Talk:Regional power

Protected edit request on 27 January 2018

Remove Nigeria and Egypt from the list. Both these countries were not present before and have been added using WP:SPS. One is quora and the other is an article from an editorial board. We need WP:RS from neutral authoritative sources before we can add them back. The editors who are currently adding this are discussing their inclusion. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 15:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC) Adamgerber80 (talk) 15:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:52, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

MSGJ There is no WP:RS for their inclusion as of yet. The editors have provided a link to Quora and other WP:SPS to justify their inclusion (check the page itself). The discussion and the page protection have been initiated by me to reach a consensus on their inclusion per WP:RS which have not yet been provided. Adamgerber80 (talk) 19:18, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I understand but still need another editor to confirm that these additions are not warranted. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:37, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

El C Can you please chime in? Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 20:44, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree that Kazakhstan was a bit much, but Nigeria and Egypt are both on the map, so with the right refs, I don't see the issue. El_C 07:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

El C The map is outdated. These countries have been removed quite some time ago. The references provided as of now are WP:SPS. I am confused how can we re-add these countries under these conditions. The edtior(s) (I think it is only one on 2 IPs) in question have not yet provided a authoritative reference. Adamgerber80 (talk) 08:19, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't see how the map could be outdated, but I agree that if the sources are not provided, they can be removed. El_C 08:43, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

El C The map was last updated on 13 October 2015. That is almost 2 years ago. I am not opposed to addition of those countries given we have the requisite references. The IP in question made this comment "If Nigeria is not included, I would rather spend my time in the gym than editing articles in Wikipedia." which seems frivolous to me. Adamgerber80 (talk) 09:12, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this article is constantly subject to petty nationalism and the deletion of sourced content. Searching in past versions, I found two citations that support the inclusion of Nigeria:

1. "West Africa, with its strong French influence, is home to one of Africa's two regional giants, Nigeria, and the region has seen the scene of much political and ethnic unrest." See David Lynch, Trade and Globalization (Lanham, USA: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2010), p. 51.
2. "South Africa is not the sole regional power on the continent, though; Nigeria is the other widely acknowledge centre of power in Africa and likewise a sub-regional superpower in West Africa." See Deon Geldenhuys, "South Africa: The Idea-driven Foreign Policy of a Regional Power," in Regional Leadership in the Global System, edited by Daniel Flemes (Farnham, UK: Ashgate, 2010), p. 151.

The map in question actually reflects a much more complete listing of countries, by regions and sub-regions, that a combination of malicious and ignorant editing removed from the article.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 09:37, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

MarshalN20 Thanks a lot for your input on Nigeria. IMO we have enough references for Nigeria. I am not completely convicted about Egypt though. First, Egypt has always been mentioned under Africa/North Africa not Transcontinental. Second, there has been some literature post 2015 which states that Egypt is no longer a regional power. ([1],[2],[3],[4]). Happy to discuss more. Adamgerber80 (talk) 14:35, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, there seems to be more evidence explaining why Egypt is not a regional power than supporting it to currently be one.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 19:39, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

El C,MarshalN20 The page has now been unprotected. I propose we let Nigeria remain in the list but update the quora source with the above sources. Additionally, we remove Egypt from the list until we find more authoritative references. Does this sound good? Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 16:18, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

The main problem with the article is not the countries listed. Focusing too much on that detracts from the larger issue, which is that of defining the regions in which these "regional powers" operate. Nigeria isn't a continental power, so listing it under "Africa" is an exaggeration. The sources indicate that it's a power in West Africa. Is South Africa a power in all of Africa? Regions are far more numerous than continents, and the existence of a "transcontinental" list is outside the scope of this article.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 19:25, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

MarshalN20 Nigeria, when it was listed in the article, was mentioned under West Africa. Similarly, Russia and Turkey were not mentioned as trans-continental powers. I think the issues is multi-fold. We first need to trim the countries based on the sources we have. Then assign them with the relevant regions. I would consider South-Africa a Southern Africa regional power which is reflected in the sources. Adamgerber80 (talk) 23:46, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Should Europe be split into regions?

If yes, I would like to propose the addition of the following new entries:

Northern Europe

• Denmark (maybe)

• Norway (maybe)

• Sweden

• United Kingdom (already on the list)

Western Europe

• Austria (maybe)

• Belgium

• France (already on the list)

• Germany (already on the list)

• Netherlands

• Switzerland

Eastern Europe

• Poland

• Romania (maybe)

• Ukraine (maybe)

Southern Europe

• Italy (already on the list)

• Portugal (maybe)

• Spain

If you don't agree, that's fine. I was just making a suggestion. And how about adding Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines and Singapore in Southeast Asia, Hong Kong and Taiwan in East Asia, Egypt in Africa and the UAE in Western Asia? --2A02:2149:826D:7A00:4D16:C812:1F72:30DA (talk) 17:00, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Pakistan

@Adamgerber80, Sdmarathe, and Usman47: Here is quick analysis of the sources used by Usman47.

• [5] = From 2002. States Hungary Sweden and more as "middle powers".
• [6] Shanghai Cooperation organisation list. That is no description for "regional power".
• [7] Unreliable source, which sentence say Pakistan is a regional power?
• [8] Unreliable source.
• [9] Unreliable again.
• [10] provide quote for this. Where you were reading that source say Pakistan is a regional power?
• [11] regional nuclear power? How's that "Regional power".

These sources fail the point. Lorstaking (talk) 11:17, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Mar4d: you are supposed to carry on discussion here in place of restoring the disputed edit. Do you have any source that qualifies more than just passing mention? Sdmarathe (talk) 19:42, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Everyone, Can we please revert to the page as it was on this version on 20 June 2018. I do understand that there a set of editors who think the sources added are insufficient and other editors think we have enough WP:RS to include Pakistan. This can be done here without engaging in an edit-war. And something for everyone to ponder on is this link from IISS. Even though it is marked as a blog, it gives a good matrix analysis of what constitutes a regional power. IISS is also a reputed organization with experts and is considered a great neutral source on Wikipedia. IMO, beyond this discussion, we should use this to make this page better. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 20:48, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

We don't have to voice opinion of minority but mainstream. You can search and discover sources calling Sri Lanka, United Arab Emirates, and other countries a regional power as well but we have to voice the mainstream view. IISS also calls "North Korea" a regional power but that's not supported by majority of sources. India and Brazil are a Great power according to many sources and some consider India, China, Russia to be a superpower. But Wikipedia article on these subjects don't list Brazil and India as great power, nor list Russia, India, China as superpower because that is not an opinion of majority.

Generally the sources that are focused on regional powers have not included Pakistan as one:-

• [12][13] [14]: "Testing several indicators, we identified the following countries as regional powers: China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, Indonesia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey."

.... "for example, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, Thailand, Vietnam, Argentina, Venezuela and Nigeria. They are important but do not belong to those nations which exert global and regional influence, either in regional or global institutions or as economic hubs in the region. For comparison, the data of some of the aforementioned countries were taken into consideration."

• [15]: "The countries considered to be regional powers – Brazil, South Africa, India, China, Japan and Russia".
• [16]: This list is certainly small but includes China, India, not Pakistan.
• [17]: Look at the table at the bottom of the page 56.
• [18]: " But it also reflects that secondary regional powers and entities such as ASEAN, Russia, South Korea and India have proved unwilling to chose between the two."
• [19]: This entire book is dedicated to "Regional Powers and Global Redistribution". It says "Regional powers such as India, Brazil and South Africa", but makes no mention of Pakistan as a regional power.

The first source is widely prevalent in academia and holds full expertise in this subject. It has refuted the incorrect notion. None of the above references as well as many others[20][21][22][23][24][25] say that Pakistan is a regional power and most of them don't even mention Pakistan in this context. If Pakistan is a regional power than those sources are ought to say it if Pakistan was really a regional power. This book says Pakistan is a "sub-regional power". Given the large amount of dispute and omission of Pakistan as "regional power", it seems that it is just an opinion of a small minority that Pakistan is a regional power and it is not shared by the majority as already evidenced in the great amount of sources that have authority in this subject. There is a strong argument against inclusion of Pakistan as regional power. Orientls (talk) 09:12, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

That's an interesting analysis of the weakness of this information. Also read this chapter. It describes the problems with calling Pakistan a regional power. Lorstaking (talk) 10:35, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Reading that, I support removing such information that seem to be promoting the status that doesn't really exists. Orientls (talk) 13:41, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

@Orientls It's interesting that you are quoting sources that are suiting your narrative and are majority biased sources with Indian authors. Since this is a page talk not a discussion forum, i would refrain to go in to an argument. Same arguments that you are applying here can be applied for India where no article mentions india as a monopoly of regional power in South Asia. Your arguments are politically motivated and are no substance.

Pakistan being world's seventh nuclear power and have sixth largest nuclear arsenal  ; one of the few countries that have completed nuclear triad. Have sixth largest standing army . It is a large manufacturer and supplier of military equipment and deploy it's forces in multiple regional countries for security and stability and provide training to other militaries . , Is a founding member/full member of multiple international geo-strategic organisations. , qualifies Pakistan as regional power. AlphaAce (talk) 15:44, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Your own original research cannot be taken as substitute for reliable source. Pakistan is regarded as a regional power by minority, Wikipedia links of Pakistani-related articles don't prove anything that concerns regional power status. Orientls (talk) 15:59, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

• I wished to add here that I have only seen random mentions of Pakistan being a regional power around and maybe there were better chances for Pakistan to be treated as a regional power a decade or earlier however the recent reliable sources as listed by Orientls show Pakistan is not making it to the list at all. Sdmarathe (talk) 16:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, nope. Orientls' "analysis" (or opinion) is weak, incomplete, and for lack of a better term, also invalid/not up to the mark. We are not concerned with "global redistribution". Regional powers are (sic) states that have "power within a geographic region. States which wield unrivalled power and influence within a region of the world possess regional hegemony." Here we are focused on "regional power" within South Asia as per WP:RS. ^I don't know who this Rajesh Rajagopalan is, or what his credentials are. But Barry Buzan, Ole Wæver, T. V. Paul, James N. Rosenau, Roger Kanet, Samuel P. Huntington and others are mainstream and internationally-recognised experts in the field, and certainly more experienced, qualified, and widely-cited than you. If you think we are going to railroad these experts and pretend you know better, then fat chance! In their work, they have defined in great detail what "regional" powers and their roles are, and in specific terms identify Pakistan amongst the countries that influence regional dynamics and are regional powers. Amongst the criteria that such powers fulfil are conventional military standing (e.g. nuclear states), impact on neighbouring states/regions, socioeconomics etc., and as per the sources we have, these criteria are specifically acknowledged even in as subjective a department as this. The same standards hold true for most other powers listed in this article for each region.

I will go further, because Orientls is contradicted by his own sources. This paper acknowledges a publication by Robert Pastor who (quote) "includes Argentina, Iraq, Egypt, Indonesia, and Pakistan in addition to the above-mentioned countries" as regional powers. This link only focuses on a selective group of powers (G4) who failed to attain UNSC seats, and interestingly attributes one of the reasons to an anti-G4 group consisting of active powers like Pakistan, Argentina, Italy, Korea, and Mexico. This one is definitely questionable, as it self-admittedly claims "Russia is excluded from our analysis" and even omits Iran and Israel, all of which are recurrently mentioned in other sources. This page is on Asia-Pacific and, like most other links above, is entirely irrelevant to South Asia.

Finally, I find it extremely odd that a revert of longstanding sourced content, later called a 'mistake', triggers at least three users with no immediate history on this article effectively trying to restore the same vandal's edits. This article needs to be put under extensive monitoring. Mar4d (talk) 17:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

To interpret mainstream sources is now considered a WP:OR?

These sources are the best you could come up with? That's still a minority view. Pakistan is not a regional power when it comes to majority view. According to you, we should also consider Ukraine as a great power? "I don't know who this Rajesh Rajagopalan is, or what his credentials are"? He has enough publications that comes from reliable publications and he has more idea about Pakistan not being a regional power, unlike your sources and some of which you have cherry-picked in wrong context. We can't treat opinion of Robert Pastor that is added to the footnote by the source itself[26] and Iraq is not a regional power, thus Pastor's opinion is extremely flawed and same goes for "Buzan, Barry; Wæver, Ole", it is flawed too.

Keep this discussion about Pakistan, don't invite discussion about other countries like Iran, Israel as they are definitely more recognizable as regional power, Pakistan isn't. You need to rely on mainstream sources where experts have voiced opinion after having some solid foundation. Orientls (talk) 17:21, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

This discussion is about the sources, where you have failed in particular. The sources linked above are mainstream, while yours are not coming even close and are cherry-picked which anyone can see. Also, "don't invite discussion about other countries like Iran, Israel as they are definitely more recognizable as regional power" - it is your own source that is claiming they are not regional powers, so double crossing won't help I'm afraid. The only thing that is "flawed" here is your consistent WP:OR, because you are certainly not an academic or expert, and Wikipedia doesn't work based on what your personal opinion is. There is no way anyone is going to take you seriously if you don't stick to the content. Thanks! Mar4d (talk) 17:37, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

You are picking up footnotes of a source (WP:CHERRYPICKING) for establishing your view that Pakistan is a regional power. Whether those sources are mainstream or not, the point here is Pakistan is clearly not a regional power because its recognition as a regional power is minor. Like you, I am not talking about what "triggers at least three users with no immediate history on this article". I am only sticking to content. Especially when you make WP:POINT like "This page is on Asia-Pacific and, like most other links above, is entirely irrelevant to South Asia", you are really failing to find a policy based excuse for disregarding the mainstream view that eliminates Pakistan as regional power. Orientls (talk) 17:49, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

That "footnote" was in your own source(!), which you are ironically using to claim the opposite. Hence my point stands. It's obvious who is cherry-picking from just that particular example. It's not my problem if your sources are entirely irrelevant, or derailing and contradicting each other. The Asia-Pacific source is on Sino-US influence, and is not even relevant to the region covering this section. Why don't you start a new section below for the United States and China? Mar4d (talk) 18:02, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

But you were supposed to read what is written in the main body. Obviously the publishers deemed Pakistan as unsuited for the main list and thought its better to place in footer.

Sources are not irrelevant per their prevalence. They are published by the highly cited experts of the subject.

What do you mean by "contradicting each other"? They are not supposed to agree entirely, only that Pakistan is not listed by any of them as regional power.

Who actually demanded the creation of a section for "Asia-Pacific"? I don't really see any. Orientls (talk) 19:17, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The prevalence of support for Pakistan as regional power is low as explained above and there are some other countries that get mentioned as regional power as Pakistan. I don't think there is academic consensus for Pakistan being referred as regional power. Sdmarathe (talk) 03:53, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Mar4d: the "longstanding" content lacked any satisfactory sources. Your sources refer Pakistan as secondary regional power, which at least shows that Pakistan is not a major regional power. This one calls it a "secondary regional power". Your other source mentions Pakistan as one of the "third tier of secondary regional power". These sources incorrectly adds Ukraine and gives zero description about Pakistan being a regional power unlike Rajesh Rajagopalan who has extensively written about this subject and yields more expertise than these sources of yours. Rajagopalan describes [27] this whole subject in better terms which is relevant per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Now this alone proves above point. Do know that there is "distinction between major regional power and secondary regional power"? You should have no doubt by now, that why these lists and experts (as mentioned above) are omitting the mention of Pakistan, because it has not established itself as a regional power and only because some people are thinking that it is a regional power without describing why or how, there is no requirement for us to list Pakistan as a regional power. As already shown, Pakistan is not generally mentioned as regional power by the reliable sources including these other reliable sources.[28][29] If Pakistan could be as commonly considered as a regional power then there had to be be no problem at first. You can read now that even North Korea, Ukraine, Algeria[30] gets mentioned as "regional power". But reality is still same that they are not regional powers, just like Pakistan isn't. Lorstaking (talk) 04:31, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Lorstaking: WP:SCHOLARSHIP states: "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a paper reviewing existing research, a review article, monograph, or textbook is often better than a primary research paper. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view." You are doing the same, and like Orientls, relying fully on his weak primary sources like papers even though they comparatively fail the reliability criteria as per the above, and are contradicting your own cherry-picked opinions as they themselves mention Pakistan.

Wikipedia is only going to depend on reliable sources, not your personal opinions which in encylopaedic terms hold zero weight. The scholars cited are notable, mainstream experts who are renowned in the field of geopolitics, have more knowledge than you to write on the subject (obviously!), and have conducted extensive studies unlike you, whereas the non-notable sources you and Orientls could only find fall nowhere near. Repeatedly trumping Rajagopalan is not going to help you as the WP:WEIGHT of scholarly consensus tips onto the side of the mainstream view. Your first link is a study "Using the emerging powers of India and South Africa as the case studies" only, and it seems you did not read even the title of the book per WP:RELEVANCE. Your second source (including the page you cited) is also contradicting you, as it does not disqualify Pakistan anywhere. In fact, page 53 states: Not all regional powers are equal. Table 3.1 is an attempt to rank them... and this very table lists Pakistan amongst the same small group of countries. Using your own source, we can now also deduct that you are creating false equivalence. China and Japan are not 'equal' powers. Saudi Arabia and Iran are by many aspects, not equal. UK and Italy are not equal. Neither are South Africa and Nigeria. The listing of regional powers does not rank states by parity, it ranks them by their ability to significantly influence regional dynamics. And the fact is, multiple mainstream sources have declared Pakistan as capable of exercising this influence, including ironically your own sources, and that is what we will go with.

If you have issues about other countries, then you need start a new section below. Also hiding behind one non-Western source and building upon misrepresentation won't make your opinions believable. If we even read that source, it is actually only saying that it is "difficult" and that it may be too weak to be a regional power, and further says it is equally difficult to characterize South Asia as a region in any theoretically significant ways. The same source says (quote) that it is a state endowed with significant material capabilities, which include being a nuclear weapon state... and that Pakistan has been surprisingly successful in pursuing its grand strategic goals and in exploiting global and extra-regional powers in the pursuit of these objectives, sometimes even bending them to its will. This also contradicts.... Furthermore: ...regional powers are also very adept at manipulating opportunities to advance their interests.. Pakistan's strategy during both the Cold War and afterwards illustrates the capacity of weaker regional powers to advance their interests through such astute strategies. The Pakistan case suggests that regional powers are not simply subjects of the global order, but rather are agents who actively seek, often successfully, to manipulate global power resources to their own ends. And other snippets: ... the issue of agency remains: are weaker regional powers simply a variation of the vassal state, living out their lives at the mercy of great powers or do they have a measure of autonomy in pursuing their own goals... So even this "study" is not entirely omitting it, but in fact largely in agreement to the mainstream sources discussing Pakistani regional power. And it totally relates to the point about parity above. And if that is all you have, then we have stronger sources on this talk page and elsewhere which altogether omit certain countries, calling them not regional powers, rather than studies using vague terms like "may", "difficult" etc. So in summary, we can conclude reliably now your views hold no contention. Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 09:28, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Do the current scholarship holds the view that Pakistan is a regional power? No one is "hiding behind one non-Western source", and we don't evaluate sources by the race, but by the credentials. Rajesh Rajagopalan is an expert who provides good explanation regarding the problems with recognizing Pakistan as a regional power, it is more than just making a passing mention and Rajagopalan's chapter has credibility that's why only a few sources are including Pakistan as regional power compared to those who don't mention it. Whether you get it now or later, the argument to consider Pakistan as regional power is same as considering Ukraine or Algeria or North Korea. Maybe we can convert the lists into paragraphs and omit the mention of Pakistan in section but dedicate a separate paragraph to include the mention of Algeria, Pakistan, Ukraine, North Korea and other names that lacks universal consensus. Lorstaking (talk)

You are answering your own question, the current scholarship is cited everywhere above. The credibility of your sources, I'm afraid, has been discussed above including how they are contradicting you. You would be better of spending time reading on why you are claiming something, while your sources even are saying something else. The consensus amongst all, including in your own sources, is not tilting towards your claim. You are effectively hanging on a refuted argument. Mar4d (talk) 11:47, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Your cherry-picking of quotations is not helping your case. They don't say Pakistan is a regional power,[31][32] and that's the argument. Now if you want the sources to explicitly "disqualify", you should question that why they even have to mention a non-regional power in context of regional powers at first? By grossly misrepresenting this page that talks about "second-order power rankings", and not "regional power". You are just trying to make a non-existing connection that doesn't exist. Sdmarathe (talk) 12:06, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

You're the one cherry-picking here. That first one is a case study of two countries. And your second claim is completely false, because the source calls them "regional powers" and divides them into ranks. So once again, the source misrepresentation and cherry-picking is clear on your side. Mar4d (talk) 12:20, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

But it names Brazil, China, India, Nigeria, Russia and South Africa as "viable regional powers". Where's Pakistan? In other one,[33] you are just misrepresenting the source to suit your POV. If your misrepresentation is accepted then in which world a person would call Mexico, Venezuela, etc. a regional power? This misleading connection is not sticking. Sdmarathe (talk) 13:43, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting, the source uses the exact term "regional power" and you can read it. Your comment shows you are double guessing your own sources now too, which makes your argument further weaker. And Mexico by the way is cited in this article. Maybe you should spend greater time reading both the article, and the sources you cite, along with all other sources. Mar4d (talk) 14:19, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

That's still not the definition of regional power. According to the sources, India is a great power but I am sure that you won't support India's listing as Great power. Mexico is a regional power? What about Vietnam? Source provided some details on Pakistan on page 54 that it is losing stability.[34] Whether you pick up the table as representative of scholarship or not, fact is still the same that Pakistan is often omitted as regional power and similarly many other countries share the status but we don't list them. Sdmarathe (talk) 15:47, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The fact is, all sources quoted so far have discussed Pakistan as a regional power in any form, including the sources presented by you. That counts for something, and you can't deny it. Furthermore, all your opinions so far have failed to refute the fact that the sources discussing Pakistan have been written by acknowledged experts. Strike two. Finally, what you are claiming is in fact the case for most if not all other powers, it doesn't mean they are not powers. It only means there are a diversity of opinions, and we follow what is the common view. And as we can see from at least 10 scholarly sources, in addition to the sources you folks have presented, they all discuss Pakistan's regional power. Strike three. Thus we conclude that there is sufficient literature in support of the fact. Mar4d (talk) 16:04, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Not all sources have, in fact most have omitted. For a name[35] this one has not mentioned Pakistan. Going by your interpretation, if you read more carefully, the table omits many major regional powers that are listed here because they must not be really talking about the regional power and if they are then why they didn't made the mention on page 447? There is "sufficient literature" to support India being a great power as well, but until all sources agree we would list them. As pointed out to you above there is heavy amount of sources that don't want to consider Pakistan as regional power and Rajesh Rajagopalan have a good analysis regarding the issues with Pakistan being considered as a regional power.[36] Can you find as credible sources that describe how Pakistan has become a regional power? Certainly the recent POV edits to this article make that claim.[37] Sdmarathe (talk) 16:16, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I concur with the references presented by @Mar4d. Based on the research of these highly-regarded experts, there is substantial evidence and scholarship that appreciates Pakistan's regional power. I see no reason to add a South Asia section, if it doesn't mention the major powers of the region, like other regions. Actually if we go one step further, Pakistan's regional power prevents India from becoming a hegemon, and we are going to resume discussion below on the validity of India's power. Nauriya Let's talk 19:18, July 7, 2018 (UTC)

This discussion is not a vote and making vague handwaves is not going to establish the status. India is actually considered as Great power by enough "highly-regarded experts" so we should be listing India as Great power. Sorry but we are not interested in righting great wrongs. Read WP:RGW. Sdmarathe (talk) 16:26, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

• Sdmarathe: There is sufficient literature to support Pakistan's regional power. Rajagopalan is one source and all that you have - and now I am going to actually share that you have also grossly misrepresented him. Meanwhile, above there are dozens of more sources and they include Barry Buzan, Ole Wæver, T. V. Paul, James N. Rosenau, Roger Kanet, Samuel P. Huntington. So all said and done, you are on the losing side when push comes to shove.

And thank you finally for linking this source. Here is a chapter from this very book (p. 200 onwards), and guess what, it is written by Rajagopalan himself, right after the opening passage you all have been using (p. 193). Let me share the details, straight from the horse's mouth (i.e. your source): By these crudely material resources, Pakistan should be considered a major regional power... So, though Pakistan is a fairly large, important and powerful state in its own right... its position at the crossroads of Central Asia, the Middle East and South Asia offers it advantages that Islamabad has been quick to exploit at different points in time... In each instance, Pakistan has used its geopolitical position as a way of garnering strategic benefits... Therefore, in addition to its considerable traditional material capabilities, Pakistan has other resources that cement its status as a regional power... resources astutely to frequently advance its national interest, even in interaction with much more powerful extra-regional powers, even to the extent of undertaking projects such as nuclear weapons development despite opposition from these powers... Pakistan... has been anything but a passive subject of global powers or processes... rather, what Pakistan has done is to engage with global powers as a way of either pursuing Pakistani interests without being challenged (for example, the case of the nuclear weapons programme), or to use such powers to balance... Despite such instances, it is clear Pakistan has been able to pursue its significant interests with a modicum of success... I outline Pakistan's key strategic objectives and how Pakistan has pursued these interests, many times utilizing great power resources.

And if there's any doubts, Rajagopalan's next summary of his chapter (which touches upon Pakistan's political/military influence, nuclear capability, regional relations, ties to Middle East/Muslim world/China/US and more) is self-explanatory:

The assumption that regional powers are incapable of resisting external influences and impact is difficult to sustain in the case of Pakistan. I examine three cases below... The first demonstrates that Pakistan was able to use outside powers to pursue Pakistan's regional objective; the second demonstrates that Pakistan was able to withstand international pressure on a key issue of international security concern; the last case demonstrates that Pakistan, even when it was forced to change its own policy direction, was, over time, able to subvert the global agenda.

Other snippets:

...Pakistan exploited opportunities for aligning with external partners if that suited Pakistan's interests, and only if it suited Pakistani interests... Throughout the next decade, Pakistan managed adroitly to not only balance the Soviet forces in Afghanistan... but also used that alliance to both enhance its conventional military capability... as well as develop its own nuclear weapons capability... In each of these instances, Islamabad set the terms of the alliance... even while being a close ally in a dangerous venture (or maybe even because of it), Pakistan was able to force Washington to bend its policy to suit Pakistan's interest... Nevertheless, almost a decade after the war started it is clear that Pakistan has managed to subvert the agenda of the global unipolar power... Pakistan has found ways to force the US on the horns of a dilemma... the greater is Pakistan's leverage in Afghanistan... Pakistan will be increasingly able to leverage its cooperation on any US proposal to gain leeway on its own more crucial objectives...

Rajgopalan furthermore does not rule out Pakistan as a regional power, and clarifies his opening statement that it would be an issue only (quote) if regional power means something more than simply a power whose strategic reach is limited to its neighbourhood. But Pakistan does also demonstrate something else... Pakistan has consistently pursued its own primary strategic goals, using external powers as pawns in its regional game.

Rajgopalan's closing statement:

After all, Pakistan is a nuclear power, a large and considerably powerful state... for now, we should not assume that regional powers, though weaker by definition in comparison to global powers and processes, are completely helpless in the influence and management of the international environment.

The scholarly consensus and academic exposition is overwhelmingly clear and strong. There is a unanimous view that Pakistan exercises capable influence within South Asia, including in the source above. Thus, this matter is as good as sealed and proven beyond fact. Clearly, you have no case anymore. Mar4d (talk) 17:57, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

@Mar4d: If you are just going to only repeat what you have already mentioned then you are showing off the weakness of your case.

You are just failing to cite the actual conclusion. You cite "Pakistan should be considered a major regional power" but omits "But Power is as much a relationship concept as an absolute one. And, unfortunately for Pakistan, its neighbour India dwarfs it in almost every measure." You have been cherrypicking the quotes to favor a POV but that is not going to stick. That is misrepresentation of sources.

"Pakistan is not often thought of as a regional power. This alone requires additional clarification." - This is what a few editors are telling you.

"By most definition, Pakistan would be difficult to classify as a regional power, which includes some notion of regional leadership that goes beyond simply material capabilities and 'a belief in their entitlement to a more influential role in world affairs''".

"By this measure at least, it will be difficult to classify Pakistan as a regional power."

"Given this lack of regional political dynamic it is understandable that Pakistan emphasizes a bilateral, security-driven agenda rather than a regional agenda. If regional power means something more than simply a power whose strategic reach is limited to its neighbourhood then it might not be possible to characterize Pakistan as a regional power."

Before I would generate the snippets from the sources as well as the clear conclusion, I am giving you another chance to find reliable sources that have done something more than just making passing mention regarding categorization of Pakistan as regional power. Sdmarathe (talk) 01:20, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

To editor Sdmarathe: All your sources agree and are calling Pakistan a regional power. Including Rajagopalan whose text has been thoroughly deconstructed by Mar4d above. Your quotes from Rajagopalan are just snippets which Rajagopalan rebuts in his own text. The majority of the Rajagopalan's text favours Pakistan's regional power status and partial representation would amount to WP:CHERRYPICKING of the source.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:26, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

And you have still not rebutted the research of Barry Buzan, Ole Wæver, T. V. Paul, James N. Rosenau, Roger Kanet, Samuel P. Huntington, all of which are excellent and strong in-depth sources, meet the reliability criteria, and it would be extremely difficult for you to prove otherwise. We already have majority of sources supporting this status (which we have seen here), so the weakness of your claim is judged by the fact that your opinion is a minority view as per these sources. Even your above source summarised Pakistan as a regional power in the conclusion, and several times in the text.

And by the way, a non-regional power would not have a chapter discussing exactly why it is a regional power, which your source does. You are misrepresenting the source, and you fail to explain why the same author you quoted has called Pakistan a regional power several times.

Read especially the conclusion, the summary which Mar4d showed above, and also the bolded text. It is as clear as daylight to anyone that Raja has done an analysis and just identified strengths and weaknesses of Pakistan. In his conclusion, he has called Pakistan a powerful state and used term "regional power".--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:47, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Looks like you are entirely misrepresenting sources as it is already obvious that majority of sources don't cite Pakistan as a regional power. Repeating source misrepresentation by Mar4d has already weakened this case and you are making it apparent that one can't push Pakistan without misrepresenting sources. Rajagopalan says "Pakistan is not often thought of as a regional power. This alone requires additional clarification." What else you have missed?

Making vague handwaves of passing mentions is unhelpful especially in this case. Which "all your sources agree"? I haven't provided even one yet, Mar4d misrepresented the entire Rajagopalan's text after rejecting him "non-western" for about 2 days and now resorted to cherrypicking by connecting remotely unrelated sentences with each other. Read WP:SYNTH, you are doing worse than him by engaging in deliberate misrepresentation of sources.

Have you read WP:CONTEXTMATTERS? Rajagopalan pass it, not the passing mentions. Now read some more:-

• Escape from Violence: Conflict and the Refugee Crisis in the Developing World. Oxford University Press. p. 135.

"When Pakistan in 1971 was divided into (West) Pakistan and Bangladesh, losing about half its population and a sizable portion of its territory, the regional power structure moved further in favor of India."

• K. M. De Silva, Kingsley M.. De Silva. Regional Powers and Small State Security: India and Sri Lanka, 1977-1990. Woodrow Wilson Center Press. p. 22.

"India, the major regional power in South Asia, and its principal rival, Pakistan were drawn into extra-regional alliances, the latter because of opposition to India over Kashmir and other issues."

• Ahmed, Ali (2014). India's Doctrine Puzzle: Limiting War in South Asia. Routledge. p. 36. ISBN 9781317559580.

"With Pakistan divided, India gained a pre-eminent position as a regional power. Henceforth, India became the status quoist and stronger power, while Pakistan remained the weaker, revisionist one."

• Jacobsen, Knut (2015). Routledge Handbook of Contemporary India. Routledge. p. 187. ISBN 9781317403579.

"India emerged as the predominant regional power in South Asia after the successful vivisection of Pakistan in 1971."

• Jyoti Bhusan Das Gupta (2007). Science, Technology, Imperialism, and War. p. 851. ISBN 9788131708514.

"On the contrary the United States recognized India as a regional power of importance."

• "Pakistan's Example of the Way Forward in Egypt". 2013.

"Pakistan's development of nuclear weapons, and an often awkward relationship with India, the regional power."

"On the other side of the ledger is the perception that Pakistan is no longer a U.S. ally (given the assumed help it gave to bin Laden during his years of hiding there) and sometimes seems on the verge of becoming a failed state, the first with a nuclear weapons arsenal."

• "Pakistan: A Failed State?". 2009.

"Today, the world faces the stark and real possibility of Pakistan becoming a failed state and a haven for terrorism with potential nightmarish consequences."

"the active involvement of regional powers such as India and Iran but also requires a U.S. shift in military"

Do we have any of these sources saying Pakistan is a regional power, or describing how Pakistan became a regional power by discussing these significant factors? That's what I meant by WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, not just vague handwave. And frankly speaking, how country "described by many academics, particularly the American ones, as a failed state"[38] can be even remotely called a regional power?

One of the above source (Silva) has been hailed by Mar4d as "eminent historian," per his comments on Talk:Indo-Pakistani War of 1971.[39] There is another detailed book on regional powers[40] that avoids any mention of Pakistan. These books are dedicated to "regional power" and they avoid any mention of Pakistan.

Now given the dubiousness and lack of consensus among scholars, there are valid reasons for removing Pakistan from the list. Sdmarathe (talk) 12:09, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

This discussion is not a vote, and you are the one challenging established WP:STATUSQUO as supported by all existing sources, so that won't happen. We have already arrived at one result, which is that both your arguments and sources unfortunately are completely deficient, and therefore have been rejected. A blog? That's your choice of references now? Sorry to say, but this makes you appear desperate now and willing to lift off any ineligible source, including most of the above which have been Google searched using one specific country name. If that is what you're going to lean on, then I'm afraid you have already lost the argument. We are not even going to get into other countries' regional standings, because that's not what this section was on. You are welcome to participate in the separate sections allotted for those countries, and I am sure there are hundreds of references which would challenge your views. If you can't stick to the content, WP:DROPTHESTICK. Adding non-topical references after misrepresenting the on-topic references already shows you have nothing new to offer. As far as I can see, you are not going to get anywhere far. Good day, Mar4d (talk) 13:18, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

You are failing to describe how Pakistan is generally regarded as regional power and none of your sources pass WP:CONTEXTMATTERS nor do they detail how Pakistan became a regional power but there are sources that say in detail that it's not regional power or it lost its status due to defeat in 1971 war against India. Now that you have already breached your topic ban on India Pakistan conflict, I strongly recommend you and NadirAli to stop replying to this argument since it is not going to move without clarifying the India - Pakistan wars. Sdmarathe (talk) 13:36, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

There is no question of that even. The discussion is entirely centered on Pakistan being a regional power in South Asia, and the sources support this strongly. If you think we are going to set this discussion on your own terms and accept your unreliable, out-of-scope references, you can dispel this notion straight away. Mar4d (talk) 13:48, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• Mar4d has defended Pakistan's status of a regional power so amicably here that there is nothing left for me to say. I agree with whatever Mar4d said in their statements above. By going through all this conversation, I have come to a conclusion that Pakistan was listed on this article as a regional power since 2009, these are nine years, no one noticed the purported falsehood until now. I am not in favor of removing Pakistan from this list until and unless we have considerable proof from considerable number of reliable scholarly sources claiming that Pakistan has lost its regional power base in last nine years. There are no sources claiming that. Furthermore, Mar4d and others who are against the removal of Pakistan from this list have presented many sources which attest to the fact that Pakistan is in fact a regional power and there is only one teeny tiny source with a teeny tiny ambiguous mention written by an author with questionable credentials which suggests that Pakistan might not be that powerful but that same author contradicts himself somewhere else as per Mar4d. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:30, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• That makes no sense. Just because Pakistan was listed in this article as a regional power in 2009, it doesn't mean that Pakistan became one in 2009. You have to provide sources for stating when Pakistan actually became the regional power and what it has done. Considerable number of "reliable scholarly sources" have been provided here that totally rejects Pakistan as a regional power, so your claims don't make sense. Sources provided by Mar4d so far--as has been said above many times-- are not enough since they make passing mentions that can be found for many other countries. That one "teeny tiny source" is a qualified source and lacks any contradiction. By degrading and misrepresenting the reliable and qualified source you are making your argument the weakest. My Lord (talk) 05:28, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

• This matter has been taken to WP:DRN under dispute resolution. Please visit the linked section and leave your summaries as requested, so we can proceed. Regards, Mar4d (talk) 09:27, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

References

An old discussion at Talk:Pakistan

Transcluding an old discussion from Talk:Pakistan/Archive_18#Regional power? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:07, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I noticed the edit warring over the "regional power" mention in the lead. The first source says Pakistan is not often thought of as a regional power. So this is not something that has consensus among the reliable sources. The second source calls it a regional pole of power, with India being the other pole. So, this is not the same as being a "regional power". I would expect that a regional power has to provide some kind of regional leadership. Given that Pakistan failed to hold the SAARC summit, its claims to regional leadership are quite dubious. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:28, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

(oops, forgot to log in. Repost) Kautilya3 (talk · contribs), this is exactly why I reverted the edits - twice. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, concrete in any of the sources provided by Towns Hill that explicitly refers to this country as an outright regional power. The dubiousness of this claim to regional power status made me revert the edits. Might I also mention that the sources that this user provided are almost 15 years old? A lot can change in 15 years. China wouldn't have been considered as powerful as it is today in say, 2000, for example. The world was pretty unipolar in 2000, with the US being the sole superpower in existence, but it is now pretty multipolar. 15 year old sources in this case are illegitimate.

I am really amused (and kind of flattered) that someone spent time and effort in taking me to the arbitration committee when I was merely carrying out my duty and reverting what I saw as a flagrant attempt at nationalistic chauvinism. Am I assuming good faith here? No. Am in the wrong for not assuming good faith here? I doubt it, because a cursory glance at the editing histories of these two users gave me an insight into their behaviour on Wikipedia. Tiger7253 (talk) 10:27, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

• I will take a look at various sources. I haven't seen the first source cited before, so will need to take another look at it. Interestingly, it does have a whole section discussing Pakistan's status, strengths and weaknesses as a regional power. The second source linked clearly mentions Pakistan as a regional power in South Asia. Similarly, B. Buzan in The United States and the Great Powers: World Politics in the Twenty-First Century defines regional powers as those who "define the polarity of any given regional security complex", and defines Pakistan as a regional power in its region. Going through such readings, I find the assertion carries weight. Pakistan is undeniably a very important country in South Asia and beyond, and enormously large in terms of its population, demographics, military strength, nuclear capability, as well as in terms of its geostrategic politics and foreign relations. All these are factors of a reasonably influential country, as the first source notes. Economically, it is much developed than its other South Asian neighbours and has the 25th largest GDP. I will try expanding on Pakistan's influence within the body, but obviously it is important for the WP:LEAD to adequately summarise the country's position, as is the case with all other country articles. Mar4d (talk) 13:46, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

  I looked at the sources as well. The first source lays out the criteria for what constitutes a regional power and concludes that Pakistan is one. However, it does also state that "Pakistan is not often thought of as a regional power" indicating that this (the view that Pakistan is a regional power) is not a widespread view. The second source categorically states that Pakistan is a regional power (and goes on to say that that stymies India's claim to great power status). So, what we have is an analytical source (the first one) that states that this is a minority view and a second source that makes a categorical claim. My guess is that reasonable research (not just a google search for "Is Pakistan a regional power" and then picking up the first references that include all three words - as is obviously what's been done here) will bear out the Regional Power claim but someone needs to do that work. --regentspark (comment) 14:11, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Here's another analytical source, citing RSCT theory, according to which both India and Pakistan are classed as "regional powers" (pg 886-887):

• NOLTE, DETLEF. “How to Compare Regional Powers: Analytical Concepts and Research Topics.” Review of International Studies, vol. 36, no. 4, 2010, pp. 881–901. www.jstor.org/stable/40961959.

I think this pretty much settles it... cӨde1+6^TP 20:46, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Quote, in case it needs to be embedded in the citation, on account of the fact there's dispute on this topic: "In the framework of their regional security complex theory (RSCT), Barry Buzan and Ole Waever differentiate between superpowers and great powers which act and have an impact on the global level (or system level) and regional powers whose influence may be large in their regions but have less of an impact at the global level. This category of regional powers includes Brazil, Egypt, India, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Turkey." cӨde1+6^TP 03:08, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Code16. I am happy to reinstate the mention of 'regional power' along with this statement in the footnotes. I will add a more explanatory paragraph in the body in due course. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:27, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Always a pleasant sight when a productive talk page discussion yields a constructive outcome, over edit warring :) Mar4d (talk) 19:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

India

I have explored sources further. The scholarly consensus is that India is not a regional power and it is not a great power either.

However, it is not accepted as the natural leader of the region except perhaps by Bhutan, certainly not by Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, or even Nepal or more recently the Maldives, all of which have resisted India's wishes or demands. Nor does it have the power of compellence over its regional antagonist Pakistan due to the latter's nuclear deterrent capability... it is doubtful if India enjoys compellent power if it wanted to exert it, within its region given the enormous costs and risks. Hence, by the criterion of dominance, that is, compellent capability, India does not qualify as a regional power, certainly not over Pakistan. It can only deter Pakistan and more doubtfully deter its largest neighbour China. Hence India can be said to have regional weight and influence but not dominance in a way that it can be considered a regional power.

Nevertheless, India has not behaved as a regional power

Thus, from the above balance sheet, we can say that India is a middle power on the rise. At present, India cannot be called a great power and it does not appear that India will emerge as one in the next decade or so.

In fact Pakistan's status as a regional power prevents India from becoming a great power itself.

Part of the reason that India's claim for great power status has not been accepted is that Pakistan still defines a regional pole of power.

These scholarly expert books published in top university presses (Cambridge, Oxford) illustrate the academic consensus. Nauriya, Let's talk 16:10, 6th July, 2018 (UTC)

They don't illustrate consensus, you are just misrepresenting sources. Confirms that India is a regional power. "Great power" is not the point here, there are 1000s of sources saying India is a great power though we don't list it as one yet. If you trying to find sources sharing their opinion contrary to the mainstream opinion about India's status as regional power then consider reading WP:FRINGE. Orientls (talk) 13:15, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

@Nauriya: we are talking about regional power. Nonetheless your sources don't support the point your are attempting to make here. Sdmarathe (talk) 16:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

References

RfC: On quality of sources

Should we add a country only when the supported source/s passes WP:CONTEXTMATTERS? Sdmarathe (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Until now, I have seen sources making passing mention of Pakistan, Venezuela,[41] North Korea,[42] Algeria,[43][44] Ukraine,[45] and many other non-regional powers, without actually explaining in detail how and why these countries are a regional power.

The most interesting case is that of India and Pakistan. We have reliable sources stating that "Pakistan in 1971 was divided into (West) Pakistan and Bangladesh, losing about half its population and a sizable portion of its territory."[46] There are some more reliable sources that further describe India to have become a regional power post its victory in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. They are: [47][48] At this stage, unless there are sources that describe how Pakistan transformed into a regional power after going through the effects of 1971 war, then we could include them but currently none of the sources talk about when and how Pakistan transformed into a regional power, thus failing WP:CONTEXTMATTERS.

The case with Ukraine, Algeria, Venezuela, Ukraine, North Korea and other nations is no different.

The crux of my concern is this: There needs to be reliable sources satisfying WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, a core criteria for evaluating reliable sources, then only we should list the country as "regional power". Sdmarathe (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2018 (UTC) (Requirement of "3 sources" removed per discussion below. Sdmarathe (talk) 13:55, 28 September 2018 (UTC))

• Support as proposing editor. This way we can avoid randomly mentioned countries that are not actually regional powers. Sdmarathe (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support To curb the endless debates about who is a regional power and who isn't. Lorstaking (talk) 06:13, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
• Weak oppose I don't think it is worth the trouble. "Regional power" is a vague idea. A country might be a regional power by some measures but not others. This page is mostly a list article currently. If somebody with a solid understanding of international politics is willing to make it more authoritative, and discuss in detail how each listed country fits the bill, then the WP:CONTEXTMATTERS issues would come to the fore. As long as it remains a list, there is no need to split hairs over it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:21, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

  I disagree with your comment. Whether this article remains a list or is to be developed into a full-fledged article with necessary details about every single regional power is a matter of little importance, because in any case, you can not get rid of the requirement of complying with verifiability and reliable sources policies. You should also note that in the long history of this article, editors never had the incentive to develop it, and likely never will. As is, the article contains names of non-regional powers and heavily relies on unreliable sources and/or sources containing trivial passing mentions, which is why the "WP:CONTEXTMATTERS issues would come to the fore". We can not let the article continue to mislead the readers into believing that certain countries are regional powers, when they are not. So anything we do for the benefit of readers is definitely "worth the trouble". Razer(talk) 09:47, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

  "Trivial passing mentions" are not necessarily worthless. They go to show that a country X is generally accepted as a regional power. But if all the given sources are of that kind, then we have a problem. One can tag them with a {{reliable source?}} tag, and delete them if nobody has anything to better to offer. We don't need an RfC for that. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:35, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - What matters is source quality, not source quantity. If a source merely makes a passing mention without indicating any further information about why that country is a regional power, then it clearly lacks quality. However, if no other source opposes it, then per WP:V, that is what we must present. Our personal opinions about whether or not a country is a regional power means nothing if we do not have at least one source to back our claim. Sources need to be placed in conversation with one another. Establishing an arbitrary "3 sources" requirement is highly counter-productive.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 11:30, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

@MarshalN20: You write "If a source merely makes a passing mention without indicating any further information about why that country is a regional power, then it clearly lacks quality." That is the purpose of the RfC. I have removed "3 sources" as the requirement, and I have modified the original RfC question per your comment. Sdmarathe (talk) 13:55, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

This is just a list with no descriptions where we could present arguments. Although even if we started including descriptions or just continue the present criteria (which supports inclusion of any country even with source providing mere passing mention) then non-regional powers like Algeria, North Korea, Ukraine and others would be also included and that wouldn't be right. This is why I proposed that we need reliable sources passing WP:CONTEXTMATTERS for including a country as "regional power" since this status cannot be ignored if it has been really recognized by relevant reliable sources.

Same was the case with Stateless nations. Anyone would include anything using any kind of "religable source". There was an RfC recently there which can be seen at: Talk:Stateless_nation#RfC_on_sources_required_for_inclusion. The RfC assured that we need at least three sources for inclusion of any name to the article. Sdmarathe (talk) 13:55, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, and comment Time to WP:DROPTHESTICK per above; obvious is obvious. We went through this all already; anyone who takes a cursory glance at the sections above will see source after source. I will emphasise in agreement with what MarshalN20 quoted above: Our personal opinions about whether or not a country is a regional power means nothing if we do not have at least one source to back our claim. In addition, no one was there at WP:NPOVN when your points under dispute were supposed to be taken there. Now suddenly after months, Sdmarathe, you thought it fit to rake this up. Do you not see the futility of this, or do we really need to go around in circles again? Mar4d (talk) 18:15, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - WP:IDONTLIKEIT is never a good way to go. Son of Kolachi (talk) 18:54, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

• If you are saying that passing mentions should be considered contrary to WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, then you need to show why. If this problematic logic is going to be applied then you can also find a number of sources regarding a few countries as "Great power" or "Superpower", which in fact they aren't. I am saying that we should not include any country as regional power that has not been described by any relevant academic sources as one. Lorstaking (talk) 06:16, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

• (Summoned by bot) Support — Per proposal and additional comment by Sdmarathe; we really need to weed out sources which make passing mentions, in addition to removing non-RS sources. I say, that, a nation should only be listed (I really think that we ought to expand this) here if its mention is supported in a non-trivial manner by at least three reliable sources. No comment on the status of individual nations (especially Pakistan), as, I may have a strong bias for or against them. Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 02:06, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support It is an exceptional claim to treat the named countries as a regional power and even if it is not an exceptional claim then still we should opt for multiple reliable sources detailing the country as a regional power as criteria for inclusion. 3 sources should be added with at least 1 or 2 sources being academic. Also agree that passing mentions as Great Power can be also found for some countries but we disregard them per policy and "Regional power" should be treated similarly. Orientls (talk) 10:09, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

User indefinitely blocked by Ad Orientem (see block log). Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 05:43, 5 October 2018 (UTC); edited 05:45, 5 October 2018 (UTC), 05:48, 5 October 2018 (UTC) and 05:47, 5 October 2018 (UTC).

Oppose WP:CONTEXTMATTERS is not relevant in this case. Becoming a regional power isn't like simply climbing a ladder. Every country has different ways of getting to this status and usually strong sources are good enough to add a country to this kind of list. Plus their was a long debate right above this column just to prove why Pakistan should be on this list. I don't think that we need to start from 0 again to debate about whether Pakistan should be on the list or not. As for any other country if they can prove their point with strong citations then WP:CONTEXTMATTERS isn't needed. One example of this kind of situation is like adding China to the list of super powers. Is China a super power or not? Here even though we have great background context as needed in WP:CONTEXTMATTERS we still debate on adding China to the list and we use sources to prove our point instead of saying that China has done this and that to be on the list. This rfc looks more like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Usman47 (talk) 16:05, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - Now that the filer has been topic banned from India-Pakistan conflict area, this RfC should be closed by default because it seems to be filed in WP:BADFAITH. Apparently it was only started because the editor unsuccessfully tried to remove good sources citing Pakistan on the list as seen in earlier discussions. The RfC's opening statement itself indicates a WP:POV tilt. The guy links WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, yet his own argument falls short because he fails to explain how a source on a war fought 50 years ago is relevant today. Mar4d's refs are good quality & discuss in-depth exactly why Pakistan has regional influence. The refs I have looked so far discuss Pakistan's N-weapons development, influence in Afghanistan & Kashmir and other factors that continued after 1971 too.

The user seems to lack the knowledge of what WP:RS are and continuously uses opinionated WP:OR, whilst not trying to disprove the many good references quoted above. As someone said that Pakistan is listed in the article since 2009, we can't go about removing longstanding sources and reliable info just because some POV pushers are not liking it. Wikipedia doesn't work on likes or dislikes - sources matter. We can see no argument is given disproving the sources mentioning Pakistan so far. Son of Kolachi (talk) 17:48, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Son of Kolachi, that topic ban is of not much substance to this RfC; Mar4d's vote was ruled to be not a t-ban violation by BU Rob13. From what I infer, the RfC is about solidifying a policy for adding and removing nations from this list. Like I have said, I am all in favour of removing unreliable sources from this article, in addition to removing trivial, passing mentions of nations in reliable sources. Whilst, in my opinion, some countries listed by Sdmarathe have relatively strong cases for being regional powers, others are not close to being one.

P. S. — I formatted your comment a bit, hope you don't mind. Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 05:27, 5 October 2018 (UTC); edited 07:46, 5 October 2018 (UTC).

• Support Adding at least 3 reliable sources that describes the subject in relation to the country in detail. No comment on specific countries since this will apply for all. Accesscrawl (talk) 08:55, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support - summoned by bot. Yes - the idea that a power is a regional power should be supported by at least one source. I have an issue with using Regional power#Characteristics as the gold standard for defining what is a regional power. It not only unnecessarily complicates the process, but has also caused every entry to violate WP:OVERCITE. One reputable source saying a country is a regional power is all we need. If the single source is questioned, it can, like all others, be discussed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:22, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

I essentially have been trying to argue the same. Please do read my comment below which expands on the same issue. Much regards, Mar4d (talk) 12:57, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Canvassed !vote.∯WBGconverse 12:11, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Oppose: The concept of a regional power as a variable - that can take on different forms and values [49] and having going through the discussion, I found: 1. Seen random mentions of Pakistan being a regional power --- vide 16:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC) of this Talk page. 2. The statement of proposing editor “this way we can avoid randomly mentioned countries that are not actually regional powers”. COMMENTS: it is arbitrary in nature. Before applying editor must establish the accepted basis for regional power in the lead section of the page. 3. This book says Pakistan is a "sub-regional power" -- vide 09:12, 6 July 2018 (UTC) of this talk page Above observations establish the uncertainty of users attempting to include or exclude a country by interpreting implied versions of WP NORMS. 4. Comments and citations made by ".--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:47, 8 July 2018 were filtered with majority and minority concept. Does this cover the reliable and unreliable criteria? Is not a discrimination or an intellectual dishonesty. In fact the discussion challenges WPNPV. Besides explicit ref to Pakistan as “Regional Power” at pages 886-887, implied reference for name of Pakistan has been mentioned twice at pages -881, 883, vide Review of International Studies © British International Studies Association doi: 10.1017/S026021051000135X [50] + Implied ref: [51]. I request to close the discussion without considering minority versus majority concept by striking “RfC: On quality of sources” -- Nannadeem (talk) 23:05, 3 October 2018 (UTC)— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion. See [52] This RfC is not about excluding Pakistan but to abide WP:CONTEXTMATTERS and use reliably descriptive sources to backup the claim of a country being regional power. Being "mentioned twice" doesn't meets that criteria. Orientls (talk) 04:45, 4 October 2018 (UTC) See this and this, as to my collapse.∯WBGconverse 12:11, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support. Providing reliable sources is a basic requirement if you are adding something on Wikipedia. "Reliable" is a necessary word here, so those seeking inclusion of a specific country must read up the policy on identifying reliable sources, where context matters is listed as an essential criterion for judging whether or not a source is reliable for a particular claim. Razer(talk) 14:30, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support. As per my reading, this RfC basically asks two questions: (1) Should the countries be listed as regional powers if the supporting sources meet the reliable sources criteria, especially the context matters criterion and (2) the intriguing conundrum of whether some particular countries are a regional power or not?
  As to the first question, I am of the opinion, that yes, a country can be listed as a regional power in the article if the provided sources are reliable and pass the context matters criterion. I am against the inclusion of countries based on trivial passing mentions in otherwise reliable sources.
  To the second question, which the filer has specifically emphasised, it is necessary to take into consideration the answer to the first question; if we have reliable sources describing in detail whether Pakistan is a regional power, then we should include Pakistan in the article as a regional power, and if we don't, then we won't. --RaviC (talk) 10:50, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Good Support. I think it is a better way to resolve the issue. In order to materialize your input as an amicable solution, simultaneously satisfying the observation put forward by respected Tim Templeton. Without prejudice to all/any citations of subsection-South Asia It is submitted that – citing Buzan/Waever 2003: 34 & 2003:32 Detlef Nolte of GIGA in preliminary version, PDF link here [53] at page-8 paragraph-3 states:

Quote: Regional power hierarchies are also central to another theoretical approach. In the framework of their regional security complex theory(RSCT), Barry Buzan and Ole Wæver32 differentiate between superpowers and great powers which act and have an impact on the global level (or system level) and regional powers whose influence may be large in their regions but have less of an impact at the global level. This category of regional powers includes Brazil, Egypt, India, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Turkey….Quote over

Now it is referred as DETLEF NOLTE (2010) with its citation: How to compare regional powers: analytical concepts and research topics. Review of International Studies, 36, pp 881-901 doi:10.1017/S026021051000135X. See this link [54]. Dreaming for an amicable solution Nannadeem (talk) 21:35, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I have an earnest request to everyone who has commented here that please do not make this another India-Pakistan debate. We already have had canvassing and an editor who went ahead and listed this discussion on the notice board for India and Pakistan related topics as if India and Pakistan are the only two regional powers while other countries don't exist. The issue here is quite complicated and thus a request to rise about petty regional politics. First, Kautilya3 phrases it quite correctly that this is indeed a list article and there exist numerous factors which exist for a regional power. It is thus impossible to use a single or a set of references to either qualify or remove a country. Timtempleton also raises a valid concern that the current characteristics is by no means a gold standard and a single source might make things less chaotic (the current characteristics are actually extrapolated from characteristics for the middle-east and are not valid for all other regions). My strong recommendation would be to put the addition or removal of any countries on hold for the near future and spend some time looking through literature on what is a regional power. Here, we have to be very careful about WP:CIRCULAR (I did examine some of the references presented above which seem to refer back to Wikipedia or other arbitrary surveys or lists created by random organizations). Another strong recommendation would be to not simply list a country name but actually present a paragraph about each country mentioning the context on why it is deemed a Regional Power. Some experts (again we have to careful on who qualifies as an expert) name different countries using different criteria and we need to present their views with the context in the text (we cannot and should not pick and choose sources because they meet our view). So if a expert mentions a country but others don't, we still mention it with the necessary context on why that expert thought so. A good place to list the capabilities of a regional military power would be [IISS] but we need more such sources for economic and cultural influence among others (a country can be either or all but we need to mention so in the description). Again I am stating, for now, to only focus on working towards improving the lead part of the article and the capabilities sections without a focus on specific country names. There are experts which talk about different regional power models such as uni-polar and multi-polar and this needs to be explained before we jump into the list the names. IMO, this process might be arduous but is required if we genuinely wish to improve this article and not just make this about removing/adding a set of countries. Adamgerber80 (talk) 22:36, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi, the editor who "canvassed" and "who went ahead and listed this discussion on the notice board for India and Pakistan related topics" has already been indefinitely blocked so my advice to you would be to avoid sweeping generalizations and accusations. Let's please keep our focus on the issue at hand. I think the interim solution lies in the approach as proposed by the filer and a number of editors including me and Timtempleton, that we indeed keep the entry of regional powers restricted to only those countries for whom there exists reliable sources which describe in detail how these countries are considered as regional powers. Your suggestion that we should list a country with a "paragraph about each country mentioning the context on why it is deemed a Regional Power" sounds fair and I would personally like to see this article developed to that extent; but like I said above, we cannot leave this article in its present state in the hopes that someone will develop it in the future. For that reason, we should move on with the interim solution until such time. Razer(talk) 10:54, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Firstly, Venezuela, North Korea, Algeria and Ukraine are not even listed on the article. Which begs the question, what is this RfC actually trying to achieve? No one is opposed to the use of reliable sources for any entry in this article, and as Timtempleton rightly notes, it's the determinant criteria for anything on Wikipedia; that is also effectively what the core of my discussions in the sections immediately above sought to achieve. Not only is it the sources that matter, but the listing of any country fundamentally ought to be based on the presence of strong sources. I am all for discussing what other countries are deemed as having regional influence, provided there are a significant number of mainstream sources to support that position. Here is where this RfC (and most of the 'support' votes) takes a 180-degree turn. Not only is there a complete lack of direction on how that threshold is determined, but there is a complete lack of discussion on the existing sources which come from the cream of mainstream scholarship. Pakistan's inclusion in the list is supported by the attached sources, all of which are not only excellent mainstream sources, but detailed, in-depth scholarly works on regional powers, and they are all written by experts who are internationally recognised in the field of global relations and political science: Barry Buzan, Ole Wæver, T. V. Paul, James N. Rosenau, Roger Kanet, Samuel P. Huntington. Based simply on the preponderance of references presented, Pakistan more than safely meets the criteria and it would be extremely difficult for anyone to railroad these sources. Like I said before, the crux of the argument lies thus: it is for the mainstream sources to determine facts, not Wikipedians' personal opinions and likes or dislikes. We, as Wikipedians, are not qualified to decide what should be excluded when all the sources and academic scholarship are on one side. So as I said, if anyone thinks sources of mainstream repute and credibility like the ones linked can simply be discarded without credible, refutable arguments, that's not going to happen. These sources are very much here to stay, whether you like them or not. Feel free to discuss other countries however, whose inclusion or exclusion should very much be decided by sources of similar standing. Mar4d (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Sources
References

Yes and these sources you provided (if these are best available for Pakistan) are what this RfC is supposed to exclude from the article, i.e. "passing mentions". They lack the enough context to define how Pakistan could be considered regional power. Also note that you have already posted these sources before[55] and they have been already reviewed. Razer(talk) 13:26, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Razer2115: By the way, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS is also being used out of context by you. It is for usage of sources that are (quote) not related to the principal topics of the publication or sources not focused on the topic at hand where possible. Not one of the sources above (which you claim should be excluded) are on anything other than regional powers. And they are very in-depth too about the exact subject of this article. And the fact that they are mainstream sources on the subject. So returning to your claim of no context, it holds no weight in this case. Mar4d (talk) 13:49, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Mar4d, For a better understanding of this argument, we can take the closest example which is India. Here are two sources for a name[56][57] that establish it as one regional power. They are not passing mention and they pass WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Where as your sources offer little to no description about Pakistan, thus failing WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Because we can discover such passing mentions about other countries as well, it is better to avoid consideration of such information after forming a particular criteria for this list. Razer(talk) 14:01, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

• Wikipedia's core policy WP:RS, and particularly the advice at WP:HISTRS, offer a good overview on the identification of appropriate scholarly sources, which the sources above meet in all domains. Moreover, anyone who is well-versed with Wikipedia's sourcing requirements including the well-articulated use of context-based sources, would agree that the best places to source Pakistan's inclusion would be sources that are purely, and by merit, actually based on the topic of regional powers (duh!), not sources about Mars and aliens obviously. When you write a Wikipedia article on a certain topic, you look for a source that directly explores the subject in question (e.g. regional powers) in length and what it has to say about the content or information being expanded upon. The sources cited presently have done exactly that; they are not only purely and topically based on the subject of international relations, but critically and in great detail, as explored by experts in the field (not amateurs), identify countries which they deem as having an influential role in the international ecosystem. And they do that with the weight of mainstream scholarship and academic credentials behind them. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, that itself is the one and all, and only determinant criteria that purely matters. Editors have to understand that sources trump everything. So far, all we are seeing here are opinion-based comments, and no one seems to have gone to the length of providing supporting references/works (as I have done) to at least lend some credibility to their arguments. Not a single comment so far has even attempted to refute any of the above mainstream sources. The claim about sources offering little to no description is also untrue; since it's going to be fruitless going around in circles, for anyone who's interested in exploring the references in question further, I would strongly urge they go through this section where I thoroughly deconstructed many of these sources in question. One such source is this one which had an entire chapter that critically analyzes Pakistan. The closing paragraphs in particular are worth reading, which I have also produced in the section above. Ironically, this same source was used before to claim that Pakistan was not a regional power, but if anyone with intermediate competency of the English language reads this source in its entirety, the context of this source is more than clear which I also articulated in much detail above. Mar4d (talk) 14:38, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

• Mar4d, you can find reliable sources for many facts that are not generally well known or acceptable. Your comment does not address the issues raised because you are saying that we should rely on passing mention as long as the mention has been made by a reliable source. Don't forget that enough contrary sources had been provided in the same section that not only contradict your sources but also provide more information on this subject. Orientls (talk) 15:24, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Orientls Both common sense, and Wikipedia policy (WP:RS, WP:V) dictates that the best sources to use are the ones that pertain to this article. You're claiming that we should not be using peer-reviewed reliable, mainstream sources about regional powers as a source on an article that is however exactly about regional powers. This is what we call circular reasoning. Care to explain if books by international experts on regional powers should not be used as a reference, as per your logic, then what else should be used? This is a highly absurd and obfuscating argument to make, whereby you attempt to discount sources which are exactly about the subject, that too by authors who have done full, comprehensive studies of the entire subject. Even Wikipedia's sourcing requirements do not support your opinion. Also, I am still waiting for those "contrary" sources; I was presented none last time, and the only one that was claimed to be one was actually not a 'contrary' source at all as the deconstruction above noted not once but as per dozens of passages directly quoted from the source. Mar4d (talk) 15:53, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

How about the numerous sources I had provided that exclude mention of Pakistan[58]? WP:CONTEXTMATTERS is the concern here. WP:RS and WP:V would even justify "Great power" or even a "Superpower" for the countries that are not really one, like it has been discussed already and that's why we are looking for something more than just passing mention. But then again, sources claiming Pakistan a regional power is not even a mainstream view, otherwise why so many competent sources exclude mention of Pakistan? Your sources also claim that Iraq, Syria, Ukraine are also regional powers, though they are not. If you are using such sources that contradict the reality and relevance and if people are going to draw from such passing mentions then there are higher chances of producing factual errors. I am also talking about one of these replies above that detailed the sources which were more professed in this subject and contradicted each of your sources without a doubt. To make it easier for you, do you have sources that "describe how Pakistan transformed into a regional power"? You need to find sources that explicitly address this question that has been asked on the original post of the RfC. For India, you can considerably find more than tons since it is not deniable. We need to make sure similar information exists for Pakistan. You would need more than simply passing mentions when we need sources that provide the necessary information. Orientls (talk) 04:32, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Orientls, we went over these sources already here and here. In case you've forgotten, let me reproduce what was said particularly on all of your sources, given they contradicted your own stance:

This paper acknowledges a publication by Robert Pastor who (quote) "includes Argentina, Iraq, Egypt, Indonesia, and Pakistan in addition to the above-mentioned countries" as regional powers. This link only focuses on a selective group of powers (G4) who failed to attain UNSC seats, and interestingly attributes one of the reasons to an anti-G4 group consisting of active powers like Pakistan, Argentina, Italy, Korea, and Mexico. This one is definitely questionable, as it self-admittedly claims "Russia is excluded from our analysis" and even omits Iran and Israel, all of which are recurrently mentioned in other sources. This page is on Asia-Pacific and, like most other links above, is entirely irrelevant to South Asia.

Also note that great power and regional power are not comparable terms, as the criteria for determining "great powers" is far more strict and stringent than regional powers. Another contradiction in your argument is that you seem to regard all regional powers as equal in terms of parity, but this is factually incorrect; regional powers follow a tier-system, wherein their regional influence is determined independently based on different variables and indicators, not simply their relative stature in comparison to other countries (which is another concept called regional hegemony); this is supported by the literature [59]. Secondly, it is not at all a non-mainstream view when supported by multiple, reliable, mainstream sources which are written by experts who've thoroughly studied the subject, and they have been produced endless times. As far as other countries are concerned, they should similarly have multiple mainstream sources explicitly defining them as regional powers as has been shown for Pakistan. It's not just once source listing Pakistan, but there are multiple of them and they're all very high quality sources. This is where you're losing the argument. Mar4d (talk) 06:59, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

There was no concern with those sources because if Pakistan is a regional power then at least most (if not all) of them should recognize Pakistan as regional power. But they chose not to do so. Regardless of what you went over, you have frequently failed to address the concern with the sources you are using that are nothing more than passing mention. Your suggestion that we have to be "far more strict and stringent than regional powers" when Great power is concerned doesn't really make sense. Given your sources provide passing mention for obvious non-regional powers. As usual, none of your sources have still answered the question (that has been already asked enough times) that "describe how Pakistan transformed into a regional power". It should be simple for you to answer this repeatedly asked question if sources really exists. By repeating same old discussion and sources that were earlier rejected, you are only suggesting that there is deficiency of sources for fulfilling the proposed criteria. Orientls (talk) 07:55, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Oppose: @Sdmarathe Following your comments there are many independent sources ( like this ) which provide reason to the question that why Pakistan is a regional power. What happened in 1971 matters, but what happened after 1971 also matters. Pakistan defeated USSR in Afghanistan, which resulted in the withdrawal of the Soviet Union from Afghanistan. To me it is a summation conflict that arises when sources disagree in conclusions or interpretations that can be drawn from the facts. For example, if one source says that currently low inflation will result in improvements in the economy, and another source says that currently low inflation will lead to a worsening of the economy. Both sources agree that inflation is low, but disagree as to what that means.

It is important to keep in mind that in cases of apparent contradictions, both sources may in fact be correct depending upon the criteria. For example, in the case of the population of a town, the sources may use different boundaries to define the town, or different criteria as to who counts as a member of the population.

So, There is no need to change the Consensus versions, as long as it is organized as a list. HIAS (talk) 09:57, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

References

• HIAS, what exactly are you opposing really ? This is not an "RFC on Pakistan" or a "vote on Pakistan". It is about excluding the sources that don't comply with WP:CONTEXTMATTERS.
• Also note that you are grossly misrepresenting the very source you cited here. your source only verifies that Pakistan is not a regional power and that is completely opposite to your misleading claim. Source states "Pakistan is not often thought of as a regional power.... By most definitions, Pakistan would be difficult to classify as a regional power."[60] The quote you have cited further finds contradiction in the very next para where the author notes that "But the power is as much a relational concept as an absolute one."[61] Given Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 deeply affected Pakistan and India became a regional power following the victory in 1971 war, it is indeed necessary to highlight that war when we are doing this assessment. Also it is incorrect to claim that "Pakistan defeated USSR in Afghanistan", if you feel like that then you should take that issue to Talk:Soviet–Afghan War, because our article Soviet–Afghan War contradicts this thought as well. Kindly familiarize yourself with WP:NOTAFORUM. DBigXrayᗙ 11:49, 7 October 2018 (UTC)