Talk:2021 Meron crowd crush

Hebrew article link

The English and Russian stubs need to be linked to the Hebrew article: https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%91%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%AA_%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%91%D7%A8_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%97%D7%90%D7%99_(2021). Item https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q106651383 needs to be merged with the Hebrew article item https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q106651376. Ethanbas ^(talk) 02:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Reactions

@Abductive - I noticed you removed the reactions from US and EU officials as you wrote it's "boilerplate". How is it more boilerplate than Netanyahu's? Would you prefer if it was summarized? (I had looked at this page which I had come across in the past: Reactions to the 2008 Mumbai_attacks#International_reactions) | MK17b | (talk) 04:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Those predictable responses can best be summarised as "the leaders of Foobar, Goobar and Hoobar expressed sympathy and condolences" with appropriate cites and minus the flags. WWGB (talk) 05:03, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking of removing that too, but probably the section will fill in with the investigation and other aspects of the aftermath. Abductive (reasoning) 06:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you Mk17b, this is an important, WP:DUE chunk that is missing from the article. JBchrch (talk) 11:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Earlier warnings and Kupershtok no longer the organiser

The passage was already reported in 2018 as dangerous [1], and in 2021 it was the first year in over a decade that the regular event orgenizer Rebbe. Z. Kupershtok(בן ציון קופרשטוק) which was commenly known as the Father Of Meron [2] was not at the site. In previous years Mr. Kupershtok was in charge of preventing disasters and planning safety meassures but he had died due to coivd19 in 2020. Shouldn't that be in the background ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.19.127.140 (talk • contribs) 06:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Correct coord

I don't know if the coordinates are correct because the article in the hebrew language says that there are others (near the city of Meron) - EugεnS¡m¡on 07:36, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

The site of the gathering is Mount Meron, not the city of Meron, Israel. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:40, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Look at the Google Maps incident alert - [3] - EugεnS¡m¡on 08:10, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I fixed it. The incident occured in the stairway of the Tomb of Rabbi Simeon Bar Yochai. Sokuya (talk) 14:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

1911 disaster

I think it is worth mentioning that there was a disaster 110 years ago in the same place on Lag BaOmer This is not the first time that tragedy marred the celebrations in Meron—in 1911, a roof collapsed on revelers and nine people died, ranging from an eight-year-old to a 65 year-old https://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/5117886/jewish/Scores-Crushed-to-Death-at-Packed-Lag-BaOmer-Event-in-Meron-Israel.htm Sokuya (talk) 08:09, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Not only same place, but more significantly: same event, same population of celebrants. This content appears in the lead paragraph of the Mount Meron page and could certainly be added here. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:13, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

 Done I've added information on the 1911 disaster to the background section. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 08:19, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• The following sentence fragment "a crowd of about 10,000 filled the compound and a surrounding a nearly overlook collapsed" is incomprehensible. Please fix. 73.81.122.188 (talk) 14:12, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 1 May 2021

2021 Meron stampede → 2021 Meron crowd crush – There has already been a lot of debate about this above, but in summary my opinion is that the use of "stampede" is an extremely loaded term and should be avoided. Contrary to what's written above this is not original research, as reliable sources such as [4] (which is used in our own crowd crush article) say the term is rejected by academics. On the extremely rare occasions that a real stampede happens – that is, people running over you – it is unlikely to be fatal. “If you look at the analysis, I’ve not seen any instances of the cause of mass fatalities being a stampede,” says Keith Still, professor of crowd science at Manchester Metropolitan University. “People don’t die because they panic. They panic because they are dying.”. Obviously I'm aware that many sources are indeed calling it a stampede, but it's more ubiquitously called a "crush" - most sources saying "stampede" also seem to say "crush", while plenty of sources such as the BBC avoid the use of the loaded "stampede" altogether. Finally, regarding the year I am less concerned about that, and I would also support Meron crowd crush as a second choice, but in general I favour inclusion of years for WP:RECOGNIZE reasons and as per similar unambiguous examples like 2016 Munich shooting and 2021 Hualien train derailment.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:06, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Whilst "crowd crush" is technically accurate, "stampede" or "disaster" is the Wikipedian vernacular. The main article is Crowd crush; the subsection list is "Examples of stampedes and crushes"; none of the incidents listed (except for this one) is a denoted as a crush. That said, I await the translation of the Hebrew. kencf0618 (talk) 10:23, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The page has gone through multiple titles whose combinations have included:

  Year: Include 2021 or not

  Location: Israel, Mount Meron, or Meron

  Incident type: Stampede or crush—Bagumba (talk) 10:18, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

  Also worth noting that the original title was 2021 Israel stampede. There hadn't been as much debate on the locality question, which is why I restored it to "Meron" again this morning rather than to "Israel".  — Amakuru (talk) 10:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Move to Meron crowd crush.

a) The year isn't needed, because it's a major, well-known event; the only one of its type at this location. The 1911 disaster there wasn't a crowd crush or a stampede.

b) The location - rather than merely the country - should be in the title. It took place in Meron, not on Mount Meron.

c) It was a crowd crush rather than a stampede, despite many media sources using the latter term. Jim Michael (talk) 10:28, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Keep "stampede" in title. According to WP:COMMONNAME, Wikipedia [...] generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). [...] In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets [...]. Looking at the front pages of the world, only UK sources use the term "crush" — the rest of the world uses the term "stampede". "Stampede" is used by the New York Times [5], The Washington Post [6], the Wall Street Journal [7], AlJazeera [8], Reuters [9] and the Jerusalem Post [10]. "Crush" is used by The Guardian [11], the BBC [12] and the Times [13]. There is, in other words, a clear tendency in reliable sources of using the term "stampede" over the term "crush". In any case, since Israel is not part of the UK, there is no reason to favour UK terminology. JBchrch (talk) 10:37, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

  This argument completely fails to address the neutrality issue. At the end of the day, this is a *descriptive* title. There's no official name for this incident, which means that we use the title to describe the event in a way that is recognizable. As such, we follow WP:NDESC, which warns us to ""avoid judgmental and non-neutral words". I've explained above that reliable sources have flagged "stampede" on this basis, and it's therefore preferable for Wikipedia to steer clear of that by using neutral language which also recognizably describes the event.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:44, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

  My understanding is the following: if there is a consensus among reliable sources as to the name of a particular event (as is the case for most newsworthy events), then we must use this name per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOVNAME. If such a consensus cannot be found, and if we editors have to decide on a title, then we must apply WP:CRITERIA and WP:NDESC. It's funny that this discussion would come up right now, because I am working on a draft where there is no consensus on how to name the event in question, so I had to come up with something myself.

  Regardless, it looks like the correct work is actually stampede. From what I could gather looking at the Cambridge dictionary [14][15] and the Oxford English Dictionary [16][17], it's "stampede" that applies when crowds are panicking, moving or fleeing, which was the case here. JBchrch (talk) 13:33, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

  You hit the nail on the head with your quote "if there is a consensus among reliable sources as to the name of a particular event". There clearly isn't though, because numerous sources are actively avoiding the term you favour. When sources are actively telling us this is a problematic term, it's simply wrong for us to be perpetuating it like this.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:57, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

  On the subject of only UK sources use the term "crush" — the rest of the world uses the term "stampede", six of the eight sources on the page that use 'stampede' (New York Times, Sky News, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Stars and Stripes, Associated Press) are American, so I'm thinking stampede is actually only "the correct word" in American English. And 'stampede' doesn't apply when a crowd is just moving, only when it is panicked or fleeing (see OED, again); which in fact wasn't the case here. Moonraker12 (talk) 18:05, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Not necessarily arguing for crush over stampede, but crush is not limited to UK sources. See "Crush at religious festival in Israel's Mount Meron kills 45 people". CNN, "After Meron tragedy: How to survive a crowd crush". The Jerusalem Post, "Israel seeks to identify 45 dead in crush". Australian Associated Press.—Bagumba (talk) 10:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Mention year because of the 1911 disaster when the railing break and people fell and died. Mentioning the year indicating that it somewhat a repeat disaster. Sokuya (talk) 11:17, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

  In 1911, people fell and died when a railing broke.[18] It was neither a stampede nor crush.—Bagumba (talk) 11:24, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed - the only way that we'd need the year in the title is if we decide to use disaster in it rather than crush or stampede. Jim Michael (talk) 12:04, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, keep stampede. "Meron stampede" has 40 000 Ghits while "Meron crush" has 3500 Ghits. Clearly the more common name. WWGB (talk) 11:31, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

  The same search terms without quotation marks around them yield 19 million hits for meron crush and 14 million hits for meron stampede. Einsof (talk) 11:49, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. "Stampede" just isn't accurate and there are enough journalists getting it right by calling it a crush that we should prefer the latter. Einsof (talk) 11:51, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, stampede is more commonly used. — Berrely • ^Talk∕_Contribs 12:05, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support "crush" wording. I've stated reasons elsewhere in this Talk page, and the relevant points have been made by others in this discussion. Essentially: 1. both "stampede" and "crush" are used by sources, there's no unique accepted term; 2. what happened was clearly not uncontrolled running but squashing people slowly. Academic sources consider "stampede" wrong. Pol098 (talk) 13:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: If 'crowd crush' fails WP:COMMONNAME, but 'stampede' is non-neutral (which I agree is the case) the answer per WP:TITLE is something neutral and descriptive, like 'incident', or 'tragedy', or 'disaster' (See other, similar articles for examples). Also, if we are going to make an exception for this article, when the sources used call it a stampede, we should take the same view across the board; one of the objections to the use of the term 'stampede' in these cases is that it is discriminatory (we object only when it happens to 'people like us'; compare, for example, Category:Human stampedes in the United Kingdom with Category:Human stampedes in Saudi Arabia). Moonraker12 (talk) 14:03, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to those cats. Inside, many of those pages do not have the word stampede in them. I would support name changes on most of the articles which are also clearly not stampedes by definition. Shuki (talk) 20:25, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• "Meron crowd crush", largely per Jim Michael. There's no clear winner between "stampede" and "(crowd) crush" COMMONNAME-wise, which means we can use our editorial discretion, and there are multiple good reasons to prefer the latter, both for academic accuracy and in light of the general bias toward using "stampede" for events that happen outside the West. Given that this is a) the only event of its kind in Meron and b) very notable: Disambiguation by year is unnecessary. That would only be necessary if there were actual ambiguity with another event, or if a very generic term like "incident" were being used. The 1911 event wasn't a stampede; there will probably be some people who mix it up with one, but that's what hatnotes are for—see, e.g. 1993 World Trade Center bombing. -- Tamzin (they/she) | o toki tawa mi. 17:37, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support "crush" wording. It is inaccurate to call it a stampede when the facts and video show that this was an overcrowding issue, not some mass rush on impulse or flight from some other reason. This specific event does not fall under any common use of the term stampede. Shuki (talk) 20:15, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Condolences

I think it's good to have written which countries sent condolences. But I wonder how it is best to be written if it includes a lot of countries. Or is it just good to separate them by commas? Adam080 (talk) 18:14, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

A minor rant here. Nothing personal toward you: I'm aware that these sections are widespread, but after years of encountering them, I still don't really understand their purpose. It's pretty much a given that after a mass casualty, many countries will send condolences, in a manner that's essentially just a function of how close they are geopolitically. Occasionally you get a notable departure from this like Israel offering aid to Lebanon after the 2020 Beirut explosion despite being in a state of war, or, in the other direction, if a country pointedly didn't send condolences when you'd expect them to... But the rest of the time, I really don't see how it adds information to the article that is likely to be useful to our readers. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 18:28, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree in some point, maybe it would be too much to put all of them. Adam080 (talk) 19:05, 1 May 2021 (UTC)