will see that virtually all online references in the Franco-Mongol article today were added by myself.

Isn't it strange, almost laughable, that I have been contributing lovingly more than 1085 articles to this encyclopedia, devoting 5 years of my life to this ideal of knowledge-sharing, obtaining 8 FAs [44], and 145 stringently-checked DYK articles [45], but that when it comes to articles Elonka claims ownership of, I become all of a sudden the worst of editors, only worthy of blames, blocks and negative comments?

Accusations based on misrepresentation of facts (Oh! Jerusalem! 1300)

Elonka has been forcing her point of view on the relationships between the Franks and the Mongols in the 13th century, attacking the main contributor on the subject (me) if my views did not fit hers.

Most significantly, she has attacked me strenuously for two years for claiming that the Mongols were in Jerusalem in 1300. Elonka's problem now is that User:Srnec painstakingly studied the sources himself and strongly challenged her former interpretation, declaring that "the modern, reliable sources say unequivocally that the Mongols were in Jerusalem" [46] and that it can be said that they "took" and "held" the city [47]. It turns out that the raid of 10,000 to 20,000 Mongols resulted in huge depredations reported in detail by Muslim sources [48]. Elonka herself has been forced to change her writing to the Mongols "probably" raided Jerusalem in 1300! [49]. She even had to apologize finally [50]. After pursuing me so harshly for so long for writing about the Mongols and Jerusalem in 1300, this is quite a change isn’t it? In light of her misrepresentations of historical facts, which she used to obtain a ruling against me, I think Elonka could become a little more humble in her views on history, but, no, all she can find is sending me here. The problem I believe is that Elonka makes very strong statements, and pursues other users harshly based on factually wrong premises. Just as she misrepresented facts for Jerusalem, there are many more instances where she takes such a stance, and you have to follow it, or else.

A rather unethical and unfair request

The Arbcom has formally determined that I could resume normal editing now, so, my intention is indeed to resume normal editing (see an example with Ruad expedition). I think if Elonka has issues with some of my contributions, she should just raise the issues, discuss them specifically, and resolve them according to Wikipedia rules, rather than make a rethoretical attack as above.

I think our responsibility as Wikipedians is to follow the sources punctiliously (I've become much better at that, and I'm now making sure all my contributions can be checked online whenever possible), and to make sure that power-hungry or drama-hungry individuals do not skew the facts too much. Best regards to all, and happy editing! Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 07:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to SHELL KINNEY
Wrong dates

Shell claims that "despite his promise that he would stay away from the topic, PHG created an article coatrack just an hour later and inserted it into the Franco-Mongol alliance article". This is mistaken: I created Ruad expedition at 09:29, 16 February 2010 [51], and agreed to stop editing in the area about 10 hours later after being asked at 19:34, 16 February 2010 [52]. I would appreciate if the incorrect assertion could be removed.

Not "the same content"

Shell writes "he's created at least two additional articles to bolster his changes despite the same article content existing elsewhere". This not exact: Timurid relations with Europe has never existed anywhere else. For Ruad expedition, all the specifics of the expedition, a major event described in detail by such authors as Alain Demurger (a whole chapter, 20 pages), had disapeared from Wikipiedia. As of February 2, after two years, all that remained was:

"The Templars established a base on Ruad Island,[106] which was then used as a staging area, and a joint force of Cypriots, approximately half of which were from the various military orders, was sent to the island.[107] From there, raids were launched on Tortosa while the Cypriots awaited the arrival of the Mongols. However, the Mongols were delayed, and the Crusader forces ended up returning to Cyprus, leaving a garrison on Ruad. When the Mongols did arrive in February 1301, they were only able to engage in some minor raids before having to withdraw." Franco-Mongol Alliance article, Feb 2 [53]

...just a general statement, without anything specific, no mention of Jacques de Molay, numbers, etc, well, a few summary sentences.... which is fine as long as we can find somewhere else all the details of the expedition if we want (hence the need for a specific article on the subject). This is very different from the Siege of Ruad itself, which is the Mamluk-led offensive in 1302, and does only cover the end of the event. Content-wise, you will notice that this article is highly referenced on immediately-checkable online sources, from the best academic authors, so what's the problem??? In order to respect Elonka's drive to keep everything short and in summary-form in the main Franco-Alliance article, isn't the solution to go into details in sub-articles?

Not "snippets"

Shell wites "cherry pick statements from sources, misrepresent the source's meaning and base entire viewpoints on a snippet seen while searching Google Books". This is inexact: 99% of the time, the links I give to Google Books offer several pages of viewable material, so they are not just snippets, and allow to get a fair view of what the author is saying. Many times, I own the books myself, but I still offer the Google Books links as a courtesy to anybody who would like to check from it. I am quite meticulous in summarizing what the sources says, often to the point of paraphrasing. Please see for yourself. Best regards Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 07:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to ELONKA
"Coatrack" and "undue weight"

As anybody can see from my user profile, I am first and foremost a content provider. Good examples of the way I usually build an article could be Boshin war (civil war in Japan, and the rest of the world) or Paris Foreign Missions Society (this time, East-West interaction on the religious plane). These articles are highly factual (basically all the information I can get through books and online sources), lots of photographs (many of mine). That's basically the way I understand articles on Wikipedia, since I took to heart its ambition of being "the sum of all knowledge".

Now, I took the same approach for the Franco-Mongol alliance article , building it up to about 200k through my research France-Mongol alliance full version.

Since Elonka started to get involved into the matter, she has been effectively fighting against giving details of the relations of the Mongols and the West: if I put details into an existing article, she says it is UNDUE WEIGHT. That's how nearly all content about the Mongols disappeared from Louis IX of France, or most precise descriptions from the Franco-Mongol alliance article (about 100k worth). If on the contrary I put the details in a separate article, I get attacked for COATRACKing. If I had added my Ruad expedition content into the Franco-Mongol alliance article or the Siege of Ruad article, it would be gone already or attacked for Undue Weight, but as soon as I put it somewhere else it is claimed as Coatracking. Same thing for Timurid relations with Europe: it would have been claimed as Undue Weight had I put it into the Timur article, and all the details squashed into two lines of generic information.

So, the bottom line it that whether I introduce my "Mongols and the West" work in a large article, or create a separate article with it, I get attacked anyway.

I know the content itself is valuable, it is highly referenced, and suppressing it is contrary to the rules of Wikipedia: "In general, information should not be removed from Wikipedia: that would defeat the purpose of the contributions. So we must create new articles to hold the excised information." Wikipedia:Summary_style

I believe Elonka simply tries to squash any detailed content about the Mongols and the West to uphold her view that no contacts occured, but this is clearly against what the sources say. I believe detailed information on the Mongols and the West belongs to Wikipedia, as long as it is published by reputable sources. To me this would simply defeat the purpose of this encyclopedia should it be suppressed. I only try to uphold this ideal of comprehensiveness on any given subject, and I can see no reason why reputable published information should be withheld simply because one person doesn't like it and bullies those who insert it. Best regards Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 19:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Supposed POV content

So, let's look objectively at the supposedly POV content I added to the Franco-Mongol alliance article in the two weeks since my topic ban ended....

February 3: 4 lines about the perceptions of the Mongols by Asiatic Christians with refs [54].

February 4: 10 summary lines about Timurid relations with Europe with refs [55].

February 4: about 4 lines about Mongol-Hospitaller relations in 1281 with refs [56]

February 5: about 2 lines about Geoffrey of Langley with refs [57].

February 5: about 2 lines about the embassy of Isa Kelemechi with refs [58]

February 5: about 4 lines about the Mongol-Genoese joint construction of fleet with refs [59]

February 6": about 4 lines and refs about the Ruad expedition [60], with link to main article for details.

February 8": correction of an Elonka statement not present in source [61]

February 8: addition of the occupation of Jerusalem, following Elonka's recognition that it indeed "probably happened" [62]

February 11: 1 line about the size of the Samagar campaign [63]

February 11: correction of an Elonka statement not in source [64]

February 11: Correction of an Elonka statement not in given source [65]

These are basically the additions I made, with a few cosmetic changes and I think 2 or 3 more images. Content is short, compact, extremely factual, highly referenced with directly accessible online academic sources: top notch Wikipedia content I believe. This is what Elonka tries to portray as the worst possible of offenses. Please everyone, check for yourself. Best regards Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 20:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Claims of Disruption

Elonka claims disruption from my part in the sporadic factual and referenced contributions I made to the Franco-Mongol alliance (addressed in the previous paragraph). I think her claim of disruption is simply not confirmed by fact. She also claims "disruption" on the GA nomination... well please just check for yourself: I believe my few contributions there have been extremely civil and constructive: [66]. "Disruption" on the Talk Page... well check for yourself: [67]. Unfortunately, I would say the actual disruption started when Elonka again resumed her use of the Franco-Mongol alliance Talk Page as a sort of Attack page against me, a practice which I sense is against the rules of Wikipedia [68][69], and which immediately triggered the concern of several editors [70], [71]. May I request that Elonka be warned against misrepresenting facts so much, and making false accusations in such an aggressive way? Best regards to all. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 06:22, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about turning the page?

It seems everytime now I am involved in a discussion, Elonka just comes up with a description of the case that was put up in the past against me: [72], [73], [74], [75], making disparaging comments [76], and even using this as a justification to set arbitrary rules against me [77] to the surprise of several fellow contributors [78], [79]. Is it fair practice to keep rehashing and advertising past sentences, most especially after my topic ban is now over? I thought that once you're freed from serving time, you're not supposed to be ostracized based on your past experience? I also think you're not supposed to make an argument on article content just by making personal attacks and saying ("Oh, but you know, PHG so and so...") Isn't this a bit abusive? Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 22:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to dismiss

I would like to propose that the present attempt to reopen this case without any clear ground to do so is simply an attempt to use the system and the threat of Arbcom prosecution as a tool to restrict my editorial rights, inspite of the formal end of my topic ban and the quality of my contributions [80]. I guess this is what is generally called "gaming the system" and "disruption" on Wikipedia. For example, the "POV" accusations about creating the Ruad expedition article have finally boiled down to a discussion about finding the most adequate title [81]. The "COATRACK" accusations about creating the article Timurid relations with Europe are finally receiving no significant support [82]. Then, Elonka's 4th motion [83] to change the article name at Franco-Mongol alliance seems like a rehashing of old discussions, inspite of the fact that this has been resolved three times in the past: 1: Request for move, 2: Poll for renaming the article, 3: Article title, seemingly a rather examplary case of disruption. As support is not forthcoming, e-mail canvassing is probably going to be called to the rescue now. These series of actions seem to me to boil down to undue maneuvering, demonstrably false accusations, and the incessant repetition of rather strident personal attacks, and only result in disrupting the system, losing everybody's time and good humour, damaging editor motivation, and giving a poor image of Wikipedia. I suggest this case be dismissed and that such behaviour be warned against. Best regards. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 00:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Domer48

As was pointed out here the above remedy has expired. As the editing restrictions against PHG expired long ago, so I don't see that this is a legitimate venue for discussion. How can you look for an amendment to a remedy which has expired? If there is a problem, a new ArbCom decision (or other form of dispute resolution) is needed to resolve them. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find this type of conduct here totally unacceptable in light of PHG's positive and constructive attitude below. The explanation offered here for this personal attack is quite disingenuous, factually incorrect and very misleading and an abuse of an Article talk page. Likewise, the explanation offered for canvassing [84][85][86], as it fails to address why this editor was not informed of the new forum. --Domer48_'fenian' 22:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I note that Shell Kinney comments have no supporting diff's at all. That she is commenting on articles that she has never edited [87][88] and never commented on on their talk pages [89][90]. What prompted Shell Kinney comments on the articles? If anything can be said of the above mentioned articles is that tags are being addind with no reasons be offered. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that Shell will not stop with here inane personal attacks on PHG. With again no evidence to support her accusations of POV pushing, and taking no part herself in what appears to be a reasonable talk page discussion it appears she is blindly acting on her friends behalf or that is the appearance being given. Inflaming the issues with this comment and edit summary it seems to be ignoring the advice offered by Cool Hand Luke and the very constructive and positive position adopted by PHG. This provocation would not be considered acceptable from an Admin let alone a moderator. --Domer48_'fenian' 10:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Latebird

I have seen ample justification for the original topic ban and its extension. Now immediately after it has expired (2. February 2010 is not "long ago" as claimed by Domer48 above), I had to observe that the same old problems resurface virtually unchanged. In fairness, the one visible change is that he dresses his POV pushing (and even his personal attacks against Elonka) in very polite words now, where in the beginning he could be highly caustic. But that is really just sugar-coating on the actual problem. As strange as it seems, PHG appears entirely unable to view historical topics from a neutral distance, and to look at his pet theories in the light of a larger context. Over several years, all arguments by others have washed right off him without leaving any traces of insight. So even after two years of restriction, I still see an ongoing need for damage control. Since a change of attitude seems highly unlikely, I will support an indefinite extension of his topic ban. --Latebird (talk) 18:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Shell Kinney

Honestly, I was about ready to bring this myself having seen PHG's edits to Franco-Mongol Alliance over the past week. The views being expressed are identical to those from the first case which ArbCom reviewed and found to be a complete misrepresentation of sources. This behavior not only hasn't stopped in relation to the Mongols, but apparently is spilling into other areas. It is not appropriate, no matter how well intentioned, to cherry pick statements from sources, misrepresent the source's meaning and base entire viewpoints on a snippet seen while searching Google Books - PHG doesn't seem to have caught on to this issue and is still just as reluctant to change his behavior when its pointed out as a problem.

Again, as in the first case, we see PHG scrambling to create additional coatracks for his theory once he's caught - he's created at least two additional articles to bolster his changes despite the same article content existing elsewhere (without PHG's novel spin on things). It took over two years for us to clean up this mess last time folks, can we please not let this get started again? I applaud PHG's intentions and hard work as an editor, but since he can't seem to understand the problems with the way he uses sources, especially when it comes to historical articles, and since his mentor has apparently not been able to resolve this issue, we need to stop this disruption to the project.

I think its also important to note that despite his promise that he would stay away from the topic, PHG created an article coatrack just an hour ~~later~~ after posting his response here (and after requests by his mentor to stop) but before the actual promise to stop editing in the area and inserted it into the Franco-Mongol alliance article. Again, this is an exact repeat of the behavior that caused the issue to get all the way to Arbitration in the first place. Shell ^babelfish

Hi Shell, you claim that "despite his promise that he would stay away from the topic, PHG created an article coatrack just an hour later and inserted it into the Franco-Mongol alliance article.". This is factually incorrect. You are mistaken on the date stamps: I created Ruad expedition at 09:29, 16 February 2010 [91], and agreed to stop editing in the area about 10 hours later, after being asked here, at 19:34, 16 February 2010 [92]. Could you kindly remove the incorrect assertion? Thank you! (please delete this post once this is solved) Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 06:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think its also interesting that the problems resumed on Feb 3, one day after the ban from the second case expired. The two coatrack articles I mentioned above are Timurid relations with Europe and Ruad expedition. Shell ^babelfish 02:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Despite not editing, PHG is still managing to push his pet theories [93]. Shell ^babelfish 00:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Angus McLellan

Placeholder: PHG and I are currently discussing this matter elsewhere. I do not intend to submit a statement until we have exhausted our conversation. Since PHG has agreed to Steve Smith's request below, I do not believe this should be a problem. My apologies for any inconvenience this may cause. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

In response to Domer, I am of the view that ArbCom may renew its own expired remedies as amendments to the cases that imposed the remedies; even if it may not, the distinction is a fine one, since ArbCom may certainly renew its own expired remedies by way of simple motion. This is going to take some time to look into; PHG, would you be willing to voluntarily hold off on editing within the former topic ban for a week or so while we catch up? Steve Smith (talk) 15:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will be glad to comply to this request. Please note that this leaves me free however to contribute to Talk Pages within the former topic (i.e. Crusades/Mongols), to the contrary of the non-community-approved ban Elonka has been trying to impose on me (the "don't contribute or I'll pursue you" threat [94]). Please take this time to review precisely the 20 edits or so I made to the Franco-Mongol Alliance page after 2 years of absence: we're talking about 10 lines of factual content, with about 20 online academic Google Book references: I am confident you will see that they represent some of the best editorial standards. Best regards, Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 18:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone stay calm. PHG has agreed to stay away for the moment. I would especially value the input of Angusmclellan. Cool Hand Luke 20:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please continue to hold. PHG, please do not edit in this area until we've had more time to talk this over. Cool Hand Luke 16:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - No problem Cool Hand Luke! I am currently working on my latest article: Japanese currency. Best regards Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 16:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recused as participant in original case. Shell ^babelfish 22:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recused. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 05:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Footnoted quotes

Initiated by Ncmvocalist (talk) at 07:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Footnoted quotes arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedy 2

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Ncmvocalist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Good Olfactory (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Postdlf (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Alansohn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

[all listed users are aware]

Amendment

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Footnoted quotes#Alansohn restricted
to remove the "for one year" part, and in addition to that, impose a ban, probation, or any other remedy that will put an end to the problems, and subsequently act to ensure that they do not recur.

Statement by Ncmvocalist

ArbCom's finding in 2008 stated: ""Alansohn has repeatedly engaged in unseemly behavior, including personal attacks, incivility, and assumptions of bad faith". Unfortunately, this finding continues to hold true today. The remedy that was enacted at the time of the finding was invoked several times as the case log indicates; Postdlf and Good Ol'factory whom invoked this remedy in 2009, have since been repeatedly subject to uncivil and unseemly conduct by Alansohn, including personal attacks (including in the form of very serious yet unsubstantiated allegations), as well as other inflammatory commentary and assumptions of bad faith. Allegations made in the heat of the moment is one thing, but this involves repeatedly making the same allegations, yet refusing to provide any evidence to substantiate them (despite being requested to do so).

Good Ol'factory has in good faith, followed the dispute resolution process - opening a WQA which summarises one of the main incidents [95]. During this WQA, I also provided input as an uninvolved user. However, Alansohn has now attempted to involve me in his conflicts by filing a retaliatory WQA over something for which he was not a party to. The community is reluctant to say any further, when this intimidation tactic shall be employed by Alansohn against any user whom strongly makes a finding against him. The improvement in his conduct has, therefore, been so marginal that it has dismally failed to adhere to Wikipedia's expected standards of behavior and decorum. Plenty of evidence is available to substantiate this at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Footnoted_quotes/Evidence/Alansohn's_conduct_post-case, which should also paint a clear picture of any further voluntary dispute resolution on the matter. I request ArbCom to put an end to the unfortunate effects of Alansohn's disruption and gross misconduct. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A CFD restriction would address the first type of problematic behavior that Good Olfactory has pointed out; but if that's all that ArbCom is willing to do, the other two types would still remain a problem...? Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ Orderinchaos

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I'm not sure whether a couple of your remarks (the last sentence of para 1 and para 2) are stemming from a genuine lack of familiarity with the expected standards of conduct during dispute resolution, or something else. I'm fiercely independent of any user or body of users, as ArbCom (and other users who contribute in DR) are extremely familiar with. I filed this request solely based on the conduct displayed by Alansohn during and after the WQA, and I've never contributed to (nor had a particular interest or position in) CFDs. In fact, the closest I could've come to interacting (if at all) with any of the users listed would've been on the public case pages while the case was open. I can appreciate that the incivility and other misconduct cited might not match that type you happened to notice in 2007, but that some of his contributions are useful or that the incivility/misconduct has taken on a different form during DR in 2010, does not change the relevance of the principle, Fof and remedy in the case. In such circumstances, I find your position in those remarks incomprehensible. I would not have filed this request, had the problematic conduct merely been (or was likely to have been) an isolated incident. To be specific, in the 3 or 4 years I've provided uninvolved input at WQA, I can only recall one other incident where an user filed a retaliatory WQA and engaged in other incivility against uninvolved users, and even that was greeted with a sharp response; but if you think that such conduct is commonplace at WQA against uninvolved users, I invite you to submit evidence to that effect. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clarifying. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ Kirill

Well, looking at Alansohn's lack of responsiveness to the clerk's request, I'm not sure if there would be sufficient evidence from both sides for the case to proceed. I don't have anything further to contribute myself, except possibly at workshop-pd stage. My primary concern was Alansohn's conduct during WQA, and the evidence I had to submit has already been submitted in the links in my initial statement here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Good Olfactory

The most recent incident is just the latest in a long history of incidents involving Alansohn's behavior at CFD and CFD-related DRV discussions. As a regular participant at these discussions, I can attest that Alansohn's behavior has not substantially improved since the conclusion of his editing restrictions. I would classify the latest incident as relatively minor in isolation, but the accumulated history of his behavior makes it perhaps the straw that is breaking the camel's back.

(Parenthetical:I will state that prior to the editing restrictions being lifted, I did block Alansohn twice for incidents of trolling, assuming bad faith, and making personal attacks. The first block was made in response to this personal attacks and feuding with User:Kbdank71 and User:Otto4711: [96], [97], [98], [99]. The second block was made in response to a continuation of the behaviour, and in particular the following attack on User:Jc37, which was made after he had been warned to temper his comments: [100]. Since these blocks were imposed I have been one of Alansohn's more popular targets of attack, so I have not considered blocking him further, but have made good faith efforts to discuss with him some of the problems that continue.)

Since the editing restrictions were lifted, I would categorize the general problems with Alansohn's edits into the following types of problematic behavior:

1. He users his opportunity to present arguments in CFD and DRV as a vehicle for personal attacks against editors who disagree with him (or, often, against editors who have attempted to intervene with him or have blocked him in the past, including me and User:Postdlf);

2. He repeatedly mischaracterizes arguments he disagrees with and claims that users who choose to propose deletion for categories are engaging in "disruption" (recent e.g.);

3. When concerns about his behavior are brought to his attention, I have found he uses one of three approaches to avoid taking responsibility for his misbehavior: (a) he accuses the person who is bringing the behavioural problems to his attention of "trolling" or of manufacturing a problem in an attempt to get him blocked or disciplined; (b) he suggests that the complaints are invalid because the user bringing it to his attention is in a conflict of interest; (c) he attempts to shift the focus of the discussion to what he views as procedural deficiencies in Wikipedia processes (which apparently are intended to act as a justification for his behavior). These methods can be observed in the following recent discussions and the most recent WQA, where a number of users tried to make progress on dealing with some of his problems: [101]; [102]

I have and I have seen other users attempt the following ways of dealing with the problems:

1. Engaging in good faith discussions in an attempt to resolve the disputes;

2. Using humor to point out the absurdity of his behavior;

3. Ignoring it, in the hope that it would cease;

4. Issuing warnings that continued behavior could result in sanctions against him;

5. Formal WQA.

From my perspective, no progress has been made with any of these approaches. The problems associated with Alansohn's behavior have been consistent and relatively unrelenting, with the diffs provided by Ncmvocalist just the latest examples from months of similar behavior. I didn't encourage the filing of this request for amendment and I wished this latest incident could have been resolved via regular dispute resolution channels. The only solution that I personally think would solve the CFD/DRV problem completely would be banning Alansohn from CFD/DRV participation (though I do worry that he would then create the same problem in another discussion area of Wikipedia). It's gone on a long, long time and many editors have shown a lot of forbearance. It needs to be resolved. — Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Roger Davies: Normally I wouldn't have minded doing this, but I think I'd better not in light of his recent reaction to my posting on his talk page: [103]. It might be more likely to promote a response if a non-involved user were able to remind him. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Orderinchaos: User:Orderinchaos's comment below contains some interesting allegations that suggest to me that he may not be assuming good faith about those who have already posted here. I'll let most of his comments suggesting conspiratorial undertones and sneaky cabals speak for themselves. However, it's probably necessary that I respond directly to the following: "Good Olfactory's admission above that he has used his admin tools to further his position in a dispute to protect friends - something which he should most definitely have taken to AN/I instead - is also an issue." I want to be clear that I made no such admission, and that is Orderinchaos interpreted my comment in this way, he is mistaken. At the time the blocks were performed, I hardly knew User:Kbdank71, User:Otto4711, or User:Jc37. The only one of those three that I would even currently consider "a friend" would be User:Kbdank71, but it is purely a Wikipedia association and is entirely the result of our interactions at CFD that have taken place since this time. This is exactly the same tactic that Alansohn has adopted in alleging that I had a conflict of interest in performing those blocks—he has taken events and relationships that have developed after the block was performed to retroactively assume that such a relationship pre-existed and thereby created a conflict of interest. It's cute, but it's a misrepresentation. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And yes, the blocks were in 2009, not 2008. My mistaken dating/typo on your talk page in that regard doesn't change anything I've said above. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 06:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Kirill: I understand the concern regarding the "dregding up" of an old case—if nothing had happened regarding the case for 18 months, I would agree. But this is not the first time a user has brought the case before the Arbitration Committee again for clarification or further action; see here. This is because the problem with Alansohn's behavior has been consistent. It didn't end during his year-long sanction period, it didn't end when the year-long sanction expired in June 2009, and it hasn't stopped since. In the June 2009 clarification linked to, when concerns were expressed that Alansohn's behavior had not improved, the arbitrators strongly encouraged Alansohn to render moot the question of how this case should proceed by improving his behavior. Other than saying that, no one answered the question of what we do next, and no one clarified the question of what should be done if the behavior doesn't improve: [104]. The behavior has not improved, and I feel that multiple requests to the committee by different users should be a signal that something further needs to be done. The question has not been rendered moot, as hoped for. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Postdlf

The fundamental issue is that Alansohn has a recurring problem with turning content disputes into personal ones, by making attacks on contributors in the course of disagreeing with their arguments or policy/guideline interpretations. I have tried repeatedly to address this with him through explanations and pleas, assuming his good faith throughout, but he has turned his sights on one contributor after another at CFD, and those who try to change or sanction his behavior in turn get subject to his attacks as well.

I've been personally trying to address Alansohn's incivility at CFD for over a year and a half now (for example, this thread, involving his feud against User:Kbdank71, then a frequent closer of CFD discussions). Alansohn was civil and even complimentary towards me at the time (though persisted in attacks on others). I even tried to address others' incivility towards him as well.[105] Though in my view, Alansohn generally bore more responsibility for initiating the hostile exchanges and escalating and continuing them by baiting. In that particular instance, Alansohn was continuing a feud with yet another frequent CFD contributor, User:Otto4711.[106],[107] And I went out of my way to be nice to Alansohn when I saw him doing good things in other contexts.[108]

His conduct towards me changed starkly once I blocked him myself, in January 2009, for his comments towards User:Good Olfactory.[109],[110]. I have always been reluctant to block someone for conduct other than repeated vandalism. But given Alansohn's very clear editing restrictions, the extreme nature of his comments, and the fact that this was part of a pattern on his part that I had already tried to address with him on multiple occasions, I thought (and still think) a block was very appropriate. I logged it pursuant to his editing restrictions.[111] And I politely explained the block to Alansohn on his talk page.[112]. Alansohn responded with even more incivility and personal attacks, now towards myself as well.[113] Another admin reviewed and denied Alansohn's unblock request, finding that even that request itself contained further incivility.[114]

In the year since, I have periodically tried to bring his uncivil conduct to his attention, and Alansohn has periodically accused me of having abused my admin powers, alleging a conflict of interest on my part as some perception of his that I was acting only pursuant to a "friendship" (as he stated at the time in his response to my block notice). He has never elaborated or supported this accusation. Alansohn has gone so far as to take my words entirely out of context right below my own post, claiming that I myself had described my block of him as "taking the side of a friend";[115]; I corrected him[116] and still have not seen any acknowledgment of this.

Often Alansohn's most inflammatory comments do not expressly identify individuals, but are still understood as attacks on others with whom he disagrees. At a minimum, the heated rhetoric is disruptive.[117],[118],[119] As before, I tried to point this out to him, losing patience.[120] His response was to blame others for starting it.[121] I told him this was non-responsive and pointed out, again, that it was part of a longstanding pattern.[122] I did not receive a further response.

The most recent incident between Alansohn and myself began with me addressing his incivility towards User:BrownHairedGirl, yet another regular participant at CFD that Alansohn has targeted,[123],[124] and who has also tried to address the tone of Alansohn's comments at CFD.[125] Alansohn responded by attacking me out of the blue in a completely unrelated CFD,[126], and by calling me a troll when I asked for an explanation,[127] and by calling me a troll again when I posted a question about a comment of his at yet another CFD (in which he had been uncivil yet again towards BrownHairedGirl.[128]

I responded on his talk page, in which I complimented him as an editor, and pointed out exactly what I had a problem with and what I hoped for going forward.[129] As that thread shows, his response was to call the incidents "trivial," again accuse me and Good Ol'factory of trolling, and of trying to "manufacture knowingly false disputes." When User:BrownHairedGirl also joined in that thread as well and asked Alansohn to explain a comment about policy violations, he responded not with anything relevant to the conduct issues, but rather with issues of policy and guideline interpretation at CFD.

I was shocked recently to realize just how long this was going on, and I am disappointed in myself for not being able to bring about a resolution. But I cannot make any progress with someone who dismisses complaints as "trivial," and labels responses to his personal attacks as "trolling." Anyone who cannot participate in a forum without turning discussions personal, and who cannot respond to complaints about their own conduct without escalating the hostility, does not belong there. postdlf (talk) 23:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Orderinchaos

Noting that I have been a past focus of his attention in 2007, and supported all of the previous ArbComs, RfCs, etc as a strong opponent of Alansohn, my observation was (and is) that his behaviour significantly improved after the original ArbCom limitations were put in place and any time I have seen him on the project since, he has been contributing constructively and, in particular, making useful contributions to CfD and other areas. On looking at the evidence in this case, I am not seeing the problems which led to the Footnoted quotes case manifesting themselves, so it should not be treated as a "request for amendment" of the previous case.

On the other hand, my observations of some of the editors Good Olfactory names in his statement above are quite negative indeed - they have acted at times in a hostile, inflexible and provocative manner towards good faith editors in the CfD area at times, and if this goes to an actual case, I'll be happy to spend some time at that point finding examples of this for the evidence pages as it would be a great opportunity to fix CfD. It's an area of the encyclopaedia which has been a problem for a long time, mainly due to WP:OWN problems associated with a very small number of editors who have very strong ideas on How Things Should Be around here - some of the ideas are good, but others are utterly illogical, and these guys brook no criticism and carry grudges, sometimes for years, against editors who take them on. One could be forgiven for thinking this amendment motion, and the stages which led to it, are an orchestrated campaign by the members of that group to silence an opponent.

Good Olfactory's admission above that he has used his admin tools to further his position in a dispute to protect friends - something which he should most definitely have taken to AN/I instead - is also an issue. (Read in connection with 2nd note below) Orderinchaos 12:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ncm: I certainly didn't have you in mind in my comments above - I apologise if I gave that impression. I think you've likely been caught in the crossfire actually - there is a lot more to the disagreement between these parties, in my view, than first appears. The CfD crew's modus operandi is clear to anyone who gets in a dispute with them. Granted, it appears Alan did not handle this particularly well, but the real aggressors should be targetted for action here, not someone they provoked into a predictable response given his past history. Orderinchaos 14:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good Olfactory has asserted to me, and may well be right, that he was not friends with those involved at the time he made the block on Alansohn, which was April 2008. My project's first run-in with the CfD group was ~~possibly (by memory) in August or September 2008~~ 23–30 September 2008, by which stage they were a functioning and tightly-knit group of coordinated editors and any action taken would in that context be thoroughly compromised as per above. Were it a year rather than a few months I'd strike my comment; as it is I'll leave it, with this qualification attached. Orderinchaos 21:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have just noticed that the blocks were performed in 2009, not 2008 (I had been led astray by this comment by Good Olfactory). There may be argument for a reprimand with relation to abuse of admin tools here - it was a clear conflict of interest situation in the terms I outlined in my first post in this comment. Orderinchaos 05:58, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by [insert user name]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

For the record, in line with Roger Davies request below, Alansohn was reminded at 03:35, 16 February 2010, by one of the clerks. [130].

Arbitrator views and discussion

I am seeing some problems here. I would be willing to see a motion which partially or fully restricts in the areas of CFD and CFD at DRV. SirFozzie (talk) 09:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Could Alansohn be reminded that this is underway? I'm seeing lots of edits from them but no input here and I'd like to hear their side of the story. Roger Davies ^talk 21:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not particularly enthusiastic about dredging up a two-year-old case (and a remedy that's been expired for the better part of a year) to sanction someone, even if they do need sanctioning. This would be better framed as a new case request, in my opinion. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 05:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If there is enough substantive matter to justify it, then a new case request might be appropriate. Otherwise, a dead case resuscitation doesn't seem appropriate. — Coren ^(talk) 00:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recuse due to involvement in first case. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've got to agree with Kirill and Coren, if there are continuing problems that haven't been resolve through the usual channels, a new case might be appropriate, but I don't believe that this can ride on the tailcoats of the old Footnote case since even the restrictions have been expired for most of a year. Shell ^babelfish 02:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also not very excited about resuscitating a really old case where the area in which the dispute took place had shifted (from BLP to deletion process) - particularly so when there is a landmark decision right above it. I recommend filing a fresh new case if necessary. - Mailer Diablo 20:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]