Jump to content

Talk:Jesus: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 214: Line 214:
* [http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html Response - Reference Center - FAQ - Proof Texts - Trinity] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070609103604/http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html |date=2007-06-09 }} (Jews for Judaism)* [http://www.outreachjudaism.org/trinity.html The Trinity in the Shema?] by Rabbi Singer (outreachjudaism.org)
* [http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html Response - Reference Center - FAQ - Proof Texts - Trinity] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070609103604/http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html |date=2007-06-09 }} (Jews for Judaism)* [http://www.outreachjudaism.org/trinity.html The Trinity in the Shema?] by Rabbi Singer (outreachjudaism.org)
* [http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm The Doctrine of the Trinity] (religionfacts.com)</ref> According to Judaism, the [[Torah]] rules out a trinitarian God in [[Deuteronomy]] (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Judaism also teaches that it is heretical for any man (or woman; any person) to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son (or daughter) of God. The [[Jerusalem Talmud]] states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."<ref>[[Ta'anit (Talmud)|Ta'anit]] 2:1</ref> Thank you DeCausa.[[Special:Contributions/108.30.240.77|108.30.240.77]] ([[User talk:108.30.240.77|talk]]) 10:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
* [http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm The Doctrine of the Trinity] (religionfacts.com)</ref> According to Judaism, the [[Torah]] rules out a trinitarian God in [[Deuteronomy]] (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Judaism also teaches that it is heretical for any man (or woman; any person) to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son (or daughter) of God. The [[Jerusalem Talmud]] states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."<ref>[[Ta'anit (Talmud)|Ta'anit]] 2:1</ref> Thank you DeCausa.[[Special:Contributions/108.30.240.77|108.30.240.77]] ([[User talk:108.30.240.77|talk]]) 10:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
::DeCausa, thanks for your response. Part of it (the idolatry part) is actually in the Islamic views section in this article, but I do not see anywhere in this entire Jesus article, including the Judaism's perspective section, where it clearly states these basic, simple, abridged, important points: Judaism considers the worship of any person (including Jesus, Mary or any past or future Messiah's or King's) a form of [[idolatry]],<ref name="KaplanA">{{cite book|last=Kaplan|first=Aryeh|title=The real Messiah? a Jewish response to missionaries|year=1985|publisher=National Conference of Synagogue Youth|location=New York|isbn=978-1879016118|edition=New}} [http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/the_real_messiah.pdf The real Messiah (pdf)]</ref><ref name="SingerT">{{cite book|last=Singer|first=Tovia|title=Let's Get Biblical|year=2010|publisher=RNBN Publishers; 2nd edition (2010)|isbn=978-0615348391}}</ref> and also forbids the worship of a person as a form of [[idolatry]], since the central belief of Judaism is [[Jewish principles of faith#God is One|the absolute unity and singularity of God]].<ref>[http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9970 Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4]</ref>{{refn|group=note|name=incompat|A belief in the divinity of Jesus is incompatible with Judaism:
::* "The point is this: that the whole Christology of the Church - the whole complex of doctrines about the Son of God who died on the Cross to save humanity from sin and death - is incompatible with Judaism, and indeed in discontinuity with the Hebraism that preceded it." Rayner, John D. ''A Jewish Understanding of the World'', Berghahn Books, 1998, p. 187. {{ISBN|1-57181-974-6}}
::* "Aside from its belief in Jesus as the Messiah, Christianity has altered many of the most fundamental concepts of Judaism." [[Aryeh Kaplan|Kaplan, Aryeh]]. ''The Aryeh Kaplan Anthology: Volume 1, Illuminating Expositions on Jewish Thought and Practice'', Mesorah Publication, 1991, p. 264. {{ISBN|0-89906-866-9}}
::* "...the doctrine of Christ was and will remain alien to Jewish religious thought." Wylen, Stephen M. ''Settings of Silver: An Introduction to Judaism'', Paulist Press, 2000, p. 75. {{ISBN|0-8091-3960-X}}
::* "For a Jew, however, any form of [[shituf]] is tantamount to idolatry in the fullest sense of the word. There is then no way that a Jew can ever accept Jesus as a deity, mediator or savior (messiah), or even as a prophet, without betraying Judaism." {{cite news|first1=Rabbi J. Emmanuel |last1=Schochet |title=Judaism has no place for those who betray their roots |url=http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/99/july29-99/feature/feature2.htm |newspaper=The Canadian Jewish News |date=29 July 1999 |access-date=11 March 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20010320161936/http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/99/july29-99/feature/feature2.htm |archive-date=20 March 2001 |url-status=dead }}
::[http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/Missionaries/missionariesAndCults.html Judaism and Jesus Don't Mix] (foundationstone.com)
::* "If you believe Jesus is the messiah, died for anyone else's sins, is God's chosen son, or any other dogma of Christian belief, you are not Jewish. You are Christian. Period." (''[http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/virtualtalmud/2006/08/jews-for-jesus-whos-who-whats-what.html Jews for Jesus: Who's Who & What's What] {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20061123100943/http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/virtualtalmud/2006/08/jews-for-jesus-whos-who-whats-what.html |date=2006-11-23 }}'' by Rabbi Susan Grossman (beliefnet - virtualtalmud) August 28, 2006)
::* "For two thousand years, Jews rejected the claim that Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies of the Hebrew Bible, as well as the dogmatic claims about him made by the church fathers - that he was born of a virgin, the son of God, part of a divine Trinity, and was resurrected after his death. ... For two thousand years, a central wish of Christianity was to be the object of desire by Jews, whose conversion would demonstrate their acceptance that Jesus has fulfilled their own biblical prophecies." (''Jewish Views of Jesus'' by Susannah Heschel, in ''Jesus In The World's Faiths: Leading Thinkers From Five Faiths Reflect On His Meaning'' by Gregory A. Barker, editor. (Orbis Books, 2005) {{ISBN|1-57075-573-6}}. p.149)
::* "No Jew accepts Jesus as the Messiah. When someone makes that faith commitment, they become Christian. It is not possible for someone to be both Christian and Jewish." ([http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_c/bl_jesus.htm Why don't Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah?] by Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner)}} Monotheism, a belief in the [[Jewish principles of faith#Monotheism|absolute unity and singularity of God]], is central to Judaism,<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9970|title=Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4}}</ref> which is why it regards the worship of a person as a form of [[idolatry]].<ref name=incompat>{{cite news|first1=Rabbi J. Emmanuel |last1=Schochet |title=Judaism has no place for those who betray their roots |url=http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/99/july29-99/feature/feature2.htm |publisher=The Canadian Jewish News |date=29 July 1999 |access-date=11 March 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20010320161936/http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/99/july29-99/feature/feature2.htm |archive-date=20 March 2001 |url-status=dead }}</ref> In Judaism, the idea of God as a [[Dualistic cosmology#Duotheism, bitheism, ditheism|duality]] or trinity is [[heretical]] — it is even considered by some [[polytheistic]].<ref>The concept of Trinity is incompatible with Judaism:
::* [http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html Response - Reference Center - FAQ - Proof Texts - Trinity] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070609103604/http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html |date=2007-06-09 }} (Jews for Judaism)* [http://www.outreachjudaism.org/trinity.html The Trinity in the Shema?] by Rabbi Singer (outreachjudaism.org)
::* [http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm The Doctrine of the Trinity] (religionfacts.com)</ref> According to Judaism, the [[Torah]] rules out a trinitarian God in [[Deuteronomy]] (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Judaism also teaches that it is heretical for any man (or woman; any person) to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son (or daughter) of God. The [[Jerusalem Talmud]] states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."<ref>[[Ta'anit (Talmud)|Ta'anit]] 2:1</ref> I'd think that even an abridged version of this - because it is so pertinent/important and so basic/simple - should be added to the article. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/108.30.240.77|108.30.240.77]] ([[User talk:108.30.240.77|talk]]) 08:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
::[[Special:Contributions/108.30.240.77|108.30.240.77]] ([[User talk:108.30.240.77|talk]]) 08:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:35, 28 September 2022

Featured articleJesus is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 25, 2013.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 17, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
June 2, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 3, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
November 2, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 3, 2005Articles for deletionKept
October 6, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
December 15, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
April 14, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
November 27, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
April 21, 2007Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 21, 2007WikiProject A-class reviewApproved
July 12, 2009Good article reassessmentDelisted
May 5, 2013Good article nomineeListed
May 28, 2013Guild of Copy EditorsCopyedited
August 15, 2013Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

Template:Vital article

Added at the bottom

Jesus is a religious, cultural, worldwide icon, and is among the most influential people in human history. (Reference here) - User:Sleetimetraveller — Preceding undated comment added 12:53, 21 July 2021

Edits for review by sock puppet

As per WP:SOCKSTRIKE edits by User:Neplota should be reviewed...

Edits by Neplota to this page. Moxy- 21
30, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the notification. I reviewed all edits not already tagged "Reverted". Of those, only three are in the current copy, not counting a single typographical fix and link addition. I do not believe any special action is needed on these:
  • 12:28 21 March 2021. Deletion of the statement "Christians too believe that He was raised into Heaven 40 days after his Resurrection". This was added 13 days earlier to the Islam section. Probably unnecessary and the reverted author declined to discuss on Talk.
  • 14:23 16 June 2022. Change from "Maryam" to "Mary" in the Islam section. The linked article is "Mary in Islam", so "Mary" probably is preferred.
  • 09:52 03 July 2022. Moved mention of reverence of Jesus in other religions from end of 1st paragraph to beginning of 4th. Discussed recently in Talk above, and no consensus on whether to retain or change appears to have been reached yet.
Jtrevor99 (talk) 02:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Suggestion re: Nontrinitarian Christians

Council of Nicea Tedw2 (talk) 22:55, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Trinitarian Christians generally believe that Jesus is the Logos, God's incarnation and God the Son, both fully divine and fully human. However, the doctrine of the Trinity is not universally accepted among Christians. With the Reformation, Christians such as Michael Servetus and the Socinians started questioning the ancient creeds that had established Jesus' two natures. Nontrinitarian Christian groups include The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses.-----
I do not think this is an accurate statement of the facts. It implies it was only at the time of reformation that the Doctrine of the Trinity was questioned. It should be added that the Doctrine of the Trinity was not official doctrine of the early Church until 325 and the Council of Nicea. Arians questioned it long before the Reformation. Wikipedia should be accurate on the matter Tedw2 (talk) 23:01, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I actually think this is a very good idea. I never noticed it, but I think you're right about the natural reading of the sentence. Do others agree? Dumuzid (talk) 23:04, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree too. The nature of Jesus was hotly disputed in the first centuries of the Christian churches. It only solidified in 300-400, the Reformation era questioning are not new, but a rekindling of long dispute. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 19:23, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And today, most evangelical orgs tend to just discard it entirely.--SinoDevonian (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pronouns

Since there is no record of Jesus expressing preferred pronouns, some sort of neutral term should be found. 76.65.24.235 (talk) 13:54, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Male pronouns are used in all recorded sources, therefore male pronouns are neutral. Happy (Slap me) 14:03, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, according to the biblical record, he often referred to himself in the third person (as the Son of Man) and preferred masculine pronouns. StAnselm (talk) 15:01, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, we need to be careful not to project modern cultural inventions onto historical cultures. Jtrevor99 (talk) 15:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, in Hebrew, היא, pronounced "he" is in fact "she," so I say we throw our hands up and keep the article as is. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Geezus" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Geezus and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 17#Geezus until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TNstingray (talk) 22:58, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Jesus as Jew" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Jesus as Jew and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 21#Jesus as Jew until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TartarTorte 15:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the Jewish Perspective section of this article on Jesus

In the Jewish Perspective section of this article on Jesus, the most vital and important points regarding Judaism's perspective of Jesus should be added in this article, and they are: Judaism considers the worship of any person a form of idolatry,[1][2] and rejects the claims that Jesus was divine, an intermediary to God, or part of a Trinity.[3][1][4][5]. Judaism forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[6][note 1] Monotheism, a belief in the absolute unity and singularity of God, is central to Judaism,[7] which regards the worship of a person as a form of idolatry.[8] The belief that Jesus is God, the Son of God, or a person of the Trinity, is incompatible with Jewish theology. Therefore, consideration of Jesus as deity is not an issue in traditional Jewish thought. Judaism does not accept Jesus as a divine being, an intermediary between humans and God, a messiah, or holy. Belief in the Trinity is also held to be incompatible with Judaism, as are a number of other tenets of Christianity. In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[9] According to Judaism, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one."

Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son of God. The Jerusalem Talmud states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."[10] Thank you to all fellow Wikipedians108.30.240.77 (talk) 07:45, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Kaplan, Aryeh (1985). The real Messiah? a Jewish response to missionaries (New ed.). New York: National Conference of Synagogue Youth. ISBN 978-1879016118. The real Messiah (pdf)
  2. ^ Singer, Tovia (2010). Let's Get Biblical. RNBN Publishers; 2nd edition (2010). ISBN 978-0615348391.
  3. ^ "G-d has no body, no genitalia; therefore, the very idea that G-d is male or female is patently absurd. We refer to G-d using masculine terms simply for convenience's sake, because Hebrew has no neutral gender; G-d is no more male than a table is." Judaism 101. "The fact that we always refer to God as 'He' is also not meant to imply that the concept of sex or gender applies to God." Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, The Aryeh Kaplan Reader, Mesorah Publications (1983), p. 144
  4. ^ Singer, Tovia (28 April 2014). "Monotheism". Retrieved February 2, 2020.
  5. ^ Norman, Asher (2007). Twenty-six reasons why Jews don't believe in Jesus. Feldheim Publishers. pp. 59–70. ISBN 978-0-9771937-0-7.
  6. ^ Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4
  7. ^ "Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4".
  8. ^ Schochet, Rabbi J. Emmanuel (29 July 1999). "Judaism has no place for those who betray their roots". The Canadian Jewish News. Archived from the original on 20 March 2001. Retrieved 11 March 2015.
  9. ^ The concept of Trinity is incompatible with Judaism:
  10. ^ Ta'anit 2:1
You are conflating between the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith. Jesus himself did not believe much of the stuff Christians believe about him. As the saying goes, the religion of Jesus is Judaism, Christianity is a religion about Jesus.
We don't know very much about who this Jesus was, or what he thought, but by all chances he was very much unlike traditional Christian theology depicts him. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:02, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
IP, as far as I can tell the section more or less says what you say, albeit in an abridged form. That's appropriate per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE because we have a whole article on it. DeCausa (talk) 09:53, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
DeCausa, thanks for your response. Part of it (the idolatry) is in the Islamic views section in this article, but I do not see anywhere in this Jesus article where it clearly states these basic, simple, abridged, important points: Judaism considers the worship of any person (including Jesus, Mary or any past or future Messiah's or King's) a form of idolatry,[1][2] and also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[3][note 1] Monotheism, a belief in the absolute unity and singularity of God, is central to Judaism,[4] which is why it regards the worship of a person as a form of idolatry.[5] In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[6] According to Judaism, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Judaism also teaches that it is heretical for any man (or woman; any person) to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son (or daughter) of God. The Jerusalem Talmud states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."[7] Thank you DeCausa.108.30.240.77 (talk) 10:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
DeCausa, thanks for your response. Part of it (the idolatry part) is actually in the Islamic views section in this article, but I do not see anywhere in this entire Jesus article, including the Judaism's perspective section, where it clearly states these basic, simple, abridged, important points: Judaism considers the worship of any person (including Jesus, Mary or any past or future Messiah's or King's) a form of idolatry,[1][2] and also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[8][note 1] Monotheism, a belief in the absolute unity and singularity of God, is central to Judaism,[9] which is why it regards the worship of a person as a form of idolatry.[5] In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[10] According to Judaism, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Judaism also teaches that it is heretical for any man (or woman; any person) to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son (or daughter) of God. The Jerusalem Talmud states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."[11] I'd think that even an abridged version of this - because it is so pertinent/important and so basic/simple - should be added to the article. Thank you. 108.30.240.77 (talk) 08:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
108.30.240.77 (talk) 08:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Cite error: There are <ref group=note> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}} template (see the help page).

  1. ^ a b Kaplan, Aryeh (1985). The real Messiah? a Jewish response to missionaries (New ed.). New York: National Conference of Synagogue Youth. ISBN 978-1879016118. The real Messiah (pdf)
  2. ^ a b Singer, Tovia (2010). Let's Get Biblical. RNBN Publishers; 2nd edition (2010). ISBN 978-0615348391.
  3. ^ Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4
  4. ^ "Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4".
  5. ^ a b Schochet, Rabbi J. Emmanuel (29 July 1999). "Judaism has no place for those who betray their roots". The Canadian Jewish News. Archived from the original on 20 March 2001. Retrieved 11 March 2015.
  6. ^ The concept of Trinity is incompatible with Judaism:
  7. ^ Ta'anit 2:1
  8. ^ Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4
  9. ^ "Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4".
  10. ^ The concept of Trinity is incompatible with Judaism:
  11. ^ Ta'anit 2:1
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus&oldid=1112821723"