Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 December 5

5 December 2006

Floro Fighting Systems

Floro Fighting Systems (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)

I orginally wrote the page and I did it badly, it was quite spammy. Page has been reformatted to follow Wiki guidelines, and includes references and annoted sections. With the proper formatting and references I would ask that it be overturne.

Marcdscott 04:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

8mm Fuzz

8mm Fuzz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)— (AfD)

I am not entirely sure why this entry was deleted; it actually easily met some of the criteria of Wikipedia:Notability (music) page WP:BAND. It specifically meets the following with ease:

1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.

The following features in the Boston Herald are great examples: [1] [2]

as well as the following feature interview in Boston's Weekly Dig: [3]

Both of these sources are considered noteworthy by Wiki's standards.

It was particularly strange as the order of said criteria changed in the course of said AfD debate, causing one third-party editor to turn against his initial decision of "keep". Quite honestly, none of the editors seemed to address the criteria that was suggested as being legit (as noted by two other editors).

Also, Rule 7 may also be relevant; 8mm Fuzz are a visible and active part of the Great Scott scene that also produced such worldwide touring acts as Protokoll. Psilosybical 19:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Overturn. Strongly. Maybe we can even get an admin to speedy overturn. You can't just overlook Boston Herald articles. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 00:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn. I can't see the contents of the articles, but given that one of them explicitly mentions the band in its lead section, I'd say that's probably non-trivial. Chris cheese whine 01:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC) whine 01:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse delete - AfD ran its course. I recommended its deletion because the article was spam as it was written. Rather than fighting the deletion, I'd recommend writing a sourced, neutral, third person article that is far less promotional in nature. There's nothing barring the writing of a new article on the band, and it would be less contentious this way. B.Wind 02:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn. We rewrite spammy-looking articles that otherwise meet our standards. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Seeing as I'm behind the appeal, I can't really comment. However, what do people find to be "spammy" or "promotional"? Send me a message and I would be happy to oblige with any requests. But I honestly feel that I did a decent job of being neutral, "This is what happened" when I wrote the entry. Psilosybical Psilosybical 22:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• The group's diverse instrumentation and intense, neurotic live shows have made them a unique addition to the Boston music scene sure reads like spam to me. And do not overturn a perfectly legitimate AfD. If you want to write a non-spammy article which proves the band's notability, do so, but there is nothing in policy which allows an overturn of a validly-closed AfD. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• With all due respect, the line can be removed. It's otherwise valid. Psilosybical Psilosybical 22:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

University Hill Elementary School

University Hill Elementary School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)— (AfD)

This article survived an AfD on 25 September 2006. However, reviewing the deletion log, I see the article was speedy deleted per CSD A7. I do not think that A7 should apply to schools (in fact, its application to companies seems to be an end-run around G11, which itself has been debatable). While my opinion in the AfD was "delete", I can abide by the consensus. An article that has undergone an AfD discussion, in which notability was consider, ought not be speedied so soon thereafter. Agent 86 23:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete per nom. A7 shouldn't apply to anything that's already been though an AfD and kept. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete, not per nom. A7 does and should apply to schools, but nothing that survives an AfD attempt should be speedied, ever. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 00:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Nothing should be exempt from any of the deletion criteria, speedy or otherwise, regardless of whether it's a school or company, and regardless of whether or not it survived a previous AfD. Our process is forever evolving, and (hopefully) continually improving. This was evidently contentious, so send it to AfD. Keeping on the grounds of a previous AfD survival is in itself an end-run around process (one of these days I'll find out exactly what an "end-run" is, though). Chris cheese whine 00:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy deletion isn't meant to make it easier to delete controversial things without discussion, it's meant to relieve process restrictions in cases where an article obviously should die. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 00:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete, do not re-AfD. If an article is reviewed to meet our standards, there's no way it meets a speedy criterion. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Jeff, I've been giving you a bye for a long time now, but I may have to rethink my policy on this. There is absolutely nothing which can prevent the speedy deletion of an article which survives AfD only because the proper Wikipedia policies are not followed. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Dragan Nikolić (war criminal)

Zanta

Allow me to start by refering all interested parties to Talk:Zanta#Proposed_deletion, where I responded to a prod tag placed on the article by User:Alkivar. I have created an entry here because I don't feel due process has been followed with the deletion debate on Zanta. I was not given opportunity to respond to User:Alkivar's concerns before the page was deleted.

First of all, let it be known that the Zanta article is sourced, contains verifiable (and indeed verified) claims, asserts notability, and possesses a neutral point of view. The argument for proposed deletion is grounded solely in the issue of whether a subject of predominantly local interest can be sufficiently notable to warrant inclusion.

I wish to take the opportunity here to respond to each of User:Alkivar's arguments in sequence, for the consideration of the broader community with the intent to reach consensus:

Challenge: "Ahh but you see the problem is that his "fame" is entirely local to Toronto. I would say there is sufficient notability if say a newspaper in India or Japan reported on him. But as all sources for notability are local to toronto ... Lets break it down shall we from WP:BIO:"

Response: First, I never asserted that Zanta was "famous" or had any "fame", nor does the article make any assertions of the like. This is a distortion of my statements. I asserted that he was of "local relevance and interest" to Toronto. It is an exceedingly weak argument to say that a subject is notable if and only if that subject has been reported on by foreign newspapers and I don't want to believe that User:Alkivar honestly wishes to stake that claim. The question at hand is not whether the Zanta article is currently of interest to India or Japan, the question is whether the Zanta article meets the basic criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia.

Challenge: "[Quoting from WP:BIO, User:Alkivar writes:] "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person." — it doesnt really count if its only the local/regional paper. The local newspaper in my town of residence (circulation around 35,000 copies) has had 12 stories in the past 10 years with my name in them, and 1 of those 12 was entirely about my business as a DJ... does that make me WP:NOTABLE? I think you'll find just about everyone would agree thats a no."

Refutation: User:Alkivar's interpretation of this section of WP:BIO leaves something to be desired. The quoted section contains no reference to circulation numbers or whether the source must have local, global, or any other kind of distribution. Alkivar furthermore makes an unfair comparision between a subject (A) of contested notability and a subject (B) of no notability, then concludes that since (B) is non-notable, (A) is also non-notable. This is not valid reasoning. Drawing your attention back to the citation from WP:BIO, I challenge Alkivar to prove that the sources cited in Zanta are (a) trivial or, (b) not independent of the Zanta himself. You might argue that one of the sources (the video documentary) is trivial, but then we should be editing its information out of the article, not deleting the article entirely, as the majority of the content within the article is drawn from non-trivial, independently-written newspaper articles.

Challenge: User:Alkivar then goes on to point to different items listed in the notability guidelines of WP:BIO, pointing out all the instances in which Zanta fails to meet the criteria. E.g., "Sportspeople/athletes/competitors", "Notable actors", "Political figures", etc.

Refutation: The implicit argument here is that since Zanta is none of these things, he is therefore not notable. This argument is completely without merit. As stated near the top of WP:BIO, "This is not intended to be an exclusionary list; just because someone doesn't fall into one of these categories doesn't mean an article on the person should automatically be deleted."

In conclusion: I refute the claim that the article should be deleted because it is of predominant interest to residents of Toronto. Local persons of interest are analogous to local places of interest; and unless the articles are poorly written stubs with no potential for future expansion, there are no absolute grounds for deletion on account of localized interest. Citing from Wikipedia:Places of local interest: "If enough reliable and verifiable information exists about the subject to write a full and comprehensive article about it, it may make sense for the subject to have its own article." The same spirit of law which presides over articles of local places applies to articles of locally relevant people. I submit that enough reliable and verifiable information exists about Zanta to write a full and comprehensive article about it, as evidenced by the progress of the article to date. It makes sense for the subject to have its own article, in spite of the fact that it is not of global significance at this time.

Bottom line, although the subject of the Zanta article is not known world-wide it does not follow that he is non-notable. My argument is that Zanta is of relevance and interest to the largest city in Canada and that, since wiki is not paper, the mere fact of localized interest is not sufficient for deletion. Let me restate this: just because someone in the U.S. does not find a particular article notable, it does not make that particular article a waste of wikipedia's storage or any less relevant an encyclopedic entry.

Thanks for your consideration, and I welcome the input of as many editors as possible in reaching consensus on this issue. BFD1 18:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• "First, I never asserted that Zanta was "famous" or had any "fame", nor does the article make any assertions of the like." Then it's a valid A7 speedy. Endorse. Chris cheese whine 19:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Response: Hi, thanks for your input. You have misundersood my point. Notability is asserted; "fame" is not. There is a difference. This argument revolves around notability, not fame. BFD1 19:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You haven't asserted that either. Have a nice day. Chris cheese whine 19:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

As I stated above: First of all, let it be known that the Zanta article is sourced, contains verifiable (and indeed verified) claims, asserts notability, and possesses a neutral point of view. Please refer to the article (for which I have requested a temporary restoration for precisely this reason) for the assertion of notability. Thanks. BFD1 19:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment as i am the original deleter my opinion doesnt really matter that much here. I am not denying that to residents of toronto the guy has relevance and some notoriety, but as EN wikipedia is a global resource, I cannot see that Zanta has any relevance outside of toronto. I guess the argument boils down to "do local niche subjects retain notability outside of their region?" I would argue that no they dont and therefore do not have global relevance as far as WP:BIO is concerned. As such I concluded this to be a valid Criteria A7 deletion.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 19:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

So then, by your reasoning, half the stuff in New York or Tokyo or Paris would be deleted because it is only of seemingly local relevance. This makes no sense. How is wikipedia a "global" resource if it doesn't touch upon interesting and noteworthy aspects of cities across the globe? Would you have wikipedia touch only on international/universal phenomena? And why delete it instead of marking it for review? --Xfireworksx 02:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Overturn. The scope of Wikipedia is large enough to allow, for instance, notable statues, notable landmarks, and other such features of any city their own pages. Any tourist or torontonian encountering this loud, santa-hatted downtown fixture, clad in shorts in the dead of winter, would find him puzzling enough that an explanation from an encyclopedia would be of great value. People years from now encountering photographic evidence of this man would also appreciate it. The article had the correct tone, and included a number of references, at least one from a newspaper with international ciruclation (the Toronto Star). It is, at the very least, worth an proper debate and not a deletion "as per our IRC conversation".Xtormenta 22:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • — Xtormenta (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    • — Xtormenta is a newbie, but not a sockpuppet. She got the account to add to the Zanta article (regarding an alleged banning from the TTC reported on Talk 680 news) a couple weeks back. Perhaps conflict of interest, but also attests to genuine interest of article to general TO public. Xtormenta 04:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Didn't see the article, can't see the article, but if it was prodded and contested, it should be restored and go to AFD as such. If there were reliable sources involved and an attempt to meet WP:V, then A7 may have been a bad idea, especially if it asserted notability. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Move to AFD sounds good to me. When can I expect it? Thanks. BFD1 00:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

IPhone

IPhone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)— (AfD)

In August, this article was deleted per AfD, and (later?) protected against recreation. I contacted the admin who protected it, Nihonjoe, and he userfied the old article content at my request. I have since re-written a whole new article in user space, at User:Schi/iPhone. I have requested comments on the page on the iPhone talk page and on Nihonjoe's talk page and haven't gotten any responses yet. I think the article in user space is currently acceptable for Wikipedia main space, where it will hopefully draw more contributions from other editors. The original article was appropriately deleted as pure speculation, but the new version consists of facts drawn from an array of reliable sources reporting on analysts' predictions, patent filings, and business deals. I believe this should survive the "crystal-ball" claim; in WP:NOT it says (my emphasis): "Of course, we do and should have articles about notable artistic works, essays, or credible research that embody predictions." schi ^talk 17:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC) Withdraw nomination per undeletion below. schi ^talk 23:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The article has been undeleted as I believe it now meets WP:V and WP:N. I've restored the histories as well. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

And I have re-deleted it as this discussion had barely begun and as of yet "rumored" is not a valid verification. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you even read the article? The article included several reliable sources reporting on analysts' predictions and patent filings. schi ^talk 05:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Critical Mass (band)

Critical Mass (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)— (AfD)

This article was deleted per this AFD. Admittedly, there were more delete "votes" than keep "votes", but if one takes a look all the delete "votes" were made on the 24th of November. No additional comments were made until the 26th of November and all comments after that were keeps. One person who commented on the 24th returned on the 28th and commented to keep. The article has been restored and moved to userspace, so here's a diff showing the change that the article went through between the version that was nominated for deletion and the version that was eventually deleted [4]. Note that although the unreferenced tag is still at the top, there are references in the the deleted article. It's always being said that AFD is not a vote, and in this instance it seems that the article changed enough that any consensus to delete may have been outweighed by the change in the article, and the apperance of sources. I asked the closing admin to clarify the process he went through in deciding that the AFD showed a consensus to delete, and the only respose I got was a reminder to assume good faith and a suggestion to go to Deletion review. Perhaps I could have phrased my question better.

Since being restored to userspace the article's creator and I have continued to work on it. Here is the article as it now stands. I would like to move this back into article space without fear of it being deleted again. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)} 15:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Be bold. I don't think you need have any fear of it being deleted. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 15:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, but accept new rewrite. Obviously met WP:MUSIC, so there was absolutely no reason to go with a delete result and I cannot endorse it because of that, but the new article asserts it better anyway. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse what was a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the debate. New version still has some POV issues, but otherwise no objections to it going into mainspace, though. Chris cheese whine 18:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: another name might be appropriate, because there's also a Dutch eurodance group from the early 90s called Critical Mass and a ska band of the same name. I would suggest either Critical Mass (Canadian band) or Critical Mass (christian rock band). Aecis ^{Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984.} 19:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

About the name; it was originally at Critical Mass (rock band) and was moved right before the AFD debate to Critical Mass (band). I agree that "rock band" or maybe even "Christian rock band" is better because there are other bands called Critical Mass. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)} 19:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Blak Jak

Blak Jak (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)— (AfD)

You have articles on several other rappers with as much (or as little) info. Also, the fact that there was only one contributor does not make it unsuitable for Wikipedia. The rapper has certainly become notable as of late, with his two hit singles "Swervin'" (featuring Project Pat, who you do have an article on), and "Bobbin' My Head". His debut album, Place Your Bets, is set to be released December 19, on major label Republic Records.

Also, you have this article protected, so no one with any notable info can create a page. I think this article should be undeleted, or at leat unprotected, so someone with more information can spruce up the page. Recreate, or at least unprotect. Tom Danson 14:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Overturn. Major article in Fader, and the CD is coming out in a couple weeks and is guaranteed to chart. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and list at AfD. Looks like it's worth a full AfD treatment, not a speedy. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Unprotect and let nature take its course. It was a valid speedy IMO for having no assertion of significance, but if someone can write a sourced article that DOES assert significance, so be it. Friday (talk) 16:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia

Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)— (AfD)

This AFD was closed as 'no consensus' by User:Glen S, despite there being a clear consensus to delete, based on both (spit) numbers, and, far, far more importantly, Wikipedia policy. Does WP:NOR get thrown out of the window if a few people make a fuss? Apparently, the answer is yes. Accordingly to many of the keep !votes, 'WP:NOR does not apply to this article', which is, frankly, ludicrous, and shows a basic failure to comprehend what an encyclopaedia is. Many more said 'it's not OR as it has references'. It was a synthesis of references to produce its own conjectured suppositions - which is, by definition, original research. This was a poor close, failing to take into account any kind of consensus in the AFD, and failing to consider the quality and validity of the arguments. Overturn and delete. Proto::► 09:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Overturn, and transwiki to Memory Alpha per Alkivar. The speculative nature of the content makes it a very uneasy fit for Wikipedia, and those who assert that it is sources rely on defining fan sites as reliable sources. Guy (Help!) 10:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Memory Alpha is licensed under CC-by-nc-2.5; we can't transwiki our GFDL material there without the consent of all significant editors of the article. —Cryptic 11:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, although I was leaning toward overturning. Why endorse? Because this is a textbook no consensus. One set of editors claimed that there was an OR violation, but the other set noted that there were sources. When in doubt - and I think there's significant doubt here - don't delete. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  I wrote a bit of a rant about how a 'no consensus' call in this situation is worthless, and counterproductive to both sides of the debate, then lost my train of thought. Jeff, one set of editors understood policy, the other set did not - having sources is not magical pixie dust that stops original research being original research. A synthesis of sourced facts to produce conjecture with no basis in the sources is OR, no matter if it had 17 sources, 170 sources, or 17 thousand sources, and I'm not sure if the minority of those in the AFD who argued for keep, nor the closing administrator, understand that. Apologies to those who did, but if you did, how could you justify using 'it has sources' as a reason for keeping the article when that wasn't the accusation leveled at it? Proto::► 14:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  A disagreement on interpretation of policy is not a reason to delete, and an admin should not use his extra tools to force a certain interpretation over another when no consensus on an interpretation such as here exists. For the record, I don't think the side that claimed there wasn't OR misunderstood it at all. I don't think either side did, honestly, a good case can be made in either direction, with or without pixie dust. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  So you're suggesting that a group of people shouting objections to deletion, no matter how poor their reasoning is, should prevent deletion just because there was disagreement? If this were what we did here, we would not bother doing Afd. The core goals and policies trump baseless objections every time. This is by design. Friday (talk) 16:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  I'm saying that, in the event of two legitimate interpretations, we shouldn't be deleting. Read what I'm saying, please. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  That's true, but not relevant to a situation where there is only one legitimate interpretation, as we have here. Chris cheese whine 19:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  That isn't true about this one, actually. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Overturn and delete. A couple people saying "but this CAN'T be original research, because there are sources!" should not count. Most fancrufty original research comes from sources. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 15:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  Which of course by nature makes it non-original research since it is 'researched' by someone else already and hence no longer can be original. --Cat out 17:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Overturn and delete or make into a protected redirect to the not-intended-solely-to-be-OR version of this, at Starfleet ranks and insignia. Having a seperate article intended for fan speculation and original research is not what Wikipedia is about. There was a consensus among editors who understand the goals of Wikipedia to delete this. Friday (talk) 15:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete I tend toward inclusionism on pop-culture topics but I do draw the line when it comes to non-canon stuff. The way I see it, even Trek-specific wiki Memory Alpha has a fairly strict canon policy and almost certainly would not be accepted there: they have a Starfleet ranks article with all the canonical insignia and the conjectural ones simply say "No known insignia". If a Trek-specific enyclopedia won't cover this, I see no reason why a general-interest encyclopedia should. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close. Sigh... It appears that this senseless drama is going to last all eternity... --Cat out 17:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close. There was no consensus. Yelling things loudly, i.e., obsessively typing more words than those with whom you disagree doesn't make you right. There was a very large disagreement among worthwhile contributors, in spite of Friday's and Proto's insulting language above to the contrary. Also suggest that Friday and Proto temper their language to not disparage individuals who disagree with them. Bastiq▼e ^demandez 17:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete Both counting noses <grimace> and policy clearly support deletion. The entire article was conjecture (as the original title of the article admitted) based on sources. JChap2007 18:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. Deleters charged WP:OR, keepers were unable to defend. Since WP:OR is immune to the effects of consensus (or lack thereof), this should have been at best a no consensus, default to delete rather than no consensus, default to keep. Chris cheese whine 19:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close. Close but fits within the boundaries of admin discretion. Numerically it roughly hit the deletion line, but that's where the admin gets to decide. I do find the sudden concern with numerical consensus from this nominator somewhat ironic given his frequent delete closes against keep majorities (of course, those decisions tend to get overturned here). -JJay 20:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  Majorities are meaningless, because AfD is not a vote. Chris cheese whine 20:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for your opinion. Make sure you tell User:Proto, who starts his renom by indicating the "clear consensus to delete...based on numbers". --JJay 20:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• I think that comment is going to seriously impact people's ability to assume good faith on your part in future. Chris cheese whine 20:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• If you are speaking for yourself, then please refrain from commenting on my remarks in the future. If you are speaking for others, I think you are engaging in unverifiable speculation. --JJay 04:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Any particular reason why I should not comment on your deliberate misrepresentation of Proto's comments? It actually says "based both on numbers and ... Wikipedia policy". There's no way that your comment could possibly have been made in good faith. Chris cheese whine 04:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Your failure (or is it inability?) to assume good faith is quite impressive, along with the dramatic italics and accusation- but just reinforces my previous comment. User:Proto says a lot of things. I mentioned how he "starts" his renom. --JJay 04:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse close: Article contains 17 sources, pure and simple. There were also some personal feelings going on with the nomination itself, in my opinion, as a previous AfD on Warrant Officer (Star Trek) was overturned for its deletion and, to be very blunt, I think this POd some people and they next targeted this article for deletion. Way too many feelings, in both directions about this article, to say it was a clear concensus for delete. -Husnock 20:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  The keep arguments were not sufficiently strong to suggest any reason for keeping it. Consensus is irrelevant, because WP:OR and WP:V are explicitly above consensus. Chris cheese whine 20:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  You are absolutely right. Since article is neither original research (it is based on freaking sources) and that it is verifiable (see the books). It is automatic keep. --Cat out 20:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  "Based on sources" does not mean "not original research" (as was pointed out to you repeatedly in the AfD). That it's in a novel of some kind does not mean it's verifiable (see WP:RS). More importantly, it's clearly not verifiable if to check the information you need to repeat whatever steps you've taken to find the information in the first place. Either way, whether or not the article was or wasn't is not what we're here to discuss. What we are here to discuss is whether or not the claims were meritous. Those claiming it was OR put forward their case for it very clearly. Those claiming it wasn't, didn't. They just said "It's so not OR", leaving the whole part about the conjectural nature of the material, and the filling in the gaps, unanswered. Since they weren't answered, the correct conclusion to draw is that the claims of OR are valid. Chris cheese whine 20:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  Ok so if the people who make star trek write a book about star trek, that makes it an unreliable source. So DO tell me, what would be a reliable source (for the sake of argument)? --Cat out 20:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  Anything that meets the criteria in WP:RS (which excludes self-publication). You seem to be making the mistake that every small detail about every book ever published on the subject merits inclusion in an encyclopaedia. Chris cheese whine 21:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  Please do not change the subject. So I ask you again. What would be a "reliable source" for star trek rank insignias since I can't use The Star Trek Encyclopedia (as per your argument). Don't cite a policy cite the types of sources you feel I should be using. --Cat out 21:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  Without wanting to rehash the AfD itself, the onus is on you. Chris cheese whine 21:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  The evidence has been provided. If you're challenging it, explain why. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Overturn and delete per Husnock's stunning display of bad faith in deciding why people voted to delete at AfD, and per Proto's arguments. It should be noted that the original title of the article was CONJECTURAL Ranks and that during the course of the AfD many keep votes displayed a certain level of disdain for policy simply because they liked it. The arguments used to suggest keeping (which would ostensibly lead to no concensus) should have been overlooked by the closing admin as spurious with the possible exception of Newyorkbrad. Most tellingly, in terms of is this a proper close, is that many keep votes denied there was any original research in the article whatsoever. If the article is undeleted, and people go to remove the OR, what will remain will not be an article. --Elaragirl^Talk|Count 20:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

We don't live in Cuba. If I have a personal opinion that there were some personal motiviations for the AfD, then I have every right to say so. And I never called a specific person to such a charge nor called anyone names, unlike you who spoke of me as "contemptible" on the Admin Noticeboard [5]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Husnock (talk • contribs)

• Plea: Please, everyone, can we not repeat the Afd? Anyone who wants to read people arguing about sources can see this all very plainly in the Afd. We're not trying to repeat the Afd- we're trying to evaluate the closure of it. Friday (talk) 21:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  Which seems to be the source of the problem, isn't it? --Cat out 21:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• A story: back in the town where I used to live, there was a fellow who used to go around downtown and on campus with signs declaring his belief that John Lennon's death was the handiwork of an unholy conspiracy between Richard Nixon and Stephen King. Quite a story, and I can understand your skepticism, but he had proof! From reliable sources! which he would display, namely newspaper headlines from the New York Times and other (very respectable and reliable) newspapers, from which he had helpfully decoded the secret messages demonstrating the depths of this conspiracy. Eventually, he wound up in King's hometown, where the local police, for some reason, remained entirely unconvinced by his copious references. (Hmmm, checking Google, it looks like he's joined the 21st century and now has a website.)
• The moral: it's not the lack of footnotes you have or the sources you cite, it's what you do with the information that makes original research. So overturn and delete, per my original recommendation. --Calton | Talk 00:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure I see nothing wrong with the closure of this AfD. VegaDark 01:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close (keep) If there is this much effort to the discussion it must be that the subject is both notable and verifiable, because otherwise there wouldn't be anything much to argue about. It's not a vote, but if so many people from various places in WP think it is worth keeping, it is. Keep is the safe policy when in doubt.DGG 01:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy overturn and delete, improper close. !Votes to keep do not trump the policy of verifiability. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Dekoy

Dekoy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)— (AfD)

Overturn 69.61.253.106 06:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC) This article was deleted as unnotable, however several of the rules from the Wikipedia:Notability (music) page WP:BAND would seem to apply here as defining the band as notable.

Specifically "A musician or ensemble ... is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria"

1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.

The following reviews would qualify - there are others as well. Side-line Music Magazine, a print and web magazine [6] Regen Magazine [7]

2. Has had a charted hit on any national music chart, in at least one large or medium-sized country. As referenced in the wikipedia entry, Dekoy debuted with their first album placing on the Deutsche_Alternative_Charts.

Additionally, it can be noted that Dekoy is very well known in the Cincinnati Area Futurepop/Goth/Industrial scene - such as it is. Rule 7 may have bearing as well.

• While I'm not sure if the reviews would actually qualify, if you have any sort of evidence regarding the Deutsche Alt Chart, this could be rather cut and dry. Got anything at all? --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Retrieving the DAC report now, I should have it within the next day or so.

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, trialsanderrors 07:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Could someone please temp-undelete this (and protect blank, as usual) so that nonadmins can comment on the debate? --ais523 09:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Done. Guy (Help!) 10:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse, allow recreation The article that was deleted deserved to be deleted; the sources were low-quality, the page was mostly advertising, it didn't assert much notability, and it was written in an unencylcopaedic style. If the sources given in this DRv are correct, though, the subject is notable and should probably have an article, just not the one that was deleted. Allow undeletion to userspace if a user thinks the information here would be useful in writing another article. --ais523 13:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ali Sina

Ali Sina (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)(deleted history) — AFD 1, AfD 2

The administrator who deleted this page said the result of the vote was to delete, but I counted the votes and it was a tie.--Sefringle 03:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The article was re-created by Karl Meier, not as a repost but as a stub, but I think we probably ought to finish this first. I have undeleted the history so people can review it. Guy (Help!) 11:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• AfD is not a vote. I stand by my close. Mackensen (talk) 03:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Mackensen, you wrote: "If actual reliable sources can be found outside his own website ...". You deleted the page because it doesnt have reliable sources? How is that a reason to delete a page? --Matt57 03:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • You're kidding, right? Mackensen (talk) 03:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Matt, independant reliable sources which assert Ali Sina's notability to a satisfactory degree are required. he currently does not meet the requirements of WP:BIO. ITAQALLAH 03:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Mackensen, you could have kept the article and told people to find reliable sources. Its not that reliable sources dont exist for this article. Its just they havent been included in the article yet. Give people some more time to include reliable sources. There are hundreds of articles that are in development and dont cite third party sources such as Zakir Naik, which is also under review for deletion. If Ali Sina was deleted due to lack of third party sources, it would be fair for Zakir Naik to be deleted as well. --Matt57 05:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • This article was nominated for deletion a year ago as well, but in a year's time, no one found any reliable secondary source. Actually, this is true for the last two years, since creation of this article. TruthSpreader^Talk 05:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • And how long do we wait for people to find and add these sources? A day? a week? a month? As pointed out it had been in existance for a long time and no one bothered, it was on AFD for a week and no one bothered. If material in an article isn't verifiable it should be removed pending the sources, if that means the whole article it is deleted. If someone later finds sources then the can come to WP:DRV specify those sources and if need be the material will be restored to resolve that issue. (Assuming there weren't any other issues in the AFD). We don't keep stuff hanging around indefinitely waiting for someone to put it right, quality not quantity. --pgk 09:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually was a keep by vote count Keep 18 Delete 17 Neutral 1 . Mackensen please reverse the delete since the results are contrary to your claim.Clearly there was no consensus reached thus its a keep per Wikipedia:Guide_to_deletion which states: An AFD decision is either to "keep" or "delete" the article. AFD discussions which fail to reach rough consensus default to KEEP --CltFn 04:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Policy also says: "Please also note that closing admins are expected and required to exercise their judgment in order to make sure that the decision complies with the spirit of all Wikipedia policy and with the project goal." TruthSpreader^Talk 05:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • This is not a vote. BhaiSaab ^talk 04:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion it is quite surprising to see that this article failed to have much in the way of reliable sources given that the hit counter for FaithFreedom.org (his site) is showing over 4 million hits. In light of that User:Mackensen correctly determined that deletion was the proper course of action. (→Netscott) 03:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion The arguments to keep are extremely weak. Many of the people voting keep seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of Wikipedia:Reliable sources. There is simple very little that can be found about this personality in reliable sources. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse Deletion - I'm not wasting diskspace copy pasting what Netscott said -- Tawker 03:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse Deletion - as per →Netscott. --TruthSpreader^Talk 03:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn Although there currently are few reliable sources found on the article other than his website, he is notable, and for that reason he warrents an article.--Sefringle 03:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • If he is notable then you should have no difficulty finding reliable independent published sources; notability on Wikipedia does not mean "I have heard of him". There has been almost a year since the first AfD, in which reliable sources could have been found, and there has been more than 2 years since the article was created. If you think the article should exist on Wikipedia, you are welcome to find reliable independent sources, but given the length of time in which those sources could have been found, it looks like they do not exist. —Centrx→talk • 03:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't think you're supposed to be commenting a second time, Sefringle. Although I do not agree in saying that he is notable, if for arguments purposes I did agree, an article about a so-called notable person that has no reliable sources can serve no meaningful purpose on Wikipedia other than to advertise his website for him. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn He is very notable, having debated famous Muslim leaders, and produced a very influential website. At the very least we should make it clear that the author of this website calls himself Ali Sina, and have Ali Sina be the title of the article about the owner of the website. Arrow740 03:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Where are the third-party sources about that? —Centrx→talk • 03:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • If the hit counter is to be believed and the site passes WP:WEB then an article about it may be warranted. (→Netscott) 03:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
      • I don't think it meets any of the criteria at WP:WEB. BhaiSaab ^talk 04:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • A self proclaimed exchange of insulting/stupid e-mails with scholars doesnot constitute a debate anyways. F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 19:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn How can you delete the page when the result was a tie, the result should be NO CONSENSUS.--CltFn 03:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The article was mere advertisement of his website without any secondary source reference. TruthSpreader^Talk 03:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • AfD is not a vote. BhaiSaab ^talk 04:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per "You're kidding, right?" --Striver 03:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion — independant reliable sources, anyone? ITAQALLAH 03:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion and shiver at the thought of what Wikipedia would look like if mindless headcount were a substitute for valid arguments. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 05:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • *cough* - 152.91.9.144 07:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • And you don't want to know how I feel about that. At least it's only determining eligibility to possibly be picked. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 15:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion and applaud Mackensen for taking a little initiative. -FunnyMan 06:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per Netscott--Aminz 07:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn: In total there are 36 votes. 18 Keep, 17 Delete and one neutral. The result is Keep. OceanSplash 08:05, 5 December 2006
  • No keep results comes when 75%-80% people say it keep. The result was neither keep nor delete. ---- ALM 08:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • If he does not exist how his articles can appear in books and why in the editorial review he is called A Major Scholar Check out [Amazon.com?] Can you show the rule that says 80% of the votes must be keep in order to keep an article? Are you saying only 21% of the editors can overturn the vote of 79% of the voters?OceanSplash 08:26, 5 December 2006
      • It is not a poll. What the above comment means is: in practice, if 80% of the people think it should be kept, it is usually an appropriate encyclopedia article, whereas with less than that amount it is more common that the article may not meet Wikipedia content policies yet have a majority that are not considering those content policies. —Centrx→talk • 16:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion We always says that AFD is not a vote and your comments count. I have seen it happening for the first time and I am impressed with the admin who has done that. If we cannot prove the existance of a person using reliable resources then all the other comments set aside, the article does not has any rational to exist. --- ALM 08:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion as per my AfD vote. -- Szvest Ω ^{Wiki Me Up ®} 09:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, closer made the correct decision. Proto::► 10:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn. Another revolting piece of evidence that some admins here doesn't respect the opinions of other Wikipedian's and believe they can make such decisions on their own, despite no consensus being reached. Properly around 90 percent of Wikipedia's articles should be deleted if we should act and delete articles according to Mackensen's criteria, and the article did have a lot of valuable information that could have been developed instead. It's too bad. But the Faitfreedom.org article will be interesting to work on instead, with Ali Sina as a redirect to that page. -- Karl Meier 10:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Let's get on it then. Mackensen (talk) 11:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. I read through the AfD, and it seems to me that the keep arguments are that because he Googles well we should ignore the fact that all the sources track right back to himself. There appear to be none (0) reliable sources of biographical data on this subject. It is the site, not the person, who is notable. The article has been around long enough that if the lack of sources was fixable, one would have expected it to be fixed, so the close seems to me to be valid per Mackensen's closing arguments. As to Karl's comment, allowing opinion to override policy would be revolting. It would also make this entire endeavour completely worthless. Feel free to fix the sourcing issues, at which point we can have an article. Guy (Help!) 11:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you seriously believe that we shouldn't have articles about writers that want to remain anonymous? Anyway, I just did what the deleting admin recommended and fixed the problem with the sources and recreated the article as a stub, but for some reason that was removed too... -- Karl Meier 11:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion. As I said in the AfD page, he isn't notable, he's anonymous, runs a site which claims to be an 'organization'. Overall It's a good thing for the article to have been deleted so that wikipedia is no longer used as a traffic generator. His 'debates' with people are like someone posting their IRC chat logs and saying "I have discussed with 100+ people the benefits of sleeping late". And - the AfD isn't a vote, there were no convincing arguments to keep the article (from my observation). thestick 11:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion It very well might be the article on wikipedia that was taking traffic to his website, as his article (if I can remember) had the full agenda of his website. Hence, search engines would give his website a higher ranking when the description on his article was matching with website's description. Herald_reply 11:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion Not enough sources independent of the person (see WP:BIO). Raphael1 12:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn. There are a lot of people who are far less notable than Ali Sina, but who neverthless have their own article. So either delete all the articles about bloggers, webmasters, and online famous persons, or just keep the article.--Vincent_shooter 12:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  see inclusion is not an indicator of notability, we don't set such precedents and a mere assertion that they are "less notable" doesn't mean much. If for whatever level of notability they have more verifiable third party reliable sources, then they are already well ahead. --81.19.57.170 12:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: As Mackensen said, we can recreate the article if we can bring reliable sources. Thats what we'll do. --Matt57 14:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you provide these reliable sources now and stop this article from being deleted. TruthSpreader^Talk 15:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you hold on? It will happen with time. If enough sources are brought in the article will be undeleted. --Matt57 03:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Please have a look at the history of the article. It has already been given one year to prove its notability since its last AFD. Actually, the article has been on wikipedia for more than two years. No body can do much about it. TruthSpreader^Talk 03:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion Not enough sources, Identity Disputed, Existence Disputed, and i think matt57 is very fascinated by this disputed Ali sina group work and anti muslim bias.Mak82hyd 18:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion As per everybody.F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 19:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Karl Meier has now created a short article on Faith Freedom International which demonstrates notability by reference to coverage in reliable secondary sources; I have therefore boldly redirected Ali Sina to that article. FFI is up for AfD, but is unlikely to be deleted, in my view. Guy (Help!) 21:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • There is only one non-trivial discussion over this website and that is by worldnetdaily, which is an American conservative news site. We need multiple to prove its notability as per WP:WEB. Other coverages by jihadwatch doesn't have much in it as they are almost its sister websites. Other links on the article are all trivial coverages. TruthSpreader^Talk 02:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion as per admins comments that "If actual reliable sources can be found outside his own website ...". The article was a bit lopsided. I guess we wait for his book to be published and then recreate the aticle as that would then automatically generate the sources. It certainly sets a nice high standard for our editing pages that could be construed as contrary to Sina's views. Ttiotsw 03:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Traditional Britain Group

Traditional Britain Group (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (AfD)

How can a minute group of four or five people get a reasonable information page like this deleted so quickly? The Traditional Britain Group is fairly well-known. People like Simon Heffer just don't accept invitations as dinner guests-of-honour for minor groups. The quip by one of its detractors that their dinner notices must be paid for is pathetic. Firstly, notices on the Court & Social pages are not always paid for (although they may have paid for theirs). It is at the discretion of the page editor. Secondly, all major dinners, memorial services, etc., appear on these pages under the same terms and conditions. It is not "advertising". I think you need to reassess some of you notability terms and conditions. Total and absolute reliance on the press is not enough. You might be hard-pressed, for instance, to find anything at all on the Chelsea Conservative Association, but it has been very active for over a century and is notable. I think you ought to reconsider this deletion which appears somewhat spiteful. Chelsea Tory 12:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Note This was at the bottom of the November 29 log, but seems to be new from the time stamp, so I'm moving it here. ~ trialsanderrors 00:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. WP:IDONTLIKETHEARGUMENTS isn't a reason for overturning. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 05:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. AFD process looks fine to me, and the reason makes sense. From an individual's point of view, it would seem to be a big and powerful group, but in the Grand Scheme of Things, it's just not an important enough group to meet notability. This kind of organization are a dime a dozen. -FunnyMan
• Endorse deletion, perfectly valid close. This appears to be more vanispamcruftisement from the Lauder-Frost fanclub. A redirect to Western Goals Institute would be OK, although I note that the WGI article is a vile piece of soapboxing and needs a Wikihatchet taken to it. At least some people will have heard of the WGI, I live in England and can't recall ever having heard the Traditional Britain Group mentioned in the media (which, given their minimal Google presence, is not all that surprising). Guy (Help!) 11:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

E-Sword

E-Sword (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)— (AfD)

Out of process clousre. In Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/E-Sword (second nomination), the only comment calling for deletion was from the nominator. He raised notability concerns. Multiple comments called for keeping the article and addressed those notability concerns. Closed as delete due to no cited sources, but this wasn't raised in AfD & should lead to cleanup, not to deletion. As there was no consensus for deletion, it should either be kept or sent back to AfD to discuss any WP:V concerns. Karnesky 16:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• This debate turned on an assertion of notability. Keep voters asserted notability without providing a measure of proof, which is no assertion at all. I saw no other honest way to close the debate. Of course re-creation with actual sources, in an encyclopedic tone, remains a valid and encouraged option. I endorse my original close. Best, Mackensen (talk) 16:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. If there are no sources, there are no sources. It doesn't matter how many people discuss that. Articles with no sources get deleted. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 16:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse per above. This is an encyclopedia. Friday (talk) 16:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. My objection was the AfD process, not whether the content of the article satisfied WP:V. Isn't AfD about WP:CON and not one admin's opinion?

However, allow me to provide a few sources here--I have no interest in recreating the article myself, but these could improve a restored or recreated article. It demonstrates that an article COULD satisfy WP:V and WP:SOFTWARE. It was awarded a best software award by PocketPC Mag in 2004 and was a finalist in 2005 and is nominated in 2006. It has been reviewed by "Dr. Gizmo" Al Fasoldt of The Post-Standard (August 11, 2004, but I don't have an electronic subscription) and in York Daily Record (again--no subscription, but google news archives had an excerpt). --Karnesky 17:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Consensus does not trump olicy. Verifiy with reliable sources, or delete. No reliable sources of notability have been forthcoming. Endorse closure. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse WP:IUSEIT doesn't trump WP:RS or WP:V but if you have enough sources now be bold and create a new article. Whispering 17:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I actually DON'T use it (and don't think I could--I use Linux). And many of the people who claimed to use it on the AfD were anonymous or brand new accounts. I don't think you should even recognize those claims here. What harm is there in undeleting and cleaning it up or undeleting and actually discussing whether deletion is warranted? --Karnesky 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

That discussion already happened. The article as it stood was an advertisement with no sources. That is not acceptable. You are free, of course, to create an article with actual sources, although you've indicated that you have no interest in doing so. In that light, your insistence that the article be undeleted is perverse and borders on the irresponsible. Mackensen (talk) 17:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes--and the discussion reads to me as "keep" after notability concerns were raised. WP:RS and WP:V weren't raised. It is not that I have no interest in recreating it--it is that I am unqualified to do so. I know what I've read from a few reviews. I don't think I'm being perverse or irresponsible in wanting process to be followed. Why contribute when people ignore WP:CON? Perhaps I do protest too much, but it is because I don't see anyone talking about process. --Karnesky 17:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure they were--by the nomination, even if indirectly. As an administrator I'm expected to be capable of adding two and two together and producing four (or five, for very large values of two). I didn't ignore WP:CON, I ignored the arguments that ignored policy. If there were sources you should have added them to the article. Mackensen (talk) 17:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's agree to disagree, I guess.WP:SOFTWARE does state that "multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company itself" is a criteria for notability. I don't think my argument in the AfD (which made that point) should have been ignored--I think someone should have asked me to provide actual references for the published works I found through the search I cited. That--to me--is consensus building. --Karnesky 18:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't provide references when asked. You don't provide references when the article is at risk of deletion. You provide them as a matter of course. This is a basic requirement for building an encyclopaedia. Chris cheese whine 19:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you can point out where I was asked? The first time I saw this article was in AfD. The AfD didn't ask for references, but I pointed out that there were references. Yes--I could have added them to the article or to the AfD, but there was never any call for that. --Karnesky 21:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you miss the part where I said you're supposed to provide references as a matter of course, not wait until you're asked for them? Chris cheese whine 21:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I misunderstood what you wrote. At the risk of wiki lawyering, WP:Deletion policy states that the correct procedure is still to follow WP:V and to tag the article with {{cleanup-verify}}. I am not an admin (so can't see the page), but I don't think that was done. It states that "if it is truly unverifiable, it may be deleted." Arguments in the AfD said that it would be verifiable. Why recreate from scratch when we could just cleanup? --Karnesky 00:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion, and a Farepak hamper to the admin. Keep arguments had no grounding in this or any other reality. Chris cheese whine 19:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• restore and improve, per Karnseky. This may not be the usual way of looking at these questions , but I'd say that the very fact of this much disputation about the question this would indicate a sufficient probability of notability and suitability in general to keep the page and improve it. I tried to add a little based on the web site, but I'm no specialist.DGG 01:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Penumbra (game)

Penumbra (game) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history) — (AfD)

The article about Penumbra has been deleted before because the game was only a tech demo. Since that deletion (and the article's recreation), Penumbra has expanded into a full commercial game that has received the mention and interest of major gaming websites such as Gamespot and IGN. It is possible that the game will be digitally distributed on Steam: a major market for gaming. The full game is significant enough to warrant its own article. The focus of the article as of now is on the tech demo, but it could easily be changed to place the emphasis on the full game being developed.

I also think it's incredibly unfair because the second deletion was only a proposed one. The template said to remove it if any reason was seen as to why the article should be kept (there was no actual AfD involved). I brought the argument up on the talk page and removed the notice, and a few hours later, the article was deleted. That aside though, I still think the article should be remade to focus more on the full version of Penumbra. ShadowMan1od 22:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• I fixed the link to point to the AfD debate, as it should. Chris cheese whine 00:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • That's an AfD from the first time the article was deleted though (which isn't the one this is contesting, but oh well :P). ShadowMan1od 00:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    • If it's felt the situation hasn't changed enough for it to not apply, though. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 00:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Now that you mention it, I guess that's the whole issue of debate. All the votes to delete it in that AfD were because it was just a college project and it wasn't notable enough. It's gone beyond that phase now, so should it still be deleted for the same reasons? ShadowMan1od 01:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• The second deletion wasn't a proposed deletion -- I placed the {{prod}} and then it was brought to my attention that the article had already failed an AfD, so I deleted it without letting the prod run its course, and told this user to come here to have it undeleted. I do note several references in Google. However, I don't know if the article truly passes notability, it's possibly close. Andre (talk) 02:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)