Talk:Tamaskan Dog

Date of Origin?

Hi Exhaustfumes,

I see that you have changed the year of initial Tamaskan breeding back to "in the begining" instead of 2005. It was myself who edited this part of the page to read 2005 after research into the breed through the links provided on the wiki page.

Please provide some information about the date of initial matings so that the information on the wiki page can be corrected.

Best regards, Onefivenine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onefivenine (talk • contribs) 17:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure where you got your information from, could you provide a link that works? The only referance I can find to 2005 is the first Tamaskan imported into America. Exhaustfumes

Hi Exhaustfumes,

I've just checked the link to Blustag above, it seems to be working fine. It goes straight to the history page with the information about the origins of the breed. Below is the info from the page in its entirety. The text in bold I have added to highlight the sections that I founded my opinions on.

"The first dogs to start the ball rolling which led to the Tamaskan Dogs of today came over from America in the 80’s. These 5 dogs were imported into UK and described as husky type dogs – origins unknown.

These dogs were then bred to Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and German Shepherd crosses – origins unknown, with the idea in mind of creating a dog that resembled the wolf but with a good temperament thus being suitable as a family dog foremost with working ability.

In the early days with selective breeding by a couple of people these dogs were mated to perhaps pure Siberian Huskies or first generation crossbreeds. A couple of German Shepherds were also used and Alaskan Malamute but after that they were selectively bred to each other over a few years trying to create this wolf look-a-like (up until this time no one is 100% certain of the breeding programmes as no records were made available) . Eventually given the name wolf-dog, but in approx 1988 changed to Northern Inuit (NI) as there was no wolf content and this name was misleading. A Northern Inuit Society was then formed."

So far this is the history of the Northern Inuit, one of the founding breeds used to create the Tamaskan

"However, some time later there were differences of opinions now the breed was developing and this led to a split and a new Society starting up. With two NI Societies and the breed going in two directions one Society decided to change the name of the breed to the Utonagan to disassociate itself with the NI. A Utonagan Society was then formed. The new Utonagan were by now starting to look quite different to the NI (who to this day are still running their own Society) but still not looking wolf-like enough, although temperaments of all of these dogs were exemplary. After a short while there was yet again another split due to differences of opinions and again a new Society was born called The British & International Utonagan Society headed by the then President of the original Utonagan Society along with some of their members.

The original Utonagan Society then ceased to exist until some time much later when it was resurrected by a new committee.

Meanwhile The British & International Utonagan Society continued to selectively breed and improve type, keeping all records of mating’s, health issues etc and started a hip scoring and eye testing scheme, setting rules and regulations, a code of ethics and providing breeder’s contracts. Eventually these dogs started to look different to the dogs being bred by The (original) Utonagan Society."

The above section relates to Utonagans

"Sadly the original breeder’s had kept inaccurate records in the breeds beginnings, mating’s had taken place of closely related dogs resulting in some health issues creeping into the breed. This was not discovered until much later. What was now needed was a new injection of healthy unrelated bloodlines meaning that they had to look elsewhere for new dogs with the look and working ability that was needed, not forgetting temperament which they certainly did not want to loose.

"It was at this point in time in 2005 that the search for other wolfy looking dogs with similar ancestry led to Lapland where dogs of a very similar appearance were being bred for sled pulling in extreme temperatures. These dogs close ancestors were also some of the best sled racing dogs in the world and would enhance the breed’s future working ability.

After some negotiations with the kennel owner a female was purchased and imported into UK in early 2005 with a further six dogs booked for early 2006 from the same kennels.

The two sections above are as far as I can make out the start of the Tamaskan dog as a breed independent from the founding breeds.

"With a collection of new bloodlines now organised it was time to think about the future. It was then decided by the committee members of the British & International Society after much debate to close down the Society as the old (original) Utonagan Society had just been resurrected with a new committee who did not wish to follow the standards of The British and International Utonagan Society or to include new bloodlines in their breeding program. Therefore it seemed obvious that the present Utonagan would soon not resemble the ‘new’ dogs whatsoever and they would need a new name. It was in 2005 that the original female imported from Finland was then taken back to Finland along with 7 selected dogs from the Blustag Kennels of UK.

The reserved six dogs were then collected from Lapland, out of these; two were exported to UK in early 2006, an adult male and female from different litters.

It was very early in 2006 after The British and International Utonagan Society closed down that The Tamaskan Dog Register was formed. Tamaska means ‘Mighty Wolf’ in North American Indian language The Tamaskan Register is the governing body now for all Tamaskan dogs throughout the world and was formed by the original committee members of The British and International Utonagan Society. Since forming in early 2006 there is now a Tamaskan Dog Society of Great Britain and a National Tamaskan Club of America along with The Tamaskan Register based in Finland.

Tamaskan have been exported from Finland throughout 2006 to Holland, UK, Sweden and USA and have also been exported from UK to USA. Early 2007 saw four more (from different litters) being sent overseas to USA.

The Tamaskan has a very bright future and must NOT be confused with the Utonagan whose standard is somewhat different. The main differences being the depth of stop, shape of head, length of coat and the Utonagan’s acceptance of a wide range of colours and markings. With many other small differences the Tamaskan is in all a different breed which anyone can see by comparing pictures from the Tamaskan Gallery with those found on The Utonagan Society Gallery." Onefivenine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onefivenine (talk • contribs) 19:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but I have tried from two seperate computers to view the 'link' you have provided and it just does not exist. To stop any further arguments about this I will remove any reference to the date whatsoever. Exhaustfumes —Preceding comment was added at 11:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Exhaustfumes,

The web page containing the above information has now been removed but I can confirm that the page was there untill the 9th of January 2008 and have the screen shots to prove it. It appears as though the Blustag Kennel was one of the founding kennels of the breed and as such their information should be accurate. I do not understand what the problem is with date this breed was created, be it 3 years or 30!

Do you have any contradictory evidence for the date of origin of this breed?

Regards

Onefivenine--Onefivenine (talk) 12:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Exhaustfumes,

The same information relating to the origin of the Tamaskan dog is available through the following link doublejkennels and was easy to find via a google search.

I will change the Wiki page back as this information seams to be accurate and verifiable.

Onefivenine--Onefivenine (talk) 12:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Personally I believe that information should be taken from club websites and reliable sources rather than breeders websites but I will leave it for discussion.

Exhaustfumes —Preceding comment was added at 12:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I have emailed the TDR who have informed me that the dates can be argued, but the oldest recorded 1st generation Tamaskan was born in 2002 although the breed register (and clubs) weren't formed until later.

Exhaustfumes 1:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

By adding the 2002 it is out of context so that would be wrong. Which is why I had left it without an exact date so as not to confuse people. But if you insist on having a date of origin I suppose we must leave it as 2002, although I don't believe we need to mention the date of origin at all as it is clearly arguable. Exhaustfumes 3:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The breeds used in the Tamaskan Explained

Hi Exhaustfumes,

I think the page looks great. I've been adding internal links but could not find any information on Finnish racing huskies, if you have any information could you start a wiki page as I can't find any info anywhere about these dogs.

Cheers

Onefivenine--Onefivenine (talk) 18:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Finnish racing huskies are not a breed in themselves, they are basically Alaskan huskies and are not registered, a mix of husky and other fast breeds designed to create the ultimate sled racing dog. Perhaps a better way of saying it would be Finnish Arctic Huskies?

Exhaustfumes 7:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh right, a bit like a Eurohound. I've heard of Arctic Huskies but just assumed that they where also a little known breed.

Do you have any info about the actual dogs used, like what sort of mix they where, or any pics?--Onefivenine (talk) 21:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I do, but I don't think I should complicate the article by adding stuff like that, its quite lengthy now as it is.

Exhaustfumes 11:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean for you to add that info to this page, but thought that perhaps you could start a Finnish racing huskies page as no one else has contributed any information about these dogs. If these dogs are of the same make up as the Eurohound then we could just add an internal link to that page.--Onefivenine (talk) 00:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well no, there is no finnish racing husky as a breed. They are basically Alaskan Huskies that are from Finland. The dogs used to create the Tamaskan in Finland were either pure FCI registered Siberian huskies or a husky cross from finland designed for racing (finnish racing huskies for want of a better way of putting it). --Exhaustfumes (talk) 11:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Validity

This article was deleted, with an overwhelming majority of people deciding to delete it rather than keep it. Many state that it's an elaborate hoax; there is no Tamaskan breed; is there new evidence to warrent recreating this article? If not, I might suggest it be deleted again (as much as I'd like for there to actually be Tamaskan dogs, since I love wolves). Has anything changed since this articles deletion? 207.12.38.107 (talk) 13:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and it might be a good idea to dredge up the old deleted article (if possible), look at what was written on it, and incorporate that info into this new article. And guys, if I don't get a response in a reasonable time, I might contact a mod to put this article back up for voting. 207.12.38.107 (talk) 14:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This article was deleted last time purely because of a lack of published sources, since its first deletion on wikipedia the Tamaskan has appeared in local newpapers and national magazines therefore following the requests of Wikipedia members for reinstatement in the encyclopedia. This is a real breed to suggest it is a hoax is ridiculous. (Exhaustfumes) 17:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.208.176.114 (talk)

I think the article should be left up--Ltshears (talk) 00:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Lifespan

The average life span is an estimate taking into account the average lifespan of the breeds used to make up the Tamaskans, all of which are about 14 - 15 years of age. We have so far had no Tamaskan die of old age, the oldest pure bred 1st generation Tamaskan is 7 years old. When we have more data we will obviously update this average if it needs to be done.--Exhaustfumes (talk) 19:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Tamaskan Dog Club of Australia

This is the link to the Tamaskan Dog Register Notice Board which states 'coming soon The Tamaskan Dog Club of Australia' http://www.tamaskan-dog.com/Notice%20Board/notice-board.htm This is a link to a list of breeders on the Tamaskan Dog Society of Great Britain website which lists a Australian breeders http://www.tamaskan-dog.co.uk/Kennel%20Names/names.htm This is a link to the forum where the Secretary of the Tamaskan Dog Register states the 'coming' of the Tamaskan Dog Club of Australia. I can also supply the contact details of the lady who is starting up this club so please stop vandalising this article --Exhaustfumes (talk) 17:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC) http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/viewtopic.php?t=30&mforum=tdsgbforum

wolf resemblance/appearence rather than "morphology"

I think that unless there are real comparative studies of this and other candidate breeds asserting that it has the most wolf-like morphology, the article would be more correct in stating that it's one of the dog breeds which resemble a wolf the most, without having recent wolf ancestry. Otherwise it's original research/unsupported claim. As far as I know, despite of the superficial looks, could be that another dog breed is actually more morphologically similar to the wolves, and yet, it could be as different in superficial appearance as the chow chow. As an analogy with more distant groups, think of ostriches and dinosaurs like ornithomimus and the like, and even crocodilians like effigia. They're all ostrich-like in their superficial looks, but morphologically they're in fact more similar to other theropod dinosaurs and crocodiles, respectively. --Extremophile (talk) 15:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

can a have blue eyes?

just wondering if its possible for a Tamaskan Dog to have blue eyes —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob1191811 (talk • contribs) 04:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

No Tamaskan have blue eyes and if one ever should then it would be a serious fault --Exhaustfumes (talk) 08:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Tamaskan Club of America

Tamaskan Club of America This Club is run by one kennel (despite a 'fake' link for another breeder, blustag, which is actually the kennel name of the founder of the real Tamaskan Dog), he is a commercial breeding kennels who breeds Tamaskan cross breeds and sells them for more than pure bred Tamaskan are worth. He has been vandalising wikipedia under a few different names and trying to add a link to his fake club, which he has been accepting membership monies for. Please do not be fooled, this is not a legitimate club, nor are his dogs pure bred Tamaskan. According to his own website these dogs have timber wolf content and are a mix of different breeds to create what he calls Tamaskan wolfdogs. This breeder and this club have nothing to do with the real Tamaskan dog and links to this kennel or club should not be allowed to be included in the Tamaskan dog article. --Exhaustfumes (talk) 14:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

No-Wolf-Tamaskan-Fable Website

This website is a hoax / rumor spreading website designed to encourage people away from the Tamaskan and towards a new similar breed of dog being bred by the creator of this No-Wolf-Tamaskan-Fable-Website. The response from the Tamaskan Dog Register can be seen here [1] --Exhaustfumes (talk) 15:58, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality Dispute

Many of the editors to this article are self-confessed dog breeders, several of whom breed Tamaskan dogs or variations thereof. None of the sources could be considered wholly reliable - they comprise the 'official' words of the registering body and an online blog about dogs. Additionally the 'sources' provided do not back up much of the information in this article. Recently much information was deleted from the article and has been reintroduced in bad faith without sources, making the entire article seem like an advertisement for whichever dog breeder is editing it this week. Also considering that the 'official registering body' is entirely self proclaimed and without authority it follows that this entire article is in dispute. There has been no evidence provided that the Tamaskan is a noteworthy breed, and some dispute about whether it even exists in the way mentioned here. In the future all comments in the article should be attributable to reliable third party sources or they will be removed. Weakopedia (talk) 07:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, this article has a real problem as almost all the contributors have conflicts of interest and appear to be bringing a dispute between various vested interests into Wikipedia. Entirely neutral sources are thin on the ground. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I think severe vandalism has meant enthusiasts of the breed have been fighting to keep this article correct. Rumours from a rival dog breed suggesting the Tamaskan has wolf content have led to this vandalism. This breed may only be 9 years old, but it is a noteworthy breed. Every dog since the very beginning has been DNA profiled and now has its own profile as a seperate breed. They are also counted as a seperate breed with the BVA and several insurance companies. They have been mentioned in several magazines and newspapers.

I think the article should perhaps be reverted to the way it was before all the vandalism started Blufawn (talk) 00:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.248.96 (talk)

The problem is that there have been so many bouts of revision that there can't really be said to be a neutral version we can go back to. If there are more independant sources that you can cite then please do so as it would allow us to attribute the claims in the article to these reliable independant secondary sources. What we have right now is the self published opinion of the self appointed breeding society, and another self-published piece about dogs. The TDRs opinions may be perfectly valid, the problem is that they are the primary source and we just don't have many secondary sources to back them up. If you can help with specific references that would help get us to where we could remove the neutrality tag. Weakopedia (talk) 15:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The TDR is not the only society who are involved with this breed.

Euro Tamaskan, the Tamaskan Dog Society of Great Britain, the National Tamaskan Club of America and also a dutch club but not sure what its called support the TDR. These Clubs as well as smallers ones such as Tamaskan Rescue UK, Tamaskan Dog Showing Club and the Tamaskan Health Database and all the breeders all recognise the TDR as the official registering body. The founders of the breed still sit on the committee of the TDR and it is supported by everyone involved with the Tamaskan Dog, I think that is enough to make it official. --Exhaustfumes (talk) 13:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

No. Officialdom is not bestowed upon an organisation simply because many of it's members are in agreement. You say that the TDR is not the only society involved with the breed but then go on to mention a set of societies involved ONLY with Tamaskans. Considering how few Tamaskans there are in reality this means that each of those societies must have quite a limited membership. Let us imagine that I buy a Tamaskan dog which is 'certified' by the TDR. I then make my own internet page and tell the TDR I have formed a society. All I have done is perpetuate the TDR. This isn't a case of established societies working with the TDR or with Tamaskans, it is just the TDR branching out. Therefore all statements from all these societies can be seen to be an extension of the TDRs own opinions.

The fact is that there is an international society for the maintainance of all dog breeds and the TDR is not a member. This means that all the comments from all the societies you mentioned are self generated and unregulated. Even if EVERY Tamaskan owner were to say that the TDR is the official body does not make any kind of new reality - there are far too few of them to make that so. However, as this articles history can show, not every Tamaskan breeder or owner is in agreement. It is also seen on the TDR site that they are at the moment uninterested in pursuing official recognition. This all means that the TDR are a self declared authority which maintains that authority only through the opinions of it's members.

Because of this the TDRs comments cannot be taken to be fact and are not considered reliable secondary sources. The breeders who are affiliated with the TDR are also not reliable secondary sources. This is the essence of the difficulty with the article. The TDR created the breed, as you have said, and are the principle advocators of the breed. Their opinions may be valid but it still requires reliable secondary sources to validate them. Weakopedia (talk) 11:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Surely the same thing can be said of other organisations. What makes the Kennel Club the official authority? It was started by a small group of people, all the clubs must be affiliated with them and breeders must be registered with them.

They are a money making organisation run by a committee. What is the differance between the Kennel Club and The Tamaskan Dog Register other than size, age and popularity? What exactly would make the TDR official if they are too young to be accepted by the KC? OR are they not allowed to have a group officially represent them until they are recognised? That seems a bit unfair to me.--Exhaustfumes (talk) 10:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

You have already answered your question... The difference between the KC and the TDR is size, age and popularity - in a word, notability. We can show it has a long history and has been accepted across the world as the official dog registering body of all official dog breeds and is accepted not only by members but even governments. The TDRs role is disputed for not belonging to the official recognition body for dogs, it is also disputed amongst Tamaskan owners and breeders as is evidenced by the contributions to this article.

However remember that the KC is also not necessarily a reliable source for statements about itself. Verifiability and notability comes from the KC and it's actions being discussed in reliable secondary sources. There are millions of sources that verify everything to do with the KC yet only a handful which verify either TDR or Tamaskan. This does not mean that the TDR or the Tamaskan cannot be reliable confirmed but it is still necessary to confirm it - it's just that it is far easier with the KC as they are officially recognised and historical with a history of sources to match.

The neutrality tag is appropriate as there are many statements in this article which can only be sourced to the TDR, statements about behaviour and suitability which without a reliable secondary source are unverifiable. I haven't deleted or modified anything in the article yet, and I am trying also to find useful sources, but ultimately all statements must be sourced, whether the article is KC or TDR or anything else. Weakopedia (talk) 07:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed Solution

Disputes over the content of this article continue. To a neutral third party (i.e. myself) it would appear that no guaranteed way of determining which of the involved organisations is the true 'authority' on this breed (if it is a breed at all). It would also appear that there is no citable recognition of any of those involved from any authoritative third-party organisation. So we are at an impasse and the reader has no way of determining who is right, who is wrong and who is merely using Wikipedia to promote their commercial interests.

So. Can I suggest that as a way forward, and as a way of minimizing any possible conflict of interest, we removed all references and links to all these organisations. That way there is no question of anyone promoting their organisation, and perhaps we will just have the input of those editors who only have a genuine interest in improving the article.

I realise that this may result in a loss of information, as some of the cited material is coming from one or other organisation's website. But we may at least then be making a clean start, based on undisputed facts that have consensus.

Otherwise I can see only two other options;

• attempt to create an article that spends more time neutrally documenting the disputes rather than discussing the dog itself.
• leave the article as is, as a on-going battlefield.

Both these other options could end up in the article being locked-down (to the dissatisfaction of all involved), or even nominated for deletion on the basis that the article is about a dispute of no notability between breeders, or that there there is no reliably sourced information that such a breed even exists.

Thoughts? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

A good starting point might be to request semi-protection for the page as most of the vandalism and unsourced additions come from single purpose accounts and IP addresses. That way the article space would be less of a battleground and give us space to try sourcing some of the claims. Weakopedia (talk) 20:58, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The issue here is a content dispute, it is not vandalism. Disputed edits are not necessarily vandalism. You are unlikely to get semi-protect approved without either constant vandalism (of which there is no recent examples) or an ongoing edit war, and at that point you have no say on [[what version of the article will be protected. And as the dispute involves autoconfirmed editors, the only possible protection given would be full protection, which benefits no-one. See guidelines on this here. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The issue here is not exactly a content dispute, that would imply that someone had sourced content that gave a different opinion that that which the article presents, however the additions of the newly registered IPs has been unreferenced and consisted mostly of obvious vandalism. Just this last month there have been seven SPAs come along to add unsourced content, add opinion, blank the page and do various other things.

Here are the last seven SPAs contributions.

Note that all of these were last month, so whether or not the level of vandalism constitutes the necessity for semiprotection the fact is that those who wish to add unreferenced content have changed tactics and are not using registered accounts anymore but exclusively SPA IP addresses.

As to the article, well you are not the only unconnected editor - I've never even owned a dog, horrible smelly things they are, noisy too. The article has been written from a slightly promotional point of view however most of the stuff in the article can be sourced, the Florida Lupine news piece seems reliable enough and it gives more detail that this Wiki article whilst not being so overly promotional. So it is possible to improve the article, but also I think possible to show that the TDR are the official body for Tamaskans. The IPs trying to add unsourced content are all advocating their own versions of Tamaskans, even with their own names, but finding reliable sources for the significance of their claims would be impossible at this stage as none of those breeds have been established in any big way. I guess that's why they haven't tried adding any sources.

The article does have much room for improvement though, if you have identified particular ares you wish to modify then go for it! Weakopedia (talk) 05:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree it is a tricky situation, but the majority of the people making the childish edits to the posts are not actually Tamaskan breeders, they have started up their own breeds called the Aatu Tamaskan and the Tamaskan Wolfdogs because they do not wish to follow the TDR's rules, these breeds are now entirely seperate from the Tamaskan Dog and contain different breeding dogs (and other breeds of dog, including mixing with wolfdogs). If it is they who are altering the content to suit their own needs and sell their own puppies through our good name then surely the real Tamaskan societies should be the ones linked to?

The TDR are the founders of the breed, they started it in the very begining so surely they have the upper hand when it comes to knowledge and being the 'true' authority. The other links go to breeders of Tamaskan Wolfdogs and Aatu Tamaskan, not breeders of real Tamaskan dogs at all, if you look at the fine print. --Exhaustfumes (talk) 12:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

You may be correct in everything you say, but the uninvolved, non-expert reader has no way of knowing which are the "real Tamaskan societies" and which are the "mavericks". Nor do I. This is why a reliable source from a universally recognised authority is what this article needs more than anything. If this could be sourced, and if this mentions a recognised Tamaskan society, then we have the foundations of an article that couldn't be challenged or mucked around. But until then.. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 15:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

The people adding Tamaskan have left a few sources, they may not be the best in the world but the Florida Lupine news, whilst being TDR sourced, is independant of the TDR and seems reasonable enough. In any event what Exhaustfumes says is verifiable, those advocating their own version of events all have their own name for the dogs they produce, like Aatu Tamaskan and Tamaskan Wolfdog, and they use these names to differentiate between their dogs (which do contain wolf blood) and TDR dogs (which don't). Their breeds may one day be deserving of a section in this article, but right now it is hard enough to find sources for the main Tamaskan breed let alone any sub-breeds as it has only been around a few years. With the burden of proof being on the one adding information it is unlikely that additions concerning Aatus and Wolfdogs should be acceptable anytime soon. Weakopedia (talk) 06:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)