Talk:The Holocaust

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 April 2021

For it to be mentioned in the first paragraph of the article that the Holocaust is an event where 17 million people were killed, which includes 6 million Jews, not that it was an event where 6million Jews were killed. Most people think they killed 6 million people, when they actually murdered 11million more. The Nazis did not just hate one group, they hated anyone that wasn't them. This should be at the top, not halfway down the article as if gays, disabled and the gypsies, and POWs are some kind of afterthought. 86.150.81.87 (talk) 12:41, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. That's a pretty contentious change you're requesting. You'll need to get consensus for this change before anything will be done. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:49, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

It seems like the definition in this first paragraph should be brought in line with the definition in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims It is non-sensical to define the Holocaust as Jewish-only and then listen the many millions of non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

Siiiimo (talk) 18:16, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Simon

No. Holocaust specifically refers to the genocide of six million Jews. Don't try to be accused of antisemitism. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 10:37, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Well then certainly the holocaust victim page has to be edited to remove all the references to non-Jewish victims. What page would you suggest they be moved to? Siiiimo (talk) 20:10, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

No - there were other victims of the Holocaust. This does not change the fact that the Holocaust was the genocide of European Jewry. Stop trying to redefine the Holocaust. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 14:30, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

"Germany" v. "Nazi Germany"

This semantic question was hashed out on this page several years ago. It has come up again so I will summarize the consensus that was created then. The actions of a state - whether it be Germany or any other state - are referred to by the name of that state. Hence, "Germany invaded Poland" not "Nazi Germany invaded Poland" - just as one would say that "the United States invaded Vietnam", not "The Democratic United States invaded Vietnam." Similarly, "German policy", not "Nazi policy" when referring to government policies. The fact that Germany today is no longer "Nazi Germany" is irrelevant, as Germany today is the same national entity as Germany in 1941.

However, when referring to the era of German history, "Nazi Germany" is indeed appropriate in order to distinguish it from other historical eras. It's part of their history. Germany didn't disappear during the Nazi era, it was still 100% Germany.Narc (talk) 07:25, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

First of all, I don't see such consensus, since you didn't provide a link. And even if it existed, that was years ago, as you said. You need a new consensus to implement your changes to the long-standing version. Second, see WP:Get the point. As I explained you before, the link you added here goes to the German state created in 1990. Nothing to do with the Holocaust whatsoever. Nazi Germany or the Third Reich was the country or state that perpetrated the Holocaust, not the Federal Republic of Germany. And "Nazi Germany" is not a political party, but the German state that existed from 1933 to 1945. There's an entire article about it, you should read it. Germany today is NOT the same national entity as in 1941, not even close. We must be more precise pointing out the state that carried out this genocide. You can make an RfC if you want. I'm sure you will lose. Until then, don't touch the article's introduction.--SoaringLL (talk) 16:04, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Fully agree with SoaringLL. Nazi Germany was a specific state; it does not refer to the Nazi Party controlling Germany. The modern German state that exists today (and that was formed 45 years after the end of WWII) did not perpetrate the Holocaust. Similar to how the French Third Republic is an entirely different political entity from modern-day France. Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 19:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, are you all referring to this link: Germany ?? If so, read it, it has an entire section on the Nazi period. Same Germany.... "Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor of Germany"..."Germany also reacquired control of the Saarland in 1935".... no use of the term "Nazi Germany" there.Narc (talk) 21:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Narcissus14: You will notice that the section in the Germany article discussing Nazi Germany (and the Weimar Republic) clearly and explicitly says: Main articles: Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany. Also note that Nazi Germany already has its own article. The Weimar Republic, Nazi Germany, and the Federal Republic of Germany are all separate and distinct political entities that have existed at separate points in time. Only one (Nazi Germany, which again, has its own article and is a different thing from modern day Germany) perpetrated the Holocaust. Based on my linear understanding of time, the Federal Republic of Germany could not have perpetrated the Holocaust as it did not come into existence until nearly five decades later. Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 00:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

All true, but you are ignoring the main point, that Germany is not limited to modern Germany, it refers to the German nation, and includes Nazi Germany, and that Germany is not limited to the FRG, and that the German nation perpetuated the Holocaust. Why do you want to absolve the German nation from their history? I will bring you a further argument - the entity that you want to say is the perpetrator of the Holocaust, Nazi German is actually (per that article) properly called German Reich, and if you read that article, it states: "The Federal Republic of Germany asserted, following its establishment in 1949, that within its boundaries it was the sole legal continuation of the German Reich". They are one and the same.Narc (talk) 14:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Assuming for the sake of argument that Nazi Germany is a subset of Germany, it's still better to use the more specific "Nazi Germany" than the vaguer "Germany". To go with your example, it was Nazi Germany that invaded Poland, not the German Empire or the FDR. Just saying "Germany" leaves that distinction unclear. Levivich ^harass/_hound 14:50, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

On the contrary, doing so has two problems - (1) it whitewashes the truth a bit - it creates greater cultural distance between the perpetrators (the German people) and the actions. It was not the actions of the Nazis alone, it was the German nation. (2) It is inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia; for instance, above user SoaringLL used the example of the French Republic - throughout the article on Napoleonic Wars the article frequently refers to "France" as opposed to "Napoleonic France" or "The French Empire". Similarly, the United States invaded Vietnam, not Democratic United States.Narc (talk) 14:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

This didn't have consensus when you raised it in 2012. It didn't have consensus when you raised it in 2017. Last time you tried to make this change in 2018, it didn't have consensus then, either. Still no consensus and now you're edit warring in 2021. Time to drop the stick. Levivich ^harass/_hound 15:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

You still haven't justified why "Nazi Germany" makes sense here but "Imperial France" doesn't make sense by the Napoleonic Wars etc. I'm not talking about the linking, that doesn't bother me. It was the nation-state (yes, a social-construct) that committed the acts, not a subset of it. It was the official act of the state. Why would you want to minimize that? It doesn't make it clearer, it actual obfuscates it. You sound like you want to absolve Germany of the crimes. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that's how it comes across. "Germany invaded Poland" is much more forceful and to the point than "Nazi Germany invaded Poland". No, you say, it wasn't Germany, it was the aberration called Nazi Germany (which is not even an official name)??? Narc (talk) 19:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Using your own words: "It was the official act of the state." The "state" in question is Nazi Germany. Using the phrase "Nazi Germany" does not in any way obfuscate who the perpetrators were. Nazi Germany was not an aberration, it was a country that existed for twelve years that did indeed invade Poland. The German nation is not collectively responsible for the Shoah (nation being defined as "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory"). The reason it just says "Germany" throughout the rest of the article is because repeating "Nazi Germany" over and over is repetitive and bad writing. Gwyneth Kate Paltrow's article introduces her as such, and the rest of the article just says "Paltrow" because it's easier to read. The same as literally every single page on this website. Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 03:17, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

"Nation" is a social construct. For better or worse, people don't get to choose where they are born. It is no more a German youth of today's responsibility than any other youth's.

Leaving that point aside, linking to Germany is simply less helpful to the reader. Nazi Germany covers the period in which the Holocaust was perpetrated so it is more contextually relevant. Robby.is.on (talk) 14:53, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

What's at stake here is not the linking; that's fine, keep the links to Nazi Germany. The issue here is the language throughout the article, regardless of the links. Is the perpetrator of the Holocaust the nation of Germany or merely the aberrant limited political entity of Nazi Germany?Narc (talk) 15:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

You tell me!? Was Friedrich Ebert a perpetrator, was Gustav Stresemann? Robby.is.on (talk) 15:09, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Not following your logic. Was the bombing of Vietnam perpetrated by its domestic opponents?? Yet it's called "U.S. bombings", not "Democratic US bombings" (but they were ordered by the Democratic regime in the White House!)...Narc (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

It is called "US Bombings" because the United States of America is the country (political entity) that perpetrated the bombings. Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 03:17, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 May 2021

Add Catholic clergy and Jehovah's Witnesses to the list of others persecuted during the Holocaust, as listed at the end of the introduction.

More information on these groups within the context of the Holocaust can be found on these pages, among others: Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Poland; Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany.

Indeed, there are other examples that could be cited in the main body of the text, but I would resolutely argue that it is especially important for these two to be highlighted in order to emphasise to the reader that the Holocaust explicitly included religious groups other than Jews, and it is important that their suffering does not go unnoticed by the casual reader.

Specifically, could the following be changed:

From:

The European Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event during the Holocaust era (1933–1945), in which Germany and its collaborators persecuted and murdered millions of others, including ethnic Poles, Soviet civilians and prisoners of war, the Roma, the disabled, political and religious dissidents, and gay men.

To:

The European Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event during the Holocaust era (1933–1945), in which Germany and its collaborators persecuted and murdered millions of others, including ethnic Poles, Soviet civilians and prisoners of war, the Roma, the disabled, gay men, and political and religious dissidents including Catholic clergy, Jehovah's Witnesses, and communists.

Editorrandom2124 (talk) 17:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Already included a "political and religious dissidents" The requested edit makes the already-unwieldy sentence harder to read for no gain in clarity. As linked in the request itself, there is already substantial documentation of the persecution of these groups on this wiki. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)