Talk:Anglican–Roman Catholic dialogue

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Requested move 9 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Anglican–Catholic dialogue  — Amakuru (talk) 21:05, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

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Anglican–Roman Catholic dialogue → Catholic–Anglican dialogue – Per WP:Consistency with Catholic–Lutheran dialogue (Talk:Catholic–Lutheran dialogue#Requested move 8 August 2017), and Category:Catholic–Protestant ecumenism. See also relevant discussions: Talk:Theological differences between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, and Talk:Ecclesiastical differences between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Order by size, also in accordance with previously mentioned comparable examples. Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:54, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP common style. I see a different consistency praxis on WP, which says that we put conflicting parties in alphabetical order. Consider not only the examples in OP, but also Israeli–Palestinian conflict and Canada–United States border.Gaioa (talk) 11:25, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
• Support Anglican–Catholic dialogue. This keeps alphabetical order while removing the increasingly deprecated "Roman" phrasing per consistency with Catholic Church and many sub articles.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anglican–Catholic dialogue title

Now that the article has been renamed Anglican–Catholic dialogue, the text needs to match. The "Roman" verbiage is increasingly deprecated on Wikipedia and serves no real purpose here - no one is confused by what "Catholic" refers to in this context. It's also consistent with the main Catholic Church article and many of its other sub-articles.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:18, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

It's a convenient shorthand, but are you aware that the Anglican church is still a catholic church? This isn't helped by WP having terms like catholicism as a redirect to the article on the Roman Catholic church.

It's a fine distinction. But in an article on this distinction, it matters. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:34, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Well aware, thanks, but it's irrelevant. Whether something is technically a "catholic church" has no bearing on the way terms are used in the real world. It's clear what "Catholic" and especially "Catholic Church" mean in this context and no one is likely to be confused.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:44, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes there is the possibility for confusion. The isn't a word limit to articles: nothing is lost by using Roman Catholic (which is standard for British English) and clarification is gained. If this was an article about French-American relations, and "the President" was used to who would it be referring? Roman is not a bad word, it has no negative connotations, it is simply descriptive. While the Roman Catholic Church may claim to be THE Catholic Church, the are other churches and traditions that use it to. When an article concerns two (or more) of these claimants it simply makes sense to use the longer form of Roman Catholic when talking about the Roman Catholic Church. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 16:21, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Real world use is more important than the subjects' claims on the term. In this case, context is clear that "Catholic" and "Catholic Church" refer to, well the Catholic Church. This is perfectly acceptable in British English and has already been adopted at articles with a much greater potential for confusion, such as Catholic Church in the United Kingdom, Catholic Church in Scotland, and Catholic Church in England and Wales.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:33, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, the common name for the Roman Catholic church in British English is the Roman Catholic Church. The examples you have given are specifically about the RCC. This is an article about two churches, therefore there should be an effort to distinguish between them. To continue my analogy from earlier, and in President of the United States we know who "the president" refers to so there is no need for clarification. I'm guessing from your userpage that you are American; assumedly in the US there is no other church the Catholic Church could refer to, but in the UK there is. It is not an offensive description to the best of my knowledge (are you offended by it?), it's a disambiguating term that is regularly used in the UK and so should be used in this article and every British English article where there may be confusion. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 21:40, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

It's a matter of what's being disambiguated. "Anglican-Catholic dialogue" pretty clearly refers to the Anglican and Catholic churches. Perhaps "Roman" could be used in some later passages (not in the introductory sentence) where there might be confusion with Anglo-Catholicism or similar. But no one, in the UK or elsewhere, sees the phrase "Catholic Church" and thinks of the Anglican Church.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:21, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

You've had two people (Brits) point out there could be confusion. Another issue is that there are many Anglo-Catholics who use Anglican Catholic, so there IS confusion in the article name. For the moment, as you suggested here, I'm going to go through and add Roman to the appropriate places (except the lead, so that it reflects the (possibly confusing) article title). Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 19:38, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Actually, scrap that. Given that "International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission" and "Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission" are official names, there is no reason to use the shortened "Catholic Church" here. Even the officaio website is titled "Anglican-Roman Catholic Dialogue"! Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 19:53, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 26 September 2017

Anglican–Catholic dialogue → Anglican–Roman Catholic dialogue – To prevent any confusion with Anglo-Catholicism and due to the fact that the official organisations involved with Anglican-Roman Catholic relations use the longer form (therefore WP:COMMONNAME): "Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission, "Anglican-Roman Catholic Dialogue", "International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission", etc. This is an article that mainly deals with the UK and is therefore written in British English: in British English, Roman Catholic is standard use due to the possibility of confusion. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 20:03, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

• Support. This is an example of a circumstance when even the (Roman) Catholic Church accepts that it needs to use "Roman", as per the names of the bodies listed above, for disambiguation or avoiding offence; because "Catholic" is also used as a self-descriptor by Anglican churches. If that church itself can see the need for the disambiguating term, it seems obvious that we should do the same. TSP (talk) 20:24, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:Consistency in accordance with Catholic–Lutheran dialogue, Category:Catholic–Protestant ecumenism, Catholic Church, Talk:Catholic Church in Armenia, etc. In addition, the last time an addition of "Roman" proposed to add to "Catholic" in an article title or a category, it was dismissed. Yes, Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission was specifically named as such in 1969 under much different circumstances, but that doesn't pertain to the generic, global sense. Ecclesiastical differences between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church is due to WP:Consensus despite Eastern Orthodox Church's official name Orthodox Catholic Church. In that light the argument of TSP (talk · contribs) is invalid, regarding a much smaller Christian denomination that neither contains "Catholic" in its name. Any supplementary references to unknown adherence of Anglo-Catholicism (a perfectly disambiguated name) is not a reference to a denomination, neither to Anglicanism as a whole, and therefore irrelevant. Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:31, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

  I think you mean WP:CONSISTENCY. WP:Consistency is a disambiguation page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  21:27, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - (changed to Neutral, see below) - I'm British, and there is no confusion about this name. The primary topic for "Catholic Church", particularly as the term is used in the UK, is the Roman Catholic Church, and as the Wikipedia article is already at Catholic Church, we maintain consistency by not including the word "Roman" in subarticles like this one. As a procedural note, opening a new RM to reverse one which was closed just two weeks ago is not usually best practice. It would have been better to request a relisting of the above RM, since it was quite poorly attended. But since we're here now, we may as well see this one to its conclusion.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Ah - I didn't know that was something that could be requested either, or would have done so earlier. (Frustratingly, that would by my count have led to an entirely different result.) TSP (talk) 12:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - pinging Gaioa, Andy Dingley and Cuchullain, who participated in the previous RM and discussion on this topic, and have not yet commented here. Just so they're aware of the new RM. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per the last RM of 2 weeks ago. Consistency with the reliable sources and the main articles (Catholic Church, Catholic Church in the United Kingdom, etc.) is important, and the "Roman" use is increasingly deprecated. And frankly, I'm not seeing any disambiguation issue that would resolve. I have a hard time believing that any readers would be misled to thinking that the phrase "Anglican–Catholic dialogue" refers to anything but this subject.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:41, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
• Support I appreciate Amakuru's well-reasoned point about the usage of Catholic Church in the UK (it's the common name there, and virtually all RMs of late agree on that point on all national varieties of English.) The question for me is rather one of precision. The existence of Anglo-Catholics within the global Anglican Communion and the fact that the term actually might be more in vogue outside the U.K. as a form of self-identification should weigh in our minds on this RM. In this case, I think Roman serves a valid purpose and aligns with the name of the official organ. TonyBallioni (talk) 12:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
• Very Strong Support: I think this an obvious rename. The article should reflect the organizations involved, such as the Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission. Roman Catholic also naturally disambiguate among the parties to the dialog, such as the Anglo-Catholics, who are participants/observers on the Anglican side, but not the (Roman) Catholic side. –Zfish118^⋉talk 19:48, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

• Addenda: WP:Consistency is a poor rational for this move, as at least Catholic-Lutheran dialog was only moved in August 2017 based on a similar poorly attended moved discussion: (see: Talk:Catholic–Lutheran_dialogue#Requested_move_8_August_2017). The Lutheran dialog has similar issues, as both side refer to the "Roman Catholic Church" ("Catholic/Vatican", "Lutheran"). If the Lutheran move discussion is reopened, I would support its reversion as well. –Zfish118^⋉talk 15:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support per User:Zfish118. Since the previous RM was so poorly attended (and probably should have been relisted) if there is no consensus in this discussion the title should default to the old title. StAnselm (talk) 20:42, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support. This is a necessary disambiguation. It does not matter one whit whether the average British person finds it ambiguous, since WP isn't written with just them in mind. But the more WP:PRECISE name better fits actual British usage better, matches the proper names at issue, and clarfies that this isn't about Anglo-Catholicism, etc. These confusions do not apply to, e.g. Catholic–Lutheran dialogue. WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:CONCISE are the bottom-rung WP:CRITERIA, and only apply after precision, recognizability, and naturalness are satisfied.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  21:25, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
• Comment. I would call for prudence here. The discussion was close to confirming the WP:Consensus established in the previous move request before multiple users ostensibly were brought here from Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Catholic Church), possibly bordering Wikipedia:Canvassing. The "Roman Catholic (term)" qualifier stems from an era of hostility, as has been argued throughout the years with final name set for the article Catholic Church. The article Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission is called as such and none here argues that to change. However, arguing that the latter sole article should be the prevailing reference for WP:Consistency is shaky, when all other generic articles pertaining to the Catholic Church employ "Catholic" while ommitting the qualifier "Roman". Although there has been instances when Anglicans have made claims to being "Catholic", this was only notably insisted on in the 19th century - many more, however, both inside and outside of the Church of England and the Anglican Communion, have asserted that they are Protestants. There are several branches of Anglicanism, including the Personal Ordinariate, who are part of the Catholic Church. Why don't we see above individuals arguing to disambiguate Anglican, both that article per se as well as the adjective indicated in this article title, for consistency? Pushing for one but not the other arguably borders WP:POINT. Now, WP:POV complains have been exchanged ad nauseam in lots of talk page archives regarding the Catholic Church, something I just recently made a thourough research on. I encourage anyone here to consider that background. "Roman Catholic" objections may be summarised such as in Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#Overview_of_recurrents_viewpoints_throughout_talk_pages. In any case, inviting a number of people here commiting to WP:Consistency in sole reference to the one article Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission, has made this discussion problematic. I would argue to process with caution, possibly including more third opinions. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:53, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

You appear to be arguing that, if we were take this line of argument, Anglicanism would need to be a page about all the different churches that call themselves Anglican, not just the Anglican Communion?

Uh... it is! Multiple churches call themselves Anglican; so the Anglicanism page is about all of them, even though the Anglican Communion is by far the largest; whereas Catholicism, is a redirect to Catholic Church. You seem to be arguing that such a disparity would be unreasonable? If you want to change Catholicism back to a page describing all the churches that call themselves Catholic, as it until recently was.... don't let me stop you.

The Anglicanism page even mentions the Personal Ordinariates, even though they don't call themselves Anglican (you tried to add that to the Anglicanism page, and no-one there agreed, because of the many, many sources in which they clearly say they are not Anglican). Whereas Anglican churches most certainly call themselves Catholic - it isn't something that only happened in the 19th century; it is on the Church of England website right now[1], and in the names of modern organisations like the Society of Catholic Priests and Affirming Catholicism.

As to your more relevant points, use of "Roman Catholic" by the Vatican in ecumenical contexts is vastly wider than the name of ARCIC - the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity; the Joint Working Group between the Roman Catholic Church and the World Council of Churches; the International Roman Catholic-Old Catholic Dialogue Commission; the Evangelical - Roman Catholic Dialogue on Mission.

Which is the important distinction here. Wikipedia does not have to use the same term in every context. In internal contexts, 'Catholic' may generally be reasonably clear, unambiguous, and inoffensive. But in certain ecumenical contexts, the Church itself apparently accepts that, to avoid both ambiguity and offence, Roman Catholic is an acceptable and preferable term; as do the majority of users in this RFC (whether or not brought by a post which, thankfully, fulfilled none of the criteria of WP:CANVAS).

This terminology was, accordingly, at one point used on Wikipedia in a reasonably wide range of places related to Roman Catholic relations with other churches. These have decreased lately, often, as in the previous RFC here, as a result of discussions with barely a handful of people involved. Now, a wider audience seems to be disagreeing with it in this particular case. If you think it is odd that the terminology be used here and in so few other places, perhaps decisions should be revisited in those other places, rather than editors not being free to make that decision here.... TSP (talk) 00:29, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, none is asking to change the name of the article Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission, but yet again, that is another article. Now, if we limit the discussion to the subject in question, I am asking for more sound arguments for invoking an exceptionate WP:Article name singular convention in this case. WP:Consensus is not only about quantity of supporters, but also strength in arguments, per Wikipedia:NOTDEMOCRACY.

That said, the Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission is a joint set-up by the Anglican Communion - which as indicated is merely a part of what is addessed in this article - and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Now, to make things worse, the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity is merely a pontifical council presided over independently by an individual president, giving advises through the Roman Curia to the papacy for his ecumenical endeavours (and certainly not on naming of the church, which is at question here). For extensive related arguments on ARCIC from back in 2006, see here: Talk:Catholic_Church/Archive_6#Terminology_Section. See also Catholic Church and ecumenism#The Anglican Communion, of which this article is WP:Forked.

All these steps make for an advisory chain that can hardly be taken into account even on the most sympathetic terms as an official endorsement of the Holy See for "Roman Catholic Church" as name here or elsewhere. Mind the background with the general discussion and WP:Consensus on self-designation matters as a whole throughout Wikipedia's related talk pages. This clarification applies even if this article solely would have pertained to the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion only, which in any case it demonstratively does not. Yes, background research in talk pages makes clear your opposition througout the years to the current article name of Catholic Church, but that doesn't really make your point stronger here. No, "Wikipedia does not have to use the same term in every context", but advocacy for exceptions against WP:Consistency need prevailing arguments for that.

To add to this, there is the problem of Latin Church#Name, see Roman Catholic Church (disambiguation), which indicate that some of the Latin Church's over 1 billion members (we don't know how many) perceive "Roman Catholic Church" as an alternate designation for their individual particular church sui iuris, and not the Catholic Church as a whole. The Latin Church is neither the sole counterparty in this subject.

All in all, proposed "Roman Catholic" in this case 1) confusingly follows misplaced association to the Anglican–Roman Catholic International Commission, 2) even if that association would be rock hard, invokes its nomenclature in a disputed way, 3) is against WP:Consistency on equivalent generic articles, 4) risks creating more confusion and ambiguity than "Catholic". Chicbyaccident (talk) 06:03, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Current title is confusing and unrecognisable. No better suggestion has been made for a new title. This is a case where the addition of Roman is particularly important; If we need to make this consistent with other titles then we should add Roman to them all, but that rather seems to be the tail wagging the dog to me. Andrewa (talk) 16:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

  Why is it confusing and unrecognisable? The "Roman Catholic" issue is settled, most notably at Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 30#Mediation Outcome and Talk:Catholic_Church/Archive_34#Requested_Move, with various other subpages renamed to match - most recently at Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 55#Requested move 2 July 2017. Common usage in the English world overwhelmingly does not require the use of "Roman", and it is generally understood in reliable sources that "Catholic" means "Roman Catholic". Saying that the Anglican church is also a "Catholic" church, while factually accurate, flies in the face of any real world common usage and can be ignored in this discussion. WP:CONCISE and WP:CONSISTENCY say that we retain this page where it is.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

  Your first link says "Roman Catholic Church" is used primarily for communications with other churches" which fits this context. This article should be moved back. Jonathunder (talk) 17:16, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Hardly valid argument for derivation from WP:Consistency: Wikipedia is not a platform for communication between denominations, nor is that the basis of its article naming conventions, as pointed out above by Amakuru (talk · contribs). There has been lengthy talk page discussions throughout the years about this matter. I still don't see any sound arguments here for exceptionate treating of this article name, such as "Protestant Anglican-Roman Catholic" or any such exceptionate wording, disapproved per WP:Point. WP:I don't like it is not on the money here. Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:03, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

@Chicbyaccident: you have been citing WP:POINT an awful lot lately (I see it is now in the introduction to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Catholic Church) also, accompanying the assertion that Anglicanism is a fringe belief). Given that WP:AGF is a core principle of Wikipedia, and citing WP:POINT explicitly accuses other editors of acting in bad faith, could I ask you to stop it unless you have some very good reasoning to back it up? TSP (talk) 20:43, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

• Given the valid point made by Jonathunder about the communications with other churches, I'll withdraw my oppose above. I'll stay neutral for now, because I'm not really convinced that it's necessary to spell out the "Roman Catholic" in full, but the proposal looks to have consensus now anyway, and it does to some extent follow common usage. Also agree with TSP about the invoking of WP:POINT... "disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point" is an accusation of deliberate malicious behaviour on the part of Wikipedians, and I think we're very far from anything like that, this has been a friendly debate so far. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support: needed to distinguish from Anglican Catholic. Jonathunder (talk) 03:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)