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November 11

Per cent or percentage??

If my knowledge is correct, "per cent" was always 2 words until the 1960's; whereas "percentage" was always a single word. Is this right?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:28, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

According to Google ngrams, the usage of "percent" has increased steadily through the 20th century, but there were some uses in the 19th century. According to Etymology Online, "percentage" dates from 1789. CodeTalker (talk) 16:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course "per cent" is two words. Who ever writes "perannum", "perhead", "percapita", "perse", "perdiem" or "perarduaadastra"? Nobody, that's who. Yes, some people do concatenate it into a single word "percent", but some people also write "alot", "awhile", "atall" etc. This is pure ignorance, not something to be slavishly copied. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Finns write "perse", but only when they are naughty. JIP | Talk 19:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course "percent" is a word, Georgia guy. The OED lists this as a spelling recorded from the 1700's, though it does not give any examples before 1900. Jack's first sentence is of course true. His next two sentences are completely and utterly irrelevant to the current discussion. As for his calumny of people who don't follow his pet rules... --ColinFine (talk) 19:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At one time the expression was "per centum", with "per cent." as an abbreviation. Then the period was dropped, then the space, and finally people discovered the % sign and realized that there was never a need to spell out "percent" in the first place. (I'm speaking jocularly here, but I've read enough older publications to know that this has been the general sequence of things.) --76.69.116.4 (talk) 09:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just as the name of the sport evolved from "base ball" to "base-ball" to "baseball". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would guess that "per cent" went out of fashion to avoid confusion, because a "cent" is another name for a penny, a common coin in many nations. So, "per cent" could also mean "You can buy this many items for one penny". Of course, these days, you can't buy much for a penny, but that wasn't always the case. See penny (unit). SinisterLefty (talk) 20:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Checking Newspapers.com for "per cent" vs. "percent" from 2000 to date, "percent" occurs about 10 times as often. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:45, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comparing the two words in the corpus, it seems that since about 1971, the favored form is "percent" over "per cent". --Jayron 32 13:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that any two words used in conjunction (in order) tend to be joined into a single word, over time. For example, "anybody". And the more often they are used together, the more quickly they may tend to be joined. SinisterLefty (talk) 13:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cannot. --Jayron 32 19:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the two parts have tended to be separated in recent times. However, most don't realise that "cannot" and "can not" mean quite different things. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:19, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How so? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:JackofOz, please explain how "can not", "cannot" and "can't" could possibly mean different things. JIP | Talk 11:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not JackofOz but: "I cannot sleep" means that I am unable to sleep, "I can not sleep" means that I have the option of staying awake. Admittedly this second example would usually have a shift in tone to emphasize the difference, but that doesn't work in print. --Khajidha (talk) 12:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Cannot" is the straight negation of "can". Example: I can swim the length of the pool, but I cannot swim around the world.

"Can not" is a different kettle of fish. She says: I wish you'd stay home and keep me company tonight, rather than going to the pub with the boys. He replies: Well, I can not go to the pub, but if I stay home I'm watching the ball game. She says: I'm filing for divorce tomorrow. "Not go to the pub" is the object of "can"; even though it's expressed in the negative, it's still something he can do. It's another way of saying "Well, I can stay home tonight, but ...". In this context, "cannot" would be completely wrong.

I never mentioned "can't", but it's an abbreviation for "cannot". It certainly is NOT an abbreviation for "can not". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:18, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can you all find any source for the claim that "cannot" and "can not" are two different things? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

wikt:cannot pretty much says they mean the same thing. JIP | Talk 12:27, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know about a source, I just know that I have encountered (and even used) the distinction. --Khajidha (talk) 12:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Indications are that the "can not" is used in situations where it's useful to separate them, but that otherwise "cannot" and "can not" are the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They're clearly not "the same thing", just as "a lot" and "alot" are not the same thing. They might be used to mean the same thing, but they're spelled differently. Spelling is important. Spelling matters. No dictionary in the world says that "alot" is a valid word, even though its existence is beyond doubt. There should be a Commission of Inquiry to determine why people join words that should be separate, and separate words that should be joined. The world is full of rebel and know-nothing spellers. Are we to be led by such advocates of ignorance? Not this little black duck. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I still want to be sure here, especially because I'm not a native English speaker. Do "cannot" and "can not" mean the same thing or not? JIP | Talk 20:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As is quite often the case in the English language, yes, and no. [1] suggests that they may. But, as Jack has pointed out already, "can not" has meaning which "cannot" does not have. Bazza (talk) 20:54, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No. No one has yet cited any source (other than personal opinion) that they are different. Your link demonstrates, as with other sources, that they are the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:06, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's not as simple as that, he patiently explained. There are some cases where the two are used interchangeably, but other cases where they most definitely cannot be so used. As with its and it's, it's best to keep them separate. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:23, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why should I believe you instead of the sources? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:28, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[2], [3], [4]. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(You're welcome. Don't mention it.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:53, 18 November 2019 (UTC) [reply]

There's no such word as "alot", except in erroneous construction.[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

November 12

Uyghur detection camera

[6] links to an archive.org snapshot of a page written in Chinese. The page looks like a routine spec sheet for a conventional TV camera (lists the dimensions, sensor size, etc.) but based on the HN comments it sounds like the camera might contain some machine vision stuff to identify the ethnicity of people it surveils. Can someone who reads Chinese look at the specs and report if it says anything interesting along those lines? Thanks. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 07:10, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, the story is here. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 10:49, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Here is the archived page in Chinese, as linked at ycombinator.com site:

https://web.archive.org/web/20191107042500/http://www1.hikvision.com/cn/prgs.aspx?c_kind=2&c_kind2=2&c_kind3=445&c_kind4=446&id=42808

I do not know a single word or a single character of Chinese, so can not tell what is and what isn't in the text. But I've put the URL into Google Translate and here is the result:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=pl&tab=rT1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20191107042500%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww1.hikvision.com%2Fcn%2Fprgs.aspx%3Fc_kind%3D2%26c_kind2%3D2%26c_kind3%3D445%26c_kind4%3D446%26id%3D42808

Alas, the link to the hikvision site is not allowed at Wikipedia. so you'll have to copy and paste the URLs into your browser.

The translation appears a description of DS-2CD7A2XYZ-JM/RX camera. It contains, among others specifications:

System functions

.....
Support the gender attributes of the analyst's goals (male, female), support the racial attributes of the analyst's goals (such as Uighurs, Hans), and ethnic color attributes (such as whites, yellows, blacks); support analysts whether to wear glasses, whether to wear Mask, whether to wear a hat, whether to have a beard, the recognition accuracy is not less than 90%

Hope that answers your questions. --CiaPan (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

American Sign Language

This seems to be the right place to ask this (Talk:Sign language does not seem to be frequently visited). What's the meaning of the message this person signs?

Open to play video.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Thank you in advance. --Blutgretchen (talk) 07:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I made it so the video doesn't automatically play, which can be annoying. SinisterLefty (talk) 14:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC) [reply]

Just as well, as it looks like a gorilla. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So no one here can speak American Sign Language, seriously?! No one? Not a single person can even stumble through in pigeon sign?...and no one knows anyone who can decipher this for us? This is a dark reflection on the reference desk as a collective. We should be ashamed. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 16:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's about 20-30 people who answer basically all of the questions around here. It would not be unusual if none of them spoke American Sign Language. Indeed, many are British or Australian or from other English speaking countries; where even if they knew their local sign language, would not be able to translate (British Sign Language is not mutually intelligible with American Sign Language). Something like 2% of the US population has a functional knowledge of ASL. 2% of 30 people is less than one person. So no, I would not have the expectation that this question would have been answered by now, and if you don't have the answer, you would do very well to shut your mouth and not berate other people who don't also know the answer. You've added nothing to the discussion except insults. Good day sir. --Jayron 32 16:59, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More likely is that, of the many Wikipedians who understand American Sign Language, not a single one of them has looked at this page in the past two days. Dbfirs 16:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Might have better luck posting to the talk page for ASL. Presumably some of the people who edit that article actually know it. SinisterLefty (talk) 17:43, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

November 15

Architectural term

Is there an architectural term for these sorts of decorative balconies for statues in the interior? If not in English, Russian would also do. Brandmeister^talk 18:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Niche ? Those are typically only large enough for one statue, though. SinisterLefty (talk) 18:25, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A niche is recessed against a flat wall, not protruding. I'm not sure it has a word different than merely balcony, which is a protrusion offset with a balustrade or railing, pretty much exactly what is in that picture. --Jayron 32 18:45, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

However, a niche does at least get to the purpose being the display of a statue, while balcony doesn't normally mean that. SinisterLefty (talk) 18:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I would say that you're allowed to put a statue in a niche, but so are you allowed to put one on a balcony. Being allowed to do something does not make it a defining characteristic. There are many uses of a niche, and storing a statue is but one of many. The article at Wikipedia mentions several things that may be stored in a niche, from statuary to tabernacles to reliquaries. In a columbarium, niches are used to store funary urns. Really the list is endless, bounded only by one's ability to find objects that are smaller than the niche itself. --Jayron 32 19:21, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since 5 out of 5 of the pics in the article show statues/busts in niches, this appears to be the primary use for niches, which is not the case for balconies. When I Google "architectural niche", I mostly get empty ones, but of those that aren't empty, most contain some form of statue. SinisterLefty (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

An extensive Google search suggests that on the rare occasions when statues are placed on a balcony, the architectural term is "balcony". The most notable example appears to be Napoleon statue in the balcony of Les Invalides, Paris. Alansplodge (talk) 09:40, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

November 17

Foreign language translation

If I have a PDF document in a foreign language ... is there some (free, no-cost) way through "Google Translate" (or any other way) to translate the PDF file to English? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:32, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How many pages? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe 2 pages. Or so. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's small enough you could try copying-and-pasting the text into Google Translate. Keeping in mind that there's no guarantee of a perfect translation, but it's worth a shot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:29, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you can "copy and paste" from a PDF file? I never knew that. Thanks. I will try that. Thank you. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:21, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Depends how the pdf was made in the first place. If it was just an optical scan then you can't copy-paste from it, but if it was generated from something like a Word document then you can. --Viennese Waltz 08:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For clarity, if it's an optical scan then you can only copy if whoever made the PDF OCRed it before hand or otherwise put text in the background, and it might not be accurate.I mention this because quite a few PDFs are like this. Also some PDFs may be made as images rather than scans, in these cases although it was probably not that hard to add copyable text, often they probably don't since it may partially defeat the reason they are making it as an image. Also even for non scans, there's no guarantee you can copy and paste. PDFs have DRM which most readers will respect which can disallow copying (among other things). Some PDFs although they are not scans or images are made in weird ways, probably for DRM like reasons, where they do weird stuff like use custom fonts or even make vector images for the text so copying doesn't work properly. Nil Einne (talk) 10:07, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As noted above, if it's text from a Word document or something, you should be able to copy-and-paste. If it's a picture, you would need to open a text file and start typing the words as best you can. I would just retype a couple of sentences and see if the results make any sense, before retyping the whole thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:12, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What language from and to and we may be able to help further. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 10:47, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

November 18

acronyms and initialisms

Most acronyms and initialisms in English only take one letter (the first letter) from each word. But there are some counter-examples where more than one letter are taken:

CCTV - Closed-circuit television

HTML - Hypertext Markup Language

1. Is there a name for this phenomenon?

2. Are there more examples of this? Mũeller (talk) 04:30, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

2. CW, CCW and ACW. LSD, PABA, DNA, RNA, HDTV. SinisterLefty (talk) 04:45, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Mũeller (talk) 05:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

another one: HTML Mũeller (talk) 05:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That was in your initial post. Plain old TV is another, along with anything else with TV in it, like SDTV, MTV, and HGTV. SinisterLefty (talk) 05:58, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mũeller -- not sure whether there's a specific name for this, but it's taking a letter from each stem in a linguistic compound word. Conversely, function words can be left out, as in Laser for "light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation". AnonMoos (talk) 07:57, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

...or left in, as in FOIA. SinisterLefty (talk) 08:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you would like to have a name for this phenomenon, you should invent one! The first letter isn't the most important thing when it comes to initialisms. Since the 90s, for example, initialisms including the prefix ex- have used the letter x instead of e. Wordbreaks aren't of great importance to someone who coins one. It's more important to be understood, and the obvious TLA or 4LA for a particular term usually goes "how would we do this in a hurry, without so many vowels?" And, the other reason is to disambig. There must be many things that share the initialism of CCT, or HML, or T. Temerarius (talk) 08:08, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

...In the woodpile

Not safe for work warning. Please see this article...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/prince-andrew-caught-in-n-word-row-former-downing-street-aide-rohan-silva-accuses-duke-of-york-of-using-offensive-phrase/ar-BBWWa8Y?ocid=spartandhp

I would please like to know how this expression has the desired meaning, why would anyone be in a woodpile, and even if they were how would this be a problem? What is the etymology of this expression, which I assume predates modern times. I have heard it before. It is deeply offensive. I have looked up the meaning of the word in the presumption that it may have a secondary confutation such as a faggot being a bundle of wood. It appears to only have one meaning. Thanks Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 14:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For etymology: according to the Oxford English Dictionary, its earliest usage can be traced to 1843 during the era of the Underground Railroad in the United States, when it was used in song lyrics to reference slaves who hid in piles of wood while fleeing north to freedom. The phrase later came to mean an “unknown factor affecting a situation in an adverse way,” or a hidden problem. Lectonar (talk) 14:55, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article Nigger in the woodpile which includes the 1860 anti-Lincoln cartoon File:The Nigger in the Woodpile.jpg... AnonMoos (talk) 15:27, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's what it is. It has nothing to do with faggot being a bundle of wood. And I see the article mentions the euphemistic expression by W.C. Fields, "an Ethiopian in the fuel supply." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:47, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Names for the number 20

How come Latin and Greek have special names for the number 20 but English simply uses a term meanings two tens?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Score. Bazza (talk) 16:05, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can't speculate as to why "score" went out of fashion, but the fewer special names, the easier it is to learn. English still has special names for 11-19, where "onety-one" through "onety-nine" would have followed the same pattern as higher numbers. At least 13-19 have a pattern, if different. 11 and 12 follow no pattern at all. And 20-29 and 30-39 should properly be "twoty..." and "threety..", not "twenty" and "thirty". SinisterLefty (talk) 16:09, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's a lot of historical linguistic complexity involved which isn't obvious from the modern forms. "Twenty" is more closely related to "twain" than "two", and "thirty" shows the same inversion seen in "bird" (from earlier English brid). In fact, since "third", "thirteen", and "thirty" all show the inversion, it's "three" which is isolated... AnonMoos (talk) 16:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore on AnonMoos's answer regarding "historical linguistic complexity"; as was explained before when you asked similar questions, language change is essentially arbitrary. Languages do change, but they often change in ways that don't have causes. See this video here, at about the 3 minute mark, where a languages and dialects expert explains that we don't know why languages change in a particular manner. The changes can be tracked after the fact, but there is no predictive manner to explain why a language will change in a specific manner. Thus, when you ask a question like "how come", the only way to answer it is to let you know a simple etymology of the words, describing the changes that did occur. However, there is no root cause for linguistic differences in a causal sense. There just is no meaningful way to answer "how come", other than to say "these things are mostly random and arbitrary". --Jayron 32 17:07, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd modify that a bit to say there is often no identifiable cause. Presumably when each person decided to use the term "twenty" rather than "score", they had some reason, it just hasn't been recorded for posterity (and Lincoln must have had a reason to stick with "score" in the Gettysburg Address). SinisterLefty (talk) 17:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on what you mean by "cause". If you mean "what was the event that preceded this", that is something different than "what was the reason why this happened". The first can be identified, at least hypothetically, for language changes, even at the individual person (idiolect) level. The second meaning of cause is completely unknowable, because language change does not happen in a predictable manner; that is data from one set of linguistic changes cannot be applied to any other situation. That's the essence of what the source I cite above explains. --Jayron 32 17:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Our Vigesimal article has some examples of how counting in scores in English was once more common. three score and ten and Four score and seven years ago... are examples. In the UK, 20 shillings used to equal one pound Sterling. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alansplodge, your answer has the keyword, vigesimal. It is based on the Latin word for 20; and as I said above 20 has a special name in each of Latin and Greek, but in English it has a name meaning simply two tens. Both the Latin and Greek names for 20 derived from the PIE word for 20, which likewise was distinct from that for 2. Georgia guy (talk) 17:06, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that I understand your point; vigesimal is used in the same way as decimal in English. We do have two words, "twenty" and "score", the latter is still widely understood if a bit old fashioned. "Score" is British slang for a twenty pound note by the way. Alansplodge (talk) 17:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alansplodge, "vigesimal" is a word of Latin origin. "Icosahedron" is a word of Greek origin. The words are not "bigesimal" and "diacontahedron", as they would have been if those languages simply used "two tens" as their word for 20. Latin and Greek have special names for the number 20 that is derived from the PIE word for 20. But in English, we don't have such a word; the word "twenty" means two tens. Georgia guy (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps that's just the way it is. Pity the poor Welsh, who have to say "one on ten and four twenty" if they want to say ninety one. Alansplodge (talk) 18:03, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

French is similar; 91 in French is "quatre-vignt-onze", literally "four-twenty-eleven". --Jayron 32 18:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia_guy -- The hypothetical "regular" Latin and Greek words for 20 would more likely be duginta and δυωκοντα... Anyway, one reason why 11-20 might be different from 21-99 is that 20 is the maximum number obtainable by counting on fingers and toes. AnonMoos (talk) 18:22, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wiktionary, the Latin viginti means two tens.[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:19, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Viginti is the same word as (probably unattested) bicenti, depending on one's accent. I bet that the word 'cent' came from originally meant ten rather than 100. Temerarius (talk) 19:28, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For the relationship between the roots of the -gint part in viginti and the cent- of centum, see wikt:Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ḱm̥tóm. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And thus, to sum up the answer to the original question of "how come Latin and Greek have special names for the number 20 but English simply uses a term meanings two tens?": All three languages have words that originally meant "two-tens", only that the Latin and Greek words reflect an older iteration and are therefore less transparent. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:56, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How gratifying that the Tocharian A for twenty is "wiki". :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:50, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tommy

Hiya. A question to the Brits regarding the usage of "Tommy": A while ago I wrote the articles on de:Taffy, de:Jock (Ethnophaulismus) and de:Paddy (Ethnophaulismus) over at the German Wikipedia and noticed that there doesn't seem to be a corresponding nickname for the English or English soldiers (much like the English don't have their own parliament). Except maybe "Tommy", but that struck me as a rather different beast, meaning "soldier" first and foremost just as Bobby means "policeman", and only secondly "British" (or "English"?), so I left that article untouched. Now someone (not me) has moved the article from de:Tommy (Soldat) to de:Tommy (Ethnophaulismus) though and I started to wonder again. So here goes: Is "Tommy"/"the Tommies" ever used or taken to mean "the English" (or at least "English soldier") in the same way that "Jock", "Taffy" and "Paddy" are applied to the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish, respectively, or does it only ever mean "soldier of the British Army, regardless the origin and regiment"? I vaguely suspect that Jock and Tommy are mutually exclusive, or at least that a member of the Royal Regiment of Scotland, say, would rather be nicknamed Jock than Tommy, usage-wise, in England at least. --77.183.38.143 (talk) 16:08, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tommy Atkins... -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:29, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The situation is confused by the fact that English and British were used interchangeably in the UK before the Great War and continue to be used that way by foreigners. People tend not to make nicknames for themselves, so see Glossary of names for the British, but proving that any particular name applies exclusively to English rather than British people might well be problematic. Alansplodge (talk) 16:59, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I know full well that Tommy doesn't mean exclusively "English bloke", but as I wrote I suspect that it may in some instances designate an Englishman/English soldier, especially if used in conjunction with/as opposed to "Jock" or "Taffy". But judging by your bemused answers that is not the case...(also, "Tommy" is in fact one of those rare nicknames "made for themselves", the British Army that is, another aspect in which it differs from Taffy/Jock/Paddy). --2A01:C22:340D:CE00:1855:3940:C61:2784 (talk) 17:34, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 208: / Line 208: @@
 :[[Tommy Atkins]]... -- [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 16:29, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
-::::Not all that reliable an article, it turns out; it claims that ''The Oxford English Dictionary states its origin as "arising out of the casual use of this name in the specimen forms given in the official regulations from 1815 onward"; the citation references Collection of Orders, Regulations, etc., pp. 75–87, published by the War Office, 31 August 1815,'' but the OED neither states nor quotes any such thing, I just checked... --[[Special:Contributions/2A01:C22:340D:CE00:1855:3940:C61:2784|2A01:C22:340D:CE00:1855:3940:C61:2784]] ([[User talk:2A01:C22:340D:CE00:1855:3940:C61:2784|talk]]) 19:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 ::The situation is confused by the fact that English and British were used interchangeably in the UK before the Great War and continue to be used that way by foreigners. People tend not to make nicknames for themselves, so see [[Glossary of names for the British]], but proving that any particular name applies exclusively to English rather than British people might well be problematic.  [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 16:59, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 :::I know full well that Tommy doesn't mean exclusively "English bloke", but as I wrote I suspect that it may in some instances designate an Englishman/English soldier, especially if used in conjunction with/as opposed to "Jock" or "Taffy". But judging by your bemused answers that is not the case...(also, "Tommy" is in fact one of those rare nicknames "made for themselves", the British Army that is, another aspect in which it differs from Taffy/Jock/Paddy). --[[Special:Contributions/2A01:C22:340D:CE00:1855:3940:C61:2784|2A01:C22:340D:CE00:1855:3940:C61:2784]] ([[User talk:2A01:C22:340D:CE00:1855:3940:C61:2784|talk]]) 17:34, 18 November 2019 (UTC)