Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Manchester United wartime guest players

Based on stats from Jack Rollin's excellent book Soccer at War: 1939 - 45, I've compiled a list of all of Manchester United's guest players from during the Second World War. However, they were all without full names – only initials – and while I was able to match a few articles to some of the names (thanks to anyone who categorised articles into Category:Manchester United F.C. wartime guest players), I was wondering if anyone here would be able to help identify a few more names. If you recognise a name, feel free to fill in the full name, along with any common nickname(s), and preferably link to the player's article if he has one. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. – PeeJay 22:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I think if that category has been around since before the start of this year then all Vale players are already in there.--EchetusXe (talk) 23:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I've added a couple of players I recognise. One option is to manually search Neil Brown's site by surname, for any post-war matches. Cheers, GiantSnowman 23:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Added in Paddy Sloan, who is almost certainly the JW Sloan listed in the article. Qwghlm (talk) 11:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this list. I get the feeling that some of these players may be untraceable, although I live in hope that we'll be able to identify most of them. – PeeJay 19:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll have a trail through the recent Sheffield United Who's Who book which has career stats for every Blades player ever. Bladeboy1889 (talk) 11:35, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Fully pro leagues

Is there a comprehensive list of fully-pro leagues? The Hack 02:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues chandler 02:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Is that list current and comprehensive? The Hack 02:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Current, yes, generally so. Comprehensive, No. Feel free to find verification from reliable sources and add as appropriate. --ClubOranje^T 05:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

What about making this list an article: List of fully professional football (soccer) leagues? I think, it would be very helpful and informative. EA210269 (talk) 05:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The next question will be: what does fully professional mean? For example "Development" players (who are full squad members) in the MLS are on about US$12k a year. This is the top tier of three US leagues considered fully professional.The Hack 06:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you survive on 12k a year in the US? You couldn't really in Australia, I wouldn't think they are fully professional. EA210269 (talk) 07:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Although professional football was introduced in the Netherlands in 1954, the first fullpro club was DWS in 1965. In 1964 there were still salary caps. Minimum wage: 1500 gulden a year for 12 players. 1000 gulden for additional players. Maximum wage 10000 gulden a year for 6 players, 5000 gulden for additional players. There was a 20% bonus for players serving a club for more than 5 years. Many Eredivisie players in the 70's were still semipro. Cattivi (talk) 09:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

It's clear that there is going to be a lot of gray area, so it's best to just go with the definitions that make the most sense logically on all accounts. Even with the "development" players in the MLS, it's pretty clear that it should still be treated as a fully-professional league. matt91486 (talk) 13:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem with a list such as this is that it overlooks the historical aspects. I expect that every (now) professional league, throughout the world, has evolved from being wholly/mainly amateur to fully-professional. There were amateur players in the Football League at least into the 1950s and possibly later. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 16:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Naming convention for not-easily-named matches

Over at Talk:Liverpool 0–2 Arsenal (26 May 1989) there is a debate over the form of article titles for matches which are notable, but do not have a formal title such as 2006 FIFA World Cup Final or a well-established nickname such as Agony of Doha. There doesn't seem to be a consistent name form - looking over the category for matches, it varies considerably, e.g.:

• Teams + scoreline: e.g. Arbroath 36–0 Bon Accord, Australia 31–0 American Samoa
• Teams + scoreline + year: e.g. Germany 1–5 England (2001)
• Teams + versus: e.g. Bayern Munich v Norwich City
• Teams + versus + year: e.g. England v Scotland (1872), Hungary v Poland (1921), Hereford United v Newcastle United 1972
• Teams + versus + year + competition: Argentina v England (1986 FIFA World Cup quarter-final)

Including team names, and years, seem fairly elementary and non-controversial. Some additional thoughts:

• Putting scorelines in articles works in disambiguating that particular match amongst others, as well as emphasising the notability of the game - matches are generally remembered more so by their scoreline than by their date, in my experience.
• Putting the competition into the title is probably overkill - for example, England and Argentina only played once in 1986 and there is no need to disambiguate.
• Putting the full date into the title is probably overkill, unless the two teams played each other more than once in a year and the scores were identical in each.

So I propose article titles of the format Team A x–y Team B (year), with an optional further disambiguation to Team A x-y Team B (date) if the year and scoreline aren't sufficient on their own. Others' thoughts are welcome... Qwghlm (talk) 11:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I think Team A x–y Team B (year) will suffice; I doubt there are going to be two matches between the same teams in the same year which both result in a 'notable' match. GiantSnowman 11:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

On a related point, while it would be hard to argue that Liverpool 0–2 Arsenal (26 May 1989) was less notable than say, 2003 Football Conference play-off Final, I fear that by allowing articles for matches that don't have a name, we're opening the floodgates for a load of crud, i.e. people creating woeful articles for every match played by their team in whatever season we happen to be in. How do we prevent this and what are the notability criteria for a match article? --Jameboy (talk) 11:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

We've had AfDs on some single match articles. The usual bar is the usual one for Wikipedia. If the game is sufficiently notable, there'll be lots of reliable sources discussing it, in a non-trivial manner. (And doing so long after the event, too). It's hard to ascribe criteria, but usually the match will be a particularly significant one in the history of one or both of the participating clubs, something that will need to be demonstrated in the article, with RS to back it up. --Dweller (talk) 12:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not a case of 'allowing' articles that do not have a name - these articles already exist. And Dweller is right - basic rules on notability concerning non-trivial coverage from multiple reliable sources, i.e. above & beyond a single match report - will adequately cover matches in this case. Qwghlm (talk) 12:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the non-trivial coverage sums it up really. People are still writing about thta Liverpool v Arsenal match. I presume that there will never be any full, in-depth review of Aston Villa 1–0 Newcastle in the years to come. The bar for notability is already set higher than the week's news reports. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{WIKIPROJECT ATHLETICS NEEDS YOU!} 13:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This Afd might prove useful, especially the comments that came in after my post to it at 15:48 on August 30th 2007, at which point the article had finished a major enhancement that better explained the notability. --Dweller (talk) 14:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it depends on what makes the match notable notable. Germany 1-5 England was notable because of the scoreline. England v Scotland (1872) is notable because of the year in which it was played.

I think it should be team a v team b (year) or team a ?-? team b (year) as the standard.--EchetusXe (talk) 17:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Where the year disambiguation is unnecessary, it seems silly to use it, eg the Hereford-Newcastle game or the Bon Accord one. --Dweller (talk) 09:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

The more I think about this, the more I think standardising a convention is a bad idea. Matches notable for their score need the score in their title. Others do not. Some need disambiguation, using year will be normal, but the Eng / Arg example above is a good case of where that would be insufficient. I think that the standardisation should go as far as to set parameters to be chosen from - dates, if used, go at the end in brackets. Versus, if used, should be a simple "v". Which dash to use in scorelines. Etc. --Dweller (talk) 15:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Brechin City badly vandallised

Hi I've noticed that Brechin City's entry is badly vandalised and needs to be sorted out by some one who knows about the club. (3 June 2009) Biofuelsimon (talk) 11:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

James Whatman Way

I could accept an article on an as-yet-unbuilt stadium being built by a Premier League team, but an as-yet-unbuilt stadium being built by a semi-professional team playing in the seventh tier of English football surely isn't notable? If it matters, note that, although the article claims the stadium will be ready for next season, in fact building work hasn't even started in earnest and the club will be groundsharing with Ashford Town F.C. (Kent) next season -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be quite a bit of news coverage over the past few years, not just from local papers either; several BBC articles exclusively covering the stadium. I haven't looked in-depth but it probably meets WP:N. – Toon^(talk) 20:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Fully professional leagues dispute

At WP:FPL, a user keeps adding the top three tiers of the Israeli football system to the list citing a foreign source. The Israeli Premier League is fully-pro. However, it's highly unlikely that the second and third divisions are, but I'm at as loss as what to do/how to resolve the issue. --Jimbo^[online] 22:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Erm, the last time I checked it was customary to engage in dialogue with the user in question either on the article talk page or on the user's talk page prior to bringing it up here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Hopeless nostalgic, you. Madcynic (talk) 09:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Whilst hunting around for something to swing this argument one way or another, I found this forum post which says that Hapoel Acre (who at the time were in Liga Leumit) "has always been considered a semi-professional team". Not sure whether this is meant literally (i.e. they really are semi-pro) or whether it's just supporters of rival teams who feel this way, but it's a little something to start with. If they really are semi-pro though, the fact they've just been promoted to the top flight is also interesting... Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 13:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Aha! According to this FIFA document, Israel has two professional leagues, which I guess refers to Liga Haal and Liga Leumit. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 13:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. Well I guess that solves the problem of players currently playing in Leumit, but next season (due to league restructuting), half its teams are moved upwards and it absorbs the rest of Liga Artzit, so from next season there will almost certainly only be one fully pro league. пﮟოьεԻ 57 14:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

That sounds about right to me. If we go ahead and add Leumit to the list, we'll have to add a bracketted note saying that it's fully-pro only up until this year (or whenever the switchover takes place). Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 15:23, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Notability question

I don't know what constitutes notability for football related articles, but I came across this article in Special:NewPages: Celtic FC Result 10/08/2008. I've left it with a plain notability tag, but maybe it qualifies for speedy delete.

Also, the same user created Celtic F.C. season 2008–09. I would strike me as something that might already exist, or fit in somewhere else, or be called something else ... but like the above, I don't know. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 22:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't qualify under any of the CSD criteria but certainly not notable; I've Prodded it. – Toon^(talk) 22:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Ugh. Contested without explanation by page creator, I've AfD'd at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Celtic FC Result 10/08/2008‎. – Toon^(talk) 22:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:FLRC on List of English football champions

Folks. Quick note, we've got a football-related featured list (a pretty important one!) which has been nominated for demotion from its featured status. For those who are interested in helping out, see the criteria (which have been recently and quite significantly reworked) and then get stuck in. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Kenny Dalglish and Proactive

What do people think of my solution of including the Proactive agency/Paul Stretford trial info in the article? There's been a lot of back and forth on this but I still think it doesn't warrant a great deal of attention. I'd appreciate other's thoughts. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{WIKIPROJECT ATHLETICS NEEDS YOU!} 14:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Bob Jack

Listed in the Port Vale F.C. players category I went to expand it. Only when I went to write in the details of his career there I discovered hes not in any of my books. Can anyone do some research and see if and when he signed for Vale and what happened? In the area of 1902 apparently.--EchetusXe (talk) 19:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Michael Joyce doesn't mention Port Vale, takes him straight from Glossop to Plymouth. Doesn't prove he was never there, though. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 19:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

OK thanks, I better just leave it for someone who has details of him then. I already added an infobox and such.--EchetusXe (talk) 14:23, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Nominated English football champions as FLRC

I have nominated List of English football champions for featured list removal here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured list criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks; editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OdinFK (talk • contribs) 19:39, June 5, 2009 (UTC)

Scandinavian clubs of the 1930s

According to both Joyce and Matthews, Len Evans, Wales international goalkeeper, went somewhere called Svenborg in 1935 after finishing at Birmingham and before becoming trainer at Blackburn. Can anyone possibly tell me where Svenborg is, assuming that's the right spelling, and whether Mr Evans was playing or coaching or what he was doing there? thanks, Struway2 (talk) 19:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Svendborg is a Danish provice town. Once apon a time they had quite a football team. Today plays FC Svendborg in the Danish 2nd Division. kalaha 21:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Confederation Cup squad templates

Are Confederation Cup squad templates like this actually useful for Wikipedia? Thoughts? --Angelo (talk) 00:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I say keep it - it's a top-level international comp, after all. GiantSnowman 20:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Confederations Cup navbox templates would support GiantSnowman's assertion. --ClubOranje^T 07:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Andy Aitken

Two of the footballers named Andy Aitken have been moved to (born xxxx) rather than (footballer born xxxx). Could an admin please revert these moves? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 04:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Done. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 05:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:00, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Robert Campbell

This needs a bit of sorting in the names, as they are unnecessarily long. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Needs an admin as the pages without the nationality in the title are already redirects to the existing page titles.--EchetusXe (talk) 14:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The Bobby Campbells were moved by an inexperienced editor who seemed to think they needed the year of birth in the page name, I've moved them back to dab by nationality. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Large flags in match articles

Regarding the use of flags in international match articles (e.g. 2006 FIFA World Cup Final), we have the small flag icons in the infobox and in the match details section, fair enough. But do we really need the large flags above the team line-ups as well? These are disproportionately large, unnecessary and patronise the reader. Does anyone have any objections to me removing these? --Jameboy (talk) 12:43, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

No objections, I'd also remove them from the infobox as well, they are just there for decoration. - fchd (talk) 13:23, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Dutch speaker?

'Jeroentje is door hem neer geschopt. hij wou hem toen uitkappen maar jeroentje gaf de bal voor. Rhoon heeft toen met 7-1 gewonnen'

I'm re-writing the Nico Jalink article. Sadly it seems to have been deleted from the Dutch Wikipedia for that reason. Can anyone translate that for me as I am curious to know why?--EchetusXe (talk) 15:39, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

From my rudimentary understanding, it seems to have been an act of vandalism. Madcynic (talk) 16:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Google translate suggests that he did something, was kicked out (sacked?) and then the team went on to win 7-1? :S Uksam88 (talk) 16:33, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Looking at it again the full text is: "Aangemaakt door 92.67.63.178. De inhoud was..."

I imagine it therefore reads 'Content was... blah blah sacked 7-1 win'--EchetusXe (talk) 16:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

'Little Jeroen' was kicked down by him. He wanted to turn past him, but little Jeroen crossed the ball. Rhoon won 7-1 on that day ??? Cattivi (talk) 17:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

haha thank you. I'm pretty sure the article had some content before it was seemingly reduced to that sentence. Anyway, not our problem.--EchetusXe (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Pavarotti and Modena FC - again

Hi all, I've been recently dealing with a disputed inclusion of a Pavarotti and Modena FC section within Modena F.C. by an anonymous user. Since the user seems to be definitely WP:POINTing his arguments against evidence, I would appreciate if you might join Talk:Modena F.C. and discuss the issue there. --Angelo (talk) 18:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

1) I am not anonymous as I always use this same IP address. 2) You are lying about the scope of the previous discussion. The previous discussion, which did not even occur on Talk:Modena F.C, so I had no way of knowing about that discussion, involved whether Pavarotti was a PLAYER, not a SUPPORTER. So for you to threaten me telling me not to add information about a supporter because of a two year old discussion about whether he is a player is a flat out lie. How is someone supposed to know about discussion that doesn't even occur on the talk page??? 69.253.207.9 (talk) 18:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Simply not to have an account is to be anonymous. It could be anyone behind that IP. IP's can be changed by the IP provider at any time without warning to the user let alone anyone else. Anyway, I hope this dispute can be resolved sensibly. I know nothing about it so am I choosing not to get involved.--EchetusXe (talk) 19:16, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Corry Evans

Corry Evans made his full debut for Northern Ireland tonight against Italy, however he is yet to play in a competitive match for Man Utd, so is he now notable or as he plays for Man Utd does he still not qualify? Jimmy Skitz's Answer Machine 19:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd think he's notable now, as long as reliable sources are used of course. Mattythewhite (talk) 19:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, Andrew Little was in a similar position, as he played for NI before he played for Rangers. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:17, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Same goes for Shane Ferguson; he's just come on now. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The Scott Brown affair.

Scott P. Brown (English footballer) Scott Brown (English footballer)

Both decided to go and play for Bristol City in 2004 and 2005 and both played for Cheltenham Town between 2007 and 2009.

Now one of them decided to get arrested in October 2005, it would be pretty embarrassing on our part to label the wrong one as the brawler.

However I believe its my guy (no middle name) based on the fact that in 2006 the BBC was still calling the three guys teammates despite P.Brown having moved on to Cheltenham by then. Also here is the face of the convicts, here is P Brown. White guys all look the same to me, but I'm pretty sure that the goalkeeper is not one of those 3 pictured.

I'm confident I have reported the correct Scott Brown as the one arrested, but with the chances of a cock-up so obvious I decided it best if I got confirmation here.--EchetusXe (talk) 22:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

CA Marbella#Selected former players

I would appreciate a third opinion on Talk:CA Marbella#Famous players. Rettetast (talk) 12:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Yugoslav First League in the 90´s

This may sound strange, but I´m really having a hard time to find the complete squad lists of the Yugoslav First League teams from 1991 until 2000. The Playerhistory website is incomplete. Can anyone help me? FkpCascais (talk) 19:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Someone has placed scans of pages of certain years of the "Fudbal SiCG Alamanah" (published by Tempo) on the web. Here is one from the 02/03 version with a portion of the Vojvodina squad. I'm not sure if someone has copies of the actual almanacs somewhere, especially for the years you're looking for, but there are plenty of scans from post-2000 almanacs here and perhaps someone at that forum has older ones. Jogurney (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, thanx a lot, I´ll check the almanachs to see if I have some foreign players missing, since that is the main reason I need the squads, to complete my Foreign players list , but I think I have the seasons since 2000 pretty much covered. It´s becoming very anoing for me since without finding the 90´s statistics I can´t finish the list. The almanachs may also sometimes be inacurate becouse the majority of the times are published before the transfer window is closed... I thouth I had the list almost done, but I´ve founded missing a brazilian in the "great" Red Star, argentinians from Vojvodina... imagine the medium and smaller clubs... FkpCascais (talk) 21:00, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Very strange redirect

I don't get it...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history, it seems that Scottish Division Two and Scottish Second Division are different concepts - Division Two was the old second tier (which is now called the First Division), whilst the Second Division is the modern third tier. Takes semantics to a whole new level! пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

When the league now known as the Scottish Premier League was first renamed from Division One to the Premier Division, the old Division Two became the First Division, much as how the Football League Third Division is now Football League Two. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the world of football, where everyone is in the top flight lol.--EchetusXe (talk) 11:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Gordon Lennon

This Scottish player has recently died, but as far as I can see, he's only played in the semi-pro Scottish second & third divisions...can anyone prove his notability? Cheers, GiantSnowman 11:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. I checked earlier that he didn't have an article after seeing the BBC story, but obviously someone has created it since then. This is definitely a WP:ONEEVENT story, so I'll prod it. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The prod was removed without explanation, hence Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gordon Lennon. пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm disappointed in this one - the idea that a player is notable by "passing" WP:ATHLETE with one appearance as a sub in a professional league, but isn't notable at all for their sporting career otherwise is fairly ridiculous. There's too much of a mentality that articles are either "football articles" or "non-football articles" around here, leading to the situation where "football articles" are judged exclusively on where they sit on WP:ATHLETE while "non-football" articles aren't allowed to be judged on minor sporting achievements at all. But we'll see what the AfD brings up. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Looks like its brought up a complete stalemate thus far.--EchetusXe (talk) 11:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

English clubs in the European Cup

This isn't going anywhere fast. Before I give in and take it to AfD, anyone fancy having a go at turning into a real article? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh boy, that thing really is an utter mess. I think it would be worthwhile to AfD this and complete English clubs in European football instead - the European Cup records only go up to 1966-67, and there's no mention of the Cup Winners Cup or UEFA Cup at all. The only question is, would we need all three competitions in one article, or would it better to split it (and therefore keep that article)? Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 13:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Considering that next to none of it is referenced (in either article), I wouldn't have a problem with a solution which involved liberal use of the delete key to be honest. But yeah, a merge there is a good place to start. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:49, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Victor Petroni

Doesn't look like a notable player, and I thought you people might be able to sort it more quickly than I can. Thanks, or get back to me if I need to AfD it myself, or whatever. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

He is notable. He played in the fully-pro National Professional Soccer League (1984–2001), meeting WP:ATHLETE, and was even elected to the end-of-season All-Star team in 1986. The article does need cleaning up though. GiantSnowman 22:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Another notability question

I've come across this article about an amateur league in Ireland, which links to pages about all of its Senior teams, and many of its lesser teams. The linked articles say nothing more than that the team is a member of the LSL. Does Wikipedia really need articles on every amateur football league and team? WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

My first impressions were that the league is probably notable enough but the teams most certainly aren't. However, the league article states that teams from this league enter the FAI Cup and other such competitions. Considering that a general rule-of-thumb for English non-leaguers is participation in FA competitions, should we apply the same logic here? And if so, to what degree? Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 13:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Gordon Ramsay

As far as I was aware, Gordon Ramsay was only ever a youth player at Rangers...however, an article written by him in 2002 claims that he made two first-team appearances, saying "I played two first-team games, against St Johnstone and Morton. Both away and both shit in the sense that I played 20 minutes and 10 minutes." Can anyone verify this? Cheers, GiantSnowman 12:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Not quite... [1] [2] and many more... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, cheers! GiantSnowman 13:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

navbox conversions

I noticed a box in need of conversion, Template:1986 FIFA World Cup, and I'm having trouble figuring out the markup to prevent nested boxes from being broken. Any assistance would be appreciated, especially because I would then be able to make these edits properly on other templates. Thanks. JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 14:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I've had a go at this - it's a bit weird to nest the templates like that, but that can be sorted out later. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Hungaria FbC Roma

A copuple of players – Ferenc Nyers and Nicolae Simatoc are just two that spring to mind – played for a Hungarian club called Hungaria FbC Roma in the early 1950s. Seeing as these players also played at the top-levels of France and Spain respectively, I presume Hungaria FbC Roma was/is a notable club. Does anyone know if Hungaria FbC Roma is the correct naming convention, and if not, what is? And does anyone have any further details on the club? Cheers, GiantSnowman 15:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Hungaria FbC Roma was an exhibition team who played some matches in Italy (sure), maybe in other countries (I don't know)? It was not an official team.--Latouffedisco (talk) 18:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Did it play any famous teams? And did it have any other famous players? Basically, would it be notable enough for an article? GiantSnowman 21:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere that the club was a team formed by hungarian players that escaped the communist regime, but I´m far from sure. You can find more players in the rsssf webpage, in expatriate players in Italy list, it says the players career, and I remember finding many hungarians that also played in Hungaria Roma. I´ll give you the exact web page when I find it, and you´ll have to check the entire list (borring,I know) to see another players that played there. Another thing is that I´ve founded in a sebian official website of Hajduk Kula, in the historic section that Ferenc Nyers played for a predecessor team, but I didn´t add this info to the players page becouse I don´t know if it can be used as a reference, and becouse it doesn´t mention the exact years that he spent in the club. FkpCascais (talk) 23:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it worths an article, due to the political background of this team, the players who played for it. I don't know which teams it played however. I think you should ask User:Necronudist, maybe he has some datas and informations about this. Cheers.--Latouffedisco (talk) 09:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I haven't :-) I heard about that team, but nothing much has been written about it. We're Italians, we don't care about history. What's on TV right now? :-P --necronudist (talk) 10:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah "Valentino Rossi", that´s why you´ve made the all-time Serie A players list, to remember the glorious PAST days of italian calcio... :))) . You said you´re gonna help me with my lists, and you only gave me one valiable name, O.Gazzari... FkpCascais (talk) 17:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

My girlfriend lives in L'Aquila, I have other things to think about. However, I don't like the way you're doing the list... it's not a well organized work, I'm afraid I would be only a danger. --necronudist (talk) 18:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is the hungarian players and managers in Italy list [3]* . Christian, what you dislake in my list. Dont tell me again about the ex-Yu players. They are considered foreigners since 1992, a long way ago... Since you colabore with playerhistory website, you cold chek me the 90´s, and the Williams, brazilian Red Star player, help that I´ve already desperately asked :(. I´m a Great Mexican Earthquake survivor, you know... FkpCascais (talk) 19:58, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you finded more players,Giantsnowman? Are you making the article? I vote for you doing it. As Latouffedisco said, it would be interesting becouse of its background. Sorry can´t help you more... I imagine that it would only be hard to categorize it... Hungarian club,in Italy,non-official team, I can´t remember more exemples of this kind of clubs. I imagine that in this case, the hungarian players formed a club as a temporary solution, so they could continue with the trainings untill each one of them started playing for "real" clubs. FkpCascais (talk) 23:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Question regarding club appearances and league matches

Hi,

Would it be possible to have the "Senior club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only" message disabled for a specific player? In Brazil (and I bet in other countries, too) we usually count all goals a player has scored for a given team in every *official* match, regardless of whether it was for the local state league, one of the many national domestic leagues (there's no such thing as "the" domestic league in Brazil), or international leagues (Copa Libertadores, for instance).

What is happening right now is that .br users are simply ignoring that message -- and providing bad information to our readers. I'd say the vast majority of the pages concerning Brazilian football players are wrong in that regard.

Thank you for your attention.

Pedrovsky (talk) 17:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Not that I know of. In those circumstances I just write a note explaining the stats are for all competitions. I imagine that would be a pain the ass though for an entire countries worth of players huh?--EchetusXe (talk) 00:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

As I said at Template talk:Infobox Football biography 2#Question regarding club appearances and league matches, it wouldn't be hard to add a Brazilian = yes parameter which could be used to display a different message on those articles. The question is whether the Project thinks that having a different rule for Brazilian clubs is worth codifying. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

When the topic was last discussed at Template talk:Infobox Football biography/Archive 4#Why only league appearances?, the reasons for only including league appearances were 1) league stats were thought to be more readily available, both over time and geographically; 2) including cups would immediately open the door to "debate" as to what cups should be counted; so 3) for consistency, we should standardise on something for which the data is available and definitive.

Do the reliable sources in Brazil really count everything, including Copa do Brasil, local cups if there are such things, all in together? for players at "big" clubs and smaller clubs? historically as well as now? Because if they do, then the reasons given above wouldn't apply to Brazil, and perhaps we should allow them a variation. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The only good sources I've found (Guardian's Stats Centre and Globo Esporte's Futpedia) report Campeonato Brasileiro Serie A and/or Copa do Brasil matches (it's easy to separate the totals for each). ESPN Soccernet reports some state championship statistics (e.g., the top level of the Carioca), but I don't believe it's complete. In short, I think it's reasonable to limit the infobox to Brasileiro Serie A (or Serie B, if anyone can find a good source for it) statistics. Jogurney (talk) 12:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

OK guys, fair enough. Thank you for the prompt answers. :-) Pedrovsky (talk) 13:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

United States Confederations Cup templates

Should Template:United States squad 2009 FIFA Confederations Cup be deleted? Since Template:United States Squad 2009 FIFA Confederations Cup was created a day earlier. Go here to discuss.

Quick question

Robin van der Laan. Does anyone know whether I am supposed to write: "Van der Laan..." or "van der Laan..." when starting a sentence with his name? Do I just write "Laan...".

Help pl0x.--EchetusXe (talk) 18:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Robin van der Laan, Van der Laan, sorted Laan, Robin van der. --necronudist (talk) 18:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

And even when his surname comes up in the middle of a sentence, it should still be capitalised as "Van der Laan". – PeeJay 18:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

k, thnx.--EchetusXe (talk) 18:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

In the middle of a sentence it's not capitalised, except when it's someone from Belgium. Cattivi (talk) 10:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Robin van der Laan is Mr. Van der Laan... it doesn't matter if it's in the middle or at the beginning of a sentence... when the first name is missing, it's always capitalised. But maybe a Dutch can solve this issue better than us... I can be wrong as well. --necronudist (talk) 10:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That's the idea I've been working to on Ruud van Nistelrooy. Was pretty sure that was the case anyway. – PeeJay 10:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The 'v' in surnames starting with van is usually capitalized when not preceded by the corresponding first name. My Dutch is kind of horrible, even if I live in the Netherlands, but I'm pretty sure about this. Also a quick Google News seems to confirm it: [4]. --Angelo (talk) 10:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The same happens with brazilian or portuguese surnames. Exemple: Álvaro dos Santos. The "D" in "dos" is small d. Or in spanish. Exemple: Nestor de los Santos Perez. I have a friend with a combination of both (Dutch and portuguese). Her name is : Patrícia von Zeller de Almeida. FkpCascais (talk) 12:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Only a note: von Zeller is German, not Dutch :) --Angelo (talk) 13:08, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm...she clearly said dutch, but now I see what happend, her name is vAn Zeller...sorry, my mistake. FkpCascais (talk) 15:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Trimi Makolli

Does article Trimi Makolli meet the requirement for WP:CSD acording to A7?

The player is not part of the senior squad, hes youth squad player, have not played any matches for the club more then a few friendly in the 2009 pre-season. --> Halmstad, Charla to moi 18:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

No, on the basis the article asserts notability by saying he plays for Djurgardens. I was going to say prod it, but I see someone already has, and the prod has been removed. It'll have to go to AfD now, if anyone can be bothered... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I've taken it to AfD, the debate can be found at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trimi Makolli. Cheers. GiantSnowman 11:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Someone has added a source confirming a league appearance, I have withdrawn the nom. GiantSnowman 16:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Was constructive though, if it encouraged people to add sources. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh definitely...it's a shame that some people require the threat of deletion before they improve an article though...GiantSnowman 17:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, there's a limit to how many articles one can improve in any given time, the threat of deletion just raises a particular one up the list of priorities. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. We could definitely use more help with the backlog of unreferenced footballer BLPs: Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Unreferenced BLPs. Jogurney (talk) 18:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe trying to improve articles rather than just trying to delete them without even doing a very simple google search would be a way forward? I'm new to this, but seems obvious to even me8lgm (talk) 09:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Michael Husbands

Could somebody keep an eye on the Michael Husbands article? I don't know anything about him, but there have been a lot of suspicious edits recently, I'm not sure if the edits are correct or not (other than the unsourced speculation), so if my reverts are wrong, then please revert me, otherwise, it needs to be watched. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll do it.--EchetusXe (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it was Husbands himself? Trying to rewind time back to 2005 when he had a future in the game but was still a totally shit player? (hope he never reads this). Its probably the same nutjob he claimed he could leap like a salmon.--EchetusXe (talk) 20:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I've been keeping an eye on it for a while. Every now and again it gets a few random edits to the stats in the infobox. --Jimbo^[online] 11:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

• Now at ANI --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

"(i have erased false information about michael husbands)". I can't understand this, all of the information in the article is fully supported by articles from the BBC. Seems as though this individual wants to believe that Husbands never left Vale Park for some reason.--EchetusXe (talk) 13:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Question about "Football in..." templates

As you can see, DragoLink08 has changed a couple of "Football in <country>" templates to a "more colorful" layout, similar to those of the national team templates. Revert or not revert? --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 10:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd say revert. Let's try to be a bit consistent about choice of colours, btw they do not even look that great... --Angelo (talk) 11:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

revert. Rettetast (talk) 14:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

And not just football, either. He was given a final warning yesterday and made another hundred of the same edits today; ping an admin. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:46, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No need for admin intervention yet. I have alerted him about the discussion. WP:BRD. Rettetast (talk) 16:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Why do we use different colours anyway. Wouldn't it be better to use the standard template colour on all footy templates? Are there any gain other than the bleeding eyesore at the bottom on thousands of articles? Rettetast (talk) 16:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Ukraine national football team 1992

Is this the sort of article that we should have on Wikipedia? Isn't this just too much in terms of unnecessary data. I could understand listing all of the national team's results, broken down by decade, but appearance/goals info for each player?! – PeeJay 18:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, there's also this one. – PeeJay 18:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Any relevant info should be merged into the 'History' section of the national team article, and then these two articles should be deleted. GiantSnowman 18:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I also forgot to mention that there are Ukraine season articles up to 1996 too. – PeeJay 19:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

My original suggestion remains :P GiantSnowman 20:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

We've got whole categories of season articles for clubs (Example: Category:Football (soccer) clubs 2009-10 season), why can't there be a season article for a national team? Surely they are just as noteworthy! EA210269 (talk) 03:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Flags of principalities

In the Swansea City vs AS Monaco tie in European Cup Winners' Cup 1991–92, Swansea has the Welsh flag whereas Monaco has the French flag (not the Monaco flag). Is this an inconsistency and which should be changed, if either? --Jameboy (talk) 22:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I think both are presently correct. Swansea qualified via winning the Welsh Cup, while Monaco qualified via winning the Coupe de France Final 1991. Where you might have fun & games is if Swansea or Cardiff qualified via the predominantly English competitions. ;-) Jmorrison230582 (talk) 06:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

That would really be a question, what flag to put! Cardiff could have gained promotion to Premier League this season... FkpCascais (talk) 07:17, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Swansea are registered with the FAW, and are therefore a Welsh club: Monaco are registered with the FFF, and so are a French club. Kevin McE (talk) 08:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

If they qualify through a English tournament to represent The Football Association in Europe they'd have to have a English flag. chandler 08:38, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Cardiff and Swansea aren't actually eligible to qualify for European competitions via the English league or domestic cups. That was the problem with Cardiff potentially entering the UEFA Cup if they won the 2008 FA Cup Final. Anyway, Swansea and Monaco currently have the correct flags. – PeeJay 11:41, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

List of foreign players in Serbian lower football leagues

Is this article worth it? Seeing as it is a list of lower-league players, I reckon the vast majority will fail notability, meaning we have what is basically a list of non-notable footballers...GiantSnowman 00:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I don´t understand you. You want to make an article about a club, Hungaria FbC Roma, that is not even an official club, made only a couple of exibitional matches, and had 2 known players(you´ve asked help to find more players,remember?)... and you´re criticizing a list with 72 capped international players !?!?...never mind. The list I made it becouse I had that information and becouse is complementary to the 1st league list. This way you can follow the career of many players with the help of both lists. But anyway, I don´t mind if people think that is unworthy... I am just surprised that this came from you, I even try to get more info about the Hungaria team you wanted to do the article, to help you... Are you mad becouse of something? FkpCascais (talk) 06:00, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Haha, it's nothing personal FkpCascais! I really appreciate the help with Hungaria, and I was merely asking if other editors thought this article was worthy of being on Wikipedia - calm down! Regards, GiantSnowman 12:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation

There exists Joe Smith (footballer born 1889), England international, maker of 612 Football League appearances and scorer of 380 goals, with a long managerial career, already dabbed by birth year because of Joe Smith (footballer born 1890), England international and maker of 482 Football League appearances, but clearly the primary target for people looking up Joe Smiths born in 1889. Does anyone have any sensible suggestions as to what I should I name an article on a rather less prominent Joe Smith, English footballer born 1889, who played 8 league games before being killed in action in the First World War? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Can I suggest Joseph Enoch Smith i.e. his full name? or Joseph Smith (footballer)? --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 10:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you have their months of birth available? If so, why not use those in conjunction with the year? – PeeJay 11:40, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

For Joseph Enoch, if such was his name, Joyce might say so but I'm not convinced, there's only the year. I think I'll call him Joseph Smith (footballer). Thanks for your ideas. Whatever he gets called, once there are three of them I'll have to make a dab page at Joe Smith (footballer), which is currently a redirect to Joe Smith (footballer born 1889). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive editor

A. Falcao (talk · contribs) insists on removing club categories from the articles of youth players, even though I have directed him to previous consenus that such categories should be kept. I am about to approach my 3RR limit, please could someone else have a polite word with him? Cheers, GiantSnowman 13:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Why not make a Category:AFC Ajax youth players? A. Falcao (talk) 13:56, 13 June 2009 (UTC)