Talk:James Joyce

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article request: Joyce biographer/critic

• No harm in asking; ignore if you don't wanna do it. Joyce biographer/critic Herbert Gorman some redlinks; see gorman and gorman and Gorman. He wrote.. maybe the first biography? Spent time with Joyce etc. • Serviceable†Villain 02:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I would say ″Yes″.Keith 02:03, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Removed link (slideshow not in the link)

Joyce's Dublin – slideshow by Life magazine

Template:James Joyce

Why is "The Cats of Copenhagen" included as one of the works of Joyce in the Template? That seems entirely misguided. "Cats" is a throwaway piece of writing, a whimsical letter to a child, that only achieved independence when it was published in 2012. If "Cats" is one of the works, why not "The Cat and the Devil"? Indeed, why not Danis Rose's "Finn's Hotel"? Rc65 (talk) 04:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Do these have their own Wikipedia entries? This might be why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.110.83 (talk) 14:33, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

James Joyce
Joyce in Zurich, c. 1918
Born	James Augustine Aloysius Joyce (1882-02-02)February 2, 1882 Rathgar, Dublin, Ireland
Died	January 13, 1941(1941-01-13) (aged 58) Zurich, Switzerland
Occupation	Novelist, poet
Language	English
Alma mater	University College Dublin
Notable works	Ulysses (1922), Dubliners (1914), A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (1916), Finnegans Wake (1939)
Spouse	Nora Barnacle
Signature

In the article, there's a comment:

<!-- Please do not add an infobox. The idea has been discussed and rejected many times. -->

However, there's no reference to these discussions, and there are none on this talk page, and I see no reason for there not to be an infobox (they're highly useful, and there's obvious precedent for its appropriateness). What is this comment on about?

Jameshfisher (talk) 08:09, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

The talk page archives contain several such discussions, and reasons why an infobox is not used here. Kablammo (talk) 08:25, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the most recent poll/consensus was in 2010, I am writing this in March 2014 - perhaps have a quick poll? My objection to it(as an outside editor) is that I think it looks stylised just to have the signature and the portrait. Somebody coming here to find out who Joyce was would be served better by an infobox outlining his literary movement/era etc. Thoughts? KingHiggins (talk) 20:26, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• Part of the anti-infobox argument was that "Influences" and "Influenced" were impossible to accommodate. But those two keywords are no longer supported. Choor monster (talk) 17:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I concur that an infobox should be added. Infoboxes are helpful to readers as they provide basic information in a quickly accessible manner. I expect that many readers come to this article looking for a quick answer to when/where Joyce was born, the name of his spouse, etc., and it is much faster to see this in an infobox than to have to scan through the lengthy article. Times have changed since 2010 and infoboxes are now standard practice. I note that the following articles on authors of similar stature all have one: Marcel Proust, Virginia Woolf, William Faulkner, Mark Twain, Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald. --Albany NY (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Consensus change change. I've decided to be bold and add an infobox, because I and the other editors in this discussion believe it adds a great deal of value to the article. I encourage others to add appropriate facts to its fields. --Albany NY (talk) 02:37, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Modernist reverted my addition of the infobox with the comment "per consensus". Clearly the comments by myself and others in this thread show that the consensus about not including an infobox is no longer in force. We need to have a discussion about this, not simply revert each other's changes, which I fear could devolve into an edit war. I am therefore starting a request for comment (see below). For reference, the previous discussion on the topic is here. --Albany NY (talk) 16:47, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I've put a copy of the suggested infobox that was removed in this section as an aid to debate. --RexxS (talk) 19:05, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you - but goodness, what's all the fuss about? It looks perfectly innocuous. The dates need to be DMY, and the works a list, but thats trivial to fix, and no reason for its remobval. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:24, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Should this article have an infobox?

Should the article James Joyce have an infobox? (see discussion under the previous heading and below for background) --Albany NY (talk) 16:47, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes; to provide our readers with a quick, handy summary of his key biographical facts, and to emit them as machine-readable metadata. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:02, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Qualified Yes. Infoboxes work best in biographies when they can summarise the key information relevant to the subject's life and works. There may be cases where many key facts are not known, or are disputed, or are too nuanced to admit of a summary that is not misleading. It is therefore important to gain some degree of consensus on the likely content of an infobox when making the decision on whether an infobox would improve the article. It seems to me from looking at the infobox which was recently reverted (see section above) that there are sufficient key pieces of incontrovertible information about Joyce and his works to make an infobox useful for the casual reader. I agree with Andy that the provision of microformats that aid re-users of our content is a valuable bonus. --RexxS (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

One of the problems is that our Joyceans have a pretentious attitude. Joyce is Joyce, see, and that means his article must get the Joyce-is-special treatment. What's good for our readers is irrelevant. The master knew better, see, about what people ought to read, and so do they. For an explicit, rather egregious, example of this attitude causing damage to the article, see this diff [1], where I removed the long-standing completely ridiculous alt-caption, apparently written so that our blind readers also get the maximum Joyce-is-special immersion. Choor monster (talk) 10:39, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

• Yes. Its useful with writers to be able to see quickly and at a glance birth dates/death and other material which provides at a glance material for time-line information. While I studied Joyce and am fairly familiar with his work being reminded of an exact date to determine, for example, who might have written at about the same time he did can be useful information if accessible quickly. In research and teaching its important to remember that there are multiples ways to present information, and for different reasons. An info box provides a quick-glance kind of information, a lead, a summary for an in-depth look at the information, and the article itself an in-depth scrutiny. While presentation formats for information may overlap; they do not have the same uses.If we are providing help for the reader my question is always why not. (Littleolive oil (talk) 19:09, 4 June 2015 (UTC))

• Yes, to supply a reader who never heard the name before with at least data at-a-glance about when and where he lived (and died) and what he did. These readers exist, the English Wikipedia is a source for readers around the globe, who can translate structured information more easily than prose. Compare Beethoven, inserted after a discussion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:56, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Il lupo perde il pelo ma non il vizio - translation

I have noticed that the translation for the quotation 'Il lupo perde il pelo ma non il vizio' has a small error, 'pelo' in Italian means hair, not skin. Consequently the translation should be: 'the wolf may lose his hair but he won't lose his vice'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.252.108.91 (talk) 18:26, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

New article Finn's Hotel (published lost Joyce works)

This just passed through AFC; could someone take a squint to more smoothly integrate into the other Joyce works on Wikipedia? Add it to the appropriate place on the Joyce template, give it the right cats, etc? Also it's a little bare, and I understand there was some interesting controversy about this that could maybe be better covered in the article. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:27, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Syphilis

Kevin Birmingham The Most Dangerous Book has a chapter where he seems to have nailed the case down that yes, Joyce had syphilis, and yes, it was quite crippling. See also his Annotations in a very recent issue of Harper's, I think last month's. Choor monster (talk) 17:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Only "in the modernist avant-garde"?

James Joyce is not "one of the most influential writers in the modernist avant-garde of the early 20th century". James Joyce is "one of the most influential writers of the early 20th century all around the world".--Sürrell (talk) 13:22, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

ːːHe, he. What the hell you say? Only "of the early 20th century?" I reserve my opinion. I re-serve my (spanish) o-pi-nion. --Sürrell (talk) 22:49, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Infobox reconsideration

Per section above, apparently the infobox format has already been amended and the influenced/influences which was the issue is already removed from the template. Another discussion regarding the matter should be started.EverestXT (talk) 08:24, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I just went ahead and did it. There's a perfectly suitable template that should be completely uncontroversial, and it looked sill with just his portrait and signature anyway. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 06:40, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

There are many problems with infoboxes-- beyond just the "influence" matter (let's consider what will happen when someone invariably tries to add religion here, for example), and apparently "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", since to my eye, the infobox is what looks silly. This is a featured article; please review WP:OWN#Featured articles and gain broader consensus for controversial changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:00, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Somebody will invariably try to add Religion? Really?? You mean, the way people have invariably kept adding "Religion" to the Samuel Beckett infobox? And why do you bother bringing up the long-dead completely non-existent "Influences" issue? You're just flailing, making up crap on the fly.

For comparison, the only explicit acknowledgement in the entire Amos Oz article that he is personally Jewish is in the categories! Choor monster (talk) 11:30, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Aren't you nice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:36, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

And making seriously bogus objections was sweetness and light on your part? Not at all. Choor monster (talk) 16:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Many editors think that infoboxes are inherently problematic, for many reasons, not least of which is the cookie cutter mentality they reinforce. Paul August ☎ 11:56, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and from a purely esthetic point of view, surely the elegantly simple picture and signature are more visually pleasing. Paul August ☎ 12:02, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Many editors think that Wikipedia articles are inherently problematic, for many reasons, and think the problems with infoboxes should be approached like everything else. In particular, many editors think your personal certainty about aesthetics has nothing whatsoever to do with what should or should not be in a Wikipedia article. Choor monster (talk) 16:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

So my views don't count? Paul August ☎ 17:50, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Of course not. Sheesh. Why on earth would you think they count? This is Wikipedia, and what really counts are arguments based on policy and guidelines. Our primary goal is to provide encyclopedic information in ways that readers will find useful, convenient, and properly sourced. Aesthetics? Or worse, your personal sense of aesthetics? No, this is not an art project, and certainly not your personal art project. The only place aesthetics come into play would be in a choice of picture to use or similar concerns. Choor monster (talk) 11:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the argument in question: The argument is now moot. The problem has been solved -- the infobox used doesn't cite any ambiguous info which was the original contention. It follows the same format as most every other article biographical article that is similar. The parties who are contending to the contrary are showing a strong sense of ownership here and that is definitely a non wiki-policy. The problem being solved means that anyone who is further trying to remove the infobox is doing it for 'unreasonable reasons' -- meaning that since the rationale originally cited for removing the infobox has been rectified. Removing teh infobox at this point is simply due to someone not wanting to be wrong in an argument that no longer exists -- which is to say they are doing it for their own personal reasons. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 20:27, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Who died and left you in charge, Ryecatcher773? Edit warring over a featured article? Really? After SandyGeorgia cited the policy that says you were wrong to "just go ahead and do it" in the first place. Whatever "your own personal reasons" for preferring an infobox, two editors—one a permablocked sockpuppet—does not a consensus make. As the hidden text in the article indicated, until you unilaterally deleted it, there have been many discussions on this page of including an infobox in the article and they have rejected it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I seem to have waltzed in to a den of bad faith. (Are more SPIs needed?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:01, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

And who elected anyone an official on this article? Your position as an Admin doesn't excuse you of the responsibility of weighing the evidence I presented and considering the argument at face value -- quite to the contrary actually. And BTW, I made the change over a month ago and no one -- seeing as there are so many who are so concerned with this FA -- even bothered to take notice until yesterday. And moreover, I'm still waiting for a counterpoint to my reasoning, which was elucidated both here and in my edit summary (which obviously no one, including yourself, bothered to read). Wikipedia isn't about ownership. And more importantly, but that isn't even the salient issue here. By not giving me any sort of a counterargument it just shows me exactly what I already suspected about the parties who are arguing against the infobox in the first place... especially now that the grounds for its exclusion have been rendered irrelevant. You automatons are nothing but a bunch of self-righteous control-freaks, which is one major reason why serious academics don't pay Wikipedia much mind in the first place. Have a nice day. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 23:35, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

The "rejected many times" comment refers to an obsolete version of the infobox, where a major objection was the "influences/influenced" parameters were found hopelessly unusable regarding Joyce. The parameters have long been deleted from {{Infobox writer}}, so the previous consensus needs revisiting. And past arguments included lots of "do not like" and "redundancy is redundant", neither of which is an argument.

As a reminder, WP:CONSENSUS is WP:NOTAVOTE. It is determined by WP-based policies, guidelines, common sense, and so on. And so far, current anti-infobox arguments have consisted of irrelevant arguments, obsolete arguments, and appeals to aesthetics. Choor monster (talk) 11:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Choor monster and Ryecatcher773: Although I agree that WP:OWN#Featured articles quite specifically requires "Explaining civilly why sources and policies support a particular version ..." (my emphasis), nevertheless it is far better to attempt to build a consensus before adding an infobox where one has been previously rejected - whatever the reasoning. I've spent considerable time debating the value of infoboxes and I can assure you that personal aesthetics is actually one of the strongest arguments against having an infobox. Fortunately, it is an issue where editors can agree to disagree and I'd suggest that is the best course here. In a section further up (#RfC: Should this article have an infobox?} there is an attempt to debate the question within the framework of an RfC. I'd urge all of the participants in this thread to contribute there. --RexxS (talk) 19:35, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

You can assure me that personal aesthetics is actually one of the strongest arguments against having an infobox. Really? Is this the famed Sixth Pillar, or what? If that is one of the strongest arguments against, than what I'm hearing is that every article whatsoever should have an infobox, because "personal aesthetics" is nowhere, nohow a consideration for anything on WP outside one's personal Userspace and customizations. Choor monster (talk) 10:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Hark, a vagrant

Would it be noteable to discuss the impact that James Joyce has had on comics such as in strip 32 of this webcomic by Kate Beaton? Ranze (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2015 (UTC)