|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Second Temple article.|
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|The content of Herod's Temple was merged into Second Temple. That page now redirects here. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see ; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.|
|A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on August 4, 2013.|
- 1 Page move
- 2 RfC:Proper Name for this Article
- 3 Nothing on architecture?
- 4 Who and when built the Second Temple?
- 5 Potentially misleading
- 6 File:Temple inscription in greek.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
- 7 A simple suggestion
- 8 Failure to contextualize
- 9 Calendar Date of Destruction
- 10 External Link : 3D virtual tour of the Second Temple
- 11 Strange reference for Yoma 22b re: Presence in the Holy of Holies
- 12 Herod's Temple was the 'Third Temple'
- 13 How was it destroyed ?
- 14 Strange dimension text for platform
- 15 Confusing model photograph
- 16 Construction: Pickaxes
- 17 Jesus in Second Temple (Cleansing of the Temple)
It looks like a discussion has been had at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism. However, this isn't the normal process for moving a page and, for obvious reasons, I don't think it is the best forum for gaining a full range of potential views on the matter.
Had I had chance to consider the arguments for the move, then perhaps I might have been persuaded. However, it seems to me that the Second Temple is primarily a building in antiquity rather than a sort of concept in Judaism. To many people, it will be of primarily secular historical rather than religious or cultural interest. To other people, it may be of interest because it features in the traditional narrative of the life of Jesus.
Either way, can I ask that the page be moved back and the normal process for gaining consensus for a page move be engaged with.
- Hi Former IP: You are wrong. Firstly, there most definitely was a very lengthy discussion reaching consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Building and destroying the Beit Hamikdash since 14 July 2010. Secondly, this page like all the others effected were notified about the proposed redirect, also on 14 July 2010  on their talk pages but now with the "corrected" redirects it's not showing up for some odd reason. So please do not complain now because all users who have this page on their watch lists had more than two weeks to partake, share their their views and make comments and suggestions. Those editors who did were mostly reliable Judaic editors who are trustworthy and responsible. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 05:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- See my detailed response with more information at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#All talk pages, and more, were notified about the discussions and proposed moves Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- By the way Former IP, by your comments here, you are projecting your purely Christian WP:POV it would seem, so that you may want to create an article that deals with how Jesus ties in with the Second Temple. Or how Christianity depicts it, even though the articles do put in Christian views on Judaism holiest building/s. For that matter, how about articles about how Judaism views The Vatican (holiest site to the Catholic Church or Canterbury Cathedral (holiest site to the Church of England and so far no one thinks it's worth it). Jesus as a historical personage supposedly lived at its very end, so it's hard to see what relevance he has to the life and times of it during its 400+ years in an of itself. Please do not forget that the Temple was first and foremost and always remains the most important Jewish religious building of all time while it is very marginal to Jesus and to Christianity. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi IZAK. I'm aware of the discussion at the Judaism wikiproject. The fact that the participants were "mostly reliable Judaic editors" is nothing to boast about, though. It seems to me obvious that it is not apporpriate to ignore normal WP procedures for page moves and hold the discussion instead in a forum where a Jewish POV is likely to prevail.
- By the way, I am not a Christian and this is not about the content of the article, it is just about the page move. --FormerIP (talk) 11:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Temple discussion at ANI
In response to discussions about correct names for the First and Second Temples held at WP:TALKJUDAISM, please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#All talk pages, and more, were notified about the discussions and proposed moves where you may want to add your views to the ongoing discussion. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 05:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
RfC:Proper Name for this Article
Nothing on architecture?
Surely there should be something about the architecture? I think there's a brief passage in Esra giving the dimensions of the Zerubabbel temple, for example (Ezra 6:3).PiCo (talk) 00:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Who and when built the Second Temple?
"The accession of Cyrus the Great of Persia in 538 BCE made the re-establishment of the city of Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple possible."
- -Ok, so it was after b.c.e 538. Who by? who was the force behind the proyect?
"According to the Bible, when the Jewish exiles returned to Jerusalem following a decree from Cyrus the Great (Ezra 1:1-4, 2 Chron 36:22-23), construction started at the original site of Solomon's Temple, which had remained a devastated heap during the approximately 70 years of captivity (Dan. 9:1-2). "
- -Any thoughts on when was this?
"After a relatively brief halt due to opposition from peoples who had filled the vacuum during the Jewish captivity (Ezra 4), work resumed c. 521 BCE under the Persian King Darius (Ezra 5) and was completed during the sixth year of his reign (c. 518/517 BCE), with the temple dedication taking place the following year."
- - c. 521? before comon era or after? what is "c."?
"Around 19 BCE, Herod the Great renovated the Temple, which became known as Herod's Temple.".
- - So, 19 b.c.e., I take it we are talking about 521 b.c.e then (of course), but perhaps the article needs revising.
- I was unaware that the existence of Solomon's temple was a religious belief; it certainly seems to me that archaeological evidence suggests it is historical fact. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 19:50, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, some would argue about Solomon's temple, but the second temple is simply described in so many diverse historical sources that denying its existence would be absurd. Even if one does not consider the different books of the Tanakh that mention it, (all of them written by Jews, who had to be eyewitnesses of this temple), note that the historians Josephus and Philo both visited the temple in Jerusalem. Josephus described it in detail. Tacitus, a Roman historian, recounts the destruction of this temple, and he was alive during these events. Certainly there are other sources, but these will suffice. I'm sorry but only hyper-skeptics would doubt the existence of the second temple. And by the way, why would anyone invent a Jewish temple? Lindert (talk) 15:17, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I'll address your last question first to help explain why the two sources you've cited are unreliable. The importance of the Temple is obvious to anyone that understands the current ongoing tension in Israel/Palestine. The Zionist's claims to Israel are entirely based on Biblical scripture. Without it they have no claim. The importance of the Temple Mount is also obvious. Now to address your sources. Both Josephus and Philo were Jewish, ergo extremely biased. Josephus' work has been considered dubious by many. I'm not familiar with Philo. We do know that Josephus' work has been tampered with for religious purposes, i.e.: an attempt to prove the existence of Jesus has been noticed. The existence of the first Temple has been suspect for quite sometime also. In fact the antiquity of the Jews has been in question for quite some time. Ergo no antiquity- no Temple. Manson 05:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- The question is not why anyone would invent a Jewish temple right now, but why in antiquity? Could Josephus foresee the 'current ongoing tension in Israel/Palestine'? Also bear in mind that all peoples and nations in the regions had their own temples. If there was no temple in Jerusalem, this would be a unique situation in the Middle East. And you have not addressed Tacitus, who is seen by many as the greatest historian of the Roman empire. He was in no way sympathetic with the Jewish people. See  for his account of the siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE. If you read it, you will find much hostility to the Jews. Yet he clearly describes the temple in Jerusalem. And no, the antiquity of the Jews is not and has never been in question. Find me a single historian who denies that the Jewish people lived in Israel centuries prior to the Common Era. There isn't one. -- Lindert (talk) 09:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
File:Temple inscription in greek.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
|An image used in this article, File:Temple inscription in greek.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
A simple suggestion
Instead of contextualizing paragraph two by books of "The Bible," which implies a later, Christian source, the more relevant words "Hebrew Bible" or "Tanakh" (or both) ought to be the terms of definition. Otherwise, one might start to think that "Old Testament" translations, based upon the Greek Septaguint, are the authorities when in fact the Masoretic text of the Tanakh is considered by Jews the obvious standard.Rtelkin (talk) 05:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- The term 'Bible' does not at all imply a later Christian source. It is a widely used term for the books considered canonical by Christians, that is not to say that they have a Christian origin. It is also a misunderstanding that translations based on the Septuagint are authoritative for Christians. Nearly all English Bible translations are in fact based on the Masoretic text. Only in Eastern Orthodox streams of Christianity is the Septuagint the standard Bible. In any case, apart from a few fringe groups, Christians realize that the authority of any translation ultimately goes back to the original Hebrew (i.e. for the books of the Bible originally written in Hebrew of course). -- Lindert (talk) 13:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Failure to contextualize
The "Construction" section's 7th paragraph begins "In 1967 Israel captured Old Jerusalem (and the Temple Mount) from Jordan." No other information is given about this; the impression is that Israel invaded Jordan without provocation, when in fact Israel's actions in the 1967 war were in response to a mass attack upon her by Arab countries, including Jordan, after Egypt's General Nasser and the other Arab States allied with Egypt had engaged in an act of war by closing down Israel's ability to ship through the Straits of Tiran with the express and stated purpose of annihilating Israel. This false impression must be corrected if it is to avoid being unintentionally anti-Semitic. Rtelkin (talk) 06:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Having a bias against Israel is not the same as being anti-Semitic. Also, I think the current statement is simply concise, not going deep into the political situation because this is not the topic of the article. However, if you feel contextualizing is necessary, just go ahead. Remember Wikipedia's policy to be bold. -- Lindert (talk) 13:58, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
In response to "Rtelkin", Israel was not attacked by any Arab nation in 1967 like you claim. That is not even what the official pro-Zionist propaganda claims. They and Israel claim they were engaging in a "preemptive war" because the Arabs (particularly Nasser and Egypt) were allegedly about to "attack". However even the words and later statements of Israeli leaders contradict this Zionist hasbara (propaganda). For example Yitzhak Rabin is recorded in the French paper Le Monde on February 28, 1968 as saying "I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it." and also Menachem Begin admitted in the New York Times on August 21, 1982 "In June l967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."
And then as for your claim about the Strait of Tiran the wikipedia article there notes; "according to Major General Indar Jit Rikhye, military adviser to the United Nations Secretary General, the accusation of a blockade was 'questionable,' pointing out that an Israeli-flagged ship had not passed through the straits in two years, and that 'The U.A.R. [Egyptian] navy had searched a couple of ships after the establishment of the blockade and thereafter relaxed its implementation.'"
So with the above quotes in mind and many more including ones expressing open greed for land (to make settlements on) the claims about the very, very infrequently used Eilat port that the Strait of Tiran (which was not shown to be "blockaded" to start with via Rikhye's words) would service doesn't excuse Israel's attack.
Calendar Date of Destruction
The statement in the section Destruction of the Temple that says the 9th of Av (date of destruction) was July 29 or 30, 70CE is incorrect regardless of the date being Julian or Gregorian. This can be determined using Fourmilab Calendar Converter which is an external link from Conversion between Julian and Gregorian calendars . According to the moon phase section of the NASA Eclipse web site NASA Moon Phases , for the year 70CE, the new moon conjunction occurred at 0110 UT on July 26 (about 0310 Israel time). According to the link at the top of that same page which leads to NASA Calendar Dates , this July 26 is Julian which the fourmilab calculator confirms. The calculator says the Gregorian date, which obviously was not in effect at that time would have been July 24. The first day of the Hebrew month would most likely have occurred at sundown on Julian July 26 or 27. At sundown the 26th, the moon would have been around 15-17 hours old which is pretty early for seeing, albeit possible. That makes the ninth of AV on August 3 or 4 in 70 CE. In the case that calculations were used because of bad seeing conditions, the August dates are still more accurate than what is contained in the article. I believe the statement regarding the July dates should be removed.--22.214.171.124 (talk) 10:09, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
External Link : 3D virtual tour of the Second Temple
Hello, I would like to suggest external link of 3d virtual learning tour of the second temple: http://jerusalem.com/tour/jewish_temple_3D
Strange reference for Yoma 22b re: Presence in the Holy of Holies
In the section "Rebuilding the Temple" it states "According to the Babylonian Talmud (Yoma 22b), however, the Temple lacked the Shekinah, ". I went and look at the reference and the page is from the Jewish Encyclopedia making the claim. I went and looked directly at Yoma 22b and it is a comparison of King Saul and King David. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Presence, the Holy of Holies or the Second Temple. See http://www.on1foot.org/text/babyloniantalmud-yoma-22b or http://juchre.org/talmud/yoma/yoma1.htm#22b 126.96.36.199 (talk) 02:27, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- Firstly, the Jewish Encyclopedia is wrong on the reference; it should be Yoma 21b, not 22b. Secondly, I've found different translations, one may support the claim, the other does not:
- http://juchre.org/talmud/yoma/yoma1.htm#21b (this says the Shekina was present):
But was the fire present at the second Temple?-Surely R. Samuel b. Inia said: What is the meaning of the scriptural verse: And I will take pleasure in it [we-ikabed] and I will be glorified? The traditional reading is we-ikabedah, then why is the [letter] he omitted [in the text]? To indicate that in five things the first Sanctuary differed from the second: in the ark, the ark-cover, the Cherubim, the fire, the Shechinah, the Holy Spirit [of Prophecy], and the Urim-we-Thummim [the Oracle Plate]? I will tell you, They were present, but they were not as helpful [as before].
- http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/yoma1.html (this could imply the Shekina was not present):
But in the second Temple there was no heavenly fire at all, as R. Samuel b. Inia said: It is written [Haggai i. 8]: "That I may take pleasure in it, and be glorified"; it is written "Veikabed," and it is read "Veikabdah." Why is the "h" missing? This is to hint that five (the numeral value of "h") things were missing in the second Temple. What are they? The ark, the mercy-seat, the cherubim, the heavenly fire, the Shekhina, the Holy Spirit, and the Urim and Tumim. So we see there was no heavenly fire in the second Temple at all? We may say, it was there, only it did not assist in consuming.
- Seeing that the reference is both problematic and confusing, I think we should just remove the portion you cited from the article, unless a better source can be found. - Lindert (talk) 11:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Herod's Temple was the 'Third Temple'
I added the following... Note: some scholars refer to Herod's Temple as the "Third Temple"<ref]citation needed</ref]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 11:47, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- And who might those scholars be? "Second Temple" is, by far, the consensus in both academic, religious and common discourse. Besides, there's an inherent tension in grouping "some scholars" and "citation needed" in the same edit. An actual reference is in order. Poliocretes (talk) 12:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
The renovations of the temple began by Herod are date to this statement in the New Testament Joh 2:20 ESV “The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" . This is accepted as the standard reference to establish the start of the temple renovations being 19-20CE.  The completion of the renovations is date to 62-63CE.--Ve7wln (talk) 06:22, 29 January 2014 (UTC)Ve7wln Jan28 2014
How was it destroyed ?
"Titus burnt the place to the ground". You can't burn a stone building down, just the flammable components. Demolition would have been a massive operation if it was built anything like reconstructions show. My guess is that demolition would only have proceded in the context of erecting replacement structures. Rcbutcher (talk) 10:38, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- True. It wasn't. There were stones left.
- The "Holy of Holies" which no longer contained the ark (after the Babylonia Destruction), did not exist as before. It was a "veiled area." NT refers to this. The veil was rent and destroyed. The division between the sacred "Holy of Holies", where God was presumed to reside, and the rest of the world was destroyed, horrifying the Jews. Probably lots of secular material that refers to this including Josephus.
- Stone can be "threatened" and even chemically altered and destroyed with nearby fire. See (for example) http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/08/are_ancient_ruins_flammable.html.
- Perhaps "Titus destroyed the temple" would be more accurate. Student7 (talk) 23:28, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I hadn't realised very hot fire could degrade stone. But I agree that in the absence of historical or archaeological info on exactly what happened over time, "destroyed the temple" is a more appropriate conservative statement. The destruction is not disputed. I'll modify the text accordingly. Rcbutcher (talk) 06:11, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Strange dimension text for platform
"It was Herod's plan that the entire mountain be turned into a giant square platform. The Temple Mount was originally intended to be 1600 feet wide by 900 feet broad". Huh ? 1600 x 900 is not square; "wide" means the same as "broad" : should this read 1600 feet long by 900 feet wide ? Are these numbers based on what was actually constructed ? The wording implies there is a difference between the original intention and the actuality. But if we don't know exactly what a cubit was, how can we state what the actual planned measurements were ? Rcbutcher (talk) 18:04, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Confusing model photograph
"Model of Herod's Temple at the Israel Museum" File:Jerus-n4i.jpg shows multi-level extensions above the North wall of the Temple Mount. The text positions this built-up structure on the South Wall, as do other models. Other models show the North wall as just a simple wall with no upper structures, and article text do not mention any North wall adornments. ?? Rcbutcher (talk) 01:14, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've removed the photograph until it can be explained. It claims to be from 1998, but other 1990s photos from when it was at Holyland Hotel show the model with Royal Stoa correctly located above Southern wall and Antonia Fortress correctly located in NW corner. Rcbutcher (talk) 06:17, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Currently it is common to use the misnomer pickaxe for any type of pick. Having grown up with some knowledge of hand tool nomenclature; I would ask did they use a hand tool with a pick on 1 side & an axe on the other, or did they us a pick, which would have a pick on both sides or only 1 pick point? Rod — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chugiak (talk • contribs) 15:24, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Jesus in Second Temple (Cleansing of the Temple)
@Hertz1888: I think the account of Jesus going to the Second Temple and driving out the money changers and confirming his divinity should be added to the article under the "Herod's Temple" sub-section. Can it be added to the article? If not what are the problems? Why shouldn't it be added? KahnJohn27 (talk) 10:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- What can be added depends on the usual rules governing verifiability (reliable sourcing) and neutrality or neutral voice. I cannot say with any certainty whether the context for the account is appropriate in this section or article; it's not clear to me where on the page it might belong. It may be best to wait for others to comment—or you could simply go ahead make the edit, subject to WP:BRD. Hertz1888 (talk) 04:13, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Jewish Enc.http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14304-temple-of-herod
- Josephus Antiquites XX.9,7 (219)