Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants

This page has been removed from search engines' indexes.

WikiProject Plants

Main pageTalkTaxon templateBotanist templateResourcesRequestsNew articlesIndex

Angiosperm Tree of Life

There is a family level phylogeny of Angiosperms published this year as part of the Kew Angiosperm Tree of Life Project. There is an comparison with APG IV in the Fig S4 of the journal paper and an interactive treeview at the website. I thought this might be of interest.

References

Guarea caulobotryis/Guarea caulobotrys

Anybody have any insight into which spelling is correct: Guarea caulobotryis vs. Guarea caulobotrys? IPNI has botryis, which looks misspelled to me. GBIF records both spellings, but has flagged record for the IPNI spelling as "deleted" (but it's accessible via taxonbar). Plantdrew (talk) 01:33, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Original publication says Guarea caulobotryis. --awkwafaba (📥) 03:04, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

The Kew resources say Guarea caulobotryis Cuatrec. (links to POWO and IPNI records within), citing the original publication above. The IPNI flags its reference as duplicated (and links the second record) and GBIF has a second record, Guarea caulobotryis Cuatrec., which isn't flagged deleted. The second one is less complete (no links to sources) so they might have deleted the wrong one. —  Jts1882 | talk  06:44, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Stearn is clear that botrys is a noun; see also wikt:βότρυς. When the second part of an epithet, the epithet is a noun in apposition. Cuatrecasus may have been trying to construct an adjective meaning 'bunched' perhaps, but I can't find botryis/βότρυις in any source, although the genitive is βότρῠος, so adding -is after the y to make a feminine adjective is not totally implausible. The question is whether this is an error and hence a correctable ending under the ICNafp Art. 23.5, which is a question that would need to be referred to an expert (e.g. at IPNI). Peter coxhead (talk) 08:12, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

The is a fungus genus Botrytis, which has an etymology at wiktionary, which suggests a third spelling. —  Jts1882 | talk  10:50, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

@Jts1882: not really plausible for the epithet in this case, I think. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:05, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Cuatrecasas clearly chose the odd spelling, either on accident or purpose. We will never know because he couldn’t put an etymology in using any of the three languages of the article. Subsequent authors have struggled like above to puzzle it out and possibly ‘fix’ it. --awkwafaba (📥) 11:57, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, he could have given an etymology. When there isn't one, often the components of the epithet appear in the Latin description, which helps. I assume he meant the epithet to refer to the inflorescentiae .. racemosae cauligenae, but it's then a jump to a derivative of βότρυς. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:05, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that in the absence of a compelling case to the contrary, the original spelling must stand. Article 60 of the Shenzen code is pretty firmly against any 'fixing', except in very strictly defined circumstances. Whilst "unjustified emendation" is only an official term in the zoological code, that is effectively what is being going on here. William Avery (talk) 18:33, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not so clear. If Cuatrecasas's use was an attempt to use a noun, i.e. -botrys, as an adjective, then the provision of Art. 23.5, illustrated there by the example of -cola, would apply, and it would be correctable under Art. 23.5. But this is a matter for experts in the ICNafp, as I noted earlier, and I am definitely not! I've now asked someone who is. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:49, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

@Plantdrew, Awkwafaba, Jts1882, and William Avery: In response to my query, the IPNI entry here has been changed to "caulobotrys" (in line with Tropicos), noting that the original was "caulobotryis". Peter coxhead (talk) 06:42, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok, then I will move the article, expanding the taxonomy section to explain the issues. What's good enough for IPNI and Tropicos is good enough for me! Peter coxhead (talk) 07:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

References

Move discussion

I have tagged Cupressus nootkatensis be renamed and moved to Callitropsis nootkatensis as the most frequently used combination for the species. The use of Callitropsis as a distinct genus has been accepted for at least 5 years now, with the distinct linages of the western cypresses being supported by molecular studies. Comment is welcome.--Kevmin § 14:48, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm unfamiliar with these genera, but I did notice that Callitropsis links to a DAB, in case that is of interest. Eewilson (talk) 15:45, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

At Xanthocyparis it is stated that Xanthocyparis is conserved over Callitropsis, implying that any move should be to Xanthocyparis nootkaensis. Lavateraguy (talk) 10:57, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Lavateraguy As noted at Xanthocyparis, that was proposed, and did happen, but only for the Vietnamese species, the liturature shows that C. nootkatensis is considered a sperate genus from Xanthocyparis vietnamensis, and is now placed in a monotypic Callitropsis. Also, as a note POWO uses Callitropsis --Kevmin § 14:55, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

cultivars

For an article on a particular hybrid, how much documentation is necessary? I noticed many articles such as × Pachyveria glauca 'Little Jewel' with the only meaningful documentation being a dealer's catalog, or × Quesmea 'Flame' with a link that does not lead to any information, or Buddleja davidii 'SMBDPB' = Merry Magic Orchid whose documentation consists of a dealers catalog and a claimed plant patent application (in that example, would it make any diffeence if the patent were actually granted?) ? DGG ( talk ) 04:22, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

@DGG: personally I would delete both of these and all other articles on 'minor' cultivars. It's enough to list and discuss them briefly at the relevant species or genus article. There's a clear difference between a cultivar of limited distribution and appeal versus a widespread and important cultivar, like Rosa Peace or Malus 'Discovery'. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:36, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

DGG, I think a good rule of thumb here is that anything species level or higher is automatically notable, but anything below species level (subspecies, cultivar, hybrid) should meet GNG. There are a lot of pages like that which need to be redirected or deleted (since a lot of them are improbable redirects). I prodded two, the other should be merged into × Pachyveria but can't say I have the energy to do that... CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:38, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, in general merging cultivars is prudent. Species up is our standard tidal mark of notability. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:33, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

• I of course had always thought, that we only comprehensive made articles starting. at the species level, and that those not widely known ,in either horticultural or commercial use usually won't be suitable for an article. But I did not want to start nominating the hundreds of articles involved in, for example, without checking here there might be some special understanding in the subject area. I suggest htat a situation like this might be better handling by multiple bold redirects to a list, that by the necessary number of deletions. DGG ( talk ) 04:30, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

• As a heads up, I've been PROD-tagging a large number of cultivars recently independent of this discussion after finding some of them as orphans and finding that not one had any significant coverage that I could find. It occurred to me today to drop a line here to advise WP Plants people of what I'm up to - please accept my apologies for not thinking of it first. I've been working off the list at User:Premeditated Chaos/sandbox 5 (what's hatted is tagged, what's not is "to-do") at a rate of 15 per day so as not to overwhelm PROD. When I can merge them, I have been, but most are hybrids and not really suitable for a merge. I'm not sure I agree with merging to a list only given that these are non-notable cultivars supported by a database listing, thus a bare list would basically be a WP:NOTSTATS/not-a-database violation. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
• As a question for @DGG, Casliber, CaptainEek, Peter coxhead, and Premeditated Chaos: on this topic, how do we feel about the articles linked in List of elm cultivars, hybrids and hybrid cultivars. Some are well cited, some are very meager. pinging @Izigabo, Tom elm, and Stavast22: as the primary editors in that area.--Kevmin § 00:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Having opened basically a random selection of those using linkclump, I think they need to be individually assessed. Some appear to have sufficient sourcing to meet GNG (on a glance, without reviewing the sources at all), while others are on the level of the Bromeliad cultivars I've been PRODding (nothing more than a database entry). Unfortunately I don't have any real botanical knowledge/expertise, so I'm not sure my opinion counts for much. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:49, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Agree - have to review each one Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:13, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
• My comment above (first in this thread) applies here too. Maybe we could agree, as a WikiProject, that the default for cultivars is not notable. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:41, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• For anyone keeping track, I'm through PROD-tagging the 150+ Tillandsia cultivars and will be starting on Billbergia cultivars tomorrow. As none of the PRODs have been contested so far, I may ramp up to 20 or even 25 per day, because there are a lot of Bromeliaceae cultivar articles. (And although it's the largest ornamental plant sub-cat, it's not the only one!) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:36, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

• As of today, the PRODs have been reverted en masse, so I will likely be creating a bundled AfD for them (by species). ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Baccharis monoica

I kinda need help at Baccharis monoica. I’m kinda new to this situation, someone tagged this article with cleanup taxon.CycoMa (talk) 03:30, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Looks like it may be a synonym of a subspecies of the species in the cleanup box, and if that's the case, it should go as a part of that species page and Baccharis monoica could become a redirect. I find the latest taxa information in POWO or sometimes COL. See http://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:273030-2 which says that this name is a synonym of the Baccharis salicifolia subsp. monoica (G.L.Nesom) Joch.Müll. Eewilson (talk) 03:42, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Misidentification in the Common's Picture of the day?

Hi all,

Oak with broken crown?

Today's Picture of the Day shows an old tree, described as an oak, with a broken crown. It sure looks like a beech, Fagus sylvatica to me, although my knowledge of trees has a North American bias and the picture is from the Netherlands. Can I get a second opinion? Tdslk (talk) 17:58, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Where you can see the shape of the leaves, e.g. against the first branch up at the right, and if you blow up the image and sort through the leaves on the ground, then they are definitely not oak, and look like Common (European) Beech to me. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:22, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

(The texture and colour of the trunks of the younger trees in the background suggest beech too. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:25, 17 October 2021 (UTC))

It looks like Fagus sylvatica to me too - the bark fits, both in colour and smoothness, and the colour of the leaves is right too. The two common oak species in northwest Europe - Quercus robur and Quercus petraea - have rather rough textured bark and dull brown autumn leaf colour. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 18:37, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Also the branching structure of the twigs - which can be seen more clearly when the image is magnified - is smooth like that of F. sylvatica. The two oak species mentioned above have twigs and branches that tend to zig-zag (I had read somewhere that this is due to less apical bud dominance in oaks, though I cannot remember the source). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2021 (UTC) (Or it might be that their apical buds tend to be positioned at more of an angle from the previous year's growth - I'm trying to recall what that source said. Either way, the effect on the twig pattern is an identifying feature). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:02, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Randall James Bayer article

The Randall James Bayer page, of a living botanist, appears to have been written by Randall James Bayer (Rjbayer). It was created on 19 August 2006‎, nominated for deletion on 19 August 2006‎, voted keep on 24 August 2006, and the final edit by the subject of the page was 15 years ago this month. Various cleanup edits have occurred since 2006, but in these 15 years, it still cites no sources (other than the IPNI citation for the botanist abbreviation) and has no tag templates. Furthermore, it is almost an exact copy of https://www.anbg.gov.au/biography/bayer-randall.html. Which came first is hard to tell. (Also posted on Project Biography.) Eewilson (talk) 20:08, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

• His h-index is 47, which means the article will probably be kept at AfD. Abductive (reasoning) 01:57, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
  • That's fine, but it needs to be cited. Since you think it will be kept (as it was previously), I'll go ahead and tag it as needs citations. Eewilson (talk) 06:24, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

New article Albert Maige - nothing from an www.ipni.org search

Hi all,

The usual search - to add {{botanist|Maige}} (or similar) to this article - doesn't yield any result.

The Comité des travaux historiques et scientifiques has his biography here.

Am I missing something here? (Admittedly, the answer is most probably, "Yes, Shirt58, sometimes botanists don't have ipni entries. Please f*ck off and write articles about things you actually know something about")

Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 09:34, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I assume the IPNI only has entries for botanists who have named a plant taxon. His work seems more on the physiology and other non-taxonomic subjects. There is a not more on his at encyclopedia.com. —  Jts1882 | talk  10:22, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I have seen a few botanists/plant people in IPNI who have not named any plants, but I don't know the pattern to that. Eewilson (talk) 06:25, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

As noted by Eewilson IPNI has a number of entries for people who have not named taxa, and I have noted myself that it lacks a number of entries for paleobotanists how have named numerous taxa (example Jack A. Wolfe, Wesley Wehr, Kathleen Pigg, and Melanie DeVore)--Kevmin § 17:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kevmin: IPNI is aware it has poor coverage of paleobotany. I sent them quite a few at one time which were added. See User:Peter coxhead/Work/Early polysporangiophytes#Paleobotanical authors where there are more I didn't get round to. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:50, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Infraspecific name article

Something I noticed and brought up on the talk page of the Infraspecific name article. Please refer to my new comment at Talk:Infraspecific name#Needs work to actually define "infraspecies". I won't repeat it here. Thanks! Eewilson (talk) 06:28, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Pteroceltis tatarinowi (Sp.) Page move request

When moving the current article to the species level, as prep for a fossil record inclusive genus article, I accidentally mis-copied the binomial. This should get moved to Pteroceltis tatarinowii over the redirect there, would someone with page-move ability be able to swap this one over? Thanks!--Kevmin § 17:46, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done Peter coxhead (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks again Peter coxhead--Kevmin § 20:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Project reform

Is there interest in reforming this wikiproject to be more organised, like Milhist and others, or is the understanding that the sheer breadth of the project makes that so difficult as to be pointless. Dracophyllum 07:41, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I have interest if reorganization needs to happen. :) Eewilson (talk) 07:44, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, creating functional subdivisions/task teams devoted to various aspects (like MILHIST has) makes sense to improve the manageability of the project. Just like Botany has subtopics the project could be subdivided into topics such as taxonomy, ecology, food and horticulture/agriculture, and geographic or floristic kingdoms, etc. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

What I propose we do:

• Start a Newsletter (or just restart the tree of life one)
• Have a page with guides for new editors (similar to the academy from Milhist)
• Run competitions and have tasks to foster discussion and editing
• Have coords maybe
• Institute the goals I made in my sandbox

... Dracophyllum 20:55, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Sure - can't hurt to give it a whirl...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dracophyllum Ooh, I like that. The project is fairly active at the moment and I think that could be useful to keep energy sustained. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:09, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Pinging some respected plant editors, @Plantdrew, @Gderrin, @Plantsurfer, and notifying @Eewilson Dracophyllum 00:51, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

It is not lost on me that I was excluded from the group of "respected plant editors." I have a long memory, Dracophyllum. Eewilson (talk) 01:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Haha Eewilson it was because you were already in the conversation I assure you :) Dracophyllum 01:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Okay, if you say so. :) Thoughts I have including fitting in

• our long list of botanists who need articles or need expanded articles
• our supportive articles that we link to all the time
• DYK goals?

I'll think of more, probably. —Eewilson (talk) 02:11, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Sounds great to me if there are people who are prepared to do the extra work. Keeping DYK about botanists and plants on the main page is certainly a worthy goal, as is preparation of a guide for beginners and for students doing university/college assignments on plants. Gderrin (talk) 03:51, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• Most any stub could easily be expanded five-fold and submitted for DYK. They would not be GA or FA, but they would be out there. Eewilson (talk) 08:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Quercus bumelioides

We seem to have articles at Quercus bumelioides and Quercus sapotifolia that are about the same type of tree (they use the same image, and the Commons category for one redirects to the other). Would someone be able to have a look and potentially merge them, please? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:22, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Mike Peel, Plants of the Word Online lists Quercus bumelioides as a synonym of Quercus sapotifolia, so I think it can safely be merged to Q. sapo. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:30, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mike Peel Good find. According to COL, they are synonymous. The issue seems to be that the bumelioides article was made by PolBot, which isn't always the most accurate. Unfortunately, like so many plant species, not very well documented. By leaves alone, it is possible that bumelioides is in fact a distinct species. Oaks of the World (perhaps not the most reliable) gives a short squat leaf[1] but SEINet (more trustworthy) has mostly elongated leafs in its collection [2]. Of course, it could just be due to local variation/temperature/genetics, and might still be the same species. Without access to some of the hard copy works cited, it'd be hard to know. They probably should be merged, with Q. sapotifolia as the title, but I will hold off since I know there are other more able taxonomists here than myself.

Unfortunately, so much plant knowledge is locked away in esoteric tomes. I have several works on grasses of the southwest that I doubt were ever published in more than a hundred copies, and mostly never digitized. (Been meaning to make more articles...) Plants just don't get the kind of attention the more charismatic species do :/ CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:47, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos and CaptainEek: Thanks for the quick replies! Any chance one of you would be willing to do the merge, please? I really don't know much about plants, sorry! Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:50, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mike Peel Done :) CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:56, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks! Mike Peel (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Note to all, DO NOT copy the IUCN status when merging PolBot articles. If a PolBot article is a synonym, typically that means that it represents an entity that is a regional variant of a more widespread species. If the widespread species has been assessed by IUCN, it will almost certainly have a lower threat level than the regional variant. Q. sapotifolia has been assessed by IUCN, and I've updated the reference to the IUCN page for Q. sapotifolia. Plantdrew (talk) 20:48, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Plantdrew That is good to know! CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:07, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

DYK, GA, FA, TFA submissions

• DYK nomination for Symphyotrichum potosinum passed!
• GA nomination for Symphyotrichum novae-angliae (talk page) waiting for reviewer

—Eewilson (talk) 02:21, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Okay....in the spirit of collegiality, I've been buffing Gardenia jasminoides in bits and starts over the years, summoning up energy for a GA/FA push. Any input from others to grease the edits in the right direction would be appreciated (either comments or edits)......Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I can give it a little look later, Casliber Eewilson (talk) 08:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Casliber, I took a look, made some tweaks, gave some comments. Eewilson (talk) 12:03, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Much appreciated! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:42, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• DYK nomination for Symphyotrichum molle here
• TFA request for Symphyotrichum lateriflorum here

—Eewilson (talk) 16:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

This is done by a bot on the main page under the Monitoring section. Dracophyllum 18:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Dracophyllum Stop trying to spoil my fun...you ol' meanie. Eewilson (talk) 18:27, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Oops, forgot about WP:AVOIDYOU. Eewilson (talk) 18:54, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Be sure to add your TFA nomination to the TFA requests page, since you're looking for December. Wehwalt has already scheduled the first 8 days of December. Longer-term requests should go to WP:TFAP (for "pending"). - Dank (push to talk) 19:53, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Cultivars 2: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tillandsia 'Feather Duster'

Starting a new thread so it doesn't get swallowed by the old one. I have bundled ten Tillandsia stubs into the above-noted AfD nomination as a sort of test case rather than starting out by trainwrecking the remaining hundred or so. (No particular ten, I just picked the first ten alphabetically). I invite anyone from this project who is interested to comment. In particular, if anyone here has not seen my previous posts about PROD-tagging cultivars and would have opposed had they seen them earlier, or did object but didn't wish to say so, now is the time. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:57, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Phase 2 is now up at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tillandsia 'Gunalda', with 50 bundled this time. Again, I invite anyone who is interested to comment, particularly anyone in opposition, or anyone who has located sources for any of the nominated articles. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:12, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Loxostylis

Hello, I was working on a draft for this species called Draft:Loxostylis alata.(It is currently not done so the draft is kinda messy and needs fixing.)

However, when I looked at the genus for this species at Loxostylis. It appears Loxostylis alata is the only species in its genus and that the genus is monotypic. What do you guys think, do you guys think I should just move all the stuff I made on my draft and move it to Loxostylis or what? Any idea is helpful.CycoMa (talk) 14:46, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• @CycoMa: yea, we only do one article for monotypic taxa. Note that if a clade has only one extant species, and other extinct species, that’s not monotypic. If you want to do it quick and dirty you can just dump all the stuff from your draft into a § called Loxostylis alata. --awkwafaba (📥) 15:52, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Commons category discrepancies

Hi all. Related to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Plants#Quercus_bumelioides above, I'm working through link mismatches between enwiki articles and Commons categories (via Wikidata), and I'm finding a lot of them are related to plants. I'm often not sure if it's the Wikipedia article or the Commons category that needs moving/renaming to resolve the discrepancy (Wikidata often has taxon synonym items, and I've been going off the article/category name to determine the matches). Any chance you can help with these please? (pinging @Premeditated Chaos, CaptainEek, and Plantdrew: as they commented above). I'm happy to help with the technical work, but I don't know the topic. I've listed some below (will continue expanding this as I come across them). You can find the problematic articles in Category:Commons category link is the pagename, Category:Commons category link is defined as the pagename, and Category:Commons category link is locally defined. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:07, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

• Aporocactus flagelliformis - commons:Category:Aporocactus flagelliformis is a redirect to commons:Category:Disocactus flagelliformis
• Aporocactus martianus - commons:Category:Aporocactus martianus is a redirect to commons:Category:Disocactus martianus
• Echinopsis atacamensis - commons:Category:Echinopsis atacamensis redirects to commons:Category:Leucostele atacamensis
• Echinopsis pampana - commons:Category:Echinopsis pampana redirects to commons:Category:Lobivia pentlandii (after an intermediate category)
• Hebe recurva - is that commons:Category:Veronica odora or commons:Category:Veronica albicans?

A redirect which should be a redlink

See here, Melocactus intortus. Cheers, 2A02:A45D:25BD:1:3011:C945:188C:5563 (talk) 11:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)