Talk:Chinese civilization

"China" redirect

Why China doesn't redirect to here? Isn't that biased? In other wikipedia languages the term China redirects to PRC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.69.110.164 (talk) 13:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Unhappy in SAO PAULO. Just get the PRC to announce that Taiwan is not part of China and we'll fix that right up for you. Hcobb (talk) 21:51, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't actually help seeing as the ROC nominally claims China. --Cybercobra (talk) 03:41, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't make sense since Republic of China (Taiwan) claims all of mainland China (PRC + Outer Mongolia) as ROC national territory.Phead128 (talk) 20:36, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The current situation is that we have two governments who each claim to the legitimate government of all China and that they'll merge at some point in the unknown future. The opposition in Taiwan has called for a split, but they don't set policy. Hcobb (talk) 22:33, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, China is the PRC, and China is not ROC, for all intents and purposes. However, the main 'China' article talks about China as a continuous civilization, a nation-state, or a cultural unit or identity... so I like the way it is now. It is fine.Phead128 (talk) 20:51, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Political reasons within wikipedia. The redirect should send readers where most readers are expecting to go when typing china. This answer is for the original poster. 190.51.168.236 (talk) 13:21, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

For the last time, this is a NON-ISSUE, and will remain one so long as Taiwan is ruled by a government different from mainland China. Read Chinese naming conventions. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 13:33, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

wikipedians are not a crystal ball and will remain like that as long as wikipedians are not a crystal ball policy is not overthrown by a new consensus. Read wikipedians ain't a crystal ball 190.51.168.236 (talk) 13:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I DON'T need IPs to tell me about policy and to talk down to me like that. So long as the benefits of greater cross-strait interaction are apparent, reunification is inevitable. Besides, China has existed in some form for far longer than the PRC. Similarly, the Republic of China had significant history on mainland China before it hopped over to Taiwan. This is another reason why we don't even consider these merges and that this is a NON-ISSUE FOR THE LAST TIME --HXL's Roundtable and Record 14:26, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

-- extracted from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=424862903&oldid=424862781 . I moved it here instead of naming conventions because this is not about naming conventions, but about a redirect, something far more specific.

I will just summarize what i said with: The redirect should send readers where most readers are expecting to go when typing china. But i guess wikipedians as well as people in real life tend to stick with the same opinion over and over, mentioning only what favours their opinion, forgetting that the decision shoud be based in a balance of the pro and cons, a balance that is subjective. 190.51.168.236 (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Not redirecting to PRC article is correct because it is NEUTRAL and educates English readers who likely are mostly non-Chinese to become aware Two Chinas exist, despite the international lie the Chinese Communists are able to push on UN. Wikipedia is for educational and reference purposes, not political. --Mistakefinder (talk) 21:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

BTW, why doesn't Europe redirect to European Union? Hcobb (talk) 21:36, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Because not all the countries in Europe are in the EU. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 23:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I think that was a rhetorical, sarcastic question. Hehe –HXL's Roundtable and Record 23:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

"So long as the benefits of greater cross-strait interaction are apparent, reunification is inevitable" isn't a crystal ball? According to Wikipedia's ROC article, the majority of the ROC public favors the political status quo and a plurality doesn't identify as Chinese anymore (opting for Taiwanese as an identifier). Most people that search China have very little at stake, and this particular "international lie" (which is being given unduly weight) frankly isn't what they meant to search. China is not unique in the fact that there is a conflict of interest over its name; this is a really weak reason for keeping this bizarre arrangement on Wikipedia. This reminds me of when Iranian nationalists try to push the name Persia onto the Iran article just because Persia "has existed in some form for far longer than" Iran. Oh wait, who do I sound like now? The current article on China gives as much representation of the PRC as the Palestine article does to the State of Palestine article. Unfortunately the rationale being used here is heavily rooted in blind nationalism that's preventing any productive change from taking place. -141.214.17.5 (talk) 17:32, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your relatively calm tone. Take note here that many of us who support this arrangement are from the PRC, and PRC nationalism would be screaming things like "PRC only!", and as the current state effectively is "Two Chinas" officially/constitutionally vying to be the One China, there is no such thing as a "China nationalist". There was an argument raised at Talk:Persia#Persia and Iran that "as long as the Persian people see themselves as Persians living in Iran...so will the world" that is a good point: many in Taiwan think they are not only Chinese ethnicity, but people of China (中国人). It is not Wikipedia's task to disregard these viewpoints in favour of the retarded Western viewpoint equating China with PRC and Taiwan with ROC. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 17:45, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

How about the non-Persian Arabs who where born in Iran? (At least in English there is a clear distinction between Han and Chinese.) Hcobb (talk) 18:36, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I personally don't see the issue with representing multiple views. However, the fact that both the PRC and ROC are being given this default 50/50 say is where it starts coming across as POV. Most people who do search the topic of China were just not looking for this article (hence why, going through the archives, etc. it's very obvious that this issue hasn't and will not go away). Most English-speaking people do in fact equate China with the PRC. As it already stands, the PRC article mentions Taiwan 4 times and the ROC 2 times in its opening section alone, and the ROC article mentions the PRC twice in its opening section. This nominal dispute is touched on in all of these articles, regardless of which of the three articles you read first. Now throw articles like Political status of Taiwan and History of China into the mix, and now you just have an article on China that is literally just a reiteration of articles that are already in existence, but lacking in its own clear purpose (other than, seemingly, to push the POV that the PRC is not China per se). It is completely redundant and could have whatever little, unique information that it has funneled to other articles easily. Certain sections of this article are rightfully problematic, like the economy section. I'm sure most people that looked up China, interested in learning about its economy, would like a summary of the PRC's economy, no? I'm sure this is a frequently searched topic. Instead this article provides a list of loosely-related links on every Chinese state or dynasty's economy under the sun. Completely unhelpful and hides the information that the majority of these people were looking for behind redirects.

And what about Iranian Arabs..? Getting way off topic and missing the point, but there are many nations already in existence in which the line between ethnicity and nationality is ambiguous (e.g. What about French Algerians? German Turks? Turkish Kurds?). "Iranian" is in fact the Persian word for "Persian" and is equated with a particular ethnicity in Persian language. And I apologize for the long post; I'm not very concise :) -141.214.17.5 (talk) 20:14, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Equating PRC with China will force Wikipedia to take a side on Whether or not Taiwan is a part of the PRC, and we can't do that without violating NPOV. T-1000 (talk) 00:15, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

ROC/PRC order and T-1000's revert of my change and claim of NPOV

User:T-1000 reverted my changes and claimed it was NPOV. How is it NPOV? I only stated the facts and placed founding of ROC first and described briefly. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China&oldid=425969425. Anyone else agree I'm not NPOV? I'll revert his change tomorrow if no objections. --Mistakefinder (talk) 20:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi, your edits clearly state Two Chinas, this POV is contradicted by both the "One China" and the "One China, One Taiwan" POVs. T-1000 (talk) 01:07, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Seconded. "ROC and PRC" or "PRC and ROC" in the section header would be preferred for neutrality. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 01:28, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Prior to my edit, it already says "Two states with name China emerged" with "two states" linking to Two Chinas. So mine isn't any different. Besides, the existence of two Chinas is a fact, not an opinion or POV. But "One China Policy" is a POV of each government, which is presented in its respective articles. --Mistakefinder (talk) 07:24, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, two Chinese government exists de facto, but we must also maintain NPOV about de jure. The Two Chinas article talks about the two China POV, while clearly stating it is not accepted by the PRC or TI. T-1000 (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Whether the legal status of Taiwan is de jure is unresolved in international law. Where's the Wikipedia policy about NPOV about de jure, or disputed de jure issues? And besides this is irrelevant. As I said, the original article PRIOR to my change already lists the two Chinas. So my improvement to switch to chronological order and add the info about the first Republic in Asia I think is justifiable. Any other thoughts? Mistakefinder (talk) 08:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia's NPOV policy is to state every notable viewpoint. "Two states with name China emerged" is different from your edit, which is "China's territory became divided into Two Chinas." since your edit imply a POV that China = PRC+ROC. I am sure you know the TI POV that Taiwan left China in 1895 and was never given back. Furthermore, The Two Chinas article define it as a Term, while your edits states "Two Chinas" as if it were a fact.

This reply was unsigned. I assume it's by T-1000? I guess "TI" is referring to "Taiwan Independence". Isn't "Two states with name China emerged" stating the fact there are two Chinas? And the "Two Chinas" article is not just defining a term but describing the reality there are two Chinas. And what's wrong with China=PRC+ROC? The Communists conquered territory of the ROC to establish the PRC, so PRC split from ROC as a result of the Civil War, so the ROC became ROC+PRC. I am aware of the TI POV but that seems irrelevant because ROC did get possesion of Taiwan (whether the possession is a separate issue), and is in essence "East China" like PRC being "West China", kind of like North Korea and South Korea (which is Republic of Korea). Make sense?

"The ROC is named China" and "The ROC is China" are two different things, the former is a fact, the latter is a POV. The thing wrong with China = PRC+ROC is that there is a notable POV that Taiwan is not part of China. There is no Korean Independence movement in South Korea. As discussed many times before, to Whom Taiwan belongs to is a disputed issue, The Reds views it as belonging to PRC, the Blues belonging to ROC, the Greens as independent,and that the ROC is a government in exile. Because of the Disputed status of Taiwan, China means different things to different people. And that's why Two Chinas is only a POV. Finally, in the Two Chinas article, it specially said that "One opinion in Taiwan is that the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China are both sovereign, thus forming "two Chinas", so the article does not state that it as a fact. T-1000 (talk) 18:38, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Kyletroth, 9 June 2011

There is a grammatical error under Prehistory in the History section. It reads, "Although much controversy persists over the dating of the Liujiang remains,[25][26] a partial skeleton from Minatogawa in Okinawa." This is not a complete sentence. Please change to, "Much controversy persists over the dating of the Liujiang remains[25][26] (a partial skeleton from Minatogawa in Okinawa)."

Kyle Roth. I are wiki 05:56, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done. I also moved the references to the end of the sentence and removed the beginning "Much", since I don't think it adds anything. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 11:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

• China → Chinese civilization
• China (disambiguation) → China

Because China can refer primarily to the current article before 1912, whereas in a more modern context it refers generally to the People's Republic of China, but also to the Republic of China - with all three being listed at the top of the disambiguation page. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:34, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Given China's 5000 year old history this is the primary topic for the term in the past, whereas People's Republic of China is generally considered the primary topic for current usage of the term. Additionally the disambiguation link is currently not particularly clear if you want to read about china in the context of fine porcelain.

I want to keep the Republic of China's de-facto status in the current article as a sub-primary topic to reduce the scope of this move request, any issues with that its status with regards to being a primary topic can be sorted out later. Of note while generally disambiguation pages have only one primary topic, it seems to make more sense here to have multiple primary topics to aid the reader. This has also been done at iOS for example. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:34, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment of note this has spun out from discussions at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political_NPOV. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:40, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

A matter of procedure, it should be Chinese civilisation as in Hong Kong English. Nightw 06:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why Hong Kong English is the variety of English to use here. Chinese civilization, of which the British colonization of Hong Kong is only a short and small part, is not attached to any national variety of English. The civilization article uses the z, and though Chinese civilization was never a full-fledged article, "Chinese civilization" was created and used from 2004, while "Chinese civilisation" was created in 2007, so we should retain the existing variety. Quigley (talk) 06:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support. With the current configuation, many articles link to this article ("China") about Chinese civilization when they mean "China" as in the "People's Republic of China". It is definitely correct that Chinese civilization is not the primary topic for current usage of the term, and even the assertion that "this is the primary topic for the term in the past" is shaky, as historical articles refer to past Chinese countries and ruling dynasties at least as often as they refer to China in the ethno-cultural sense. This move will help people clarify what they mean when they say "China", and will help people using semi-automated tools to clear up any ambiguity in the future, while retaining the status quo of not favoring either the PRC or ROC viewpoint about who has primacy over the use of "China". Quigley (talk) 17:46, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

  That would support the first part of the move, but otherwise the rationale that the PRC is what people mean when they link here would favor redirecting the base name to the PRC article and linking the dab page from a hatnote there. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. The primary topic is the nation of China, it's history, civilisation, it's people, etcetera. That's what the current article is about, as it should be. There is only one China. As for what government constitutes China, that's disputed, and it's not for Wikipedia to decide. The hatnotes on the current article effectively make it a disambiguation page anyway, but with context. Most readers searching for "China" are only going to want one of three items: Chinese civilisation, the PRC and the ROC, and they get easy access to them all on that page. A ordinary disambiguation page with links and messy explanations just means they're forced to click more. Nightw 18:30, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Its not going to be an ordinary disambiguation page. That isn't what's been suggested at all. What's been suggested is making Chinese civilisation, the PRC and the ROC all "primary" topics linked at the top of the list. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:37, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment see this for a preliminary example. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:41, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

And how is this a better setup than the current China page, which provides easy redirection through hatnotes and content central to the primary topic? How would readers benefit from ordinary links on an otherwise blank page more than they would from arriving at what is essentially an introductory article for a complex subject? Nightw 18:52, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

As it stands, it is currently ambiguous whether editors intend to send readers to the Chinese civilization article or some other (primarily, PRC) use of "China". If [[China]] links to a proper disambiguation page, then editors are forced to clarify whether they mean the PRC, Chinese civilization, or something else. Readers benefit because as a result, less of them will come to the Chinese civilization talk page (as many have done above this discussion) to complain, "why was I sent here when I wanted PRC?" I'm not convinced that Chinese civilization (which is distinct from China the country, by which I mean not only the PRC and the ROC but also the various historical dynasties) is the primary topic for "China". You have asserted this but provided no evidence for it. Quigley (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Ahem. By "readers complaining above this discussion" you mean the confirmed sock and the IP who cites in-depth Wikipedia policy? Editors won't be "forced" to disambiguate their links, and they won't bother. The clerks at WP:WPDAB will clean up after them as per usual. And given that this is currently the 34th most linked-to article, that's a battle that won't be won anytime soon. Nightw 19:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

At least with a disambiguation page you have a better chance of cleaning the links up, it makes it clear that they are broken so people can then pick the most sensible one rather than worrying about whether the editor in question wanted to actually link to this article. Additionally making this a disambiguation page aids people using semi-automated and automated tools to resolve the linking issues.

Additionally going straight to a disambiguation page means that other uses of the word china, such as for porcelain become more prominently linked. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:22, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikiprojects Countries, China, Taiwan and Disambiguation notified. Nightw 18:41, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. China should remain a valid link target, and the topic discussed in the current China article is a reasonable compromise between the vernacular primary topic People's Republic of China and the political tension resulting from that vernacular usage. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC) Struck by JHunterJ (talk) 13:25, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Actually frankly the current China article is a mess. The lead is really poor as it attempts to disambiguate the topics without being a disambiguation page. Additionally this change will keep the Republic of China's position. While that article could be removed after completing this move, it could also be quite easily removed before completing it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:22, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the lead reads fine. It effectively outlines the issue in a way that this, or any list of links on an otherwise blank page, could never hope to. Nightw 20:29, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

You could easily take most of the context from the two bullet points and add them to the disambiguation page. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:33, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

No you can't. Context is established not just through text, but also via wikilinks to articles providing elaborative information to the reader. Under WP:MOSDAB, extra links are forbidden and text is generally restricted to one line per item. Nightw 20:42, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think all the extra links are necessary, but I take your point that they do add some value. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support per Quigley. Kauffner (talk) 23:38, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. To me, this serves visitors best:

• China --> Chinese civilization (because that's what the article is about)
• People's Republic of China --> China (because when people click China, 99% of the time they want People's Republic of China)
• Salt and pepper with hatnotes as you see fit. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:40, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Page hits to People's Republic of China is currently around 10k/day, and China is 13k/day. I'd bet if clicking China went directly to People's Republic of China, then the article on civilization (currently named China) would drop to 2k/day, as visitors hit their mark. As it stands now, the vast majority of people landing on China click the hatnote to People's Republic of China within 5 seconds.

This is not a move request involving the move of the PRC article to China alone, which would most surely be defeated. The reasons for not performing such a move have been discussed to death. —HXL: 聊天 (T) 和 貢獻 (C) 01:00, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

From the last move discussion in 2008, and the WT:NC-CHINA discussion earlier this week, it seems that that formula is too controversial to gain a solid consensus. The current move proposal is a compromise from that but also an improvement in the way of leading readers to what they are searching for. Quigley (talk) 01:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Hear hear. The most sensible course of action if you are pressing for change, even if I do not necessarily support or oppose this proposal. —HXL: 聊天 (T) 和 貢獻 (C) 01:11, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose The wording on the current China page is that "Two states with the name China", which means China currently is already pretty much a disambiguation page. Moving China (disambiguation) to China is just forcing the user to click one more time which is not helpful. T-1000 (talk) 01:20, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose This is a good overview article that covers all China. No need ot have the disambiguation page here. I think this exact proposal failed recently; and similar move requests have failed many times. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 04:05, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Per above.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 07:32, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
• HXL's figures about readership of the two articles show without a shadow of a doubt that this isn't the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term 'China' and therefore it should be a disambiguation page. Even if we assume that everyone is getting to the right article 13k over 10k isn't enough to make this the primary topic. By any reasonable view recentism doesn't apply as the communists have been in power for 60 years. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. "China" is the commonest English language name for the world's biggest country and one which will likely overtake the US. You won't disambiguate United States but it could be United States of Britain! Proud Serbian Chetnik (talk) 09:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Above comment is made by a checkuser confirmed sockpuppet so should be ignored. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:44, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• The above is a good example of the confusion that having an article of this type at this location creates. The writer takes it for granted that "China" refers to the People's Republic. Kauffner (talk) 10:36, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• You think that the article at this location caused the writer to take it for granted that "China" refers to the PRC? That's a stretch. Many English-speaking people take it for granted that "China" refers to the PRC -- that's how the effect communication when talking about the PRC, the speaker says "China" and the listener hears "China" and they both assume PRC, even if they don't know that the country's official name is the People's Republic of China. Similarly they use "Taiwan" when they mean (and possibly don't know) RoC. That's the vernacular usage, and would be the primary topic here except for the controversy behind these particular entities. But having an article of this type does not cause any of that resulting confusion (if there is any confusion). -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• That's not what I meant. I meant that the writer assumes that an article named "China" must be about the PRC, despite the fact that the nominator explains that this is not the case. Kauffner (talk) 12:08, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• 99% of the planet assumes article "China" is going to be about PRC, and then they have to click to the right place. I think all rules should be ignored, and we should serve the visitors. Then solve other hatnotes/dabs etc. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:17, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• But everyone seems to forgetting that, especially in the airline industry, 'China' often points only to the mainland, which is not equal to the PRC. As an additional example, the US government does not treat Hong Kong as just another Chinese city. Please quit citing a number without evidence. —HXL: 聊天 (T) 和 貢獻 (C) 13:03, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support - pretty much sick of this discussion and agreeing mostly with Quigley and Eraserhead. its silly to throw around numbers but it is clear that English uses China to refer to the state, its territory and its population. So we should give them information about that, except the political controversy requires a disambiguation. Sounds like a good compromise to me. Metal.lunchbox (talk) 22:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - If this move were to set a precedent, then many countries in the world should also have a disambiguation page which is ridiculous. Unless someone lives in a cave in deepest Borneo they know about China and Taiwan being two places (for now at least) - China is the People's Republic of China which is why it has a seat at the United Nations and Taiwan doesn't. There are hundreds more arguments against such a move but linking the keyword "China" to a disambiguation page would make Qin Shihuang turn in his mausoleum. My two RMB's worth ► Philg88 ◄ ^talk 07:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

You realise that the China article isn't about the People's Republic of China... -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support - Before voting please read the article China for Chris' sake: the article doesn't deal with China (the country) at all, but rather with Chinese culture. IMHO the most common meaning for the name 'China' is the de facto and de jure the People's Republic of China. Therefore I'm simply going to choose between two different evils: the current status-quo (which carefully avoids giving the name 'China' to the PRC because "the PRC is an evil dictatorship") and a lesser evil in which the name 'China' becomes a disambiguation page. IMHO his move is merely a step into the right direction. Flamarande (talk) 10:33, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

  I have seen what happens after other similar moves, and I can tell you will happen if this article is renamed Chinese civilization. People who are looking for PRC article will no longer click on it, and it will gradually disappear in the result rankings for "China". So the practical effect is the same making the term "China" lead to the PRC article (assuming that is fact the article that people typing in the term "China" want to read). Kauffner (talk) 12:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Somebody will verify these results in a couple of months/years and make the obvious conclusions; he/she will make a move proposal of 'China' towards 'China (disambiguation)' and 'People's Republic of China' towards 'China'. I already know that I'm going to vote in favour. Flamarande (talk) 18:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

As has been stated repeatedly, the second notion is too controversial to have even a weak consensus. I assure you that that move request simplifying the name will be swiftly defeated as was the case many times in the past (you can go look for yourself). This is good enough of a compromise as it is...anything further will be flagrant violation of policy and a major hassle. Just think how many [[China]] links there are that have a pre-1949 context. —HXL: 聊天 (T) 和 貢獻 (C) 18:48, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support (replacing my earlier !vote) as an improvement towards the goal, per Kauffner and (I believe) the requester. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:25, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support I agree with points above that in current vernacular China refers to the PRC. In fact most (if not all) of the citizens of the ROC I have met balk at being called Chinese, and insist that they are actually Taiwanese. At the moment I've seen many times when "China" is linked in a list of countries by wikipedia editors and IP's, a link clearly meant for the PRC. If such links now lead to a disambiguation page, they would be easily picked up on and fixed. In the end, I'm fairly sure that when people search "China" they aren't searching for Chinese civilization. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support At some point a primary topic discussion should happen. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• Where is it from to get silly Idea of making Civilisation stand in for modern Nation. Egypt? [[Greece]?? 1949 is no bright Line for China or 1947 for India. Just admit this Civilisation Arrangement is KMT Propaganda. You hate CCP. Admit. People want to read about China here like all other Nation.203.184.138.131 (talk) 23:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support (with reservation). Most of the sources use China as the common name for the PRC. STSC (talk) 11:15, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, but you (and others before you) have apparently misread the proposal, which is to make China a disambiguation page. This won't affect the PRC's article. Nightw 11:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

My point is: I don't support using the current China article solely for Chinese civilization because it's the common name for PRC; and I support the use of a disambiguation page for Wiki readers to choose what they want (including the PRC article). STSC (talk) 12:01, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Nightw 16:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support Although it doesn't save visitors the extra click to get to what they are probably looking for (PRC), it's a step in the right direction. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

*Oppose to the highest degree. The biggest proponent to refer the PRC as China is due to WP:Common Name but the biggest reason why the PRC article is where is it and the China article is about the Chinese nation since antiquity to the present day is due to an even more important wikipedia policy of WP:NPOV. In no way can wikipedia afford to move away from such a core policy as to actually deviate from being a neutral entity by designating the PRC as the sole government of "China". As an overseas Chinese, I am appalled by this suggestion. Such a move has been suggested numerous times before, and repeatedly rejected due to the very reason of this being a huge minefield, and the same outcome should prevail today regardless of the number of votes. And the China article is no precedent when it comes to sensitive topics, especially of divided nations and disputed name usage. Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are also treated in this manner, just as Taiwan and the Republic of China are named as such.--Huaiwei (talk) 17:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• • Oppose. I just realised I was too jumpy and misread the proposal. Still, I would prefer the articles remain where they are, for the opening line "China is seen variously as an ancient civilization extending over a large area in East Asia, a nation and/or a multinational entity." is quite apt and serves its purpose well, and is also a visible reminder that the Chinese civilisation did not end in 1950.--Huaiwei (talk) 17:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• We are only proposing to move this page on the Chinese nation/civilisation to 'Chinese civilization' and moving the disambiguation page titled 'China' to [[China]]. A move from PRC to [[China]] is NOT in the works here. Please consider this...even though I oppose the move from PRC to China as strongly as you do, I have not voted on this proposal. —HXL: 聊天 (T) 和 貢獻 (C) 17:27, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support as a first step to getting Wikipedia to recognise what is obviously the primary, unambiguous meaning of "China", i.e., the People's Republic of China. Unfortunately, editors still stuck in the Cold War/Chinese Civil War will block action to rectify that. However, at least one should allow readers to see a DAB page upon typing "China" rather than the mealymouthed gobbledygook ("China is...an ancient civilization extending over a large area in East Asia, a nation and/or a multinational entity".) they are confronted with now. —  AjaxSmack  22:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose – Both the PRC and ROC have never agreed to call their shared-past-country as "Chinese civilization". Benjwong (talk) 00:57, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Why does Wikipedia care about that? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• Support move of [[China (disambiguation)]] to [[China]]. Not sure about the other half of the proposal because "Chinese civilization" seems an inadequate title. --Tesscass (talk) 20:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose redirecting PRC to China is not neutral, as it imply the ROC is illegitmate. Therefore, the next best thing is to have China be a general article like the current setup. 159.83.4.148 (talk) 21:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

• Redirecting the PRC to China is not the proposal. Please read the move request again and reconsider your opposition. Quigley (talk) 05:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
• some people here definitely need to read WP:POVTITLE. mgeo talk 09:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• And some people need to remember what this proposal is about or realise the overriding power of consensus. —Xiaoyu: 聊天 (T) 和 贡献 (C) 13:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Not really needed. PRC can't be here because of NPOV, and it's one click to reach the PRC article. 76.173.173.24 (talk) 22:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC) — 76.173.173.24 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Redirecting the PRC to China is not the proposal. Please read the move request again and reconsider your opposition. Quigley (talk) 05:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• I presume the opposes like this one will be ignored when the discussion is closed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose having a commonly used term like 'China' go to a disambiguation page is unacceptable, especially when there is a good page there now. Commonly used terms only redirect to disambiguation pages if there are several unrelated commonly used meanings for the term (see Compact, for instance). LK (talk) 08:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
  • The issue is that the current article clearly isn't the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term - see for example the number of opposes that assume that China must be about the PRC only in this move discussion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Since you agree that there is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, then according to WP:DISAMBIG, that primary topic (and not a disambiguation) must occupy the page. If the article currently doesn't reflect the primary topic, then the article should be changed accordingly. This is not an argument for replacing the article with a disambiguation page. LK (talk) 05:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
      • There is a primary topic, but its primacy is difficult to measure right now, because "China" is both an article about Chinese civilization (which is not the primary topic, but a compromise for "NPOV") and a de facto disambiguation page. As a result, page hits to People's Republic of China is currently around 10k/day, and China is 13k/day—no clear primary topic, because of the ambiguous dual-use of the current "China" page. Once these different uses are separated by the move request, and the new usage data comes from time, many of these amazing arguments we see here: "[C]licking China should lead to the Republic of China first, because that came first", will crumble in the face of the evidence. Even if you don't agree with me on what the primary topic is, you should agree that this move will help answer the question. Quigley (talk) 06:13, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
        • I'm not entirely convinced that the PRC is the clear primary topic for the term and it may well be that there is no primary topic for the term China, but what is certainly true is that this page is not clearly the primary topic. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. Both governments say there is only one China, and all world governments adhere to this policy. This article should be about that one China. Rennell435 (talk) 13:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
  • And what "one China" is that? The pre-1912 China? Because basically that's what this article is about. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Er, no it isn't. The article discusses what all world governments recognise as China, its etymology, geography, it traces its history from prehistoric times to the present, explores everything from the climate in Taiwan to the Olympics in Beijing. Just one example: see the difference between the Geography of China and the Geography of the People's Republic of China, or see Palestine and Western Sahara for other cases. Rennell435 (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
      • But even so it still isn't the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term. Its hit-count is basically the same as the PRC page, which is what in a modern context is commonly referred to as China. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The proposed name is a poor choice anyway. Just what exactly would the subpages then be called? Geography of Chinese civilization? List of rivers in the Chinese civilization? Nightw 21:11, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - It's rather unclear what the exact topics would be in the proposed disambiguation page for China. Please clarify to avoid further misunderstanding. STSC (talk) 15:18, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The disambiguation page exists now. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

It would however have the PRC, the ROC (Taiwan) and Chinese civilisation as "common" topics listed at the top. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree with "China commonly refers to ROC (Taiwan)" because it just isn't true. What's the exact wording for these "common" topics? STSC (talk) 19:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The harm of that isn't particularly great given you need a disambiguation page anyway to differentiate between the PRC and the civilisation and that avoids having to discuss whether the ROC is worthy as well. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:01, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Although I support the principle of using a disambiguation page, it must be carefully constructed through consensus, e.g., I would list the ROC (Taiwan) as one of the links but not as a common topic as PRC because it gives the impression that there are two Chinas. STSC (talk) 02:32, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

... Um, there is. Nightw 21:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

... No, there isn't. STSC (talk) 00:05, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipeda doesn't have to stick to officiated fantasies. In reality there are two. In official policy, there is one. And as someone said above, this page effectively describes that theoretical "one China" whilst also being way better at disambiguating than any list of links ever could. Nightw 10:37, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• Suggestion. I suggest the China disambiguation page to be based on the model of Congo disambiguation page. The ROC can be listed with the period of 1911-1972; during that period the ROC was representing China until the PRC took over their UN seat. STSC (talk) 00:36, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Being in the UN is not a requirement for being a country, so that's definitely POV. T-1000 (talk) 03:57, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

These kinds of changes require a consensus, which cannot be achieved if we get off-topic. We can quibble over whether or not there are two Chinas and which came first another day. Wikipedia guidelines clearly call for a disambiguation page in the case of a title being associated with more than one topic. "China" is obviously such a case. Making "China" into a disambiguation page leaves us with the issue of what to do with the article currently at "China". "Chinese civilization" is an unambiguous common English term for the topic. Please limit discussion to comments directly related to this proposal. If you support or oppose the proposal please state clearly. Metal.lunchbox (talk) 04:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. My reading of WP:Disambiguation is that a disambiguation page should occupy the main page only if the term commonly refers to several unrelated topics. The situation is here is similar to that at Christianity. There as well, an argument could be made that there are several topics which share the same name, and that a disambiguation page should point to Roman catholic, Protestant, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, etc. However, there is consensus that a coherent concept called 'Christianity' exists, and that it includes these many contentious groups. A similar situation played out at Libertarianism, where some editors argued that only certain groups were 'libertarian' with the others falsely using that name. LK (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Christianity is almost always used to refer to the religion as a whole, whereas China is very frequently used to just refer to the People's Republic of China. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:22, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

There are many evangelicals who would not accept that these groups are Christian: Roman catholics (popists), Eastern Orthodox (who?), Mormons, Universalists, Unitarians, Shakers, etc. Just because a large number (perhaps even a majority) of people do not consider some groups as Christian does not mean that the concept of Christianity does not include these groups. Similarly, just because many use China to refer to PRC does not mean that China does not include what others consider to also be part of China. LK (talk) 10:00, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

With regards to your first point are any of those views not WP:FRINGE? With regards to the second that's why there is a suggestion of having a disambiguation page. The fact that people use China to just refer to the PRC only shows that this page doesn't meet WP:PRIMARYTOPIC it doesn't mean the other views are invalid. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

regardless of what a few Evangelical Christians think about the term "Christian". The term "China" does not unambiguously refer to the topic of this article, "Chinese civilization". It is normal in English to use the term "China" to refer to other things, especially the PRC. Because of this the reader should be directed to a disambiguation page. Metal.lunchbox (talk) 17:49, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current article, with its existing hatnotes to People's Republic of China, Republic of China and China (disambiguation), does an excellent job of dealing with an awesome collection of POVs. Hard to imagine a better solution, and this proposal certainly ain't it. Andrewa (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Other than this article not meeting WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term given the high readership of the People's Republic of China, and this move not changing how the ROC/PRC POV's are handled in any substantial way I completely agree that the current position is a good solution, however those concerns are rather substantial.
    • Disagree strongly re primary topic. China existed long before the PRC, and many things long regarded as typically chinese are alien to the PRC, and many who call themselves and are widely identified as Chinese have and wish no connection with the PRC. Stepping back from the POVs, China is clearly a much more general topic, which includes the PRC as a subset. It's not a matter of disambiguation at all, so the question of primary topic doesn't arise. The distinction between the PRC and Chinese porcelain, for example, is one of disambiguation, but that's a different issue. This point is also discussed below. Andrewa (talk) 18:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
      • Sorry but you can see from the posts above that some users are confused and assume that the PRC must be what this article is about. The PRC is exclusively referred to as China by the media in a modern context, and thus it is a legitimate target for someone clicking on the link China. That the civilisation is important too is true, but it isn't the only primary use case for the word China and thus why a disambiguation page is appropriate. People can quite reasonably click on a link to the word China and either want to read about the civilisation or read about the modern nation state commonly known as China, taking them to a page on the civilisation directly is confusing.
        • Agree with much of this but the last sentence does not follow IMO. And confused? I'm skeptical. Didn't they know that China is older than the PRC? Of course they do. They may not agree with the article name, we already know that some strongly disagree with it for POV reasons and that's not a breach of WP:AGF because they're quite open about it. But that's hardly a confused state of mind, just the opposite. Andrewa (talk) 21:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
      • This move request also keeps the POV issues in balance by keeping the ROC's de-facto equal status on Wikipedia intact by giving it a direct link at the top of the disambiguation page. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:59, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
        • Agree that weight is not a problem with the proposal, but still think the proposed move is totally unnecessary. What should happen instead is that this article should be developed as an overview article of all of China, the area, civilization and the various states... and ROC will be a very small footnote in all of this, so it's certainly not pandaring to that POV. The weasily lead sentence needs work, for a start. Andrewa (talk) 21:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
          • .See below. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
  • If anything the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for 'China' is the People's Republic of China due to that being a WP:VITAL article, and the civilisation and the Republic of China not meeting that criteria.
    • Quite apart from the irrelevance of that particular guideline (see above), this suggests that inclusion in the vital article list is one of the key criteria for determining primary topic... has that proposal been discussed? Where? The list doesn't even seem to be mentioned in the current guideline, and should be prominently described there if it's to be used in this way. Andrewa (talk) 18:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
      • See below. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:59, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Currently this means that the PRC is almost certainly the only WP:VITAL article not at its common name, although this move request does at least make a small compromise towards that position. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:32, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Again, this seems to propose a role for the vital article list not currently documented, or at least not well documented. Andrewa (talk) 18:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
      • To quote the guideline "An exception may be appropriate when recentism and educational value are taken into account, especially if one of these topics is a vital article." - looks pretty clear to me. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:59, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
        • Quite right, not sure how I missed that! There remains the question of the relevance of this guideline. Andrewa (talk) 21:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
          • The relevance of the guideline is that it makes it completely clear that the civilisation page isn't the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the name 'China'. The reason I think this move is worthwhile is that if someone links something to China when they mean to link to the PRC we cannot easily change the link to point at the right article. Trying to keep this article here and not use a disambiguation page where it clearly isn't the primary usage of the term seems pretty silly and confusing to our readers who aren't interested in reading about the history of China, but instead want to know about the modern nation state - which after all is the WP:VITAL article.
          • You could make the arguments you have made here about India, but in that case the article at India is primarily about the modern nation state and not about its historical position, and that's how every other country in the world is generally organised - this move request doesn't go to that position, but at least it means the modern nation state is linked with more than a hatnote on an unrelated article. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• As someone said above, this article isn't about the history of China. In fact, history is only one section. Have you actually read the article, Eraserhead? And just for the record, Republic of China is as much a vital article as People's Republic of China. So I'm confused with your arguments. Nightw 20:40, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support since we apparently cannot achieve consensus about the primary topic of "China", making China a dab page is what we must do per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. That requires moving the article currently at China elsewhere, and Chinese civilization seems like a reasonable descriptive title that meets the principal naming criteria at WP:TITLE. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
• Weak support. I have always hated that China isn't the article about the People's Republic of China, or at least a redirect to it. It's clearly the primary topic for the term "China". I bet that at least 9 out of 10 times when people search for the term "China" they are looking for the article about the PRC. If people want to read about the Republic of China they will write "Taiwan"(which btw wont get them to their intended target either). And if people want to read about the history of the Chinese civiliaztion, they will probably write something "history of Chinese civilization", as it would seem obvious to any outsider that just "China" would(/should) lead them to an article about the PRC. Nowhere in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines about article naming does it say anything about that we should take regional politics into account when naming articles. This to me seems like a clear case where trying to please POV editors detracts from the experience for regular readers of the encyclopedia. This suggested move does not fix the problem, but if it can act as a stepping stone to get article naming which is in accordance with Wikipedia policy and guidelines, then I am for it.TheFreeloader (talk) 00:14, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, Merging PRC and China makes China "just PRC", therefore implying that either the ROC is an illegitmate gov't holding on the PRC land, or (if the ROC is legitmate) Taiwan is not part China. Can you actually address the issues instead of what you hate? T-1000 (talk) 02:40, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

lower case china

Is there a way to create a link for lower case china, as in fine china, to go straight to the disambiguation page or straight to fine china? Right now, lower case china also goes to the Chinese civilization. ContinentalAve (talk) 14:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

No. The software is coded so that 'asdfghjkl' (for example) is wholly equal to 'Asdfghjkl'. There are no re-directs involved, so this cannot be changed. —HXL: 聊天 (T) 和 貢獻 (C) 14:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

You need to ask the bureaucrats to change the settings on MediaWiki for Wikipedia to do that. Wiktionary allows such distinctions, but Wikipedia does not. I don't think they'll ever change the settings on MediaWiki to allow lowercase/uppercase first letter distinction though, too many people enter only lowercase letters into the searchbox, so too many people would get to the wrong page. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Clicking China today

It seems, regardless of the topic above, that people keep bringing up the notion that China should bring visitors to People's Republic of China.

Please don't make me read tons of previous discussions to find out why this isn't so. It seems like commons sense that it should be, and I don't like getting entangled in mazes of circular logic.

The vast majority of editors here want this. The vast amount of clicks on China are intended for People's Republic of China. Can't we just do that? Then, all the other hatnote and dab page issues become simple. We're here to serve the visitors, right? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:48, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The matter of concern is not so much on the airy conjectures you have mentioned but the political implications of such a move, which I will not repeat. —HXL: 聊天 (T) 和 貢獻 (C) 13:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Logically, China should be redirected to the PRC but we have to accommodate the ROC's view, so a disambiguation page would be a comprise for the time being. STSC (talk) 13:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

More importantly we have to accommodate the Chinese civilisations right to the name. If I go to a museum and go to the "China" section they are talking about the civilisation not the PRC. Given that we may as well accommodate the ROC's view as well.-- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, okay. I didn't consider that. I just kept thinking only that this is an encyclopedia where visitors search what they want to get to and that's it. I didn't realize so much political correctness should influence that. Sorry to bother everyone. I'll just drop it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:01, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Logically "China" should cover all Chinese states that could be called China, as an overview article, while the specific state should be named specifically. All countries should also be done thusly. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 04:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Ideally, the China page should be set up like the one about China by CIA Factbook; and then it should include a link to the Republic of China (Taiwan) in the lead section. STSC (talk) 12:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Why should it be like the CIA? The CIA doesn't have a NPOV policy, it follows what the US recognizes: PRC. T-1000 (talk) 01:21, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Most of the sources also recognize the PRC. While the CIA does not even mention the ROC (but USA sells arms to ROC), we would at least acknowledge the existence of ROC in the China page. STSC (talk) 02:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Not only that. But the longest existing "modern" China is the ROC. PRC has just celebrated its 60th anniversary, while ROC is on its way to celebrating the 100th anniversary at the end of this year. No matter how long PRC has been around, ROC has been around longer. 100 > 60 you can even stretch it, and say ROC has been around almost twice as long as the PRC. Possibly clicking China should lead to the Republic of China first, because that came first. Benjwong (talk) 02:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

We Wiki editors rely on what the sources tell us (Non-neutral but common names). STSC (talk) 03:03, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Well's it's a good thing the that section gave examples, because that sections is clearly talking about offensive terms, not political disputes that Wikipedia is forbidden to take a side in. T-1000 (talk) 03:28, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, the section specially refers to "descriptive title created by Wikipedia editors.", and China is clearly not one of them. T-1000 (talk) 03:43, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

The spirit of the guideline is to follow the sources in general. Wikipedia would only reflect China as the common name for the PRC in the sources. STSC (talk) 04:02, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

It is also common for sources to use "China" to refer to pre-PRC. "China defeated Japan in 1945", this China is not referring to PRC. T-1000 (talk) 04:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

It is common for sources to use "France" to refer to pre-French Fifth Republic (1958-present). "Germany defeated France in 1940", this France is not referring to FFR. Quigley (talk) 06:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Those examples given were used in a historical context; it's undeniable that China commonly refers to the PRC and rarely refers to the ROC in present days. The reality is the PRC representing China at international level at present, and most of the sources reflect that reality. STSC (talk) 08:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Then it goes back to the beginning point. The ROC still exists, while the France that Germany defeated doesn't anymore. Furthermore, Historical usage is also common. T-1000 (talk) 01:25, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of the validity of arguments for or against China=>PRC, consensus for that idea is muddled at best. A stronger consensus would be needed to make a change with such strong political overtones. The less-dramatic change proposed above would allow us to make some progress on this issue and re-evaluate the consensus for redirecting China to PRC in a less confusing context. If we discuss one major change at a time then we might get somewhere, otherwise we just get a never-ending and chaotic debate. China=>PRC is a distraction from the current proposal. Metal.lunchbox (talk) 18:57, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

See above for some discussion on this. Just to summarise, I don't think the issue of primary topic even arises, because the distinction between this article and one on the PRC, or this and the ROC, are in neither case one of disambiguation, but rather of a subset/superset relationship. The issue of Chinese porcelain vs ROC vs PRC is one of disambiguation, but not this one. What we have is currently an overview article which should have {{main}} links to the various nations who are (strongly POV) claimants to the title China (country) or China (national state), etc.. And it's a very good, NPOV solution. Andrewa (talk) 18:35, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

You can argue its a "subset/superset issue" but the problem is that the term China is commonly used to refer to the PRC in a modern context and the civilisation in an older context, and thus disambiguation is appropriate as there isn't a clear article that our readers expect when they search for China. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:02, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. The article these readers now get to is on exactly the topic they are seeking. If (and I still think this is a disingenious claim) they really didn't know that China existed before the PRC, then the topic is broader than they thought and they have learned something. Hey, didn't they come here for information? That's our whole purpose here.

This article does and should provide information on the PRC, and links to more detailed articles both on the PRC, its history etc., and on other aspects of China, as befits such an immense topic. Andrewa (talk) 21:45, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

If you want to do that then the right way to go about it is to include more history in the PRC article like other modern nation states do (e.g. India) as well as the in depth information about the country which they want to read about. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Possibly, but this discussion is about this article. Should this article be at China, undisambiguated? I think it's a good topic and correctly named.

Or do you mean that the PRC article should go to this title? Not a chance. Nor should it.

India is a similar controversial discussion which comes up from time to time, but with not quite the same issues, so it's not a good model for what should happen here. Andrewa (talk) 19:31, 15 July 2011 (UTC)