Talk:Barack Obama

Admins and editors, please put The Case Against Barack Obama on watchlists

I just created an article on David Freddoso's The Case Against Barack Obama, which is competing with Jerome Corsi's The Obama Nation. -- Noroton (talk) 00:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Criteria of entries within the Cited works section?

There are three books in this short section: two texts written by Obama and one biography about Obama (by Mendell). What does this section signify? Texts written or endorsed by Obama? If so, the list is incomplete. If the criteria is something else, then maybe the References section needs a cross-check. —Kanodin 05:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

teleprompter candidate

There is no reason or need to delete this It fits with NPOV very well, source is refered to. --Cretino (talk) 23:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems extremely peripheral for main biography, and not worth including. LotLE×talk 23:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The edit seems to violate WP:DUE. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 00:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above. This falls several orders of magnitude below the threshold for something that deserves space in a summary style biography. If we wanted to include every criticism everyone ever made of every politician out there, the typical politician's article would be several megabytes long. --Clubjuggle ^T/C 03:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I have twice previously been forced to revert this edit by Cretino (July 30, August 14). From a campaign standpoint, it is noteworthy that Republicans have branded Obama as the "teleprompter candidate" as part of their election strategy, and it may warrant a mention in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. A less partisan source than The Weekly Standard (Rupert Murdoch's neoconservative opinion magazine) would need to be found, of course. Equally McCain's complete ineptitude with the device, resulting in repeated calls for joint town hall meetings, may warrant a mention in John McCain presidential campaign, 2008. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth (and about on the same level of discourse) Paris Hilton is seemingly the most articulate of the bunch, having reportedly done her lone position statement entirely from memory without the aid of a teleprompter.[4] On the other hand, some are insisting that the no-teleprompter story is just a campaign ploy and that she actually did use one.[5] Could this be teleprompter-gate? Wikidemo (talk) 13:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's possible that WP:WEIGHT would not be violated by including a mention of her use/nonuse of a teleprompter in the Paris Hilton article. ;-) As for Obama, he obviously wasn't relying on a teleprompter during his various interviews with the editorial boards of newspapers (many videos are available) and he did fine, so I see no point in including yet another ooh!ooh! Republican campaign talking point in this article. I further see no point in reducing Wikipedia articles into trash-talk, red-top recyclers of lies, rumors and innuendo. Flatterworld (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

A new user tried to include this in the German WP and after he was blocked for being insistent (incl. edit-warring) he was blocked the very same day and it took him no time trying to edit it (again with a new account) here, (also the same day). Not saying s/he is the same but it was discussed before (sometimes in mid July I think) and discharged. Nothing changed till then. --Floridianed (talk) 04:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

1.3 million, really?

I donno, 1.3 million just seems surprisingly low. I suppose that doesn't take into consideration his wife's money or something? --M4390116

The source is this, and it seems to be joint number. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yup. The only thing missing is her retirement plan. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to ask but what's your point, M4390116? --Floridianed (talk) 04:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Considering the drop in housing prices (and the stock market) since the article was written, it's probably high. Flatterworld (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok well that's interesting. His net worth is a fraction of that of other candidates. Impressive. Just to be sure though, do you have any other proof besides that CNN article that 1.3 is a joint number? Because that article never directly states that the 1.3 includes his wife's money, does it? M4390116 (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, he wasn't born rich, didn't marry rich, is and wasn't a CEO for a big company and also isn't that much time around as the "others". Makes sense to me and was the reason I wondered and ask about your point regarding your initial question. Kindest regards, --Floridianed (talk) 00:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, great. I just placed my comment and see you changed yours. I'm not going to answer your newly question but as far as I know, there where at least two sources out there for those numbers (which probably came from the same original source anyway). Just believe it or search a bit. I'm sure you'll find your answer ;) . Regards, --Floridianed (talk) 00:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, sorry for editing my post kinda late. Anyway - are you sure he didn't marry rich? According to that article, his wife made in excess of 300,000 a year. Hm. I guess I can do some more research before declaring and opinion haha. M4390116 (talk) 01:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Well.. If you had looked at the article for Michelle Obama, you probably would have gotten the idea that Michelle was not rich at the time her and Obama married. Probably should follow your own advice and do some research before declaring an opinion.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 01:40, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

EXACTLY! And besides that s/he still couldn't answer my simple question about what her/his point is. Just using up space and making this a forum again so let's stop here unless something helpful, related to the article will be posted here. --Floridianed (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

My point was to make sure I was getting accurate info from a source I usually trust.M4390116 (talk) 22:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Criticism

Why there is no article titled Criticism of Barack Obama? This article also lacks any information on criticism. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

In almost all cases, the creation of a criticism article is considered a POV fork. Criticism of Obama, where appropriate, is woven into the body of this article (and its child articles). Please refer to the 33 pages of archived discussion for specifics. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Good luck getting any criticism in here. CENSEI (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason there is no "Criticism ..." article is because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It's hardly possible to read WP:CRIT often enough or carefully enough. LotLE×talk 19:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

There are so many criticism articles like Criticism of George W. Bush, Criticism of Hugo Chavez etc. Then what is the problem with Criticism of Barack Obama? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The individuals who currently WP:OWN this article, will not allow that to happen. CENSEI (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

@ User:Otolemur crassicaudatus - A good Wikipedian will follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, not other articles, for the proper approach. This is a featured article because of a strict adherence to Wikipedia principles and the diligence of editors keeping the article accurate and neutral. Bush and Chavez are individuals that have attracted such a staggering amount of criticism that in the eyes of the editors of those articles, special criticism articles are necessary. Obama, in contrast, has attracted very little criticism - and that has been proportionately and sensibly integrated into the article when appropriate. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

@ User:CENSEI - As I explained to you on your talk page, please keep your personal opinions about other editors out of article talk pages and remain civil. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Just out of curiousity CENSEI and Otolemur, have either of you lobbied for a Criticism of John McCain article as well or is this just about wanting to criticize Obama? --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that criticism forks suck as much as anyone here, but considering that any material of a critical nature, or even material that is perceived as potentially critical is stripped the moment is touches this article doesn’t inspire much faith in me that all editors are looking to write a good article. CENSEI (talk) 20:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Criticism for criticism's sake, for which it looks like you are arguing, is not appropriate per Wikipedia policy. As for the Criticism of X articles, just because one part of the wiki is wrong, it doesn't mean we should drag down other parts. Bush and Chavez, the two examples cited, have a plethora of criticism published in reliable sources, as both rank among the most unpopular leaders in their respective countries. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 21:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Chavez is very popular among the lower income group in his country who form the majority. May be he is not popular among wealthy people, but they form a tiny minority. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 04:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

How about criticism because its notable? How about criticism because its supported by multiple relibale sources? How about criticism because its directly related to the subject of the article? How about criticism because without it the article is NPOV because it excludes other notable opinions? Itneresting though, how you hedged your statement by saying, in effect that criticsm forks are bad in this case, but good in the other because there is so much of it. CENSEI (talk) 22:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

In response to the above rhetorical questions: 1) no - notability is not enough, it also has to be NPOV, of due weight, relevant to the article, etc. 2) multiple reliable sources - no, same answer as #1. 3) NPOV - that's a judgment call. People have judged this article neutral, and heaping on criticism of the article subject for the sake of "balance" is not a neutral exercise. There is no requirement on Wikipedia or in life that every subject has to have a certain pre-set level of disparagement. Wikidemo (talk) 22:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

And thats the problem, in a nutshell. This article is held so tightly by those who have created it, that any edit that has even the appearance of disparagin the subject is reverted. No matter how notable, not matter how relevant, no matter how many RS's agree, the bar can always be raised and enough "concensus" can be whipped up to prevent the inclusion of the material. CENSEI (talk) 23:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to the machine, CENSEI. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

If you bring a cannon to a knife fight and your cannon jams, you don't have a chance. You could bring a knife but better yet, bring some wine and a baked turkey. That will get you further than anything else. Regards, --Floridianed (talk) 23:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I tried that approach, Ed. They devoured the turkey, they drank the wine and they made a Molotov cocktail out of the bottle. I was accused of violating every Wikipedia policy under the sun. If even 5% of the stuff that was said about me had been true, I would have been indefinitely blocked months ago. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Why are you bringing this up here? Please confine discussion to the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Nice theory about there being a cabal, but it just isn't the case. Proceeding as if there is one and accusing people of being part of it only tends to make conversation difficult. I'm not aware of any event of great significance to his biography that has been excluded here, just people wanting to add rather peripheral stuff that mirrors the partisan attacks in the political process relating to the elections. None of this stuff has strong reliable sourcing and none of it is of particular relevance to Obama's biography. You have to remember that there are several hundred thousand news articles and a few hundred million google hits about Obama now. Every aspect of his life is covered somewhere in the mainstream press, and lots of stuff from outer space is getting covered in the blogosphere. This isn't some local restaurant chain in Cincinnati where you're lucky to find two newspaper articles and then declare the subject notable. We could write a long article about event he most trivial thing about Obama - there are thousands of reliable sources, for example, that talk about his basketball playing. Thousands more talk about the way he points and gestures. Amidst all that we have a few hundred that have picked up on this scandal or that, like him being a supposed Muslim, or a terrorist sympathizer, or somebody is going to indict him for fraud. Or people think he uses a teleprompter poorly. The stuff that's most relevant to his life has been included - his connection with Rezko and the church, for instance. The random stuff has not. Random positive stuff gets weeded out too - speeches he makes, visits to our foreign troops, his chili cooking. Every issue, every question of fact stands on its own merits. To accuse editors here of promoting an agenda will only make people defensive and shut down the conversation. Nobody is going to say "aw, gee, I guess you're right. I am part of the cabal. You got me. I'll quit now." So I don't see what one can possibly hope to gain by making that accusation. Wikidemo (talk) 01:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a bit inflammatory to come to a mature, reasonably well written (featured article still, officially) article and announce that it does not contain enough criticism of the subject matter or that people are supposedly conspiring to slant the content. A while back a few people pursued this claim with great vigor, and the result was a lot of edit warring and a number of bans and blocks for bad behavior, plus page protection, article probation, and so on. In the process someone did a survey and found fifteen or so (I don't remember the exact number) points in the article that are critical of Obama. You are welcome to hunt for them. The thing is, this is a biography of him, and it is not about the campaign or any particular scandals. When you tell the story of someone's life you generally don't add in detail everything his detractors say about him. Some things that are the fodder of politics - say, some wording in a speech somebody found to be less patriotic than it could be, misconceptions about his religion, etc - are utterly not relevant to a person's biography. If you have a specific suggestion or question about improving the article, please feel free to discuss it. But I don't think it's helpful to level a broad criticism about other editors. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 22:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Correction, WD: you said somebody found 15 criticisms. He actually found eight, and seven of them weren't really criticisms. I've repeatedly attempted to compare this bio to other WP BLPs that have achieved GA & FA status. They're well-stocked with criticism. The lifeblood of Tony Blair, on the day it received FA status, was criticism. But always some excuse, some rationalization is found to eliminate or at least drastically reduce anything resembling criticism in this article. Now that Freddoso's book has reached #5 on the NYT bestseller list, and received universal acclaim from all sources I've seen except the Obama campaign, how do you feel about adding an excerpt to this article? I can guess. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so we have eight distinct negative points about Obama, and we weathered repeated attempts to push more derogatory content into the article, sometimes with no more justification than that the article ought to cast Obama in a more negative light. I'm pointing out that the premise is faulty - there is criticism of Obama in the article. Any attempt to spin things just for the sake of spinning is a non-starter, and not worth talking about.Wikidemo (talk) 19:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The point of Wikipedia is not to publish original research, but to report what mainstream scholars have written. If one subject is the subject of more criticism than another, it is neither fair nor inline with policy nor Wikipedia's place to provide original criticisms to "compensate". Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 00:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I want to echo what Wikidemo writes--political fodder belongs elsewhere. No one here seems to be trying to protect the Senator from legitimate, principle-based disagreements, and it doesn't help the process to accuse them of such. That said--I think it's inappropriate to provide a running list of criticisms in a biography. I do think it might be relevant to the article to address Senator Obama's response to detractors though; for instance, it seems like he's been working to earn a reputation for being a bit above the fray by responding judiciously to various accusations. I think presenting some of this only expands on the value of the article and it seems like fair biographical content. Perhaps a general program for expanding the article in this way might be to identify two or three reasonably respectable sources of criticism (i.e., not simply hit-pieces, but articles or commentary that takes exception to his political philosophy in some way) and counterpoint them with the Senator's responses. Any thoughts?DRJ (talk) 07:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

For reference, the list of criticisms I created is at Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 31#Existing criticisms in this article. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Ayers again

The Case Aganst Barack Obama by Freddoso, #5 on the NYT bestseller list. A few questions by Stephanopoulos at the start of a certain televised debate. Let's start with that. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

We're done with that. Now if you have any specific suggestions for improving the article, that's what this page is for, not complaining about other editors.Wikidemo (talk) 19:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Done with what? I wasn't sure if you were responding to the proposed program of improvements, or to WorkerBee74's not-helpful suggestions. DRJ (talk) 20:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

We're done with considering whether or not to add to the article allegations that Obama is close to William Ayers - what Stephanopoulos' "few questions" seems to refer to. We decided not to add it. Otolemur crassicaudatus asks a well-meaning but somewhat off-the-subject question, why don't we have any criticism about Obama in his biography. The answer is threefold - first, we do; second, the article as it now exists reflects the participation over a long period of a lot of editors, who have collectively edited the article in incremental fashion; and third, when editing, we have engaged in the encyclopedic practice of considering each fact on its own merits for whether it is verifiable, on topic, neutrally presented, of appropriate weight, and so on - we don't decide on a particular level of positive or negative bias to show the article subject then adjust the prose to match. An editor asking a good-faith question like that is entitled to a straight answer, not to be told that there is some "machine" that is supposedly running Wikipedia.Wikidemo (talk) 21:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The Obama-Bill Ayers issue keeps being called dead by editors here and yet it keeps coming up. Actually, it never goes away. The New York Times bestseller list has three two books that mention it: the first two at No. 1 and No. 5. McCain criticized Obama on it yesterday or today. And this is not enough? We shouldn't need billboards in Times Square and banner headlines on the front page of the New York Times to get a mention on this page. Witness:

• Here's DRJ's "legitimate, principle-based disagreements" that editors would protect Obama from -- David Freddoso, The Case Against Barack Obama, No. 5 NYT bestseller, Chapter 7: "The Radical Influences", pp 121-127: Would you be "friendly" with this man or anyone like him? Would any of your friends? [...] Obama is not a Marxist for his associations and alliances with Marxists, or a radical for his association with radicals. But his ideological influences are decidedly radical, which is an important consideration for voters. I provide the following material on Bill Ayers and on the other radical connections and influences in Obama's life not as a way of suggesting Obama endorses their actions or their far-out beliefs, but as a way of raising some worthwhile questions: (*) Why does Obama associate with such people? (*) What influence have they had on him? (*) What do these relationships tell us about his judgment and the type of people with whom he will entrust executive power if elected? [p. 122-123] [...] [I]t remains both relevant and interesting that Obama is 'friendly' with an unrepentant terrorist who was involved in a movement that killed innocent people, and that he even accepted donations from him to his campaign. How many unrepentant Communist terrorists do you have as friends? [p. 126]
• CBS News, Aug. 21 -- "Conservative Group Links Obama To Ayers In New Ad": A new group called The American Issues Project is spending $2.8 million to run a television ad in Michigan and Ohio linking Barack Obama to Weather Underground figure William Ayers.
• Associated Press, Aug. 20 -- "Barack Obama records sealed at Illinois"
• Chicago Tribune news blog, Aug 20 "Daley won't say whether UIC should release Obama-Ayers records"
• John McCain for President, Aug. 20 -- "William Ayers, Friend of Barack": if Barack Obama wants to have a discussion about truly questionable associations, let’s start with his relationship with the unrepentant terrorist William Ayers, at whose home Obama’s political career was reportedly launched. Mr. Ayers was a leader of the Weather Underground, a terrorist group responsible for countless bombings against targets including the U.S. Capitol, the Pentagon and numerous police stations, courthouses and banks. In recent years, Mr. Ayers has stated, ‘I don’t regret setting bombs … I feel we didn’t do enough.’ “The question now is, will Barack Obama immediately call on the University of Illinois to release all of the records they are currently withholding to shed further light on Senator Obama’s relationship with this unrepentant terrorist?” --McCain spokesman Brian Rogers
• Washington Post, "The Trail" news blog, Aug. 20 -- "McCain Blasts Obama Over William Ayers"

Time to cover it in this article. Noroton (talk) 23:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Ayers is mentioned in Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008, and given continued attempts by the McCain campaign and their proxies to make this into an issue will probably belong in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, but what exactly are the proponents of adding something here suggesting should be added? The last time we went down this path (see Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 31#Twenty words) the suggestion was In April the Bill Ayers election controversy arose when George Stephanopoulos asked Obama about his friendship with bomber William Ayers. (to be added in the 2008 campaign section following the paragraph about Wright). This was rejected as essentially not being noteworthy enough for a general biography written in summary style and, as well, for introducing a guilt by association claim which is prohibited by WP:BLP. As far as I can tell, the same arguments still apply although a concrete proposal for specific words to be added (and where) would probably be much easier to discuss than the general concept. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring the Freddoso reasoning won't make it go away. Simply continued publicity over Ayers, even if you continue to fail to recognize how fair it is to look into the personal associations of a candidate for president of the United States, is reason enough to add a line on Ayers. It would summarize what we already have in both the campaign and Obama-Ayers controversy articles. From there, of course, readers can move on to the article about the unrepentant former terrorist and his former-terrorist wife, terrorist organization and its multiple terroristic activities. You know, at some point the idea that this is a "summary style" article should be an argument in favor of actually summarizing this matter that lends insight into Barack Obama. Please respond to new information, not old information. -- Noroton (talk) 01:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

What line, and where? -- Rick Block (talk) 01:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Because this issue has proven its prominence in the election campaign over many months, I propose adding this language to the campaign section:

In both the primary and general election campaigns, Obama was criticized for poor judgment in associating with William Ayers, a former leader of the violent, radical Weatherman organization of the 1960s and 1970s. Repeatedly criticized as an "unrepentant terrorist", Ayers had become a widely accepted part of Chicago academic and political circles when Obama met him.

I think it's worth mentioning that Obama was not alone in associating with Ayers. The "unrepentant terrorist" line could be cited to about a thousand different sources by now and it's now a phrase associated with Ayers (and it succinctly gets at what critics find shocking). Noroton (talk) 01:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

No (in case my position on this isn't clear from the last 20+ times we discussed it). Wikidemo (talk) 01:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Some perennial proposals are good ideas that have not gained acceptance. Others are just bad ideas. This is the latter. Moreover, the people who bring up proposals to add Ayers to the Obama article are mostly either people new to the page who have not yet reviewed the reasoning and process by which we decided the material was unsuitable to the article, or else people who participated in other attempts and won't take no for an answer. I see nothing new in this proposal, nor any new facts or information. The only thing that is recent is a continuation of the same Republican attack politics. This matter has already been decided, and there is no reason to re-open it at this time. Wikidemo (talk) 01:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Gosh darnit. I really hoped that the Ayers issue would come to an end, and the POV-pushers would be satisfied with the neutral wording at the actual campaign article. But I guess some people never grow tired of attempting to bypass Wikipedia's policies. The proposal is as inappropriate as it was a couple of weeks ago. Come on. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 02:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Noroton - thanks for making this a concrete suggestion. It omits the clearly partisan nature of this "criticism" - which I think argues for including it (or something like it) in the campaign article, but not here since adding more (e.g. Obama's political opponents attempted to make an issue out of ...) gives it even more weight. The problem is whatever point there is can't be made outside the context of the campaign without a whole paragraph. I know you think this gets to Obama's basic character (although "widely accepted part of Chicago academic and political circles" basically contradicts this), but I don't think anyone outside of the right-wing smear machine is seriously pursuing this (there's certainly reporting on the smear machine, but this has effectively nothing to do with Obama). As far as I can tell, including it here simply validates the guilt by association smear. WP:BLP says we don't do that. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Rick, try harder to be tolerant of the points of view of other people. When people disagree with your conclusions about what's relevant in considering a candidate's judgment, that does not automatically make them part of a "smear machine" and your saying it doesn't make it so. It's a legitimate part of considering a candidate for higher office and always has been. It's also a legitimate part of understanding the subject of a Wikipedia article. It isn't as if Wikipedia ignores all sorts of other associations Obama and others have had. And mainstream sources are certainly not ignoring this one. Only this article is. Noroton (talk) 03:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) You know, I actually put some effort into providing new information, and it's being ignored by both of you (Wikidemo and Erik the Red 2). Please do your part and show us you're considering this with an open mind. Freddoso did his part to show you the continued notability of this as a campaign issue about the life of Barack Obama. John McCain and his campaign have done their part. The 527 did its part (as I had predicted). The Associated Press, Chicago Tribune, CBS News have done their part, some of them reporting on Stanley Kurtz doing his part. Heck, even Mayor Daley did his part. We're all doing our part here just to build this encyclopedia (and coincidentally examine the judgment of a potential U.S. president). Please follow our good example. It really doesn't matter whether or not you think it should be an issue in this campaign or something that a lot of people are concerned about regarding Obama's life. It matters that it is an issue. Even Obama thinks associations are important, which is why his campaign attacked McCain for his treatment of Ralph Reed. -- Noroton (talk) 03:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

You are assuming I am ignoring your proposal before saying "no." I am not. I reviewed all the citations, and your argument, and find that they shed no new light on the matter that was not contemplated two weeks ago when it was last considered. The only thing to happen in two weeks is two more weeks of Republican attempts to use the issue to disparage Obama as a way to hurt his election chances. That is already covered in the election articles, and the underlying controversy fully addressed in its own article. The status of this story as a tiny part of the overall election has not changed, nor have any of the weight, relevance, POV, or other issues that make the matter unworthy of including in a biographical article about Obama. You are a solid writer, a thoughtful contributor, and quite often the voice of reason here - in no way am I questioning the sincerity and good faith with which you bring this up again for our consideration. I simply don't think this is important. It would have to be several times bigger of a deal than it is now in order to be worth a phrase or sentence here, so adding 5% more history and sourcing to this isn't going to make much difference. I suspect there's a wide perceptual reference frame issue going on here. Information that seems obviously important to you seems obviously pointless to some others, and attempts to use Wikipedia's policies, reason, etc., are only confirming our respective positions. So to the people on either side of this, the other's position looks quite unreasonable. Wikidemo (talk) 04:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) - I'd like to make two observations here:

1. The "relationship" that Obama had with Ayers has not suddenly changed because the Republican attack machine has been mentioning it more often. Obama did not travel back to the '60s in a time machine and join the Weathermen.
2. Editors are using poor judgment by repeatedly calling Ayers an "unrepentant terrorist" or a "former terrorist", and calling Dohrn a "former-terrorist wife". These are BLP violations:

   Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.

   Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material not related or useful to making article content choices should be deleted, and even permanently removed ("oversighted") if especially problematic (telephone number, libel, etc).

Use of these terms is potentially libelous, as has previously been discussed.

In summary, there is nothing new about the Ayers relationship (as Rick Block has said), so there is no reason to bring it up. And we need to be more careful about avoiding libelous commentary. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

1. the "relationship" -- now see, I didn't use that word, I said, in associating with.
2. "Editors are using poor judgment by repeatedly calling ..." Actually, I sourced it. Please scroll up to my post at 23:11, 21 August. For Ayer's wife, it's on the Wikipedia article that's devoted just to her because she was, well, a terrorist. And an unrepentant one, to boot. She signed her name to Weather Underground statements announcing attacks would be taking place or taking credit for bombings because, well, she was head of the Weather Underground. That may have something to do with the interesting category listing at the bottom of her Wikipedia article. Do I need to provide another 30 sources at AN/I for that? If I did, would you read them this time? Please tell me if more sourcing is needed and I'll be happy to add a ton of it. Verified facts aren't BLP violations. Please don't ask for sourcing before you've looked at the sourcing already given. Guess who's WP:WELLKNOWN. Hint: Everybody I mentioned.
3. When the libel action is filed, I think Wikipedia will be way back in line. They'll have to go through the McCain campaign, the author and publisher of the No. 5 book on the New York Times Bestseller List for hardcover nonfiction, the author and publisher of the No. 1 book on the New York Times Bestseller List for hardcover nonfiction, numerous academic books going back 30 years and ... well, you get the idea.
4. Oh, and there's another person they'll have to file a libel charge against: One Tommy Vietor who said that Bill Ayers committed "detestable crimes" -- strong language, isn't it? [6] Vietor said his boss had "denounced" those detestable crimes. Which makes one wonder why Vietor's boss was visiting the home of the person who committed "detestable crimes", appearing on panel discussions with him that were organized by that boss's wife, sitting for years on a small foundation board with Ayers and accepting a $200 contribution from Ayers. But you have the word of Barack Obama's spokesman, Tommy Vietor that Bill Ayers committed "detestable crimes." Now why isn't Obama's associating with a guy famous for committing "detestable crimes" a part of this article? -- Noroton (talk) 03:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Obama did not travel back to the '60s in a time machine and join the Weathermen. No, but I traveled back in time to answer your point before you made it. Scjessey, please scroll up to that pesky post of mine at 23:11, 21 August. Please read the part where I quote Freddoso. I'd be happy to expand on that if you find anything about it confusing. Thank you. -- Noroton (talk) 04:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Noroton, please stop the resumption of bickering and baiting for an obviously unencyclopedic agenda, and against the overwhelming consensus of editors. It was exactly this kind of behavior that led to the last million administrative complaints and that put this article on probation. No matter how much you want to push this smear, it simply does not have, and never had, any proper place in this article. LotLE×talk 04:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Website?

I think this should be in the section where it shows his website. The Obama for Illinois senator is old and outdated. http://www.barackobama.com/splash/first_to_know.html user:chasesboys

Saddleback

Hi all! Just wondering if we can't fit in some comment on Senator Obama's recent policy-related comments at the Saddleback debate/forum...He made a couple of comments that seemed important as regards his presidential campaign and policy approach, particularly with regards to poverty, abortion, taxation, faith-based organizations, and adoption legislation. Comments? DRJ (talk) 05:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Saddleback probably isn't big enough to make the main article, but some of his comments could be used to flesh out the applicable positions on Political positions of Barack Obama and a brief mention of the forum and reaction could probably be included on Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 06:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I know a valuation of the event is subjective, but it was the first time the two presumptive presidential nominees have gone head-to-head in some fashion for this election cycle. Additionally, the forum was unique for it's format, content, and location--I don't know of any similar forums in recent presidential election history. These are the reasons I thought it might merit a brief mention on this page as well as a longer comment on either the campaign or Forum page. I'm thinking something brief for this page, like "On August 16th, 2008, Senators Obama and McCain participated in a "Civil Forum on the Presidency" at Saddleback Church. At this forum, Senator Obama re-stated his support for Roe v. Wade while expressing concern over a purported increase in the number of abortions during the presidency of George W. Bush; he stated that family incomes in excess of $150,000 may be subject to nominal tax increases under his policies, and identified Clarence Thomas as a Supreme Court Justice he would not have nominated, citing lack of experience on Thomas' part. Additionally, he identified personal selfishness as his own greatest moral failure, and a failure to care for the disenfranchised as America's greatest moral failure, referencing Matthew 25." I feel like these few sentences are brief, accurate, and relevant to a clear understanding of the Senator and his political philosophy. These also skirt the sort of controversies which are more relevant for the Forum page, in my opinion. If, however, Senator Obama has expressed since the forum a re-statement or clarification of anything mentioned, we'd want to amend it as such. Anyhow, I'm feeling like the above is valuable for this page and I'd like to see something similar on the John McCain page, but as always, these things remain open to discussion. DRJ (talk) 07:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

These suggested additions are phrased in a neutral enough fashion, and well enough cited. However, they are absolutely huge relative to this summary style biography of Obama's entire life. A few statements made during a one hour debate/interview are not of such huge importance... this is more words, for example, than are spent on Obama's legal career, or on his marriage, or on his state senate tenure. WP:WEIGHT suggests this material is far too peripheral for inclusion here. LotLE×talk 17:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Got it. I think I can pare it down even further to make sure it has a good weight for the article. I'm going to insert it as: "On August 16th, 2008, Senators Obama and McCain participated in a "Civil Forum on the Presidency" at Saddleback Church." This will allow for a link within this article to an expanded article on the forum. Thanks! DRJ (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Er...no. This is Obama's BLP. Campaign-related stuff goes in campaign. There's no way that this event was significant enough to warrant inclusion on this BLP. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't take this as an irritated response, but the demeaning tone with which you open your response is out of place on this page. That said, this was a significant event for the above stated reasons--particularly because it was the first time the two presumptive presidential nominees have gone head-to-head in some fashion for this election cycle. You'll find similar content on the other guy's BLP. I'll wait a couple more days to re-enter the content, but I'm not accepting your hasty rejection as sufficient. I'd like to hear other comments. So, we know what Scjessey feels, and we know how I feel (I feel this is important for the in-page campaign portion) but for those who would like to comment, the added material reads as follows: When Obama became the Democrats' presumptive nominee, John McCain proposed joint town hall meetings that would include audience interaction, but Obama instead requested more traditional debates for the fall. On August 16th, 2008, Senators Obama and McCain participated in a "Civil Forum on the Presidency" at Saddleback Church.

It was not meant to be demeaning. You must build consensus for edits on this BLP, particularly those that don't follow established convention or policy. This proposal was only made a few hours ago, and almost nobody has had an opportunity to weigh in on it, but you jumped right in and added it. There is nothing inherently wrong with the text you have proposed - it is simply in the wrong article. Campaign-related stuff goes in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 (this was explained by another editor above). John McCain's proposal for town hall meetings was a campaign ploy to address his problem with giving speeches to large crowds, so that is a matter for the McCain campaign article. Furthermore, the bit about Saddleback Church was original research, which we certainly cannot accept. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand the need to build consensus. I'm not sure if I agree with the assumption that McCain's proposal was due to his (do you mean McCain?) problem w/ large crowds. I'm also not sure how if McCain's proposal's assumed motivation is relevant to his page, Obama's refusal's assumed motivation is not. I know that's a confusing sentence, but the gist of the matter is I'm a "consistency-freak." But anyhow, I'll drop it and put it on the campaign page. Also, what do you mean by original research w/ regards to Saddleback Church? That was simply mentioning the location of a televised and recorded event. These questions aren't meant in a combative sense, but with the intention of becoming a better Wiki-tributor. Thanks again! DRJ (talk) 00:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Without wishing to sound like a broken record, the campaign-related stuff goes in the campaign article. We can only afford to briefly summarize the campaign here, and that means there isn't room for extremely insignificant Church Forums or McCain's town hall goading effort. Regarding the original research question, your Saddleback edit did not cite any references (which makes it original research by default). -- Scjessey (talk) 02:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

(out) Without going in to who has what tone, Scjessey is absolutely right about the non-relevance of this event to an overall biography. Even a single sentence describing the event would be WP:UNDUE weight for the general biography. In the campaign article or the political positions one, I think it could fit fine though. LotLE×talk 21:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

No. This is his biography, the story of his entire life. No way does the Saddleback conversation warrant a mention on his life story. Yes, on the campaign article. But a mention here would be undue weight. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 02:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

George Hussein Onyango Obama

I just added to the family section the information about George Hussein Onyango Obama, as published yesterday by Vanity Fair Italy. It was removed by User:Speer320. Why? I verified the information and it is correct. --Dejudicibus (talk) 12:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a summary style article that spins off details like this into child articles (otherwise this would be several megabytes in size). There is currently an article for this individual that is expected to be merged into Family of Barack Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so where exactly should I place that information? In any case I think it would be more correct to talk about that here rather than simply delete. If Spear320 had asked me to move the information in a more suitable position, I would have do it. Do you agree?--Dejudicibus (talk) 12:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The information has already been added in the appropriate place. No need for you to do anything further. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but again Scjessey, your attitude is demeaning here. Try to be constructive and offer advice so that Dejudicibus is able to be a better editor in the future. DRJ (talk) 21:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Please drop the "demeaning" commentary, will you? You have not been part of this particular thread, and you've just stepped in to have a go at me. Clearly you are unaware that Dejudicibus and I had a long conversation about this here, rather than filling up this talk page with tangential meta discussion. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so I'll answer the question. We've put all the Obama minor family members in the article Family of Barack Obama. The way they all got there was that some people added them here and they got deleted as being fairly unimportant to Obama's life. They created separate articles for each family member and those got deleted often as being non-notable. Tthe information had to go somewhere (it has lots of sources, and people want to know - it is notable). The best approach, meaning the one that hasn't been deleted, is to put all the family members together in an article. Hope that helps. Wikidemo (talk) 01:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)