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Jean-Baptiste Siméon Chardin, The Illustrator, c.1738, leave me your message and I'll get back to you, when I return..

Goya

FYI [1] Ceoil (talk) 21:20, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

We've been fighting that fight for years now, and it still goes on, one of the greatest painting of the 20th century that has to be in those articles...Modernist (talk) 21:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I know. Ceoil (talk) 21:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

We need to deepen the text at the 3rd of May for the use of the painting - and if we can add text I will rewrite the Fair Use claim and hopefully that will be ok...Modernist (talk) 21:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking exactly that, but dont have any Goya stuff to hand, all back in the attic. But yeah, I would be up for that within a week or so. In other news, tune to ease the misery of it all - strange, witty and beautiful, [2]. Take care. Ceoil (talk) 21:41, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

That was nice, I opened a beer, whatta gaze...Modernist (talk) 21:49, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I suppose a return link would be out of the question. Ceoil (talk) 23:13, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Re. The Third of May: I can't see that Guernica and Massacre in Korea are necessary or justified, and the latter so obviously refers to Goya, that it is the obvious choice. Text concerning Guernica would be ample. Maybe there is another work by a different artist that could be used, though nothing occurs immediately. The last two paragraphs here could add to the legacy section... Ty 00:22, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

What a great find Ty, I don't know how you do it, amazing. The Massacre in Korea is definitely the direct descendant of the Third of May although as the text states Guernica was probably directly influenced by Goya and it's Picasso's masterpiece. I think the text you found should be added as a reference, and I'll look for another image. But I think especially with this text Guernica can be used as a demonstration of the power of Goya's legacy. This quote by Picasso is powerful:

“The Spanish struggle is the fight of reaction against the people, against freedom. My whole life as an artist has been nothing more than a continuous struggle against reaction and the death of art. How could anybody think for a moment that I could be in agreement with reaction and death? … In the panel on which I am working, which I shall call Guernica, and in all my recent works of art, I clearly express my abhorrence of the military caste which has sunk Spain in an ocean of pain and death”. Thanks...Modernist (talk) 00:38, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I have to confess such things are often serendipity as a result of various search term permutations in Google, when the first one doesn't yield the required results or maybe ropes too much into the net. Ty 02:37, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

As much as I would like to re-add Guernica I'll let some time pass, see what develops...Modernist (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

And now for something compleatly different

[3]. Destress time I think, for all of us. Ceoil (talk) 03:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Cheers for the Bertin fixes. Poor old Ingres, I'd say it wasn't much fun being him. Ceoil 18:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Seems like a talented but tight-ass type...Modernist (talk) 18:21, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

The image of Bertin comforting the weeping artist in the studio is lovely. You can see Ingres' sevirity in every brush stroke. Not the sort of man I'd go for a pint with. If he were here with us he'd be trolling AN/I. Ceoil 18:27, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

An admin for sure.... By the way zoom in on the image - what's that next to his left hand - [4] an extra finger?...Modernist (talk) 18:33, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Now thats freaky! Speaking of admins, did you see the business with Malleus last night. Got pushed around, and when he complained, was basically told, you know, your a fairly bad boy yourself, maybe we should take you to arbcom. And off they went fishing for diffs. Similar to TFMWNCB, ie utter utter bullshit, and basic naked bullying. The AN/I post to content ratio is inversly to having been a meak and harassed child and now vengeful adult, I think. Ceoil 18:58, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Re: Bertin's hand: It's his thumb, but granted it's strangely drawn--could have been restored, like so many old master passages. And Ingres was definitely not a party boy--thank God there was him to provide color, in many senses of the word. By the way, great work on the article....I'm tempted to find my books and add to it, in a 'retired consultant' fashion. Cheers for the New Year, JNW (talk) 21:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, although he sure could draw, after some twisting and finger turning I can see it as the thumb; 'retired consultants' are always welcome here, all the best in the new year...Modernist (talk) 22:07, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

He could draw like a sumbitch; the French Wiki claims that the drawing of Charles Thevenin served as a template [5]. There were several preliminary sketches, too. JNW (talk) 23:11, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that's some drawing, near perfection although I like his paintings - I prefer Gericault and Delacroix...Modernist (talk) 00:23, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Such cool restraint doesn't easily inspire a passionate response--he's probably the only painter of such perfectly enameled surfaces that I like, and then only for his portraits. And the drawings that slay me are the figure studies that weren't intended for public view, few or none of which are in the commons. Degas was shrewd to place him with Delacroix and Daumier, who is my favorite of the bunch. But the Bertin is one of the great portraits of its century. JNW (talk) 00:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

And those paintings of the women are just so sexy...Modernist (talk) 02:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I forgot about the odalisques. And there's her [6] Amen. JNW (talk) 02:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Re: then only for his portraits. His history paintings leave me cold, and there is a bitter irony that they didn't age well, and what he though was his serious work and what he though were his journey-man pieces jars with the taste of almost everybody who has lived between now and then and has eyes. But thats all part of the package with him, what I like in the portraits is the restraint, the coolness; its all bubbling beneath the surface with Ingres. Ceoil 12:28, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the history painting heyday was a little before Ingres' generation and he was painting against the current, that produced the Romantics and later Courbet and the Realists - although they didn't see it at the time. I have always admired his drawings though...Modernist (talk) 12:41, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know the drawings, yet, but considering he was so popular at the Salon and given that his painting were against the tide but were met with critics and openion makers who were writing against the tide...I would have though happy days for Ingres. Ceoil 13:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, Ceoil, that there is something going on beneath the surface, an idiosyncratic nature that's long been recognized, and separates him from his ostensible goal to be Raphael. It also distinguishes him from his thousands of 19th century followers, as well as many 'retro' neoclassical figurative painters today. And he painted the doughiest hands in art; there's not a finger that isn't perfectly plump and manicured, and none of his subjects ever so much as washed a dish. Find a book on his drawings. The line quality is utterly refined, the energy endlessly restless. JNW (talk) 14:46, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Well said, I should say that when I was 15 one of my art teachers turned me on to Ingres' drawings and that line quality...Modernist (talk) 21:59, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

You were lucky, as was I. Today I taught a drawing workshop for high school students, lovely kids and some very talented, but I'm quite sure none of them would recognize Ingres or Cezanne. Not their fault, nor their teachers'--it's our culture. Even in an advanced educational curriculum there's little place for such esoterica, by which I mean an inspired study of great artists. JNW (talk) 01:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

How true, and how sad that our culture is so superficial and so dumbed down. When I was 15 I showed my drawings to Arnold Blanch and I think he was a little annoyed at me and he told me to look at Ingres' drawings...Modernist (talk) 02:01, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Amusing diversion

Give this a try and see how you do. My first time, I got 37 (out of 101). Raul654 (talk) 00:14, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Wow, humbling experience - shows me how much memory I am losing as I get older - I got 54 out of 101. That was fun...Modernist (talk) 03:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Question

In major gallerys can you just walk in and start taking photographs, or do I need a heavy raincoat to conceal what I'm up to. Its a big no no in Irish and Dutch galleries I've been to not so much in Germany; wondering about London (next month) and NY or LA (December). Ceoil 22:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I think its allright. I have pictures of me and my kids at the Metropolitan Museum of Art; someone sent me a picture of the lobby of the Museum of Modern Art, and nowadays everyone has a camera I think its generally ok. I hope we see you in NYC, btw...Modernist (talk) 22:51, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Whats the worst that can happen, eh ;). I have a friend who moved to LA during the year, and owe him a visit. But I'm not really keen on visiting LA, and really like NY and he's never been, and well, we might meet there. But its dependant on a lot of things. If it happens I will for sure look you up. Ceoil 22:57, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Bty, I'll push The Magdalen Reading for FAC late feb / eraly march, once I get a copy of Lorne Campbell big book when I visit London. Any interest? Your help would be very much appreciated. Ceoil 23:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Modernist: Met and MOMA....very nice. If I had those credits I'd be insufferable....er, more insufferable. Ceoil, keep me in the loop re: your travels. Could meet both of you in NY or at the Yale Gallery of Art. JNW (talk) 16:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Fine, would be good. M: seriously impressive credentials, very proud for you. And by the way JNW, as insufferable goes, your doing just fine. I have a friend who was in London, and never shuts up the fuck about it. So it goes, some people are nice, some not. Ceoil 00:15, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for taking the time to review the Maya stelae FA nom. Much appreciated, best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 13:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations! Simon...Modernist (talk) 13:21, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Oppenheim Obit

Artnet to this writer is the cnn of the artworld it is a reliable and accredited newsource. Wether or not somebody as controversial as Charlie (Mr. Finch) penned the piece is sort of superflous. I have it from personal sources that he is dead and it was conffirmed by whitebox -sure we could wait for Roberta's piece to come out but I think it is established. Masterknighted (talk) 00:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I personally am waiting for Roberta's obit, I don't trust the Finch column...Modernist (talk) 00:31, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The Last Supper

I appreciate your help on the List of works by Vincent van Gogh page. I also wanted your advice regarding the Pop culture section on The Last Supper page. I think it should be removed entirely, and there doesn't seem to be much discussion supporting its existence. I did move one artistic reference over to the Modern Art section of the page, but the rest seem to be one-off television references which really have nothing to do with the painting itself. Would I be overstepping my bounds by removing it entirely?--Chimino (talk) 13:42, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I recommend removing the whole section. There are only 2 references in the entire section - and they do not add to the article or to the painting...Modernist (talk) 13:46, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Will do, thanks.--Chimino (talk) 14:31, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Hemingway question

Hi Modernist - you're my go-to guy for Hemingway because you're one of the few people around here who really appreciates his work. I've been thinking about working on one of the book articles in anticipation of the 50 year anniversary of his death date this summer. I need to get started now if I'm to do a good job, but can't decide which one to work on. I'm leaning toward The Sun Also Rises - my favorite - or For Whom the Bell Tolls, but I suppose a good argument could be made to do The Old Man and the Sea - my least favorite. So, I need an opinion from another editor - and that would be you. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:29, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

BTW - thought I'd let you know that I'm well into The Sun Also Rises, but would appreciate it if you watch over my shoulder. Too many sources, too much going on in one short seemingly simple book, too hard to piece it all together. I've lost a little confidence since writing Pound. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll do my best...Modernist (talk) 22:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

If you know the book then any help is better than none. Entire sections haven't been done yet, and I'm trying to rework the themes section so it flows better. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 23:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I read it in 1963 and I'll try to get a copy this week...Modernist (talk) 23:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

To be totally honest, I haven't read it since college. That was a while ago, but it stuck. I thought I'd get through the criticism & then reread the book & rewrite the plot last. This is the problem with lit articles - you have to read the book at some point .... Truthkeeper88 (talk) 23:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It's a memorable read and my memory is pretty good but '63 was a longtime ago. I'll pick up a copy at Borders - they are discounting everything these days :)...Modernist (talk) 23:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

They're going out of business - but don't get me started on how big box stores have ruined the publishing industry. I'd like to see some of the independent bookstores make their way back again. Was recently in Boston (where I once lived) and shocked that all my favorite bookstores were gone. Anyway, a digression on bookstores. I'm mostly editing weekends these days, so you'll probably have the book read before I get to it. I still have a lot of criticism to get through. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Result of your complaint at the edit-warring noticeboard

See WP:AN3#User:Salmon1 reported by User:Modernist (Result: Article protected, editors warned). Please make an effort to avoid any further disputes with Salmon1. I believe that you know some experienced editors who work on art topics (such as Ceoil, JNW or Tyrenius). Try to discuss with one of them before reverting Salmon1 in the future. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 17:33, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Ed, its being looked after and I've offered to mediate on Salmon's talk. I'm obviously biased as a friend of Modernist, but this needs to be worked through, imo the only solution being disengagement on whatever terms are agreed. I have a selfish interest in that I work very closely with him (we have around 6 FAs together), and am afraid that he might leave over this. I'll bind him to terms if it suits me, no worries. Ceoil 17:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Nicolas Carone

In what was then surely one of the most awkward possible meetings in art world history, in the early 80s I visited Mr. Carone in his Manhattan studio; he looked at my work and tried to explain the value of abstraction underlying realism, sharing anecdotes of his observations of Pollock. I do believe I'd be more appreciative now, but I was young and exceedingly defensive.... now I see that he's referred to as a figurative painter, but his figuration seemed so completely foreign to what I considered representational art. Anyway, just dropped in to say hello, and voice my respect for you. Best, JNW (talk) 00:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Appreciate the visit, ironically I was talking with a friend earlier today about Nicolas Carone and he was talking about his 'heads' (the paintings not the sculpture), which I am not familiar with, interesting though. I think of him as an AE guy. I last saw him and spoke with him in 2005...Modernist (talk) 01:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Galacidalacidesoxyribonucleicacid

New article created by me. Best. Title. Ever :) (I saw it in person at the Dali Museum in Tampa and I've been meaning to write this one for a while) Raul654 (talk) 06:15, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

That's a brain challenge! good job...Modernist (talk) 12:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Theo van Doesburg footnotes

Wow, fast work. Thanks. Yakushima (talk) 10:31, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I see that you have made even better improvements; well done...Modernist (talk) 12:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Departure

I noticed with some disappointment that you left WikiProject Public art. I would be happy to discuss with you any particular issues you had with the project. Your edits to public art articles are important. Thanks --RichardMcCoy (talk) 23:28, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I am not interested at the moment, thank you for your note...Modernist (talk) 23:30, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

History of painting

I'll have to give the Islamic section a going over at some point. Then the Indian. Islamic art is the subject of the moment, as our coverage is so poor. That article's getting awfully big, isn't it? Johnbod (talk) 04:39, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate all the help that you can bring there. It is pretty big to say the least...Modernist (talk) 04:41, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Vincent van Gogh

Hello, I notice you reverted my addition of the van Gogh painting to the piece. Have you actually seen that painting in person? The version I uploaded from the Yale Art Gallery contains colors that are more faithful to the original, which is in its collection. Regards, MarmadukePercy (talk) 00:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I have, my take is your version is a bit too dark, the other version is probably too bright and the painting is somewhere in between...Modernist (talk) 00:36, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

cézanne médal

do you have some explanation for deleting my contribution to Cézanne article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wazzo777 (talk • contribs) 13:41, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Aside from your poor english and your bad spelling, - I didn't delete it - I added it to the legacy section - after I corrected your mistakes. It does not belong in the lead of the article which is about the life and career of Cezanne the painter, the award is somewhat of an afterthought...Modernist (talk) 13:50, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

You speak the truth, i have a side of bad poor english... I apologize for my message and mistakes, i realize after sending, what you did and thank you for that. I'm a new user, neophyte, with a poor quality english but doing something unstead of the opposite. Please be sure of my good will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wazzo777 (talk • contribs) 14:58, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

No problem, do your best :)...Modernist (talk) 15:02, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Breton and Picasso

Your clarification was in order and I thank for that; Breton was, indeed, a Trotskyist and a bitter enemy of Stalin. As you said, this helps to explain his remark to Picasso.

I would make one correction: Breton was a "Trotskyist". From the Wikipedia website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotskyism, "In France, 10% of the electorate voted in 2002 for parties calling themselves Trotskyist" (my emphasis). I don't think the "Trotskyite" spelling occurs anywhere this Wikipedia page: "Trotskyist" is used throughout, and establishes it as the accepted spelling.

The same wiki site says: "Today, in the English language an advocate of Trotsky's ideas is usually called a "Trotskyist" while Trotskyism's opponents usually refer to them pejoratively as a "Trotskyite" or "Trot".[5]" In the same way, one is a "Stalinist", not a "Stalinite" whether one likes or dislikes Stalin.

Advocate or not, let's not use any terms that have a desparaging tone. I know you didn't mean it as such; I used "Trotskyite" myself for many years. Let's use "Trotskyist" if only for the sake of consistency. --Mysweetoldetc. 20:14, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction, I have never heard the term Trotskyist before, I guess I'm never to old to learn a new word :)...Modernist (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

A simple technical question

Dear Modernist -

Excust my ignorance, but I'm having some difficulties with some of the "alternative" citation/reference methods; I'm not finding the info I need at the usual webpages. Who can I ask for remedial information; I'll take a chance asking you.

Here's an example question: How do I use the cit/ref system used at the Emily Dickinson page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Dickinson (if you go there, you'll quickly see that only one method is used at that site)

I can establish say "Wolff p. 55", but how do I link it to the reference (author/title/publisher/page)?

And add to that: what if you have two citations from the same author, but each from a different book - how can you tell which citation goes to which source?

So far the editing methods I've use at other pages are discernable from looking at the edit pages and fooling around with them on sandbox; can't figure this one out. Can you explain it to me?

I would consider it a kindness. --Mysweetoldetc. 18:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mysweetoldetc. (talk • contribs)

Dear mysweetoldetc. - please ask User:Truthkeeper88 I have a lot of stuff to take care of in rl...Modernist (talk) 21:17, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Modernist. You have new messages at Freshacconci's talk page.
Message added 15:38, 12 March 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Lucile Blanch

Thank you for cleaning up the article on Lucile Blanch, I am not an art expert, so it's nice to have someone who knows the ropes for that kind of article. I am actually just writing some articles for the images on the Smithsonians Flicker account for WP:GLAM/SI. Would you be interested in helping research and identify the artists? We could really use some more help in writing articles, and we have plenty of images to work off of. Sign up on the participants list, and make sure that you record what articles you write at Wikipedia:GLAM/SI/Outcomes. Thanks again! Sadads (talk) 12:58, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

You did a good job with the article. I'll check WP:GLAM/SI out...Modernist (talk) 13:02, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I am happy to help out with consultations if I can, let me know if you need my help...Modernist (talk) 13:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure thing. If you through your name down on the list, we can send you updates if we do any drives, Sadads (talk) 13:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Red links

Hi Modernist, I just wanted to check in to see why edits to remove red links in Van Gogh's template were reverted. Is it better to have red links (which I thought meant dead / removed article)? I'm still new here so I might be misunderstanding something. You're help is greatly appreciated!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 05:30, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Carole - sometimes red links are useful - they tell us what articles are needed. In the template I didn't think that they were harmful. However most redlinks can be removed, judgment comes into play. Very good job so far with your image work. Keep up the good work...Modernist (talk) 05:33, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! I've been having fun working on the paintings! Thanks for the compliment. Take care! --CaroleHenson (talk) 05:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I see that you gave Agostina Segatori Sitting in the Café du Tambourin a "start" class. What do you think needs to be done to the article to refine or expand it? Thanks!!! --CaroleHenson (talk) 23:17, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Carole I think that the text needs copyediting and expansion and more can be said about the paintings that Vincent made in Paris. Start is a good indication that the article is well underway. Nice referencing, although I am surprised by the sale of so many of his works, is this documented? I am also troubled by the color of the image - it simply cannot be true to the painting - far to yellow...Modernist (talk) 23:23, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

1) editing: Yes, that makes sense. No matter how well I try to be my own editor, I always seem to miss a couple of things. 2) Paris: I put a lot more about development of van Gogh's style during his time in Paris in the Portrait of Pére Tanguy. While not all would apply, some of it would. And I have a lot of good background material at my home to tap into. I can work on that. 3) yes, the coloring in the picture is not quite what I've seen published. Right now I only know to go to the Wikimedia Commons. 4) Sale of his paintings. Yes, it's very well documented, I could add many more references- the sad side is the paintings were used in exchange of money - for paint and food, not cash. The sale of the bundles of his paintings were a travesty, they sold for much less than the cost of the materials (frames, canvas and paint). It seems the only thing that brought him real payment were his Japanese prints, but at a very low price. He never had money to take to the bank.

Pere Tanguy nomination

Thanks for your help on the painting articles! Pere Tanguy was nominated for DYK and I put a thank you to you in response to the announcement here (if this works) User_talk:CaroleHenson#Portrait_of_P.C3.A9re_Tanguy--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:51, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Good job Carole. Keep doing your best...Modernist (talk) 01:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for following the articles I've been working on. It's always nice to see you've made an appearance. I'm hoping that by starting on the user page (as you found for the van Gogh Roses painting) I can get the articles a little further along, and some additional editing done, etc. before it's posted. But, in any event, I just wanted so say thanks! It's always nice to see what you find - sometimes giving myself an internal "dohhh" (how could I have missed that) to nice surprises in more tightly worded expression. It was nice to see your appearance in "Roses"! --CaroleHenson (talk) 01:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually that was my mistake, I was so enthused by your work that I jumped in there before you were ready. Keep 'em coming Carole, you are doing very well and it's fun to lend you a hand...Modernist (talk) 01:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Coming behind me as you have, are there any topics from the WP:MOS that you think would be helpful for me to read about? I started reading the manual and it has a lot of wonderful info, but it's also a bit overwhelming. Anything you think would be especially good for me to read? --CaroleHenson (talk) 02:30, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Just reference it as you need to, and do your best...Modernist (talk) 03:11, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, will do, it's a big document. I used it, though, for translation of a french quote, hopefully I understood correctly what to do in terms of formatting. If you're interested and have the time, I'm finished with the Vase of Roses article. --CaroleHenson (talk) 13:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Carole, I'll take a look...Modernist (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

WBFAN

Hi - This edit [7] will be undone the next time the bot runs. Every time it runs it reconstructs the entire table from the yearly lists like WP:FA2009.

Looking at the nom history of The Swimming Hole, Raul654 was listed at the time as the nominator, and the nominators for Las Meninas were listed as Ceoil and Johnbod. Are you saying you were a co-nom for these? -- Rick Block (talk) 03:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I worked editing The Swimming Hole with Raul654 and JNW and we 3 brought it to FA status - edit count there is 132 - JNW; 122 - Raul654 - 70 me and 63 Ceoil; likewise I worked Las Meninas with Ceoil, Johnbod, Tyrenius, JNW and a few others - without being listed as nominator, although we all contributed to the FA status, admittedly my contribution there was only strategic. It is somewhat of a confusing process, thanks for the clarification...Modernist (talk) 04:12, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't actually care - WBFAN is meant to be an encouragement for folks to both work on FAs and (tangibly) take them through the FA nomination process (articles that meet all the criteria but are never nominated are not FAs). If you feel slighted, by all means update the records (I assume Raul654, and Ceoil and Johnbod with have no problem with this). The place to make the updates that will "take" is WP:FA2009 (for The Swimming Hole) and WP:FA2008 (for Las Meninas). -- Rick Block (talk) 04:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Per [8] I've added you as a co-nom for The Swimming Hole [9]. If you want to add yourself as a co-nom for Las Meninas please feel free. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Rick, appreciated...Modernist (talk) 10:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Service award level

There has been a major revision of the the Service Awards: the edit requirements for the higher levels have been greatly reduced, to make them reasonably attainable.

Because of this, your Service Award level has been changed, and you are now eligible for a higher level. I have taken the liberty of updating your award on your user page.

Herostratus (talk) 08:44, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks...Modernist (talk) 10:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations! --CaroleHenson (talk) 05:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Template for van Gogh

I am enjoying working on the van Gogh paintings - and thanks for all your help along the way! I have two questions for you related to the templalte of van Gogh paintings Template:Vincent van Gogh. 1) I tried to search to find guidance on the placement of information in the paintings section of the template. Do you know, by chance, if there's an order here (or should be an order to the paintings in the template)? 2) I don't think that all the articles written of van Gogh's paintings are in the template. If I was to work on that, would it be ok to put the paintings into groupings by period (Holland, Paris, etc.?) Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I would like you to organize them chronologically, and please add all those paintings that have corresponding articles, keep up the good work Carole...Modernist (talk) 02:22, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, sounds good! Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Olive Trees (series)

Thanks for your edits on the Olive Trees - you always add a nice polish! Question for you: It was a lot of information to share -- many more nuances than I expected. Does it seem to you as if the article flows well? Or, do you have any ideas about how to make it flow a bit better? Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 05:04, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Carole you have done a terrific series, and I'm sure it will grow in time. The article covers the territory and does a good job explaining the subtle differences between paintings and groups of paintings that are packed with complex meaning and psychological implications. Good job...Modernist (talk) 05:11, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! If you think the flow of the sections is ok, I'll stop swirling in my mind about that.

I'll return to the van Gogh template, in a bit. I'm still thinking about that (e.g., what steps to take next to take the paintings out of the overall van Gogh template, and how to approach so that it's a meaningful contribution over the list of works). I'll go back to your comments and keep thinking about it.

In the meantime, I'm next going to start a grouping of Wheat Fields, which appears to be the subject of a lot of paintings over the 10 year period. I was thinking of grouping them by period (Holland, Arles, Saint Remy (a specific field visible from his room: "The Wheat Field"), and Auvers) unless another way of grouping them becomes apparrent. Any thoughts about that, such as 1) does grouping by period make sense? 2) would the name be "Wheat Field (series)", where the current, specific The Wheat Field would be a section (which I would expand and refer to)? Thanks again!--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Carole according to User:R.P.D. now User:RogoPD there is a series - of Wheat field paintings. Go for it...Modernist (talk) 16:47, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi, cool. I like the idea of working on another series- it's fun. Yes I saw the exiting, specific group of paintings "The Wheat Field" that for the field van Gogh saw from his room in Saint Remy. I could either: 1) expand the article and retitle "The Wheat Field" to something like "Wheat Field (series)" or 2) make a new article "Wheat Field (series)" and refer to "The Wheat Field" for the Saint Remy section. Is there a preference?

By the way, from another talk item from my page, I'll follow up with the editor who started the van Gogh articles about the image snafu. Thanks for the suggestion!--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:44, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

anti-Semitism question

I started a protracted thread on Noleander at AN/I - I do not recall your participating;[10] the whole case has been moved to ArbCom.[11] I regret this because I never wanted this to be a personal conflict between Noleander and myself. I did wish to get the community to discuss how to recognize and address anti-Semitic editing. I know that this is a far cry from art history (although perhaps there is one fundamental issue in common: how does one interpret a text) but i think you have also expressed concerns about anti-Semitism in the paast. If you have any suggestions about how one can recognize anti-Semitic texts - in this context, how to distinguish between adding text at WP that is about anti-Semitism, or that is simply poorly-written information about Jews, and actual anti-Semitic writing, I would really appreciate your input. I think this is an issue the community has had a lot of trouble confronting, and I find it hard sometimes to explain effectively. By the way - I know you have edited the Rousseau article, does this reflect a general knowledge of French intellectual history? Do you know much about Durkheim? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 13:30, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I am certainly no expert on Durkheim or French intellectual history or anti-Semitism. I certainly don't like anti-Semitism; I will look through the diffs...Modernist (talk) 15:45, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Performing Wikipedia

I finished a round of intense changes to Performance Art. Since I am no native speaker, I'd like you having a look, or two, over my plowing through the article.--fluss (talk) 19:07, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll give it some thought either later or tomorrow...Modernist (talk) 22:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

All your better expressions and additions … Fine! --fluss (talk) 21:07, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you help me with a feedback regarding the article Barbara Weil? I am very unsafe about my abilities to translate to and to write in English. I believed, at least regarding idioms and style the article needs to be polished. So I tried to get corrections with the copyediting and dual fluency- boxes and other activites. I am confused, because until now there were just minor changes. Wikipedia is just slow here? Do you see much that can be said in a better style, or does it read fine, just a handfull of corrections left? Shall the boxes stay? --fluss (talk) 10:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Discovered the lot of changes by MrGardiner, so it happened a lot. But I still have the last two questions.--fluss (talk) 11:36, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I will take a look when I have time...Modernist (talk) 11:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

United Artists Rating

Dear Modernist, I make references to the rating categories only for the painters, who have unsufficient information in section "Legacy" and need additional information about art critics opinion. For example, Monticelli is not a minor figire, I am sure, but you've left that opinion and deleted my reference, and called me a spammer. I am not a spammer, I am PhD. art-critic. --Ozolina (talk) 12:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Your link is not necessary to those artists biographies - rather you are promoting the validity of that particular volume. Your additions appear to be spam...Modernist (talk) 13:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I've answered you at my talk page. --Ozolina (talk) 13:25, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 April 12#Susanne Kessler

Hi Modernist. Because you participated in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susanne Kessler, you may be interested in Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 April 12#Susanne Kessler. Would you help new user Leda47 (talk · contribs) source Wikipedia:Article Incubator/Susanne Kessler so it may be returned to the mainspace? Thank you, Cunard (talk) 05:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you're here!

It's always great to see you come and make my articles better!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Carole your articles are fabulous, wow, keep em coming...Modernist (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

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The Card Players

Hi Modernist, at your convenience, would you mind scanning an article I've created for Cézanne's The Card Players series on my work page? I mainly want to ensure the POV issues check out and everything is cited appropriately. It's at User:Chimino/Work1, thanks.--Chimino (talk) 11:03, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Excellent! Good job on an important article...Modernist (talk) 11:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I was actually surprised no one had created the article previously. I'm going to give Carole a chance to scan it before I publish.--Chimino (talk) 11:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you mind rating the article for the VA Project? I'm not quite certain what rates B vs C class, thanks:The Card Players (Cezanne)--Chimino (talk) 03:35, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Olivia Shakespear

Hi Modernist, I thought I'd let you know that Olivia is nominated at FAC, and hoped you might have time to take a look. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi TK I'm about halfway through reading it; I'll probably need to look again in the morning...Modernist (talk) 23:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for finding the image. I'll start a page on Georgie so it's not a red-link, but as usual am multitasking and not doing any one thing well. Hopefully will get to it later tonight. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I will re-read Olivia again probably tomorrow :)...Modernist (talk) 22:19, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your review and for making me realize we needed a page for Georgie Hyde-Lees too! Another modernist done. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Long time no speak

This is horrible and beautyful at the same time.[12]. How is all. Ceoil 01:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Yo, great to see you; and I loved that tune - really great...Modernist (talk) 01:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Glad you liked it, I though you might. Any interest in crashing JNW's joint later this evening [13]. Ceoil 20:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll bring something...Modernist (talk) 22:05, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Pyramid of Skulls

Thanks for adding this to Cezanne's bio, and for all the etc. Well done, as always. After the inhumanities of the last century the painting has even more visual resonance than when it was painted--one thinks of Cambodia.

On a lighter note, I'm still totaling up the bill for damages at the party, not yet including emotional trauma. Cheers, JNW (talk) 00:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Really nice article, I had a friend who did a similar series - late 80s. Tough subject though..Modernist (talk) 02:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Saint-Paul Hospital, Saint-Remy

Thanks so much for your guidance, edits, formatting support in writing this article!! For the moment, I have gathered about as much as I could find relatively easily for the article. Is there anything that you think needs done that I'm missing (e.g., style issues, bits of information, other?). Thanks again!--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Give it a rest Carole, you are doing a terrific job, I'll re-read it in a while. Come back to it after a while...Modernist (talk) 20:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, sounds good! thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:25, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

The Sun Also Rises

Thanks for keeping an eye out there. Some of those additions feel as though they're end-of-semester, edit wikipedia type of work. I can't tell whether they're genuine attempts to add to the page, or to prove how bad wikipedia is by adding unsourced material. Anyway, one the IPs geolocates to Elon University; I won't be surprised to see more of that kind of stuff at this time of year. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:43, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

No problem, there seems to be a sudden surge of strange stuff...Modernist (talk) 20:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the review and all the help for the past year-and-a-half of so. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 23:37, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

This was my kneejerk reaction too, but I have been known to make mistakes so I looked it up. I was wrong - must have had Lady Duff/Brett in my head at the time. But I'm not sure it makes sense now, so am thinking about what to do with it. Just so you know & thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:01, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Well like Dylan said: Nobody can be all right all of the time (Talkin' World War III Blues 1963)...:) Modernist (talk) 14:07, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Van Gogh paintings - Barnstar

		The Barnstar of Fine Arts
		Thanks for all your incredible support on the van Gogh articles of paintings and groups of paintings! I think we've covered somewhere between 150-200 paintings in total in twenty or so articles. They wouldn't be nearly as polished or conforming to guidelines without you!!! And besides, it's been a pleasure to work with you on these! Great job!--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:41, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Carole, it's been a pleasure working with you too...Modernist (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Ye guys are doing great work, its a pleasure to watch. Ceoil 19:29, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Ty...Modernist (talk) 21:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Modernist, can you take a look at the gallery in Truthkeepers sandboxed version of the van der Weyden. I'm all for galleries, but have not hit the right note with this one. Its disconnected from the text, need to make it more integrated, less a random collection. When you have time. There is a you tube link in it for you. Ceoil 22:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Ceoil! I've been taking a short break to work on an article present for my mother (who needs nothing, to share with her friends of her Brigadoon) but I'll be back van Gogh-ing very soon. It's nice to know the articles are being appreciated!!!!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Carole, yeah I'm watching ye as ye work, and its great to see. Myself and Modernist have done a lot of work on the main bio, and am delighted to see the energy on the works. Almost restores my faith in wiki! Keep on going. Ceoil 07:50, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Ceoil! The two of you did a great job on the bio - I used the format\sections as a reference point for working on bios for several Wyeth painters. Great job!--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

XfD of interest

Please see Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2011_May_3#File:20070624_Dubuffet_-_Court_les_rues.JPG. Based on your FUR involvement on the image page, I assume you are interested in this discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:51, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Blute-fin

Very cool find regarding the Blute-fin painting!!! Great job!--CaroleHenson (talk) 04:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah but you are doing the hard work...Modernist (talk) 04:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Seine paintings

Hello Modernist, Hope all is well with you! You seem to be a whizz (sp?) at finding images, especially for things that aren't oil paintings, and I was hoping you could help me out by helping me find an image for Gate in the Paris ramp, 1886 (F1401). It's a really pretty watercolor and I have a write-up in the Seine article, but try as I might I cannot find this image. Do you know where I might find this? Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:25, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll look around...Modernist (talk) 00:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:33, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't see it on anywhere, it needs to be uploaded...Modernist (talk) 01:51, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! Do you know a site that would be a good place to check for allowable images? If not, no worries, I'll drop it. I feel like it's definitely been given a good college try!.--CaroleHenson (talk) 02:27, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Van Gogh Early Works

Hi Modernist, You probably felt a bit at home in the Van Gogh Early Works article as I found some great referenced information from the Vincent van Gogh article. I created this mainly to remove a bunch of one line articles. Is there anything that you think needs to be done to wrap this particular article up? For now, I think I'm done with Les Alyscamps and Falling Autumn Leaves, unless there's something that pops out that needs done, I just wanted to round out the articles a bit and ensure proper linkage from the List of Works article. Thanks so much for your continual review/editing of the vvg articles!!! And, I LOVED the painting you added to Olive Trees!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 13:02, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Carole, once again - good job. I would like to see you add some more text to the lede; perhaps a brief description of the scenes he passed through leading up to his drawing and painting of the locals and Theo's encouragement. The sections covering in detail what you briefly outline in the lede. Carole I am very pleased with your terrific work...Modernist (talk) 13:19, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Sure, sounds good!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Remarkable

Notice any simalarities? [14], [15]. And hello. Ceoil 03:47, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Well yeah, I guess the question now is could Freddie paint? Hmmm...Modernist (talk) 03:51, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Does it matter. He could wiggle very well on stage, and throw a good shape, and so very rocked, har. Thats prob enough for one man. He was only one man! Paul, though, was a much darker, and it seems unkind figure, I dont have my mind made up here yet, like the work - a lot, but not the man, from my diggings so far. Ceoil 04:23, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, he's a tough sell, the prick ran out on his wife and kids, screwed his friends, and was competitive and egotistical, but a great painter; really great painter and uniquely original and above all gutsy, didn't hedge his bets - he was in all the way...Modernist (talk) 05:13, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you can seperate the man and the work. Gaugain was certainly a bit of a prick, and I dont think he was a good person at all for poor Vincent, or any painter coming up after him (ref Yeats was the same). There would be reservations about Goya as a man, but I'd guess there was an element of self preservation probably to an extent we don't know about yet, or will ever know. But the integrity of the work, and the personality that comes out of it, is stellar. I ve made an advance in my taste recently, its like people who come to classic music late settle of the baroque, my 'arty' friends say I settled on Bacon and Goya, and would never advance to Cezzane and Poussin. (Well they came to music late, I came to painting late, so the bitching goes both ways he he). Yeah, Cezzane, but I can never see myself likeing such an achedimic, dry and cold a painter as Poussin. JNW hints at what is there, I don't see it, or even want to see it. Ceoil 10:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

No question that with Goya there is great art; he pushed the envelope; expanded the definition of what painting can be; and he made art with a conscience. Although he navigated through treacherous and dangerous political waters, his work managed to survive those deadly times. Clearly he was more successful at navigating through treachery than was Courbet who got his balls caught in a political ringer. Cezanne was also a bit of a prick by the way. A great read is The Masterpiece by Emile Zola...Modernist (talk) 11:09, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Look at what happened to Gorky under Stalin. Of that whole generation of writers, artists, and composers (all the same thing) only Eisenstein came out unscated and uncruppted by the standards of the time. Balls. I suspect Goya had giant balls, but we dont know exactly what happened with him. If he were a wikipedian we'd have to AGF, such crap! Ceoil 17:56, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Re Zola, I'll check it out, ta for tip. Cezanne was a prick? So is dylan, neil young, bowie, almost any creative type you could think of. Van Morrisson always strike me, and we talked about him before, the gap between the estatic music and the dour man (note I have a political view on him you might have guessed). I don't think, from my reading so far Mattisse was very easy to live with, and Picasso was not exactly knd to his women. Bacon was cold cold cold.[16] Lucia Freud prob worse. Jesus, these types. And such empathy in the work![17] Ceoil 11:17, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, we are a strange, selfish, and self-centered lot. When Zola got in trouble only Monet and Pissarro had the moxie to stand by him. Cezanne never talked to him again...Modernist (talk) 11:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

"We"? No Modernist, you are a gentleman. I like your paintings, a lot, but you are one of the kindest and most thoughtful people I've come across. That and creative is a rear combination. Ceoil 11:33, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, there is the other side of me. Although I've tried to become an exception...Modernist (talk) 11:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Ingre's non portraits - v nice to look at, but self important, lifeless and stiff.

There is another side to everybody. I know two other people in real life with your temperament, and they are a joy. Anyway, back on subject, was Ingres trying to be Poussin? I find Ingres endlessly facinating, but whenever text turns to his detail on history painting and his theories of art, my eyes glaze over. Ceoil 12:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I was introduced to Ingres when I was 15, and Poussin a little later. With Ingres (think ang) I appreciated the line quality in the drawings which eventually leads to Matisse and Picasso. Truth be told - Poussin never struck a chord with me - his paintings always seem too busy. While the Ingres paintings are individual powerhouses - a little overdone - but powerhouses, initially influenced me around '68 but after that I always tried to incorporate the everyday into my work unlike either of those guys...Modernist (talk) 12:25, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Re over cooked. I think one of the problems with the history paintings is that he was too concerned with colour, while the composure suffered. Sometimes, and I dont have any interest in these works at all, there are brilliant passages, with gorgeous colourisation, but they dont work as a unified whole. I havn't gone though a Mattisse phase yet, so I have that to look forward to. A troubled soul, and had a very difficult time of it. An outcast and an embarrasment to his family before he hit sucess. Thats familiar from the story of friends of mine who stuck with music after their early 20s. A rough, tough, thankless path. Ceoil 17:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Re Matisse - As much as I love Picasso I think Matisse is my favorite painter in the first half of the 20th century, although Picasso is still probably my choice, but it's close...Modernist (talk) 21:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

And the second half? Ceoil 22:28, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Pollock, de Kooning, Kline, and Hofmann, followed by Diebenkorn, me and some of my friends...Modernist (talk) 22:31, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

For me its Freud, Balthus, Maggie Hamilton and Jenny Saville. Saville for many reasons. Anorexia is a horible thing, and its in my face at the moment (not me). Also Saville is very painterly, something I dont get from ye Americans. She is the same age as me, more or less, and has a punk astethic. Very English/Euro centric selection there, I know. I saw two Pollock's in Venice two summers ago and they floored me. What physicality. Cindy Sherman is a big thing with me, and I almost prefer leafing through photography catelogues that paintings. Ceoil 23:59, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

There's alot of great art; I prefer abstraction...Modernist (talk) 00:47, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Poussin has always been my least favorite old master, with the exception of Jan Gossaert. And though I've always had unapologetic tendencies in my preferences and practices, the older I get the less apt I am to take up any banners. I.e., I know enough to know I know nothing. JNW

Yeah, the older I get the less crucial any of it seems...Modernist (talk) 16:31, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I no longer live and die from painting to painting; it used to seem very important. Now some pictures work, some don't, and the angst and enjoyment are nicely muted by a less strident self-absorption. Likewise, the recognition one so strongly desired in youth is seen for the salve to insecurity that it is. Still it is fun to look at a picture with a sense of passionate engagement similar to what we felt when much younger, though now tempered by time. As the above discussion evidences, the artists may be long gone, but their presences are here, always (I'm on the Maine coast this week....had hoped to paint outside, but the weather's keeping me indoors to wax philosophic-like). JNW

Enjoy the grand countryside, in Maine, I'm looking forward to going out west soon...Modernist (talk) 21:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

The world needs both painters and philosophers, JNW. But if you only expound when its raining, you might end up with some very strange followers.[18] Ceoil 20:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

The kid knows how to dress. The last few days I did go outside, because the world needs more fog-bound rain-steeped coastal paintings. Standing on slippery rocks by the ocean, the air so saturated with moisture that each stroke of paint merely displaced an equally full dollop of rain water from the canvas. Ridiculous, but cozy indoors, and it's possible to find a good lobster roll, even this early in the season. Just stay away from those bearing the stamp of a particular Maine outdoor wear establishment intent on buying up all the good property here and replacing it with their merchandising--their lobster rolls are awful. Hope things are brighter on the Emerald Isle than they are on the east coast. JNW

By the way, Ceoil, check out my favorite misanthrope Walter Sickert, protege of Whistler and Degas, now credited as a predecessor of Bacon and Freud. JNW

Wasn't he the guy they thought might have been Jack the Ripper?. Actually a pretty nice painter though [19]...Modernist (talk) 02:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, in part because of paintings like The Camden Town Murder series, and his fascination with the darker side of London life, but the claims don't hold up. JNW

It's a sordid tale; although I think Cornwall was off her rocker...Modernist (talk) 03:19, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Am looking at a lot of Sickert in the last few days. I like them a lot. The nudes espically, are like the pounds of flesh you see with bacon and Freud. He seems to have been very much detatched from his models. Ceoil 21:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Van Gogh drawings

I know that you're interested in expanding the VG drawings and watercolors article. (I try to remember to move over images from articles I've worked on.) Anyway, I stumbled upon this article at the Met in NY that you might enjoy: Vincent van Gogh (1853–1890): The Drawings.--CaroleHenson (talk) 07:03, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

plural or singular Gogh?

If paintings of Amsterdam by Vincent van Gogh is OK with a plural in the title, why must still life by Vincent van Gogh (Holland) have a singular? See also this exchange. — [[::User:RHaworth|RHaworth]] (talk · contribs) 09:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

The key to my comment was the (Holland) that you left out when you made the name change. Frankly Still life paintings by Vincent van Gogh (Holland) works too...Modernist (talk) 10:27, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Naming

Please see the latest update - well really a question to wrap things up at: User talk:RHaworth#Moved Still Life of Vincent van Gogh (Holland). Thanks again for everything you do! You're amazing!--CaroleHenson (talk) 13:36, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Still life paintings by Vincent van Gogh (Holland) and Still life paintings by Vincent van Gogh (Paris) works for me...Modernist (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the quick reply. Do you mind responding about Amsterdam on RHaworth's page, then we can close out the issue, call it a day, move on... (I'm punchy in a silly way at the moment. Not meaning at all to be rude or appear inpatient.)--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:04, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Barnstar of Fine Arts
		If anybody deserves this Barnstar, you do Glic16 (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you...Modernist (talk) 01:16, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The Magdalen Reading

Thanks for the support on The Magdalen Reading. I'm really pleased with how it turned out. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

You guys did a good job...Modernist (talk) 16:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Well Ceoil did the heavy lifting on this one, but it was a fun page to work on. More complicated than it seemed it would be. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

M, I'm going to sandbox a working draft for Vincent, extracts from the article that we can work through in bite sizes, and talk through on the sandbox talk, without cluttering the main talk page. Did you see TK and Liz are part of the team? The old FA team or what? I spent today throwing down a few sources on Ingres I had bought a few weeks back, but will be back on Vincent shortly..... Ceoil 03:42, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh and by the way, I could do with a few tunes, if you have any.[20] Ceoil 03:43, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I think we definitely need to improve the text, some better text in the lede, and some better writing throughout. I have also asked Carole to join us. I think now that we have so many articles to link to we will have an amazing article. Already we have the best, I have looked at all the other VvG articles - the Italian, German and French are good but ours is better. Great tune, thanks for Neil Young...Modernist (talk) 04:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

You know when my hard drive died two months ago I lost my entire music collection. Am building it up since, as it occurs to me, downloaded a bunch of Johnny Ray and Geno Washington last night, or in other words, bombard me with tunes please man! [21] Ceoil 10:20, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

[22]. Ceoil 14:54, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Visual Arts Ambassador for WikiProject MoMA

Hi Modernist. I don't know if you noticed my comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts#Seeking Visual Arts Ambassador for WikiProject MoMA; are you interested in possibly filling this role? With your subject interest and great experience in the wikiproject, you would seem to be an excellent fit :)--Pharos (talk) 17:48, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

What is entailed? What would I be expected to do?..Modernist (talk) 17:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The main goals of the Visual Arts ambassador would be to interface between WikiProject Visual arts and WikiProject MoMA on article creation and improvement, responding to requests from museum staff, and assisting students engaged in MoMA educational outreach.--Pharos (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

As an advisor, I can do that...Modernist (talk) 18:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Awesome, you are now officially our Visual Arts Ambassador. Welcome to the team! (of which you are now member #5) :P--Pharos (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

BTW, I was thinking we should maybe start up a couple of joint task forces between WikiProject Visual arts and WikiProject MoMA, kind of like Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Aesthetics. What do you think about one task force for 'Modern artists' and one for 'Modern art concepts'?--Pharos (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The VA project isn't broken, why mess it up?...Modernist (talk) 20:41, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The Modern has a lot of problems by the way...Modernist (talk) 20:56, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Either way M, I can't think of anybody more suited by temprament or experience to the role of 'ambassador'. You'll be just fine, and will benifit both sides. Ceoil 23:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, the taskforce(s) idea is for a place to organize students we're recruiting through MoMA's educational outreach, who would be working on a broad range of general modern art articles, and not just on paintings and sculptures that happen to be in MoMA's collection.--Pharos (talk) 22:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Just popping this up for your thoughts, I think this comment might have gotten lost in the talk page shuffle...--Pharos (talk) 18:12, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Van Gogh

I keep seeing Van Gogh articles appear in my watchlist. Want help?--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Giotto

Wotchit! You'll have the dreaded Attilios on your case. He's almost got me bluffed, where galleries are concerned......

Amandajm (talk) 13:43, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks but someone's got to do this...Modernist (talk) 13:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

MoMA FA Prize list

It's been drawn from this, which is what the MoMA ppl like I guess. How did you select the additions you added to the list?--Pharos (talk) 22:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

My additions come from my familiarity with the collection, the museum, wikipedia and what in my opinion is important, I suspect that my opinion and the 'MoMA' people differ somewhat philosophically...Modernist (talk) 22:33, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I notice that you have discovered

User:SarahStierch. Me too. Here is my thought. We allow her as much room as she needs to maneuver in and a fair amount of time to do so. She is in an (opinion) interesting position and let's her do what she sees fit. we need to keep the usual wikipedia oversights happening, but always let us keep in mind that she has good intentions and ultimately might move our section (the art world) a step upwards. Okay so she goes in a tags 10,000 articles in a week. Done. Then what? LIfe is supposed to be interesting. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 04:46, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I hear you...Modernist (talk) 04:49, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

THUD . . . . (Sound of me hitting my pillow after too much . . . . . ............... life.) Carptrash (talk) 04:59, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

That's what happens...Modernist (talk) 05:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Vince

Incoming. And tune[23]. Ceoil 17:10, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Fantastic...Modernist (talk) 17:22, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Two things - about the Neil Young tune up-page - reminded me of living in Boulder and going up the mountains to the tiniest little hamlet with the tiniest little bar. Young would show up and croon for the evening. Those were good times. Getting off the mountain was always an adventure though. About the dates - I've found everything to be very strict at FAC these days and there is policy about strong ties or something. I had to change all the dates in my Hemingway articles - I'd formatted in European style and obviously they should be in American. So I'd hold off before making those changes, because chances are very good we'll be asked to change back again. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:10, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I won't make any more changes based on brit or amer, although I am re-editing; my edit changes from here on out won't be based on language...Modernist (talk) 21:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

My father was born in Boulder, nice Neil Young story...Modernist (talk) 21:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Nothing about it in his page and can't remember the name of the place. It was a secret and truly a nightmare getting there & back - those are the kinds of roads where four wheel drive is relevant and you do need a driver to stay sober for the night. I never saw him in concert; never needed to. Bonnie Raitt showed up there, & Karla Bonoff. Now I'll have to search the web to see if I can find this place - splinter in my brain. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:24, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, years ago we'd spend the summers in the wilderness of Southern Utah, driving this winding dirt road into the mountain wilderness, sometimes with the old Dodge van half off the road, and when it rained it became really hairy...Modernist (talk) 21:29, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

It's always real hairy when it rains there. It was more hairy in Colorado in the winter - I remember being the driver one time, probably in my VW that for some reason was better than a 4 x 4, and wondering whether I'd get us off the mountain. But the music was worth it. For some reason, I'm thinking it was a by-invitation only sort of place, so if you were invited, you went. I was very young. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

It helps to be young (no pun intended), what with the rattlesnakes, lions, steep cliffs, and lack of electricity and indoor plumbing; or indoor anything for that matter; we pretty much stopped going there after my kids were born...Modernist (talk) 21:46, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

West of Boulder on Gold Run Road is Gold Hill Inn. That's the place. It's a very scary looking road on the google maps, curvy as hell. It's an old mining town, half ghost town. Your dad probably would have known about it. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:50, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I will try to remember, when I go to Colorado...Modernist (talk) 00:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Wrap-up of a couple of things

Hi Modernist, I'm working on wrapping up a couple of things regarding Van Gogh and interested in your thoughts about two things:

• I had started an article about his mistress Sien on my workspace - but did not get real far on it. If you think it would add some value (i.e., 6 or more on a scale of 1-10), I can wrap that up. If it won't add much value, I'm happy to have it deleted altogether or rewrite as a stub.
• There were 158 Van Gogh pages (which included some talk pages) that I was watching previously, but a couple of days ago I removed most of them from my watch list. It seems that in most cases any edits that were made to the articles were either 1) helpful to the quality or content of the article or 2) vandalism, which you caught. I rarely changed any of the edits. So the question is: would you recommend that I add some or all of them back to my watch list to catch the rare occassions, or not?

Thanks so much Modernist!--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi Carole, I suggest adding all of the VvG articles and various talk pages to your watchlist and try to finish your Sien start, it looks pretty good so far and I think your work on Vincent has been incredibly valuable. once you launch it I'll edit it a little. Basically having those items on your watchlist will keep you in the loop if any drastic changes occur or if something arises that draws you in again, I have more than 3000 pages on mine...Modernist (talk) 02:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, if you think it would be valuable I'll work on Sien and get it to startish stage (it's such a sad story). I'm having fun with Benson at the moment, but I'll pick away at Sien. Thanks for the kind words! Yes, I'll add back in VvG articles to my watch list. Oh, my goodness 3000 pages. I miss stuff at 195 pages - I'm amazed and once again impressed!!! Thanks, Modernist!--CaroleHenson (talk) 03:28, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I finished drafting the Sien article. There's of course lots more information - a ton in the Zemel book alone. I said so on the Discussion tab should a Modernist Jr. or Carole Jr. come along interested in doing so.

I had a snafu with the move: so I've requested the blank article page for Sien Hoornik (Van Gogh series) be removed. Until that page is removed and I can move the article, it's still in my workspace, feel free to make whatever changes you'd like.--CaroleHenson (talk) 04:56, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a look - no rush though...Modernist (talk) 12:10, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Ipigott has suggested that the article title does not contain her last name: Sien (Van Gogh series). Either way is fine for me. Do you have an opinion?--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:41, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Just - Sien (Van Gogh series) seems good...Modernist (talk) 16:23, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good, done.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:09, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your copy edit of the Sien article! Great catches!--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:50, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Rubens Belgian?

Hi Modernist, On the Peter Paul Rubens page, it says that his nationality was "Belgian". Belgium was only founded in 1830 so it seemed quite absurd to me to call him that. By that rational we should call Julius Ceasar "Italian" and Vercingetorix "French" and so on. That is why I deleted this anachronism, but you seem to believe it should remain there. May I ask why you think so? Greetings Timusuke (talk) 13:29, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. My take on these dilemmas is while you are technically correct we live in a different geographical map today. In today's world - where we currently exist; we understand Rubens to have been Belgian. If in Rubens time he was of a place of a different name - my suggestion would be to indicate that. If during his day he was from 'Westphalia' you might say that; adding a (modern day Germany) or Belgium proviso...Modernist (talk) 13:40, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I've added "modern-day Germany" to his place of birth and "modern-day Belgium" to his place of death. I'm not sure what his nationality in modern-day terms should say since he was born in Germany and died in Belgium. I don't think 'nationality' was as official back then as it is now, but at least now the readers can judge by them selves. Cheers! Timusuke (talk) 16:47, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Well done...Modernist (talk) 17:02, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I need help

Modernist, can you weigh in on the images on List of large triptychs by Francis Bacon. What is the point in an article like that if its not illustrated. Deeply fustrating and from unthinking bot like people. I had an admission from one last week that they behave above legal requirments, ie they get off on it, somehow. Ceoil 12:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Take a look at WP:NFCC#10c that is not optional. Every file must have a rationale for every use. Blindly re-adding without fixing the problem is not acceptable. ΔT _{^{The only constant}} 12:29, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Blindly deleting without fixing the problem is less acceptable. Power hungry often? Acceptable from the likes of you is a fucking joke. Ceoil 12:38, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Clearly each image needs a Fair use Rationale, I'll see what I can do...Modernist (talk) 12:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Modernist, Please dont just copy/paste rationales. A correct rationale explains why a particular file is needed on a particular page. The copy/paste rationales that you are doing are not really sufficient ΔT _{^{The only constant}} 12:45, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

It's a beginning - the rationales can be re-articulated to a more specific description, however at present they serve as important visual examples to flesh out the meaning of the article. I will re-write them...Modernist (talk) 12:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Ignore that prick. Modernist my thanks - [24]. Ceoil 13:56, 12 June 2011 (UTC)