Talk:Kanjuruhan Stadium disaster

Title

@WaddlesJP13: Shouldn't the title include "disaster" instead of "stampede" in order to harmonize it with articles of similar case? Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 00:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Jeromi Mikhael: That may have to be decided between you and page creator SunDawn (and possibly other people, but it may be easier to make the page move now rather than later). I'm not really too familiar with this event and only merged the two articles since both appeared in the Page Curation backlog whilst I was page reviewing. Waddles 🗩 🖉 00:58, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Jeromi Mikhael: After looking at Template:Human crushes, it looks like many other similar articles use "stampede" rather than "disaster". Waddles 🗩 🖉 01:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

update death to 220 pepole injured and cause this poilce attack gas 101.128.126.87 (talk) 02:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 October 2022

2022 Kanjuruhan Stadium disaster → 2022 Kanjuruhan Stadium stampede – Apologies if its too early for this, but many similar articles have been titled with "stampede" as opposed to "disaster". This would also be a more accurate title, specifying the nature of the disaster as a stampede. See 1 and 2 for a few examples. Precise and recognizable in accordance with WP:CRITERIA. — That Coptic Guy (talk) 04:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Reading a bit more into this event it seems like stampede worked just fine. Disaster is ambiguous. Waddles 🗩 🖉 05:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Yogwi21 (talk) 05:20, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. This is a potential mass murder, which most people in the world are not yet even aware of, there is no need to be hurrying to come to conclusions about its nature. Disaster is neutral and accurate and doesn't employ dehumanizing animalistic language. See Hillsborough disaster. Absolutely not. No. Vile, especially considering that Wikipedia WILL be used as sources in news articles (more often than the other way round) Sumbuddi (talk) 05:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Strongly oppose. These other major football-related incidents, which are among the five worst football-related incidents alongside Kanjuruhan, can be used as examples: Estadio Nacional disaster, Accra Sports Stadium disaster, Hillsborough disaster, 1988 Dasharath Stadium disaster. All of those included stampedes in some way. The first two (Estadio Nacional, Accra) even had losing team supporters invading the field and police employing tear gases as important elements of the incidents, with the almost-exact fashion to that of Kanjuruhan. If we use "stampede" instead of "disaster", I'm afraid that we're not following the consistency between similar articles in Wikipedia. Dhio (talk?) 05:29, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Indonesian media overwhelmingly describe to this as "tragedy". "Tear gas" is the most discussed keyword rather than "stampede", because some also die by asphyxiation. I personally don't know in English whether disaster or tragedy the correct word for this event. Hddty (talk) 05:39, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Foreign-based and english-speaking media looks different. Most of them use "stampede", like BBC, The Japan Times, etc. 125.167.57.167 (talk) 05:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose, disaster is the consensus term, as can be seen at Category:Stadium disasters. Abductive (reasoning) 06:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Strong oppose, per Sumbuddi and Hddty Nyanardsan (talk) 06:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support - Looking into it, stampede would fit this incident and would be more in line with how the other Wikipedia Articles are named. For examples Al Jazeera, BBC, The Guardian, Reuters, and Laotian Times, among many others, all refer to as a "stampede" and this should be its proper name.

Smuckers ^{It has to be good} 06:06, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources using “stampede” is a compelling argument, but I’d note that other Wikipedia articles about similar crowd crushes at soccer games tend to use “disaster”. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 06:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I refered you to reply by Hddty above. Also, the nature of this tragedy is still being discussed, was it a riot, stampede, or anything else. Nyanardsan (talk) 06:18, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Comment We should probably follow what reliable sources are saying, but it seems like the most accurate way to describe this is to call it a crowd crush. I’d note that other Wikipedia articles about similar crowd crushes at soccer games tend to call them disasters, so calling it a disaster fits better with WP:TITLECON. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 06:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  To add, the very page of Stampede in wiki has a line saying "Some media sources refer to situations in which people were injured or have died due to compression in very dense crowds "stampede" is a misnomer". Given the police chief describe the incident as “They went out to one point at the exit, then there was a buildup – in the process of accumulation there was shortness of breath, lack of oxygen”, this is more typical of a crowd crush (people injured because unable to move and breathe) than Stampede (people injured because of other people moving like being stepped on). 183.178.87.163 (talk) 10:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Oppose at least as for now while waiting the official result of the cause, was it really due to overcapacity, hooligans or the mistakes committed by the polices by firing tear gas to the audience seats, thus 'Disaster' is the most neutral and inclusive terms for all of the possible causes - at this moment. Chongkian (talk) 07:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Aljazeera event also included injuries/death by teargas and vehicle burning. Disaster seems to be accurate. Squeezdakat (talk) 07:59, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Too narrow. It is unknown whether it was only a stampede; other death causes may be present. -DePiep (talk) 10:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Seem too soon to rely only on WP:RSBREAKING sources that headline "stampede". Be conservative. For example, the BBC now has the headline "Indonesia: At least 174 dead in football stadium crush". The police chief said that[1]

  ...as a result of the tear gas being fired, fans rushed to one exit and “then there was a build-up”. “That process caused shortness of breath [and] lack of oxygen and medical teams tried to do rescue efforts in the stadium,” he said.

  Another source refered to the crush:[2]

  Afinta said many people were crushed and suffocated when they ran to one exit.

  No prejudice to revisiting this after authorities investigate further.—Bagumba (talk) 10:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  AP News seems to have changed their title and body text (though the link still the same) to remove "stampede" from "129 dead after fans stampede to exit Indonesian soccer match" (archive link at 1:56 AM UTC or 10 hours ago) to "174 die as tear gas triggers crush at Indonesia soccer match" (current link). Hddty (talk) 12:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Was this a crowd crush, a stampede, or both? Whichever is the case, the title shouldn't have the year in it. It only happened once. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:37, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  We've been through this before. Only very well known historical events are listed without a year.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  This is important enough to not have the year in the title. It's receiving substantial international media coverage & has an unusually high death toll. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:21, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  There is no good reason to not include the year. A majority of events articles deserve the year per WP:NCEVENTS. To remove the year would not be WP:CONSISTENT with the majority of article titles of events. Pilaz (talk) 21:40, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. "Stampede" is an extremely loaded term usually reserved for cattle, which implies that victims were to blame for their own deaths. Neutrality demands a descriptive title like the one we currently have.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:47, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose It appears that most people were crushed to death in an enclosed area, which "stampede" does not suggest. Black Kite (talk) 10:49, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose and suggested move to "Kanjuruhan Stadium disaster" (without year) or something similar, due to fact that this is the only notable incident happened at the stadium. Also, this incident are likely not just stampede. 125.167.57.167 (talk) 12:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  Per WP:NCE, "In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When the incident happened. Where the incident happened. What happened." This does not fall into the exception to that convention mentioned, which is "in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it". Although it's in the news now, it's not going to be long-regarded as a historic and well-known incident, so the year is necessary to help readers identify the event in question.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• I think you should change it because there are many related articles named like "2015 Mina stampede" and not "2015 Mina disaster" Quake1234 (talk) 13:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment I'm fine with it being labelled as either disaster or stampede, but it's better that this article be renamed without the year since this event is very notable for being unusual and for having an exceptionally high death toll, just like the Hillsborough disaster. RPC7778 (talk) 13:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose: Human crush or crowd collapse would be the most accurate, though they aren't seeing common use. Given the choice between stampede and disaster, disaster is less of a victim-blaming term. If European crowd collapses like Hillsborough are disasters, Asian crowd collapses like Kanjuruhan are likewise disasters.Zhanmusi (talk) 18:42, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment - while this would be called a "stampede" in the usage I am familiar with, there is a movement to separate various types of crowd events into stampedes, crowd crushes, and crowd collapses. In any event, we should not be using the hopelessly uninformative word "disaster" here or in any other article title. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• "Disasters don't just happen. They're triggered by a chain of critical events. Unravel the clues and count down those final Seconds from Disaster. Abductive (reasoning) 19:21, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: The above comment by Dhio gives convincing evidence of the use of "disaster" as applicable to similar events of this magnitude. Consistency is preferable, but as this Talk discussion shows, the causes of death are multiple and parallel events often were less than clearcut. Calling it a "disaster" is generic and closer to NPOV -- "stampede" has a connotation of blaming the victims, which is particularly offensive in this case because trigger-happy police used tear gas, a technique NOT considered standard here in Indonesia, which is why the top brass in Malang were rebuked and might be forced to retire. Martindo (talk) 22:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

FIFA Regulation Misunderstanding

The scope of the regulation (from page 12):

3. If an association or confederation arranges an event that will be administrated and governed by its own competition regulations, the respective association’s or confederation’s own safety and security regulations shall apply and these regulations may only serve as guidelines.

In short, FIFA does not mandate the regulation to be followed at national competition. This is only mandatory for FIFA events. 2001:448A:50E2:F771:EDE7:CC63:3516:FCE1 (talk) 08:16, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer but the regulation itself is widely mentioned by the national media about the event, so even if that supposed to mean that way, we should keep it in the article. Nyanardsan (talk) 08:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I didn't intend to have it removed, only to add additional information so it is not misunderstood by general public anymore. I actually add the information before the editting is locked but then I realize the reference I put had wrong page (should have been 12 instead of 32) but I cannot revised it as the page got locked — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:448A:50E2:F771:EDE7:CC63:3516:FCE1 (talk) 08:59, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Aftermath and Reaction

Should we create reaction section? Aftermath will show how the condition of people and venue, meanwhile the reaction section will cover reaction of federation, police, and world. BurningHill (talk) 08:38, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Usually there will be the reaction section, especially on those official press statement release, starting from Indonesia (president, ministry of sports, head of football association, head of the police force) and the world (probably limited to FIFA only). Chongkian (talk) 02:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2022

Add to the end of the first paragraph: after the Estadio_Nacional_disaster of May 24, 1964. 71.231.156.74 (talk) 11:01, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Already in the Aftermath section. WWGB (talk) 11:29, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Kanjuruhan 1 October 22.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Funeral Procession for One of the Victims of the Kanjuruhan Stadium Stampede in Nglegok, Blitar, East Java.jpg

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Edit request

In the first paragraph a sentence starts with “125”. Per the MoS, this should be “One hundred twenty-five” as sentence should not start with a numerical number, the number should instead be spelled out.