Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elements

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used

FA	A	GA	B	C	Start	Stub	FL	List	Category	Disambig	Draft	File	Portal	Project	Redirect	Template	NA	???	Total
29	0	97	104	119	93	35	0	171	305	3	3	116	1	22	3,893	227	9	1	5,228

We should get back to article work

A seven nation army couldn't hold me back...

For too much time now we have been debating endlessly over our element categorization scheme instead of achieving 2011 productivity levels. I guess I could start by finishing the half-finished (or more; often only a few subsections are missing) GA's I was working on – Np, Bh, Fl... Double sharp (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I resumed work on Np at User:Thingg/neptunium (I was collaborating with Thingg on it in October and November 2013, and stopped with six sections remaining.) Now two sections are left. Double sharp (talk) 08:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

@Double sharp: That's what we're doing! I'm bulldozing through fluorine, there are other monkeys at their typewriters, we're getting things done, finally! Princess Parcly Taxel 02:42, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

great! (F has been sitting there for too long.) After that I think we could get your copper to FA? (I was thinking for a long time about an iron FA too.) Double sharp (talk) 08:13, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Aha, aha. The reference infrastructure for fluorine is pretty much done, I'm just copyediting, but copper may have a few holes here and there. The 29th element will thus be a multi-editor project. Princess Parcly Taxel 02:17, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

We finished Np, put it in mainspace, and GAN'd it. Double sharp (talk) 15:48, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

The GAN has passed (reviewed by Parcly Taxel). Double sharp (talk) 07:57, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

@Double sharp: Now get up and call everyone to gang up on the fluorine FAC – it is even more precious than gold! Parcly Taxel 01:26, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Alkali metal is getting there too, and was started around the same time (2011). Double sharp (talk) 11:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

The new chemistry of the elements

A Royal Society of Chemistry page to keep on an eye on, noting that, "Recorded audio of the presentations will be available on this page after the event and the papers will be published in a future issue of Philosophical Transactions A." Topics include: "Evolution of the modern Periodic Table"; "On the occurence of metallic character in the Periodic Table of the elements"; "Chemistry of the superheavy elements"; "The alkali metals: 200 years of discovery" ('An interesting feature is that a single compound can contain both M+ and M-'); "Chemistry of Ag(2+): a cornucopia of pecularities"; "A Periodic Table of metal oxides".
Sandbh (talk) 01:25, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Looking forward to the audio being put up online! Double sharp (talk) 12:32, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

From the Scerri abstract: "If time permits I will also touch on the question of the placement of certain elements (H, He, La, Ac, Lu, Lr) and the question of whether it is meaningful to seek an optimal periodic table". DePiep (talk) 14:07, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Takes a lot of time to rewind the tape. -DePiep (talk) 01:22, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I still don't see where the recorded audio is. Am I missing something?

(I see Professor Martyn Poliakoff CBE of The Periodic Table of Videos spoke at the event on 12 April!) Double sharp (talk) 15:43, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Put a hatnote at the top of Other metal?

'Other' in the title means 'other than alkali, alkaline-earth, lanthanide, actinide, and transition metals'.

This page is about the metals in groups 13-15. Not to be confused with alkali, alkaline-earth, lanthanide, actinide, and transition metals.

This page is about the metals not otherwise classified as alkali, alkaline-earth, lanthanide, actinide, or transition metals

This page is about metals other than alkali, alkaline-earth, lanthanide, actinide, or transition metals

Putting a {{hatnote}} like one of these at the top of the article gives an opportunity to explain a rather clumsy and ambiguous article title. This is a very nonstandard use of hatnotes, but the need for something like this has been noted in category space using {{distinguish}}. All in all, I think something like this might be a helpful as an interim band-aid until a consensus is built to use some other term (pun intended) for this group. YBG (talk) 05:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. WP:HATNOTE says that hatnotes are to help the reader answering Am I on the right page?. That is disambiguation & detailing. That is not about explaining the article topic again, or other information from the lead. Btw, there is no building of consensus at the moment. -DePiep (talk) 06:13, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Isn't our use of "other metal" already covered in the first sentence of the article? I note however that Sandbh's sandbox contains a draft for a "post-transition metal" article: I think this should replace our current article once it is finished. (Much of the content is common to both articles.) Double sharp (talk) 06:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

re Double sharp: Sort of in there indeed, and I think whatever the hatnote here purports could or should be in there, not above. My understanding too is that the general line is clear (a move to do; agreement on this a few sections up), and that Sandbh is working on a proposal. -DePiep (talk) 06:46, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, you've convinced me. As always, you've given a sound, reasoned and winsome response to an off-the-wall suggestion. I look forward to the promotion of S&bh's sandbox. YBG (talk) 13:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

For me this? Thanks! Makes it worth spending care & patience on talkpages. -DePiep (talk) 13:27, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm also looking forward to when Sandbh's sandbox goes live – it'll probably finally put to rest all the complaints about the names we've previously used for this element category, such as "poor metals" and now "other metals". Double sharp (talk) 13:46, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

32- vs. 18-column: placement of La or Lu under Y

Given previous discussions, some of us may be interested in participating in this thread: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemistry#Wiki Interactive Periodic Table needs to be consistent with standard periodic table. Double sharp (talk) 16:32, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

{{Infobox element}} checks

At the moment I an running some checks on template:Infobox element (our glorious, unbeatable and everlasting one).

I am triangular checking the parameters: those known in {{infobox element}} vs those used in Category:Periodic table infobox templates vs those in infobox element/doc. We expect all those are in agreement.

Infobox pages of interest (that is: with questions arising) are listed at Category:Element infobox templates that need attention, but no guarantee is given on any logic for categorising, at any time (ask me or trust me).

So far, I have no urgent questions to WP:ELEMENT members. But this is why your watchlist is so crowded with my name. Later more. -DePiep (talk) 00:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

No devastating changes. Removed some unused parameters (like "work function="). Maybe check your favorite element infobox history. -DePiep (talk) 23:20, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

• I am removing input values like this from a few dozen infoboxes:

|Van der Waals radius=[[1 E-10 m|210]]

They produced this:

Van der Waals radius	210 pm

Writing a value this way is confusion (at best). Don't know what that unit link(!) actually says, related to the picometre already present. If we want to show the metre factor, it should be something like "210 pm (1 × 10^-12 m)" "210 pm (210 × 10^-12 m)"?). For now: not. -DePiep (talk) 13:23, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Notability of as yet unsynthesized superactinides

DePiep's above post brings to my mind a possible test for the notability of undiscovered elements: if you can actually fill up the infobox with predictions from cited sources to as much of an extent as you can for known transactinides, the element could be notable enough for an article. (Although perhaps a section in another article would do the job just as well, so you'd have to decide on a case-by-case basis.) Double sharp (talk) 02:40, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it can be done for E125 (see this paper), E164 (Penneman, Fricke, etc.), E165, E166, E171 and E172 (Fricke, Hoffman et al.), E184 (Penneman, Fricke). If E125 can be recreated, maybe there is an argument for E123 simply for the unbroken series to E127, and then some scattered notable elements in the late eighth period, ninth period, and tenth period. Double sharp (talk) 05:20, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps a case could be made though for not having any synthetic predicted element articles at all (maybe E119 and E120 could be spared as having synthesis experiments in progress), and keeping all the content in articles like period 8 element, period 9 element, period 10 element, electron configurations of the elements (data page) (and I think the post-118 content of that should be duplicated in the period articles). In particular, the tables in those articles successfully summarize nearly all the info we have on these elements, with a few exceptions: E119, E120, and E121 (and for the latter it is just the first ionization energy, which I could easily include in running text). After all, the island of stability and proposed primordial SHEs aren't specific to any one element (such as the poster child, E126); primordial Lv, E124, E126, and E127 were all proposed at some point. Especially since we don't actually know exactly where the island is yet (although we have made multiple mutually contradicting guesses), it seems better not to keep the info on articles on individual elements.

Thus I would propose here that only elements 1 to 120 should have articles for now, and heavier elements should redirect to their respective period articles (like unhexquadium currently does to Period 8 element#Transition metals). Articles would then be created for heavier elements when synthesis experiments restart and they become better characterized (ideally as well-characterized as the as yet undiscovered E119 or E120). Double sharp (talk) 15:01, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps all of the periods may not need to have their own individual articles for similar reasons. Double sharp (talk) 12:47, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I have now mentioned this to Kwamikagami, who had proposed a something similar for the periods before. Double sharp (talk) 12:59, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the point of having half-baked articles on the periods. I suppose if someone wants to put in the work, it doesn't hurt anything, but last I checked only period 1 was developed into an actual article. All the rest said we don't care enough about chemical elements to bother.

IMO the article on predicted elements is probably a more informative way of presenting the info than individual articles. Articles on predicted elements should IMO only be split off when they reach the level where we have enough for an informative article, based on WP's basic notability and article guidelines. — kwami (talk) 19:45, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Q for Double sharp. Here, first you say E121 and up should be in their period articles (say, OK), then you say these periods don't need an article (say, OK). But where will they go then? Any suggestions for a super-article then? My simplest view for this is there is a "PT extension" article that covers the lot, and E119, E120 have their own article too. That? (Let me repeat that the naming pattern "period 8 element" is a horror, and plain wrong class naming. The "Brasil football team" is not "Brasil football team players"). -DePiep (talk) 20:51, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that was what I was thinking off. E121 and up should probably be in extended periodic table, which would merge the contents of period 8 element, period 9 element, and period 10 element. (I'm using these names only because this is where the articles currently are at: I agree with you that "period 8" is the subject and not "period 8 element", since we are discussing the period as a whole and not just each individual element.)

I think that the period articles are pointless. None of them cover anything that is most relevant to the period and nothing else. I've included details on my thoughts of the period 1 element and period 2 element articles below.

Period 1 is a strange article, only covering H and He. This means that there are no horizontal trends to speak of, and therefore the whole article becomes just a summary of H followed by a summary of He, saying nothing about the period itself other that there are no horizontal trends to speak of. The duet rule already is covered in the article on the octet rule, and isn't even solely for period 1: it also holds for Li, which always loses an electron to form the stable Li⁺ ion with the stable 1s² electron configuration of He. The article then goes on to talk about the placements of H and He in the periodic table: but while H is indeed a chemical oddball, He is so similar to the noble gases that you're going to have a lot of explaining to do if you put it elsewhere. So this is really only about H, and should be in the hydrogen article. I don't get the point of this: it may be a GA, but it doesn't really say anything.

Period 2 indeed has conclusive trends, but these trends hold across every period. It being the least metallic period is rather trivial: and the fact that some of the period 2 elements have the most extreme properties of their groups are because they are the first elements in their respective groups. And Ne being the most inert noble gas instead of He is really a subject for the noble gas article. And then the article provides a blurb on each element, neglecting the period as a whole. What is the point? I'm seriously doubting if an article can really be written about an entire period. I think periods 1 to 7 should all redirect to period (periodic table) (which BTW needs to be updated to our current "option 10" colour scheme).

Even period 8 element had to be subdivided into three regions: 8s, 5g+6f+8p_1/2, and 7d, to create a coherent article. The problem is that each section of the period is too individualistic in character, so that the article reads like it is a cobbled-together merge of three others. And it abruptly pauses the story, as 9s, 9p_1/2, and 8p_3/2 must wait until period 9, and that means that the story of the alkali metal–noble gas range from E119 to E172 is abruptly curtailed. Also, this division of period 8 and period 9 uses the Fricke–Greiner–Waber model of the extended periodic table, instead of Pyykkö's which divides the periods up differently. Keeping all the content together neatly sidesteps the issue. Articles can be split off when they have enough info, just as Kwamikagami suggests: at the moment I think only E119 and E120 would qualify.

Another set of articles I'd be happy to see go are the articles on the blocks (I think I've mentioned before how I dislike the block concept, but that's not the point here). The s-block splits cleanly into groups 1 and 2, and suffers the exact same problem as the period articles. The f-block splits cleanly into the lanthanides and actinides; the d-block splits cleanly into its constituent groups. The p-block is perhaps interesting in the trend from metals through metalloids to nonmetals, but this is more of a subject for the metalloid article.

I almost think a good test for deciding whether or not an article is a good idea is to ask "Does [insert your favourite chemistry text, e.g. Holleman & Wiberg, Greenwood & Earnshaw, etc.] group these elements together in one chapter or section?" (I think this allows all the s-, p-, and d-block groups, but none of the periods.) If they could write a chapter covering those elements coherently, so can Wikipedia. If they couldn't, Wikipedia probably can't either.

P.S. An interesting situation comes with pnictogen and chalcogen. WP treats them as synonymous with "group 15" and "group 16", but many chemistry texts exclude N and O respectively, as they are too different from the elements under them to be treated well together. But I think it can work this way, especially if you continually contrast nitrogen with the other pnictogens, or oxygen with the other chalcogens. The strongest argument, I think, is that IUPAC states that N is a pnictogen and that O is a chalcogen. But I would not oppose deviating from this and following general usage instead. Double sharp (talk) 06:31, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Per the above, I have redirected the blocks to block (periodic table). Anyone who feels that I am mistaken and that the articles may be further developed may of course revert these edits. Double sharp (talk) 12:33, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Merged period 8 element, period 9 element, and period 10 element to extended periodic table. Double sharp (talk) 13:33, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)re 06:31. About removing the 121+ element pages & redirect them to one page, as mentioned, I can understand and I trust judgements here on non-notability of these elements. (Comes to mind, the existing redirects from all these Un-* elements could use a check. Their target page(s?) have been unclear a long time). That suprepage on SHE's then better have good stuff. 13:14, 12 July 2014‎ DePiep (signed late: DePiep (talk) 09:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC))

How is extended periodic table now? (This is the current superpage I'm using.) Double sharp (talk) 13:36, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, I don't blame you for using the name "period 8 element", it is correctly in-pattern. I meant to say that back them, at RM proposal time, there was little support from WP:ELEM inhabitants. These even did not involve IUPAC ;-).

About redirecting "period 1" topic: not convinced yet. Other than the 120+ elements, this is an existing feature, and a reader might well ask: what is that period actually? Today the article might be filled with wrong info (the element descriptions), but that content could be changed. I myself am still to learn more of these shell peculiarities, and I better not start with say period 6. (About the recent block-redirect, no opinion now). -DePiep (talk) 13:13, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

It's not wrong info: it's just not relevant. It's more about H and He than it is about period 1 as a whole. It's like having an article on "lead and bismuth".

Redirected the elements past 120. I will hold off on periods 1–7 for the moment. Double sharp (talk) 13:33, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Given the above, periods 1–7 have been redirected. Double sharp (talk) 10:10, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Yep. Clears the neighborhood, and invites & concentrates editergy to make that period article a good/better one. Now there is to answer: for all the links to e.g. "period 4" (especially in PT templates), what to do:

1. use [[Period (periodic table)#Period 4|period 4]] = period 4 (the #section link now functions)
2. unlink them, just say "4"
3. keep old link to Period 4 element (redirect then)
4. link to plain Period (periodic table)

I prefer #1. -DePiep (talk) 22:25, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Elements that should be GA or FA but are not of that quality

Just some names of very important elements that I'm throwing out, in case anyone is interested.

• Carbon – a weak GA.
• Nitrogen
• All the period 3 elements (except argon). I think R8R has plans for Al.
• Calcium
• Iron – I have wanted to do this one for a long time
• Copper – this is already a GA, but should be an FA IMHO
• Arsenic – not that far off
• Bromine
• Silver
• Iodine
• Tungsten – same as copper
• Gold
• Thorium – what a mess. Mav said he would do it some years ago: I could do it later.

There's also these two actinides:

• Uranium – an FA, but what a mess slightly choppy and perhaps messy at points.
• Californium – if it's an FA, how can it be shorter than all the GAs for the actinides around it? (This is of debatable importance, but I couldn't let this go.) The existing content is good, but I keep feeling that there could be a lot more. In general maybe Np is too detailed and Cf is not detailed enough, I think.

Double sharp (talk) 08:05, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Bromine and iodine have always been the thorn in our roses. It's a huge mess with these two: even their names are abused to mean other things. OK, let's fix both of these, but after we get fluorine to the peak. Parcly Taxel 08:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Chlorine gets more views per unit time on average, I think, and this makes up for it being B instead of C (the last time I checked, I would have thought it was rather on the low side of B). So I think Cl, Br, and I are about as equally important. By this measure N, Na, Mg, Ca, Fe, Ag, and Au are also very high priorities. These are all among the most important elements, so there will be a lot to write about, unlike in the actinides and transactinides when many sections (first biological role, then occurrence, then applications, etc.) get atrophied as the atomic number increases. Double sharp (talk) 14:36, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

@Double sharp: Of course, when you have a lot to write about there'll be a lot of references. But I would disagree on chlorine to do after Project Fluorine flops (if you know what I mean): let's have some variety, we'll come back to that after we do one or two articles elsewhere in the periodic table. Without loss of generality we can take sulfur. This one I think you left out when you catalogued the articles lacking in quality, and it also has some real history we can write about. From the Bible to wars in Sicily and the contact process to methionine – it's everywhere. It's like a sulfur gold mine. Parcly Taxel 02:18, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't leave S out: it's under "All the period 3 elements (except argon)".

But the fact is, just sitting here and talking about each goal won't get anything done. I gave a list to stimulate article development, and if you think I left out something deserving, you can add it and work on it yourself. If I had to pick one now, it would be Th, simply because I've had the experience of working with an actinide article (Np, and to a lesser extent Bk).

BTW, halogen isn't an element, but really should be an FA due to its importance. But I can understand that after F, At, and E117, one would tend to feel jaded about doing Cl, Br, and I for the moment. If you want to do groups, Sr seems a good quick choice, because Ba is a good model and is old enough that the memories of the work don't come back.

If you're keen on GTs, though, Na GA will immediately create one (alkali metal). Double sharp (talk) 02:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

P.S. You can write a good history section on every element. See for example neptunium (thanks Thingg!) and ununseptium (thanks R8R!). But I do agree that for an ancient element you will have lots and lots to write about. Thus I could again throw out the names of the elements known to the ancients: Cu, Pb, Au, Ag, Fe, C, Sn, S, Hg, Zn, As, Sb, perhaps Cr. Double sharp (talk) 02:35, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Started giving some talkpage comments for Cf at Talk:Californium#Comments. I looked at relevant sections Haire and then checked to see if the cool and easily understandable info was in the article. Mostly it wasn't. Double sharp (talk) 07:27, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Firing on all cylinders now

@Sandbh: Guys and gals! Fluorine is now at FAC for the fourth time! We need all hands on deck so it doesn't stall! Parcly Taxel 12:32, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

I will review this weekend, RL permitting (it doesn't rain, it pours) Sandbh (talk) 10:49, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Ununtrium → element 113 etc.

This used to be its own section, but I moved it to become a subsection of "On our noticeboard proposals" as point 5 to keep all the noticeboard proposal discussion together. Double sharp (talk) 11:06, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

On our noticeboard proposals

My viewpoints, some months later:

1. (Sc-Y-Lu-Lr): Neutral, could go either way. IMHO following IUPAC and being ambiguous is the best solution for now. If IUPAC starts to explicitly recommend Sc-Y-Lu-Lr then we should change it. Support. For 32-column, IUPAC's solution cannot be followed, and so we have to use chemical and physical arguments, which favour Sc-Y-Lu-Lr. 18-column should follow this so as to be consistnet.
2. (Rare earth metals): Oppose. Sc isn't that close, and while Y is close to the lanthanides in behaviour, so is Ac. So maybe it is not the best.
3. (Group 12 as PTMs): Support: chemically they are overwhelmingly not transition metals, and IUPAC doesn't take sides. It's evenly split in published texts (what's the figure for the composition of group 3? Sandbh might know), so we have to take sides based on chemical and physical arguments (but naturally mentioning the controversy).
4. (What to call the otherwise uncategorized metals): Post-transition metals: I believe this has been resolved some time ago. Al comes after the block of transition metals and thus in some sense is a PTM, and the term has been used this way. Other categorizations (pre-transition metals / post-transition metals) perhaps overemphasize the metallicity of Be and Al, leave Al stranded, use not-very-widely-supported names (poor metals), or use names that don't mean anything out of context (other metals).
5. (Uut vs. 113): 113, definitely: it's more often used by scientists, thus satisfying WP:COMMONNAME, and IUPAC doesn't use its systematic names in its own periodic table. Double sharp (talk) 15:06, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

On Group 3: The only figure I know for the composition Group 3 is given by Clark and White (2008), who show that after 1984 (up to 2008), based on a random selection of 35 chemistry texts, there was a roughly 50/50 split between Sc|Y|Lu|Lr and Sc|Y|La|Ac. Pre-1984, back to about 1947, it was roughly 50/50 between Sc|Y|La|Ac and Sc|Y|*|**. The authors note that Jensen’s "definitive" arguments settled this once and for all i.e. Sc|Y|Lu|Lr. However they add that in 2005 the IUPAC had decided this question with Sc|Y|*|**. Whereas, as we know, IUAPC has not endorsed any form of periodic table, nor ruled on the composition of Group 3.

Sc|Y|Lu|Lr is a no-brainer for me, on the basis of strong physical and chemical arguments. Authors who show La in group 3 have done so either explicitly on the basis of the electron configuration argument; or by rote, based on how other authors have depicted their PTs. Both types of Sc|Y|La sources are not strong enough to support their arguments, as per WP:RELIABLE ("Reliable sources must be strong enough to support the claim.") Sandbh (talk) 11:56, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

(topic discussed subthread #Point 1: about group 3 and Sc-Y-Lu-Lr below). -DePiep (talk) 13:18, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Point 1: about group 3 and Sc-Y-Lu-Lr

re 1. (Sc-Y-Lu-Lr) You run into the sore point. Indeed a 32-column PT must take a side. Then, folding it into an 18-column ambiguously by intention is unsound. A check is: how does any particular 18-column PT re-integrate into a 32-column? (when ambiguous, in cannot be done! It is locked). That is why I want the 18-column PT to correspond 1:1 with the 32-column PT. Out current 18-column does not do so yet (graphically, could introduce a gap column). btw, all variants can be mentioned in a side (like is done for the placement of H). -DePiep (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I have always drawn periodic tables with Lu and Lr under Sc and Y. So we can, indeed, put in a gap column after Ba and Ra (Ca and Sr's cells will fill the gap). And this is not an important issue now. Fluorine is. Parcly Taxel 04:36, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, there's no reason why both can't be done. :-)

Your consistency argument tends to win me over, so I've changed my view on 1 to Support.

As seems traditional, here's a mockup:

Periodic table (Demo A)base: PT basic, PT extended

	1	2																3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18
1	Template:Element cell-1																																Template:Element cell-1
2	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1																										Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
3	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1																										Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
4	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1																Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
5	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1																Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
6	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1		Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
7	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1		Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
8	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	*	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
9	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1																										Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
10			**
			*	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
			**	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1

(Read "post-transition metal" in place of "other metal".) Double sharp (talk) 08:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we need to win over some scientific arguments first. Those advocating 32-column variants like here in de:Fluor. Since this has not a cut & dried outcome (in science), I guess we end up with a 'preferred' PT setup for enwiki and describing variants in a section somewhere. Only after that and with that, the graph department can come in and use the word "18-column". My personal preference for the structure presented is from reading earlier sources on this. But to make that in a consensus outcome is a step tougher for me. (lol @ extending the PT. Must be to simplify matters ;-). I hope the discussion does not get distracted & diverted to period 8+ intricacies and E155). -DePiep (talk) 10:20, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I believe we resolved all the issues with regard to period 8+. E155 would follow Lu and Lr: the issue is really whether Y is placed over La, over Lu, or over a phantom cell whose contents are somewhat ill-defined. To seek a somewhat more official definition of the contents of this phantom cell (sometimes labelled "*"; sometimes helpfully labelled "57–71", clearing up the matter) we need to go again to IUPAC.

An important point I should note that the lanthanides from Ce to Yb, and the actinides from Th to No, can never appear under Sc and Y, unless you interpret the * and ** in Sc/Y/*/** as meaning "Ln" and "An" respectively. (For reference: Ln is an unofficial symbol for any lanthanide; An likewise refers to any actinide. You can also define the range yourself of these symbols, overriding the usual endpoints, if you want to include only some of the lanthanides and actinides, e.g. in a construction like "An₂O₅ (An = Pa, U, Np)". If you want to use other elements, typically M (metal), X, Y, or Z are used.)

Even using the Sc/Y/Ln/An interpretation, though, I have to wonder if any of these are ever considered to be group 3 elements. If I talk about the group 1–12 elements, I must be including scandium and yttrium. But do I include lanthanum? Do I include lutetium? Do I include gadolinium? The only lanthanides and actinides I think could be reasonably said to have a IUPAC group number are either La and Ac or Lu and Lr (but not both).

Indeed the 2005 Red Book explicitly says on p.51 (p.63 of the .pdf I linked): "Optionally, the letters s, p, d and f may be used to distinguish different blocks of elements. For example, the elements of groups 3–12 are the d-block elements." This clearly shows to me that IUPAC does not support Sc/Y/*/** as the composition of group 3, despite using a periodic table that shows group 3 like this! It must therefore either be Sc/Y/La/Ac or Sc/Y/Lu/Lr, depending on whether you think La and Ac are d-block elements or f-block elements. I tend to think that they are f-block elements with an anomalous s²d¹ valence electron configuration, just like Th has electron configuration [Rn]6d²7s². Since nobody wants to put Th in the d-block, putting Ac in the d-block seems inadvisable. So it must be that Lu and Lr are the d-block elements and should be in group 3. (I am using the electron configuration argument here, as IUPAC here invokes electron configurations by naming the d-block explicitly.) So, to answer the question I asked last paragraph: either I include lanthanum or lutetium, but not both, and I include no other lanthanides. (The same holds for the homologous actinides.)

Of course, this IUPAC definition does not forbid placing only Sc and Y in group 3, and leaving all the lanthanides and actinides outside it. But this is impossible to express in a 32-column table, and is impossible to unambiguously express in an 18-column table: hence I believe we should ignore this possibility. Double sharp (talk) 14:33, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Nevertheless...if IUPAC rejects the Sc/Y/Ln/An definition of group 3, then why does the "IUPAC Periodic Table of the Elements" on p.2 of that linked .pdf show "57–71" and "89–103" below Sc and Y? It's not just a 2005 thing: they do that in their 2013 version as well, together with the explicit colouring of only the lanthanides and actinides. Double sharp (talk) 14:54, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

@Double sharp: The least displeasing manner of having Lu and Lr in group 3 while acknowledging the lanthaans and the actaans would be something like as below:

Sc

Y

*Lu

**Lr

(Demo B)
And seriously, the FAC for fluorine looks stalled now. Get everyone you possibly can to review the article so all opposition can be squashed. Parcly Taxel 01:03, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

re Double sharp. "IUPAC definition does not forbid placing only Sc and Y in group 3, and leaving all the lanthanides and actinides outside it." (OK) "But this is impossible to express in a 32-column table"? (I understand & hope & prey you do not mean to say "... left out of the main graph and drawn below"). But having only Sc/Y defined in group 3, isn't that:

Template:Element cell-1/Table header

	(gr 1)	2																3	4	(gr 5–18)
1
2		Template:Element cell-1
3		Template:Element cell-1
4		Template:Element cell-1																Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
5		Template:Element cell-1																Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
6		Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1		Template:Element cell-1
7		Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1		Template:Element cell-1

Demo C: Cutout of relevant area in a 32-column PT. It shown "Sc/Y in group 3, none of the Ln/An". (see Double sharp at 14:33, final paragraphs).

This is an illustration of a point only, I am not supporting this (not even understanding its background). -DePiep (talk) 09:13, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Parcly Taxel. You wrote "And seriously, ..." (at 01:03). Does this mean that what you wrote before that, does not need attention? And anyway, please stop the F-ing spamming. It distracts, and most editors here are well capable of setting their own priorities. ping added -DePiep (talk) 09:23, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

@DePiep: Yes, I indeed neglected to consider that. Note, however, that if you do that, not only is it uncertain whether Sc and Y appear before the lanthanides and actinides or after them, it also bloats the periodic table to 33 columns (and the column from Sc and Y don't really contrast as much in chemical properties with Ln and An as all other group boundaries do) and leaves oddly empty cells when there is no need to do so (unlike in periods 8, 9, and 10, when we do have to leave gaps to preserve both periodicity and the ascending atomic number sequence). Double sharp (talk) 11:10, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I see the before/after issue. Sources are mixed about this then? Or could we conclude to draw in one way, as an explicit preferred choice (cf., positioning H)? -DePiep (talk) 11:52, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I've never seen a source that does it this way, and only raised it to make the point that IUPAC doesn't forbid it, and it is a sometimes encountered use of language (or misuse: YMMV) to mean only Sc and Y when one says "group 3" (I think this was their motivation here, instead of for the PT). But I have not seen a PT like this, where none of the lanthanides are placed under Sc and Y in group 3. Double sharp (talk) 13:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

A contending variant

This is a contending variant, discussed in earlier on this page (these discussion have multiple sources, like Scerri).

Template:Element cell-1/Table header

	(gr 1)	2	3															4	(gr 5–18)
1
2		Template:Element cell-1
3		Template:Element cell-1
4		Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1															Template:Element cell-1
5		Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1															Template:Element cell-1
6		Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1
7		Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1	Template:Element cell-1

Demo D: Cutout of relevant area in a 32-column PT. Sc/Y/La/Ac in group 3.

As used in dewiki de:Vorlage:Navigationsleiste_Periodensystem navbox in de:Fluor (but not consistently everywhere in there). -DePiep (talk) 09:59, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

You made a brilliant pun against me above, de Piep. And what other proposals could be out there? Parcly Taxel 10:02, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Thx, me ;-) too. Do you want me to expand on your remarks? Some questions arose here, but let's not spend time on sidetracks. -DePiep (talk) 10:10, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe. Regarding the four proposals we have now: C doesn't "look" right (all the lanthanides/actinides have +3 oxidation states, so some must go into group 3), D breaks the 2-6-10-14 step pattern of the periodic table (which has a solid base in atomic physics). A and B are the two leading contenders now, so we may have to compromise on this. Parcly Taxel 10:18, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I do not see anything wrong with breaking the 2-6-10-14 step pattern, when periods 8 and beyond are probably going to do this anyway. If La was much more chemically similar to Y than Lu, I would choose D and ignore the step pattern. I also do not place much faith in "does it look right?" arguments, because this is subjective and depends on what you are used to. Did you find the 8-column periodic table to look "right" when you first saw it?

Sc acts like an early lanthanide (La to Sm), while Y acts more like a late lanthanide (Dy to Lu). (If you're wondering, Eu, Gd, and Tb fall somewhere in the middle, with Eu more on the "early" side and Gd and Tb more on the "late" side.) So this alone does not distinguish between D and A/B.

I am in favour of A as opposed to B (assuming A means leaving a gap "57–70"/"89–102" between group 2 and group 3), because it doesn't crowd the Ba and Ra (or Lu and Lr) cells with asterisks. So I think that the best are A and D. Double sharp (talk) 11:01, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) re Parcly Taxel. May sound a bit tough, but that should help clarify what I think.

1. I refuse to go into any 18-column graphics here. First we must know how to show it in a 32-column PT. For every asterisk or element range (like "57–71") or placeholder, I ask: how does that work out in a 32-column PT? Expand it! Also, any 32-col PT must have all group numbers present. No hiding of issues. (check your Demo B the "displeasing manner"; and your link to nl:Lanthaan).
2. You wrote "put in a gap column after Ba and Ra (Ca and Sr's cells will fill the gap)". A "gap" for me is a column without elements. Then having Ca/Sr in there undoes it being a "gap". Also, I don't understand what it's supposed to say or show. But ... a 32-col PT does not need gaps, because there are no asterisks or placeholders needed (nor allowed by me).
3. Exception: for PT extensions, as #Demo A shows, gaps may reappear as do placeholders (asterisks, ouch) but I skip that because it confuses again -- that is about a 52-column PT. I refuse talking about extended PT here too (unless someone can show that these theroticals affect & change the known PT).
4. I want the core discussion here only to be about scientific arguments (from sources). I'd like to have a consensus on how we present the 32-col PT. And keeping it this single issue is the best way to go. Now these sources are mentioned in earlier talks here: Scerri, Jensen (1982), Scerri_about_group_3 (by me), Talk:Periodic_table#Alternatives_Strongly_biased. (Scerri responded), and more. Any more variants should be from there, not by ourselves. Our personal likes could be too much OR/POV for a decision (declaring one PT version preferred at enwiki). Would we do that, there will be havoc later as with the "other metal" chaos.
5. So what we need, IMO, is that single-topic proposal + discussion from these source, reopened actually from earlier talks. Sources first. It now better end in a conclusion. (I have no time now nor chemical clout to pull this off, I think). -DePiep (talk) 11:09, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

1. OK. (I'm already giving 32-column examples.)
2. I think what Parcly Taxel means is having a gap between Ba and Lu, as well as between Ra and Lr; but the cells for Ca and Sr would extend into this gap column and connect with the Sc and Y cells. (But then why only Ca and Sr and not Be and Mg?) I find this somewhat distasteful, as then (1) it is no longer a gap and (2) if you expand this out into a 32-column table, Ca and Sr do not touch Sc and Y: so why should we make them do so in an 18-column table?
3. Yes, you don't need gaps for an extended table if you make it a 52-column periodic table, but (1) that is awfully wide and (2) the extensions are not relevant to this discussion, which focuses on only the following six elements: scandium, yttrium, lanthanum, lutetium, actinium, and lawrencium.
4. This means that C must be stricken from any consideration, as it is never used AFAIK. So the choice is between A, B, and D. Sandbh posted a link (now in one of the archives) to an 18-column table done like A: it has a gap column between Ba and Lu, so that this can be considered. (Figure posted below.)
5. I'll get to that after searching and reading through the relevant archived threads. As you say, these issues had better be resolved instead of left hanging. Double sharp (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

1. What that thing below?

2. Why verbose? Is there not a single link on internet or demo to be made?

3. Sigh. Injecting the extensions muddles the discussion, leading us into a swamp.

4. You mean we discussed a non-used version #Demo C? Hm.

4. 18-column variants are muddling the topic. Too often this discussion has been rendered useless exactly because people mix up scientific base with graphic 18-col 'solutions' (solutions for what?). -DePiep (talk) 13:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Double sharp (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

(collapse and make <nowiki> to speed up the page).

Remove the <nowiki> </nowiki> tag pair to reactivate the table. -DePiep (talk) 00:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC) {| class="collapsible collapsed" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" style="table-layout:fixed; background:{{element color|table background}}; border:1px solid {{element color|table border}}; width:100%; max-width:1800px; margin:0 auto; padding:2px; vertical-align:top;" ! colspan=20 style="background:{{element color|table title}}; padding:2px 4px;" | {{#invoke:navbar|navbar|collapsible=1|[[Periodic table]]}} |- style="line-height:125%; vertical-align:top;" ! style="text-align:left;" | <small>[[Group (periodic table)|Group]]</small> ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Alkali metal|1]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Alkaline earth metal|2]] !   ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 3 element|3]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 4 element|4]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 5 element|5]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 6 element|6]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 7 element|7]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 8 element|8]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 9 element|9]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 10 element|10]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 11 element|11]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 12 element|12]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Boron group|13]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Carbon group|14]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Pnictogen|15]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Chalcogen|16]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Halogen|17]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Noble gas|18]] |- style="font-size:85%; text-align:left; line-height:125%; vertical-align:top;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | Alkali metals | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | Alkaline earth metals |   | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | Pnicto{{shy}}gens | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | Chal{{shy}}co{{shy}}gens | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | Halo{{shy}}gens | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | Noble gases |- ! <small>[[Period (periodic table)|Period]]</small><br/> [[Period 1 element|1]] | {{element cell-named| 1|hydrogen |H ||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | colspan="17" | | {{element cell-named| 2|helium |He||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 2 element|2]] | {{element cell-named| 3|lithium |Li||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 4|beryllium |Be||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} | colspan="11" | | {{element cell-named| 5|boron |B ||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 6|carbon |C ||Solid|Polyatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 7|nitrogen |N ||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 8|oxygen |O ||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 9|fluorine |F ||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|10|neon |Ne||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 3 element|3]] | {{element cell-named|11|sodium |Na||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|12|magnesium |Mg||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} | colspan="11" | | {{element cell-named|13|aluminium |Al||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|14|silicon |Si||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|15|phosphorus|P ||Solid|Polyatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|16|sulfur |S ||Solid|Polyatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|17|chlorine |Cl||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|18|argon |Ar||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 4 element|4]] | {{element cell-named|19|potassium |K ||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|20|calcium |Ca||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} |   | {{element cell-named|21|scandium |Sc||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|22|titanium |Ti||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|23|vanadium |V ||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|24|chromium |Cr||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|25|manganese |Mn||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|26|iron |Fe||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|27|cobalt |Co||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|28|nickel |Ni||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|29|copper |Cu||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|30|zinc |Zn||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|31|gallium |Ga||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|32|germanium |Ge||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|33|arsenic |As||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|34|selenium |Se||Solid|Polyatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|35|bromine |Br||Liquid|Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|36|krypton |Kr||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 5 element|5]] | {{element cell-named|37|rubidium |Rb||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|38|strontium |Sr||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} |   | {{element cell-named|39|yttrium |Y ||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|40|zirconium |Zr||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|41|niobium |Nb||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|42|molybdenum|Mo||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|43|technetium|Tc||Solid|Transition metal|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|44|ruthenium |Ru||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|45|rhodium |Rh||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|46|palladium |Pd||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|47|silver |Ag||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|48|cadmium |Cd||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|49|indium |In||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|50|tin |Sn||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|51|antimony |Sb||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|52|tellurium |Te||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|53|iodine | I  ||Solid|Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|54|xenon |Xe||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 6 element|6]] | {{element cell-named|55|caesium |Cs||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|56|barium |Ba||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-asterisk|1}} | {{element cell-named|71|lutetium |Lu||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|72|hafnium |Hf||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|73|tantalum |Ta||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|74|tungsten |W ||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|75|rhenium |Re||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|76|osmium |Os||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|77|iridium |Ir||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|78|platinum |Pt||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|79|gold |Au||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|80|mercury |Hg||Liquid|Transition metal|Primordial|link=Mercury (element)}} | {{element cell-named|81|thallium |Tl||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|82|lead |Pb||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|83|bismuth |Bi||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|84|polonium |Po||Solid|other metals|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|85|astatine |At||Solid|Metalloid|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|86|radon |Rn||Gas |Noble gas|From decay}} |- ! [[Period 7 element|7]] | {{element cell-named|87|francium |Fr||Solid|Alkali metal|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|88|radium |Ra||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|From decay}} | {{element cell-asterisk|2}} | {{element cell-named|103|lawrencium |Lr||Unknown phase|Actinide|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|104|rutherfordium|Rf||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|105|dubnium |Db||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|106|seaborgium |Sg||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|107|bohrium |Bh||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|108|hassium |Hs||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|109|meitnerium |Mt||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|110|darmstadtium |Ds||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|111|roentgenium |Rg||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|112|copernicium |Cn||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|113|ununtrium |Uut||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|114|flerovium |Fl||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|115|ununpentium |Uup||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|116|livermorium |Lv||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|117|ununseptium |Uus||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|118|ununoctium |Uuo||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} |- | colspan="20" style="height:0.85em;" | |- | colspan="4" {{element cell-asterisk|1|align=right}} | {{element cell-named|57|lanthanum |La||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|58|cerium |Ce||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|59|praseodymium|Pr||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|60|neodymium |Nd||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|61|promethium |Pm||Solid|Lanthanide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|62|samarium |Sm||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|63|europium |Eu||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|64|gadolinium |Gd||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|65|terbium |Tb||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|66|dysprosium |Dy||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|67|holmium |Ho||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|68|erbium |Er||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|69|thulium |Tm||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|70|ytterbium |Yb||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} |   |   |- | colspan="4" {{element cell-asterisk|2|align=right}} | {{element cell-named|89|actinium |Ac||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|90|thorium |Th||Solid|Actinide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|91|protactinium|Pa||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|92|uranium |U ||Solid|Actinide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|93|neptunium |Np||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|94|plutonium |Pu||Solid|Actinide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|95|americium |Am||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|96|curium |Cm||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|97|berkelium |Bk||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|98|californium |Cf||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|99|einsteinium |Es||Solid|Actinide|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|100|fermium |Fm||Unknown phase|Actinide|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|101|mendelevium|Md||Unknown phase|Actinide|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|102|nobelium |No||Unknown phase|Actinide|Synthetic}} |   |   |- | colspan=20 style="font-size:90%;" | ''(applicable legend goes here)'' |}

Double sharp (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I am only interested in the 32 col variant for consensus. -DePiep (talk) 12:45, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

The 18 col table I posted below was to illustrate how I thought the folding into 18 col should be accomplished, which is the only reason why we would use 18 col illustrations at all. This is because Parcly Taxel wanted to have * and ** in the same cell as Lu and Lr, and I felt that perhaps the 32 col version I put above (fig. A) did not show this clearly enough. Double sharp (talk) 13:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

@Double sharp and DePiep: Just hold on here. What I meant with Proposal B #Demo B was:

• Group 3 is to contain Sc, Y, Lu and Lr.
• The lanthanides and actinides are to be represented in the main body as a little slit before Lu and Lr, in the same column as Lu and Lr.

The table seen in some PTOV videos is of this format. That should clarify my points. Parcly Taxel 11:49, 10 July 2014 (UTC) (moved to this thread) -DePiep (talk) 12:41, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

One element per cell. Once we have that, someone can fold it and cut it and and inscribe it on a grain of rice. But only then. #Demo B does not say how it shows in 32 col format, and does not number groups. -DePiep (talk) 12:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree: one element per cell is the way to go. The gap doesn't have to be the same width as the other cells – it can be a lot thinner – but it must be present.

In 32 col format, demo B is exactly the same as demo A. In 18 col format, I gather it should show as Sc/Y/*Lu/**Lr, viz.:

(collapse and make <nowiki> to speed up the page).

Remove the <nowiki></nowiki> tags to reactivate the table. -DePiep (talk) 00:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC) {| class="collapsible collapsed" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" style="table-layout:fixed; background:{{element color|table background}}; border:1px solid {{element color|table border}}; width:100%; max-width:1800px; margin:0 auto; padding:2px; vertical-align:top;" ! colspan=19 style="background:{{element color|table title}}; padding:2px 4px;" | {{#invoke:navbar|navbar|collapsible=1|[[Periodic table]]}} |- style="line-height:125%; vertical-align:top;" ! style="text-align:left;" | <small>[[Group (periodic table)|Group]]</small> ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Alkali metal|1]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Alkaline earth metal|2]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 3 element|3]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 4 element|4]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 5 element|5]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 6 element|6]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 7 element|7]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 8 element|8]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 9 element|9]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 10 element|10]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Group 11 element|11]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Group 12 element|12]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Boron group|13]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Carbon group|14]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Pnictogen|15]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Chalcogen|16]] ! style="background:#e8e8e8;" | [[Halogen|17]] ! style="background:#f0f0f0;" | [[Noble gas|18]] |- style="font-size:85%; text-align:left; line-height:125%; vertical-align:top;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | Alkali metals | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | Alkaline earth metals | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | Pnicto{{shy}}gens | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | Chal{{shy}}co{{shy}}gens | style="background:#e8e8e8;" | Halo{{shy}}gens | style="background:#f0f0f0;" | Noble gases |- ! <small>[[Period (periodic table)|Period]]</small><br/> [[Period 1 element|1]] | {{element cell-named| 1|hydrogen |H ||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | colspan="16" | | {{element cell-named| 2|helium |He||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 2 element|2]] | {{element cell-named| 3|lithium |Li||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 4|beryllium |Be||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} | colspan="10" | | {{element cell-named| 5|boron |B ||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 6|carbon |C ||Solid|Polyatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 7|nitrogen |N ||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 8|oxygen |O ||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named| 9|fluorine |F ||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|10|neon |Ne||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 3 element|3]] | {{element cell-named|11|sodium |Na||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|12|magnesium |Mg||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} | colspan="10" | | {{element cell-named|13|aluminium |Al||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|14|silicon |Si||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|15|phosphorus|P ||Solid|Polyatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|16|sulfur |S ||Solid|Polyatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|17|chlorine |Cl||Gas |Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|18|argon |Ar||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 4 element|4]] | {{element cell-named|19|potassium |K ||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|20|calcium |Ca||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|21|scandium |Sc||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|22|titanium |Ti||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|23|vanadium |V ||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|24|chromium |Cr||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|25|manganese |Mn||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|26|iron |Fe||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|27|cobalt |Co||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|28|nickel |Ni||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|29|copper |Cu||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|30|zinc |Zn||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|31|gallium |Ga||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|32|germanium |Ge||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|33|arsenic |As||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|34|selenium |Se||Solid|Polyatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|35|bromine |Br||Liquid|Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|36|krypton |Kr||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 5 element|5]] | {{element cell-named|37|rubidium |Rb||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|38|strontium |Sr||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|39|yttrium |Y ||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|40|zirconium |Zr||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|41|niobium |Nb||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|42|molybdenum|Mo||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|43|technetium|Tc||Solid|Transition metal|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|44|ruthenium |Ru||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|45|rhodium |Rh||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|46|palladium |Pd||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|47|silver |Ag||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|48|cadmium |Cd||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|49|indium |In||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|50|tin |Sn||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|51|antimony |Sb||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|52|tellurium |Te||Solid|Metalloid|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|53|iodine | I  ||Solid|Diatomic nonmetal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|54|xenon |Xe||Gas |Noble gas|Primordial}} |- ! [[Period 6 element|6]] | {{element cell-named|55|caesium |Cs||Solid|Alkali metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|56|barium |Ba||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|AST 71|lutetium |Lu||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|72|hafnium |Hf||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|73|tantalum |Ta||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|74|tungsten |W ||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|75|rhenium |Re||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|76|osmium |Os||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|77|iridium |Ir||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|78|platinum |Pt||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|79|gold |Au||Solid|Transition metal|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|80|mercury |Hg||Liquid|Transition metal|Primordial|link=Mercury (element)}} | {{element cell-named|81|thallium |Tl||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|82|lead |Pb||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|83|bismuth |Bi||Solid|other metals|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|84|polonium |Po||Solid|other metals|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|85|astatine |At||Solid|Metalloid|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|86|radon |Rn||Gas |Noble gas|From decay}} |- ! [[Period 7 element|7]] | {{element cell-named|87|francium |Fr||Solid|Alkali metal|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|88|radium |Ra||Solid|Alkaline earth metal|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|AST2**103|lawrencium |Lr||Unknown phase|Actinide|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|104|rutherfordium|Rf||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|105|dubnium |Db||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|106|seaborgium |Sg||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|107|bohrium |Bh||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|108|hassium |Hs||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|109|meitnerium |Mt||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|110|darmstadtium |Ds||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|111|roentgenium |Rg||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|112|copernicium |Cn||Unknown phase|Transition metal|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|113|ununtrium |Uut||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|114|flerovium |Fl||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|115|ununpentium |Uup||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|116|livermorium |Lv||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|117|ununseptium |Uus||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|118|ununoctium |Uuo||Unknown phase|Unknown chemical properties|Synthetic}} |- | colspan="19" style="height:0.85em;" | |- | colspan="3" {{element cell-asterisk|1|align=right}} | {{element cell-named|57|lanthanum |La||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|58|cerium |Ce||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|59|praseodymium|Pr||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|60|neodymium |Nd||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|61|promethium |Pm||Solid|Lanthanide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|62|samarium |Sm||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|63|europium |Eu||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|64|gadolinium |Gd||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|65|terbium |Tb||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|66|dysprosium |Dy||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|67|holmium |Ho||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|68|erbium |Er||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|69|thulium |Tm||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|70|ytterbium |Yb||Solid|Lanthanide|Primordial}} |   |   |- | colspan="3" {{element cell-asterisk|2|align=right}} | {{element cell-named|89|actinium |Ac||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|90|thorium |Th||Solid|Actinide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|91|protactinium|Pa||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|92|uranium |U ||Solid|Actinide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|93|neptunium |Np||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|94|plutonium |Pu||Solid|Actinide|Primordial}} | {{element cell-named|95|americium |Am||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|96|curium |Cm||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|97|berkelium |Bk||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|98|californium |Cf||Solid|Actinide|From decay}} | {{element cell-named|99|einsteinium |Es||Solid|Actinide|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|100|fermium |Fm||Unknown phase|Actinide|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|101|mendelevium|Md||Unknown phase|Actinide|Synthetic}} | {{element cell-named|102|nobelium |No||Unknown phase|Actinide|Synthetic}} |   |   |- | colspan=19 style="font-size:90%;" | ''(applicable legend goes here)'' |}

Double sharp (talk) 13:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Double sharp, Parcly Taxel, Sandbh. I leave this thread. I spend dozens of posts to bring focus to the topic, and the only responses are editors following every red herring off topic like an ADHD child after a month without Ritalin let loose in a circus candyshop with a loud television. -DePiep (talk) 14:20, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry! You wanted the physical/chemical arguments, didn't you? I'm just trying to reply to everyone. I will draft something in userspace that states only the arguments you wanted. Double sharp (talk) 14:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

@DePiep: I fail to leave this thread/reject the null hypothesis. You "abandoned" the discussion on Sc/Y/Lu/Lr, and I was totally devastated. A ton of physical and chemical arguments support my Demo B idea (Sc/Y/*Lu/**Lr). The IUPAC actually places all lanthanides/actinides outside for the reason that all of them show +3 oxidation states, yet it'd be unwieldy to have 32 elements in a group that normally would have only four – we have to consider that. They have a point.

Indeed, what I'm seeing with the controversy is that periodic trends change from group-wise to period-wise with increasing atomic number. For example, we have the halogens and alkali metals forming well-defined groups, and the period 2/period 3 elements have wild variations, but as we go down to 4 and 5 (the transition metals from scandium to cadmium) there's less variation, and finally when we get to the lanthanides and actinides it's almost like the run from lanthanum to lutetium is a period by itself, sempiternal in nature. Groups (columns) then make little sense. According to my previous points here, we should thus place Lu and Lr in group 3. Parcly Taxel 02:57, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree with that for the lanthanides: not so much for the early actinides, who behave more like they were in the d-block groups (which are still quite important, unlike the f-block ones) until about Am or Cm.

Did IUPAC say explicitly that their choice of Sc/Y/*/** was because all show the +3 oxidation state? While this is true, +3 is not the most common oxidation state for some actinides (Th, Pa, U, Np, Pu, No). All the transition metals in periods 4 to 6 show the +2 oxidation state: it's just that for many of them, this is not one of the more stable states.

Yes, I agree with you that Sc/Y/Lu/Lr is supported by physical and chemical arguments. But I think it is a closer call, because Sc/Y/La/Ac is also quite well-supported by other physical and chemical arguments. I will expound on this in the summary I told DePiep I would write soon: in the meantime, I'm quite sure all this has been covered already in longer form in the archives.

I do not oppose placing Lu and Lr in group 3: I will later explain my reasons. But what I oppose is putting the asterisks in the Lu and Lr cells, making your proposed Sc/Y/*Lu/**Lr: in my opinion, there should only be one element in a cell, and this suggests that the cell is split into two, one sliver for 57–70, and the bulk for 71. This, I think, is confusing and should be avoided, and needlessly obfuscates the placement of the lanthanides and actinides. Double sharp (talk) 03:53, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Demo E (or B2, if you like):

	3
Sc
Y
*	Lu
**	Lr

This should clarify, once and for all, that the rest of Ln/An are not in group 3.Parcly Taxel 03:18, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

This is the same as Demo A (though B2 is in an 18-column format), and I support this one. Double sharp (talk) 04:39, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Oops, didn't look at it carefully enough! No, this form is unclear because of Sc and Y stretching. It looks like those two are both in group 3 and out of it. Double sharp (talk) 07:17, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. I apologise for my lack of wikitable skills. The column left of group 3 should be thinner, much thinner, and the * and ** could maybe creep a little bit into Ba and Ra. Parcly Taxel 10:07, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

But that makes it look as though the Ln and An belong in group 2, which I think is even less desirable. Double sharp (talk) 10:20, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

@Double sharp: Having carefully re-read Lavell, Scerri and Jensen, and concluding that Scerri-Jensen did a demolition job on Lavelle's argument for La | Ac, I look forward to reading about what other physical and chemical arguments support La | Ac. Sandbh (talk) 12:57, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Rest assured, I'll come up with something more convincing than just reiteration of the tired and easily refuted electron configuration argument. ;-) I think I posted some things on R8R Gtrs' talkpage on the matter. Double sharp (talk) 13:11, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

(...though for completeness, I did include that one as well.) Double sharp (talk) 13:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Arguments

This is the first in the series of posts I will make on these issues, summarizing the arguments on both sides.

Sc/Y/Lu/Lr

1. Electron configurations The anomalous [Rn] 6d² 7s² electron configuration of Th, as well as the general valence electron configuration (with a few exceptions) of the f-block elements (n−2)f^xns² (instead of (n−2)f^x−1(n−1)d¹ns²), supports the idea that La and Ac are f-block elements with anomalous electron configurations. The differentiating electron for Lu enters the 5d orbital, and follows the Madelung rule exactly. Lr is thus also a d-block element with an anomalous [Rn] 5f¹⁴ 7s² 7p¹ electron configuration. (The configuration for the ground state of Lr was still in doubt in 2006, and I do not know if it has been cleared up yet. It may yet have the expected [Rn] 5f¹⁴ 6d¹ 7s² configuration. Details may be found in The Chemistry of the Actinide and Transactinide Elements, 3rd ed. (p.1643–4). I have not seen the 2011 4th edition.)
2. d-block splitting Taking Sc/Y/Lu/Lr keeps the d-block together, while Sc/Y/La/Ac tears it apart, predicting that the d¹ electron should mostly be kept from Ce to Lu with a few exceptions. But in fact it is the opposite.
3. Period analogies Taking Sc/Y/Lu/Lr means that passing from a period 5 transition element to a period 6 transition element always adds a filled f orbital. Lu to Hg have a [Xe] 4f¹⁴ core, while La only has a [Xe] core.
4. Group trends Trends for atomic radii, (1st+2nd) ionization energy, and Allred–Rochow electronegativity for Sc-Y-Lu show the same trend as for the other transition metal groups, whereas Sc–Y–La shows a straight trend because of the lack of the insertion of the 4f subshell. But see below for a counterargument.
5. Physical and chemical behaviour Sc and Y act a lot like Lu. Some sample properties may be seen in Jensen's famous paper. But see below for a counterargument.

Sc/Y/La/Ac

1. Lutetium as a transition metal Sc, Y, and Lu are physically transition metals, but chemically they are largely not (viz. the +3 oxidation state). (Much the same is true of group 4 in the +4 oxidation state, though.) This would make them marginal transition metals, and therefore Sc/Y/Lu/Lr argument 4 may have a weak premise. And if Sc, Y, and Lu are marginal transition metals, why take Lu out of the TMs and not Sc or Y?

   Does this argument not also apply to La? Suggesting we take out Sc or Y seems like a spurious argument. Shall we take Be out the alkaline earths given some of its peculiar behaviour compared to its heavier congeners; or shall we take Tl out of group 13 given it behaves more like an alkali metal or silver in some of its chemistry? Or why do we call silver a transition metal given most of its chemistry is like that of a main group element? Aiee! How do we preserve the paragraph numbers? Sandbh (talk) 12:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

   This is how you can preserve the paragraph numbers (see the wikicode). :-) But haven't all your examples been done by one author or another? And isn't La physically also not a very good transition metal? La has a low density, as do Sc and Y, its melting point isn't all that high (irs boiling point seems quite high, though), and it's quite a soft metal (Mohs hardness 2.5, although I'm aware that fractional values on the Mohs scale aren't all that meaningful). Ac also has a rather low melting point and a higher density of about 10 g·m⁻³, as one would expect (it's about as dense as Ag, and getting close to the Pb value). Both have oxide layers that are only somewhat effective at stopping further corrosion: e.g. La will start corroding within about two days of exposure to air (the order among the lanthanides is Eu, La, Ce, Pr, Nd...), the oxide layer will start spalling off within two weeks, the white oxide will be clearly visible within two months, and corrosion will be complete within the year (ref: REM Long Term Air Exposure Test).

   My argument was actually supposed to be that it seemed rare to put Lu primarily as a TM instead of a lanthanide, and taking Lu out of the TMs and not Sc and Y seems inconsistent. This categorization is a lot more common for La, as I recall, although there it makes even less sense IMHO: e.g. Greenwood & Earnshaw, in a series of chapters on the d-block groups, cover La and Ac with Sc and Y, while IIRC all the other lanthanides and actinides (and transactinides) are covered separately. But you are right in that it is a weak argument, and its main purpose is to just question whether we should really take "group 3 are TMs" as an unquestioned premise when arguing over La vs. Lu. Double sharp (talk) 12:50, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

2. Rare earth elements Sc and Y behave more like the lanthanides than like the transition metals in coordination chemistry (and this is the property Zn, Cd, and Hg share with the group 4–11 elements!) Sc is larger than the other transition metals, so that it typically takes on higher coordination numbers and acts like a smaller version of Lu, although this means that it is somewhat out of place with the rare earths too, being highly basic. But its closest relation among the elements is Y, which is closely related to the lanthanides: Y acts physically and chemically as if it were the lanthanide between Tb and Dy. While I agree with Jensen that Sc, Y, and Lu are very similar, this says nothing about whether they should be treated with the transition metals.
3. Group trends The d-block insertions in group 12 cause kinks in the density trend, while the absence of them in group 2 cause a smooth m.p. trend like in group 1. Similarly, the f-block insertions in Sc/Y/Lu/Lr cause kinks in the density trend: the m.p. trend is inconclusive (both Sc/Y/La and Sc/Y/Lu look odd).
4. Group 3 as a main group Sc, Y, La, and Ac are all soft and reactive metals with typically high melting points (that continue the in-period trend up from groups 1 and 2 pretty well, and also fall going down the group like groups 1 and 2). They all have electrons relatively far from the nucleus like groups 1 and 2. Lu and Lr have electrons held closer and thus Lu behaves more like a transition metal physically (Lr is predicted to be like Lu). Sc, Y, and Lu are reactive but form stable oxide layers like Mg and Al; La and Ac's oxide layers are only somewhat effective in preventing corrosion temporarily, but this is similar to the trend in increasing reactivity going down group 2. OTOH Ti, Zr, and Hf are all hard and refactory with high melting points and the oxide layers are all stable and they are all similar (no clear trend going down them). La continues the trend from Sc and Y like a main group, whereas Lu continues it like a transition metal group. The choice depends on whether you think Sc and Y are transition metals or not.
5. Jensen's compared properties (counterargument to point 5 for Sc/Y/Lu/Lr) Many of these can be explained by group trends. Highest common oxidation state is inconclusive (+3 for Sc, Y, La, and Lu): Y group (Sc, Y, Lu) vs Ce group (La) is simply because La is larger than Sc, Y, and Lu, due to the period difference (Sc and Y) and the lanthanide contraction (Lu); the crystal structures aren't always the same going up and down s- and d-block groups, so it doesn't seem that important that La's crystal structure differs from Sc and Y's: different structures of homologous ionic compounds are not really the most important factor for group assignment, viz. CsCl vs. NaCl (and this is in the alkali metals, the model example of great group trends); Lu is superconductive at atmospheric pressure and low temperature, although Jensen does not list it. The properties I cannot yet explain by group trends or refute are "Presence of low-lying nonhydrogenic f-orbitals" and "d-Block-like structure for conduction band", where La is stated to differ from Sc, Y, and Lu. Can anyone help me understand those?
6. Electron configuration The Madelung rule, while helpful, sometimes goes against reality. If a theory predicts that La should have electron configuration [Xe] 4f¹ 6s² in the ground state, though it doesn't, why should so much trust be placed in what the theory predicts? Why should it be used to create the idea of blocks (and aren't blocks also an artificial concept?) Shouldn't more trust be placed in the fact that La and Ac have the d electron for some reason, and this d electron makes them act more like transition metals than one would expect? The early actinides also act this way, but moving them would tread dangerously into abandoning the principle that elements should appear in increasing atomic number.

   Spurious argument I reckon. Madelung rule is only an idealized construct. Blocks are more than artificial construct. They fall out of ordering the elements periodically according to their electron configurations---irregularities notwithstanding. Placing more trust in the d electron is the fallacious distinguishing electron argument, which has been dismissed by Jensen and Scerri. The placement of an element in the PT rests on more than that. Th for example should be a transition metal. Sandbh (talk) 12:39, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

   My placing an argument here doesn't mean I endorse it as valid. :-) The d-electron argument, though fallacious, has been advanced as an argument for Sc/Y/La/Ac, and I felt it proper to not suppress it (even though I don't believe in it), but try to rationalize it for this post. Double sharp (talk) 12:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

   Understood. I was quite impressed by your work in setting out the arguments. And more impressed that you had attempted to build a house, shabby as they are, of La | Ac arguments. First time I've seen this anywhere apart from what Lavelle wrote. Sandbh (talk) 07:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

   Thank you very much! It's nice to know that this is appreciated and useful. After all, we can't really prove one alternative is the best if we don't examine the cases for all the others, can we? :-) (Though yes, the La | Ac arguments feel somewhat forced to me. I don't deny there is something going on there, but I reckon the similarity between Y and La is really second-order, the sort you will find between A groups and B groups with the same Roman numeral: they are isodonors and isovalent. Third-order I reckon would be something like Au with the halogens, being isoacceptors: to my mind no one seriously advocates any of these.) Double sharp (talk) 08:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Double sharp (talk) 08:33, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

For convenience, here is the link to the Jensen paper I keep referring to. Double sharp (talk) 08:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

(P.S. Some of this content is adapted from earlier posts by me in other venues on Wikipedia.) Double sharp (talk) 08:49, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

P.P.S. If I have missed anything, write it below and I'll add it. I did not consider Sc/Y/*/**, whose only virtue seems to be that it doesn't take sides, at the expense of making a ridiculous 32-column periodic table where you have Sc and Y cells spanning 15 columns from La to Lu. Double sharp (talk) 08:52, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Good start. Let me ponder. Sandbh (talk) 12:47, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

This post covers points 1 (La vs. Lu below Y) and 2 (whether to use the REM category). Next post will be on point 3 (group 12 and their relationship with the TMs). Double sharp (talk) 12:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Point 5: Descriptive vs. systematic names for 7p and beyond

As I understand it, our previous proposal of this sort (click the link) ended with what seems like a consensus for 2.2e? So maybe we should implement this now, with associated page moves and WP:ELEM MOS editing, or should we go through an WP:RM first to get more comments from outside the project? Double sharp (talk) 14:54, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

As for me, I would advise trying it out now (i.e., renaming article and such), but not going into MOS for a while. At least initially, there should be protests over this, because we are going to change something that's been in place for a few years, to which we should respond with our main points (IUPAC is important but per our rules isn't the ideal for Wiki, element 11x is used often than unun-, etc.). If the protests are limited or successfully resolved, it makes sense to try to get this through MOS. Is everyone okay with this?--R8R (talk) 12:53, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Sure, that's fine. So RM first, and then MOS codification, if I understand you correctly? Double sharp (talk) 14:05, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Also, according to the 2005 Red Book, the proposed usage is OK with IUPAC: "Newly discovered elements may be referred to in the scientific literature but until they have received permanent names and symbols from IUPAC, temporary designators are required. Such elements may be referred to by their atomic numbers, as in "element 120" for example, but IUPAC has approved a systematic nomenclature and series of three-letter symbols..." (p.47; p.59 of the .pdf). The rest of that section is a short description of the systematic element names. Double sharp (talk) 14:26, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I strongly advise against this route. An RM without a crisp & clear consensus we can link to won't stand, maybe even fail the first RM one proposes (trust me, you can't control these. See this and this, which concluded negative based on ill-informed drive by editors --both in language, WP:title and in WP:elem-- and by closing admins who read a bit careless. And once closed, we're stuck with it). This way, we must expect many months to many, many months of disputed variant forms (E118 to loose its FA star?). Remember the "I don't like 'other metals'" havoc lately, about just one word.

And IMO the talk was sound enough to write into a MOS. We better cover everything, as we did in the talk: text (handle article title, lede, variant names, formulae, exceptions or confusing symbol/name/systematic name, ...). And in tables (all PT presentations, infobox changes, ...). It affects hundreds of pages in these many ways. If we invite & receive ELEM-interested editors here on this talkpage for a MOS proposal, we know quality floats and nonsense fades out. As for time to spend, I'd like this beforehand controlled instead of reverts afterwards. That said, at the moment I don't have time=energy to pull this one up ;-) ;-) -DePiep (talk) 11:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll defer to your choice. As you say, we need to cover all the arguments first. Double sharp (talk) 13:14, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean when stating the RM way is not a clear one, we can't rely on it, yes. That bugs me. But else can we do? If I understand you correctly (I'm not sure about this, so please check) you propose to hold a talk on whether this should become a MOS rule here, on the WT:ELEM page. I'm afraid that won't work because we can't attract many people here. I tried once when we had an important talk; I don't remember what the talk was on, but I do remember not a single person came here.

Plus, I decided to check the rules on that. It turns out we have to write a proposal (I can do some work with that) and the following MOS talk has to take place as a RfC discussion (if I read this correctly).--R8R (talk) 21:09, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Block legend colors

{{Periodic table (blocks)}} uses block legend colors (for s p d f), of course. But I removed the phase colors, now it's black for all (the font color for the atomic number that tells state of matter/phase). These font colors were very bad in contrast (readability; think red-on-red). And also, I think the connection between block and phase is not that important. -DePiep (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Change the whole block color set

Both the image and the clickable periodic table (for blocks) have new bg colors for the blocks, and at last they share the same legend colors. I applied some basic contrast-check for these colors (w3c & accessibiltiy).

I also put this table at commons:Periodic table blocks, because the images and color numbers are used wiki-world wide. Sort of central color/legend repository for these blocks. Trying to introduce stability (but not by overwriting the previous iw image; I made a new one. @32 columns).

Periodic table: block legend colors (enwiki, July 2014)
s	p	d	f	g
s-block Main Page #ff9999 HSV=0-40-100	p-block Main Page #9bff99 HSV=33-40-100	d-block Main Page #99ccff HSV=58-40-100	f-block Main Page #fdff8c HSV=17-45-100	g-block* Main Page #fd99ff HSV=83-40-100
Element is in block, theoretically or predicted:
s-block (predicted) Main Page #ffcccc	p-block (predicted) Main Page #cdffcc	d-block (predicted) Main Page #c7eeff	f-block (predicted) Main Page #ffffbf	g-block (predicted) Main Page #febfff
* Elements "in g-block" exist theoretically (predicted) only (this g-block darker color is not used, but here for color calculations)
Colors determined in HSV color space, numbers in %. Per column, Hue (the "H" in HSV) is kept; "S" is ~halved from 40%→20%, "V"=100%
Contrast is checked against black font and blue font (#0b0080, wiki bluelink color). All are: AA=OK, AAA=OK. Not checked against other font colors.
Version: introduced on enwiki July 2014 (before, other color schemes were used on enwiki)
See also: en:Block (periodic table) en:Template:Periodic table (blocks) en:Template:Periodic table legend#Block en:Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility on accessibility, like colors. Also links to W3C guidelines. commons:File:Periodic table blocks spdf (32 column).svg commons:File:Periodic_Table_2.svg These colors are not used any more on enwiki, because: g-block is missing, and the need for "predicted" (lighter) shades, and the desire to make them as different & distinguishable as possible (because it is a legend/key color). So this scheme of 5×2 was redesigned from scratch (well, the blue survived).

-DePiep (talk) 20:45, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Would it be OK if we switched colors for p and f? It may be just me, but in the world around me, periodic tables are always colored red-yellow-blue-green (for s-p-d-f). If there is a specific reason not to do the switch, okay, let's see what it is, but if not, let's make this change. (BTW, even the current scheme is a lot better than the previous one)--R8R (talk) 14:52, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Never thought if this. webelements has. But is this common? Any confirmation for other sites / sources / editors? google. If this is main habit, I'll swap them. -DePiep (talk) 17:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Let me show this R8R Gtrs proposal graphically.

As they appear in a PT graph (L-to-R)

Current situation (recent new setting):
s-block	f-block	d-block	p-block
R8R proposal (color swap)
s-block	f-block	d-block	p-block

e.g. in webelements. Responses anyone? (ping @Double sharp: because you triggered this, sort of ;-) ). -DePiep (talk) 12:32, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

We should follow what is actually used in the real world. R8R says his proposal is commonly used, so we should follow it. Double sharp (talk) 14:31, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. So I looked at that real world, through my googles by "periodic table block" (images). That did *not* confirm R8R's statement directly. So then I asked other WP:ELEM editors for some confirmation (not confirmation of R8R, but of the color scheme). Because I did not want to encounter another such post within 48h. And let me note I put this at commons myself. Facing the real world. -DePiep (talk) 21:03, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Wait wait. Not even webelements uses the R8R color scheme.

#Color schemes
As they appear in a PT graph (L-to-R)

enwiki-old
enwiki-new Recent new setting:
s-block	f-block	d-block	p-block
R8R proposal (color swap)
s-block	f-block	d-block	p-block
WebElements
s-block	f-block	d-block	p-block
JINR [1] [2]
s-block	f-block	d-block	p-block
Australian PT (Taxel)
s-block	f-block	d-block	p-block

I won't change anything. -DePiep (talk) 21:51, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Trouble in what I tried to make paradise. -DePiep (talk) 23:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

R8R Gtrs, which color scheme do you see most often, and can you provide a link? -DePiep (talk) 11:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

You interpreted what I said about I see correctly (see what you labeled as "R8R proposal (color swap)" -- exactly that); as for links, I don't have any (other than this: Google Images hits for "таблица менделеева" (Russian for "Mendeleev's table")), but this is a common thing in real life in here. I'm not any place close to my home right now, but when I'm back, I can make a few photos, if you want me to.

Also, I am not going to insist things should be the way I want them to be; but I am under the impression that there is no other color scheme used really commonly elsewhere, so the change would be slightly beneficial. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, and the talk is over.--R8R (talk) 20:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

IMO, all colors should be common (not just the f and p you mentioned). What I did was a random set.

I don't mind changing the colors (also in the image; expect that to spread world-wiki-wide). But I'd like to hear & see what that "common" usage is. As I found (the third, webelements usage), it varies.

I don't expect a "reliable source" quality of proof. Just some site images (from serious sites) will do. Of the source (book title?) of the picture you can provide. The only hurry we have is, that if we want to spread this www, a change better be early (days not months). -DePiep (talk) 20:59, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Gee, my chaotic reasoning. I restart below

• From scratch.

The new colors I used (see 20:45, 12 July 2014) were associated at random by me. That is, for the hue ("yellow=f-block" decision, and so all five of them). The tone and softness is decided from contrast reasons, and is not for discussion here.

R8R says that there is a commonly used scheme (like: "yellow=p-block").

I can agree with that without much ado, but I found other "common" color schemes as well. For example, [www.webelements.com webelements] (a serious site) has another scheme for the four blocks.

My Google search, and the Russian/Cyrillic link provided by R8R, does not show a common scheme. That is, before eliminating the less-relevant sites.

So I ask R8R, or anyone else: is there a good example of some commonly used color scheme? We do not need "Reliable source" quality, but some serious sources will do. If there is one, I will change the color scheme for blocks (including the commons image; the one that might spread over iw).

Until now, I have not met a common color scheme. -DePiep (talk) 21:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Here's one from the JINR, using yellow-green-blue-red for s-p-d-f. This makes me think that maybe there might not be one common colour scheme, except that everyone seems to use some combination of red, green, blue, and yellow. Here's an 8-column form, also from them: they use the same colour set, although now leaving Db onwards greyed out (which makes sense: their ground state electron configurations are unknown, so block assignments would be tentative). Double sharp (talk) 00:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Added JINR to the #Color schemes table (a new set). You want me to think extra about 'grey' colored blocks? -DePiep (talk) 02:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

That would be the block equivalent of "unknown chemical properties", I think. Double sharp (talk) 05:57, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. You need that one? "G-block (predicted)" doesn't serve there? -DePiep (talk) 10:48, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Not the predicted g-block colour, but the predicted d-block and p-block colours would do the job. So we may not need it. Double sharp (talk) 15:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I found the colour scheme I've contributed above on a poster periodic table from Australia. It seems to fit the elements in their blocks better: s-block is reactive, p-block is found in the air, f-block is "earthy", d-block occupies the remaining common colour. As for the noble gases which are coloured differently there, that colour could be used somehow for the g-block. But in all honesty, I think R8R's solution is the best compromise – all other schemes (excluding JINR) are one swap away. Parcly Taxel 01:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Another interesting catch. But what do they say about E113--E118 down under, d-block/yellow then? And the noble gases separated? Could it be that these are more like category colors, with a only a shading diff between group 1-2, and Ln-An (quite understandable)? And the predictions E113+ more by an assumption? -DePiep (talk) 11:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I also see a shading gradient over groups 13 to 17. I suspect that these are not block colours per se, but rather category colours meant to also suggest the blocks. Double sharp (talk) 14:53, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

This is a very old table. Back then 113 wasn't even discovered and 110 hadn't been named. The legend below 7p says "113, 115, 117 are not known; their expected positions are shown here." So nothing of interest there. Parcly Taxel 15:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Huh? I wasn't talking about E113–E118. Regardless, DePiep's point still stands for Fl, Lv, and E118. Double sharp (talk) 15:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Let's relax. Even Parcly Taxel mentioned in their OP, about this variant, that this was not a proposal, just a note. I was triggered by the variety of schemes we meet, even in serious places. To me this signals that a lot of different legends (color keys) are around, and that we are right in researching/making/using them straightened. -DePiep (talk) 20:47, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

(Arbitrary break to make editing easier)

• Enough. R8R Gtrs, if you can give me one serious source for a color set (whichever one) within seven days, I'll make it that one. If not, it stays as random as I made it - and as it clearly is (undecided, randomly). -DePiep (talk) 21:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

  Here's a chemistry textbook by Novosibirsk State University (in Russian), which was the first Google hit for "таблица менделеева цвета" ("Mendeleev's table colors"). It says (I'll translate):

  In many editions of the Periodic table s, p, d, and f elements are highlighted differently. Cells of the elements with s orbitals being filled are usually colored red. Cells of the elements with p orbitals being filled are colored yellow. Therefore, red cells contain s elements, yellow ones contain p elements.

  Blue denotes d elements, and green denotes f elements. Colors are auxiliary and may be different in different editions of the table. Nevertheless, you should be able to navigate in a back-and-white table as well.

  (English is not brilliant here; however, I can assure you the language is not brilliant in the original book as well)

  (By the way, the next hit containing a table differing elements by blocks only is this, it uses the same color scheme; there were no more tables differing elements by blocks alone among first 15 hits. Google Images hits show this scheme most commonly)

  Is that convincing? (I remind you I see this scheme around me, in real world; if you're not satisfied with this book, I can go make photos, they'll be using the scheme (although, I would prefer you believing I can and not asking me to go make photos :))--R8R (talk) 22:39, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

No. What the fun are you saying? Your Novisibirsk link shows pink and yellow (for s and p; really, red-yellow is my original thing for s-p). Do you actually understand my question?: please provide some serious source. A next post from Vladivostiok I won't even open. If your block colors are so much "all around", then you can make something of this. Actually where do you see these colors "all around" then? -DePiep (talk) 23:13, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't get it. Text says red and yellow, I suggest red and yellow (we currently have red and green), picture near the text shows pink and yellow, pink is a shade of red (pink: Pink is a pale red color, which takes its name from the flower of the same name.[2][3]), what's the problem? The book is from the Novosibirsk State University; isn't a state university a serious source?

Regarding your second question, I can see them in the Faculty of Chemistry in my uni, had three tables in my school with this color scheme, pocket-sized PTs sold in bookstores, etc.--R8R (talk) 00:17, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I admit, it says: s-block=red(/pink) ₄Be, p-block=yellow ₅B. And nothing more. Is this your source then? But may we expect four colors? I only ask for serious. See you in a week. -DePiep (talk) 00:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

@DePiep: There are no serious sources out there for any of the schemes. We must compromise. R8R's solution is the best based on Lev-distance: as I said above all other schemes presented thus far are one swap away. Parcly Taxel 00:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

The quote in italics I added is written there, you can Google Translate-check it (note the translations are imperfect, but still understandable). Under the last table, read the para starting with "In many editions of the Periodic Table," and the next one.--R8R (talk) 00:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't your first quote still say "Colors are auxiliary and may be different in different editions of the table."? If so I don't see this as a strong argument. And what to make of the JINR's table? Nevertheless, the fact that they say "usually" for the respective colours (e.g. the f-block elements being usually coloured green) makes me wonder if perhaps this is the most common scheme, though naturally not the only one? Double sharp (talk) 02:04, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Of course, it does; but this is natural, given we're talking about a scheme usually used. From the last fact, you can conclude other schemes are possible (including the JINR's one), but are not too common.--R8R (talk) 11:40, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Given the "usually" qualifier, I think I can support your scheme. It is apparently the most common, although you will see other schemes as well. Double sharp (talk) 13:06, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Changes in {Infobox element}

We have some 125 element infoboxes (see Category:Periodic table infobox templates). I have prepared changes to change the box into a wiki-standard {{Infobox}}. See Change_Infobox_element_to_use_{Infobox} for an overview and comments. Some questions are open.

You can check your favorite element for changes (e.g., fluorine). An all-parameter demo is here. -DePiep (talk) 13:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC) See page {{Index to chemical element infoboxes}}

Absolutely brilliant! Just one thing needed before it gets deployed PT-wide: there needs to be a switch for British spelling so that it remains consistent with the article text. Parcly Taxel 01:09, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I like this a lot, especially the way refs are handled. Only thing is, is it possible have the horizontal cell borders back? As it stands I'm slightly worried the reader's eye might shift and get to the wrong data, especially because neighbouring data often has the same units. Maybe I'm being overly concerned, though. Double sharp (talk) 01:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

(Oh, and one more thing: under "atomic properties", could we also have metallic radius and ionic radius? We have this info for most elements.) Double sharp (talk) 01:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I've swapped the new version of the element infobox on fluorine as a live trial. See what you think. Parcly Taxel 01:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I reverted it. It's still a trial, and when it is deployed, it should be deployed on every element page, not just F. Double sharp (talk) 04:24, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The sandbox might still get some changes and could easily show disruption (in article fluorine then), or even British English ;-). What you can do now, is edit {{Infobox fluorine/sandbox}} (especially splice ref's, into the new e.g. |melting point ref=. The _ref additions are likely to stay). And the F compare page helps checking. When we switch the layout, this F sandbox can be copied too - tadaa. -DePiep (talk) 10:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for this initial support.

Engvar re PT about British spelling (colour, vapour, ionisation): corrected, US spelling is default. Infobox spelling must follow article engvar spelling, which is en-US usually. We have one exception: phosphorus is written in en-UK, so the infobox follows saying "vapour" (by having set |engvar=en-uk). No changes should happen. (compare) Y -DePiep (talk) 10:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

horizontal cell borders back (re Double sharp). I think technically it can be done, but I hesitate to go that route. {{Infobox}}, the super-meta-template, is set up this way, without these cellborders. Of course, since we are used to these lines here for the elements, it is a change of habit for us. But how about the reader?

People who designed this infobox layout must have thought about it, with a very keen eye for readability and page overview (the look). I remember they are very into font-selection and whitespace (default for our pages, headers, &tc.) including font-size, line-height and what you have. And they also tend to rely on whitespace (by pixel, letter-spacing, margins) to support readability from each and every angle, both running text, page overview from a distance, and boxes & tables.

I can understand that basic infobox formatting (no cell borders, use whitespace & regularity to show any structure), and I trust them to follow them. Even with our scientific numbers and units and super/subscripts and brackets, the regularity per row and per column is maintained, and the human eye is very sensitive to that regularity. It recognizes vertical & horizontal invisible 'lines' extremely well. And of course our readers appreciate (unknowingly) that all infoboxes have this similar look (building, station, religion).

If you see specific unclarities (when a label or an element fact turns out a mess indeed), please notify.

In short, I think we must have strong arguments to overrule this default, and I don't see them yet. -DePiep (talk) 10:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

From here, some more details.

(illustration: I ran into them page designers recently when they wanted to increase article page margin: more whitespace left & right of the article body, for text & images alike - at the cost of text & image width. I had to oppose that because it would break our basic periodic table, which has the element names so is critical in width by the pixel. That proposal was stopped. But it illustrates how they think about page view)

I also noted this subtlety: when data is over two lines (by <br> or by wrapping at a space), these lines are closer to each other then when a new label/data row is opened. Barely visible, but it helps. See for example the list of values for Young--Mohs--Brinell in infoboxes C.

Related: I removed repetition of labels (e.g., Thermal conductivity in C). In one situation this regularity I found broken: when two crystal structures are present (C). With the small images added, the regularity was gone. For that case I decided to repeat the label "crystal structure".

I'll try to find some more links on this. -DePiep (talk) 10:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• Add new data rows for metallic radius and ionic radius (re Double sharp): into separate process. Moved to section #Content changes in {Infobox_element} below. I prefer keeping content changes separate, to be able manage 200 parameters (and after the layout change, a lot of edits are needed in all boxes). Once the new layout is a bit stable, content changes are piece of cake. One can flesh them out beforehand btw (units? at state? prefix?) -- there. -DePiep (talk) 10:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
• "(predicted)" into a _comment (note to myself) The heavier elements often have properties "predicted" or "extrapolated". (Fr, Rf, E118, E119). I plan to give these properties a _comment option (a _comment is added end-of-line, after a wrapping space. Always unedited. It can have its own reference in the parameter). (note on Rt: the comment in crystal structure should wrap or break). -DePiep (talk) 10:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

This should also resolve & remove the weird question marks as used in Fr: "m.p. ? 300 K, ? 27 °C, ? 80 °F". -DePiep (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

(Jee, why not simply indent & reply, and keep a topic together?)

• Standard atomic weight: OK in General properties section, or better into Periodic Table section? -DePiep (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Think it works better in the Periodic Table section, as it's one of the pieces of information most commonly included in periodic tables. Also, it doesn't fit well with the non-numerical properties in "General properties", IMHO.

About Standard atomic weight then. I have put it in the PT section, right below atomic number. So for C is hints to the 6 but not 12 fact. -DePiep (talk) 23:43, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• • OK about cell borders, then.

(Jee, why not simply indent & reply, and keep a topic together?)

• • Do you think the (comment) section could also include references? Currently refs must be sandwiched between the values and the hardcoded units, which is somewhat unaesthetic and also looks like an exponent. Double sharp (talk) 12:28, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

(Jee, why not simply indent & reply, and keep a topic together?)

There is no comment section (as there are sections "Physical properties" and "Isotopes", with their colored header bar). I'll reply for xyz_comment parameters, like |vapor pressure comment=, |covalent radius comment=. Any |xyz_comment= value will be added at the end of the data line. It is preceded by a regular space, so it can wrap a line there. The whole |xyz_comment= value you enter is reproduced, without changes. So no brackets are added, no italics -- If needed, you add them to the parameter input. Same for the reference: just add it, it will show. Because there is no unit there to handle (while for units like 'K' we must split the value-reference).

Intended future behaviour of the infobox:

{{infobox wikipedium

|melting point K=200

|melting point ref=<ref>{{cite|author=DePiep|...}}</ref>

|melting point comment=''(This is disputed)''<ref>{{cite|author=Double sharp|...}}</ref>

}}

(I hope the example does not distract too much. Can't resist creating an OR hoax, too much fun).

Shows:

Melting point	200_K[1]_(This is disputed)[2]	Y
Boiling point	350[3] (disputed)[4] K	N

_ = NBSP, _ = regular space (can wrap).

So ref ^[1] after the unit (separate input), and ref ^[2] stays with the comment as inputted. Both show correct.

Gone/not needed will be the results as in the second row, all bad for obvious reasons. -DePiep (talk) 13:21, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. All the element infoboxes should use the first row's format for predictions/extrapolations/etc.. Double sharp (talk) 13:53, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Y Will add those xyz_comment params (few dozen) then.

-DePiep (talk) 14:10, 19 July 2014 (UTC) (m distraction removed 21:15, 19 July 2014 (UTC))

Y Added. -DePiep (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Image sizes. re Christian75. And it looks like you invalidated |image size= (see ₁₅P). -DePiep (talk) 23:05, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
• Infoboxes up for comparision, available:

To compare: (page Template:Infobox <element>/testcases):

• H
• He
• Li
• B
• C
• N
• O
• F
• Al
• P
• Ti
• Fe
• Zn
• Ge
• Y
• Nb
• Tc
• Ag
• Xe
• Cs
• Lu
• Ir
• Au
• Hg
• Pb
• Po
• At
• Fr
• U
• Pu
• Bk
• Cf
• Rf
• Cn
• E117
• E118
• E119
• E120
• all up test
• full index by PT
• This list: []

After the layout-switchover, individual infoboxes (like {infobox fluorine}) need edits to show all desired outcome. "Pilot edits" are made in the sandbox (infobox fluorine/sandbox), and now show the text in target form.

If you have another element you'd like to check & pilot-edit, I can create the compare-page. -DePiep (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Content changes in {Infobox element}

This section is for content changes to {{Infobox element}} (ideas & proposals). To simplify the process, these are separated from the major #Changes in {Infobox element}, which are layout, format & show only. -DePiep (talk) 10:37, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• Add metallic radius and ionic radius (Atomic properties)

Oh, and one more thing: under "atomic properties", could we also have metallic radius and ionic radius? We have this info for most elements. Double sharp (talk) 01:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC) (moved to this section -DePiep (talk) 10:37, 19 July 2014 (UTC))

Any suggestion for params, fixed unit, ordering position in the infobox, specials? And I don't know if "most have this values" is a good reason to include. Something with notablility. (I discovered there is band width band gap, only used by Si and Ge -- but to the point). -DePiep (talk) 22:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• About stp, Standard conditions for temperature and pressure. As it is now, we assume it silently, and the data page mentions it (scrolls and clicks away). We only have a first mentioning like (in future layout)

Density 1.696 g/L (0 °C, 101.325 kPa).

Nowhere we say that this is for all similar values. Shouldn't we add a footnote that says like: "at stp=0 °C, 101.325 kPa, unless stated otherwise" (I cut it short). {{Chembox}} has it by default: Ammonia, Carbon monoxide. -DePiep (talk) 22:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Pronounciation audio. See Template:Infobox rutherfordium. It has IPA /ˌrʌðərˈfɔːrdiəm/ . The audio link opens another page. We could make that an on-page soundbutton. -DePiep (talk) 14:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
• Crystal structure. See #Crystal_structure_checks below. IMO does not hinder or delay the layout change. -DePiep (talk) 21:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
• Allotropes. The element infobox show have a label+data that says: this element has allotropes a/b/c etc (as descriptive as needed). -DePiep (talk) 02:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
• Alternative name(s) that can say 'aluminum', 'element 118'. -DePiep (talk) 08:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Sandbh's post-transition metal sandbox

Seems complete, minus a few refs. What do you think, is it OK to put in mainspace already and change the "other metals" category back to "post-transition metals" now? Double sharp (talk) 07:41, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

A quick look at the sandbox - no mention in for example Ga chemistry of the effects of d-block contraction where in that case Ga³⁺ chemistry and Al³⁺ chemistry are similar due to, inter alia, their similar ionic radii. The draft also exhibits the difficulty presented by Al - a good metal whereas Ga and In are not ansd B is a non-metal. It is a reactive metal forming the Al³⁺ ion see Henderson- he even quotes the strucure of corundum as containing Al³⁺- so I don't think that using that reference to justify the covalent statement is justified. Overall my impression of the draft article is that it is focussed on the properties of the bulk metals (and their alloys- (why?)) rather than on their chemistry. For me its also muddied by mixing in the interesting historical description of the coinage metals as post-transition (Demings book was pretty elementary as I recall and went to later editions), which then leads to a large section on them, rather than a focus on the main story, groups 13 and 14. Axiosaurus (talk) 10:48, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I meant that it looked complete enough to put into mainspace as it is and then remove the other metals category, because now every section had content in it. As you say, there are several important omissions that would have to be rectified, but IMHO we should get rid of "other metals" ASAP, given that we have a better alternative in the form of PTMs. Yes, the main story is groups 13 and 14, and not so much groups 11 and 12 (which are in any case not always called PTMs). The latter should definitely be mentioned, but the article should go a lot more into the elements' chemical properties.

Still, it looks good enough to go into mainspace and replace "other metal". Double sharp (talk) 11:59, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

If someone pings me at switchover time, I'll do the template sweep. Is Sandbh themselves in for it too? -DePiep (talk) 12:09, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

@DePiep: We're all in it. Better to have stability than pure chaos. Parcly Taxel 01:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree it's good enough to go into the main space, noting some fine-tuning is required. If I move it will I lose the talk page stuff, given the the history of previous moves? Sandbh (talk) 05:48, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

re Sandbh, about these moves & histories: you can copy-paste your text into the article (do take credit in the editsummary, maybe with a link to your sandbox for history). Then the essential page moves (OM into PTM article+talk of course) within mainspace will simply keep their histories available (the history of your sandbox edits however are not in sight). Since this is a technical move (consensus decided before), you can ask admin assistance without re-invoking a discussion. Is this an answer to your point? -DePiep (talk) 20:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Wow, Sandbh. I just read through the page history of OM/PTM&... I say: you very better ask WP:RM/TR for tech assistance for this (uncontroversial!) move. Even old "poor metal" history may be involved. -DePiep (talk) 21:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

PS: are we going as far as changing the category name in our periodic table templates to PTM too? Or are we keeping "other metal" and linking that to PTM? Sandbh (talk) 06:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we're changing the category name to PTM, given that Al has sometimes been described as one and hence doesn't constitute a problem. As for the talk page stuff, it is definitely very complicated, but I think it is solvable. Hopefully we won't need to change the page title again. :-) Double sharp (talk) 06:16, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Keep the wording "other metals" somewhere in article space? I thought that was the issue: use the name PTM. I guess the new text describes all the border issues ("which are (the) PTMs?"), and so no secondary naming is needed. The periodic table legend names & links will be "PTM" I understand. Or do I need some more reading & understanding (that says: use "other metal")? (Outside of User:Sandbh/sandbox#Other_metals). -DePiep (talk) 10:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we would always use PTM, except in the section of Sandbh's sandbox which talks about the name "other metal". Double sharp (talk) 10:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

This confirms what I meant to say. OK then. -DePiep (talk) 15:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Axiosaurus: thank you for the feedback, which I appreciate was based on a quick look. My aim was to have a balance of information about relevant physical properties and chemical properties. On alloys, that is to show that Al can be become more of a good metal and that, even so, these alloys retain certain weaknesses. For Sn this was to contrast "tin as a weak metal" with its curious role as a hardening agent. When I describe elements I mostly start with their outward properties and then look at their chemical properties. Many chemists wouldn't often work with many of the elements in their pure forms (see first asterisk note, here) however to me the stories of the elements are about more than their chemical properties. About Henderson, I'll look again at him. Deming went to a 2nd edition in 1947, in which he continued to treat the group 11 metals as post-transition metals. Some later authors have treated group 11 as post-transition metals. I'll see if I can find some citations. The extra content about group 11 is there to explain why they are sometimes described as post-transition metals. Sandbh (talk) 05:48, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

To put the coinage metals into perspective- read Greenwood where he says that they are transition metals and counters the historical parallels drawn between these metals and the alkali metals. Perhaps this historical detail about group 11 and its placement should be put in the article group 11 element. And as for references, "Wikipedia:citation overkill" perhaps. Anyway I have no problem with this draft replacing poor metals, (you know my views about including Al in the post transition metals, it jars, like saying different to rather than different from, but I guess that is a function of my classical education!), after all any problems and shortcomings can be changed in mainspace. Axiosaurus (talk) 14:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Crystal structure checks

Please take a look at .../crystal_structure#Examples. These are new presentations of crystal structures, for the element's infoboxes (text & image). -DePiep (talk) 22:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Background. Our {Infobox element} shows an image of the crystal structure. In every individual element's infobox, one can add a |crystal structure= name. Then this name produces both a wikilink and an image. There is also a second option (|crystal structure 2=). Best see the carbon example. All very nice.

I made a new setup for all these links and images: see these .../crystal_structure#Examples. To me it looks like our infoboxes and also article Periodic table (crystal structure), can use a quality boost. My request is to check those crystal names & links & labels & images. I myself can't find my way in a maze of lattices & crystals & 'diamond cubic'. -DePiep (talk) 21:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Image size in the new infobox

I added a suggestion not to force the size of the images in the new infobox (but use the user preference size, and otherwise the default MediaWiki thumbnail size). see - do anybody like the idea? Christian75 (talk) 00:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

As Christian75 knows, I am working with this very sandbox while they are injection trials, without communication. It is not serious to "propose" this here only as a mean to evade cooperation explicitly. -DePiep (talk) 00:41, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I have suggested it before (for template:Chembox), see - nothing happend. This time I did it myself, and you didnt like it? An example is Template:Infobox_hydrogen/sandbox2 - the size of the image has the size thumnailsize which logged in users can change in Special:Preferences/appearance/thumbnail size (and defailt size if not logged in) Christian75 (talk) 05:36, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

What I didn't like I have written. How come you did not read that? -DePiep (talk) 10:12, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

As for the Chembox suggestion: you had a mistake in your assumptions, and then there was an answer. -DePiep (talk) 10:18, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

From here, a restart. {od}

• I like the hydrogen/sandbox2. And after some studying & testing, I understand most of it. So |image size= can be used to set (override) the default size. IP-users have a size set too (the image does not explose into pagewide). Empty parameter |image size= does not disrupt. All very nice.

Christian75, if you find your code is stable, I'd ask you to move it into {{Infobox element/sandbox}}. Then it is part of the upcoming format change, and we can see the sandboxes tested. If you need some more test with variables or params, maybe you like to do that in /sandbox4.

After the changes, I'll check all infoboxes for unwanted setting of image sizes 1 & 2 (to be removed). -DePiep (talk) 10:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Christian75. I copy-pasted your code from {{Infobox element/sandbox4}} into {{Infobox element/sandbox}} [3]. So now in testcases for live. I removed any superfluous settings from the infoboxes (like |image size=249px) using AWB. Some stayed for being useful, as in oxygen. (Pls understand that during your previous edits, I was juggling over 200 parameters: delete, rename, add or change effect). I thank you for this contribution. -DePiep (talk) 15:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Mav

Our founder has retired on 17 July, and it occurs to me that it may be a good idea to get an FA done to thank him for the whole thing. How about Be or Th, both of which he said he wanted to do, but never got around to? (Be would be very good, being the article that started the whole project...) Double sharp (talk) 09:45, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I have started work on Th at User:Double sharp/Thorium. Staying off working on the parts related to Th as a nuclear fuel, though, until I learn more about that. I can write on the metal itself and its chemistry first. Think the experience of writing Np would be helpful, although Th has more natural occurrence to speak of. Double sharp (talk) 10:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks like Th will have to do without [4]. Anyway, I've seen fine edits (and nothing else) by Mav 'recently' (that is last few years, by their clock). But hey, a 2002 contributor! What are their edits that even today shape this WP:ELEMENTS? I want to see them 200x edits! Good links & diffs please! -DePiep (talk) 02:41, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Declaration 995

I have talked with Nergaal, and he's had enough of the discussions happening here. Indeed, even I am getting tired of it all. So to resolve all our debates here (and on our noticeboard), let me put forth Declaration 995:

• Lutetium and lawrencium under scandium and yttrium, without the "rare earth metals" category.
• Leave the IUPAC systematic names (ununtrium, ununpentium, etc.) as they are.
• Post-transition metals for the metals after group 12; they will not include zinc, cadmium, mercury or copernicium.
• Individual periods to get their own articles, rather than getting merged into one article about periods.

Endless discussion here has not moved the position closer to a consensus, but farther away from it. So let us not discuss here. Just accept the points here, which were the status quo before the "war" began, and move on with article improvement. Parcly Taxel 00:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

An "endless discussion" about your #4: individual period articles? Where? Discussion ran 12:59, 10 July 2014 –13:33, 12 July 2014; was implemented 20 July following. No outcome for #2 systematic names vs 'element xxx' names? Please take another look. And notice that many talks actually did produce a change by consensus, but they are in the archives. Visible are current talks, consensus within eyesight: this, this, this.

Could it be that because the outcome did not satisfy you, you want throw out all disucussion? You want !voting in a scientific topic? Well, there might be a reason why even IUPAC & the RL scientific community is not unisono in such topics. So far, so good, no problem in this. Though forking discussions, as you initiated here, does not improve any outcome quality, and usually is a drowner. The red flag word is that you 'talked with Nergaal'. Is that the communication process you propose? Nergaal is free not to talk, but that is no excuse for edit-warring or for disrupting discussions by proxy. -DePiep (talk) 09:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that even you don't follow the consensus you made, so in effect there still is no consensus. I'll be waiting on sulfur; I'll see you there when you finally realise that constructive editing is better than any debate. Parcly Taxel 11:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Re your opening line "The problem is ...", why did not you say anything like that in your OP? Actually, you said the opposite (namely there being no consensus). And if you want to press me on something, first provide some quote & diff please. Next question, what exactly are you waiting for? Did you or anyone else ask me for some consensus implementation, I have missed? This comment is vague, you leave me confused. Note that you are invited to base you opening remark, first and foremost. And please specify which comments are your own and Nergaal's, respectively. -DePiep (talk) 14:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Consensus is firmly against you for #2. It's just that it has not been pushed through, because it requires an RM and that would need an MOS ruling. It took years to get pnictogen where it currently is: it took months to get the metalloid discussion complete. Now, you are free to write this. In fact, so is anyone else. And there is no war here, just discussion. No need to rush. We will have an improved periodic table this way. When you rush, you tend to miss stuff. If you don't want to read the discussion, I cannot force you to, nor can anyone else. But it does mean that you will not know the context, and you will not know the current state of the discussion: you will just see any change that is not in mainspace yet as having a lack of consensus for it.

And what to make of the period articles? I implemented that, and I was somewhat unwilling to do so quickly because not everyone had commented – though naturally everyone was implicitly invited to – but I felt that the overwhelming arguments against having such articles were enough. And yet now you call it a war, as though I was fighting against you. No, I am not. I simply do what I think is best for the project. If you think I did something wrong, you can revert it, and discuss. Then we can come to a consensus. That is just the WP:BRD cycle. But if we ignore discussion, how do we get a consensus? How do we get anything done?

You are right about article work, and I agree that this discussion takes up time. But some of it is article-related, and even more has to do with the presentation of our PT, which naturally has a big impact on articles. Do you think that nonmetal would be a GA without all this discussion? That metalloid would be an FA? That other metal (soon to be moved) would be a B-class article? Even some of the content alkali metal, chalcogen, and neptunium is indebted to this long discussion through many steps. If nothing else, reading it will teach you a lot about some elements: and is that not necessary to contribute to articles? That is why I can give comments and write good articles: I have done some reading and discussing, the latter of which helps me understand things.

When I have done reading, propose something, and not much discussion occurs, like for Fl's categorization, there is no opportunity for improvement, and we cannot know whether we have done what is best for our readers. Double sharp (talk) 18:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Your #1 was not the status quo ante !bellum. That would have been Sc/Y/*/**, with Sc/Y/Lu/Lr in the long form only. Double sharp (talk) 18:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

If you will see Nergaal's talk page you'll find that I was discussing about the FTRC for the period 1 elements. Nergaal said he was frustrated at how you handled the controversies: "debate a lot and then ignore the fragile consensus that was reached". That includes the FTRC at hand: you already reached a consensus not to merge or move any article, including the individual period articles, but you merged anyway.

Never mind about that though; I know where you're coming from. I can already tell that some editors here are getting a little moody, which severely hinders discussion. So please calm down and state the current consensus on our noticeboard issues (where the position lies). In fact, I think it'd be a wonderful idea to have weekly summaries of the debates posted in a dedicated section of the talk. Parcly Taxel 23:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC)