Talk:Race and intelligence: Difference between revisions
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::::::::The objections you raised have been discussed at length before, and other editors don't want to relitigate it. For more information about that, please see the FAQ at the top of this page. Concerning your "tons of surveys" and your example of supposedly one of the best of them, it's a survey from 35 years ago. [[User:NightHeron|NightHeron]] ([[User talk:NightHeron|talk]]) 16:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC) |
::::::::The objections you raised have been discussed at length before, and other editors don't want to relitigate it. For more information about that, please see the FAQ at the top of this page. Concerning your "tons of surveys" and your example of supposedly one of the best of them, it's a survey from 35 years ago. [[User:NightHeron|NightHeron]] ([[User talk:NightHeron|talk]]) 16:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Let's make it short: This page got into the hands of leftist wackos and it's a parody of science. As such, this page does not fulfill Wikipedia's mission as the source of objective scientific information. It should not be so difficult to refute all the ridiculous claims presented here. The only problem is enough time. [[User:Centrum99|Centrum99]] ([[User talk:Centrum99|talk]]) 19:15, 11 October 2022 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 19:15, 11 October 2022
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Is there really a scientific consensus that there is no evidence for a genetic link between race and intelligence?
Yes, and for a number of reasons. Primarily:
Isn't it true that different races have different average IQ test scores?
On average and in certain contexts, yes, though these differences have fluctuated and in many cases steadily decreased over time. Crucially, the existence of such average differences today does not mean what racialists have asserted that it means (i.e. that races can be ranked according to their genetic predisposition for intelligence). Most IQ test data comes from North America and Europe, where non-White individuals represent ethnic minorities and often carry systemic burdens which are known to affect test performance. Studies which purport to compare the IQ averages of various nations are considered methodologically dubious and extremely unreliable. Further, important discoveries in the past several decades, such as the Flynn effect and the steady narrowing of the gap between low-scoring and high-scoring groups, as well as the ways in which disparities such as access to prenatal care and early childhood education affect IQ, have led to an understanding that environmental factors are sufficient to account for observed between-group differences. And isn't IQ a measure of intelligence?
Not exactly. IQ tests are designed to measure intelligence, but it is widely acknowledged that they measure only a very limited range of an individual's cognitive capacity. They do not measure mental adaptability or creativity, for example. You can read more about the limitations of IQ measurements here. These caveats need to be kept in mind when extrapolating from IQ measurements to statements about intelligence. But even if we were to take IQ to be a measure of intelligence, there would still be no good reason to assert a genetic link between race and intelligence (for all the reasons stated elsewhere in this FAQ). Isn't there research showing that there are genetic differences between races?
Yes and no. A geneticist could analyze a DNA sample and then in many cases make an accurate statement about that person's race, but no single gene or group of genes has ever been found that defines a person's race. Such variations make up a minute fraction of the total genome, less even than the amount of genetic material that varies from one individual to the next. It's also important to keep in mind that racial classifications are socially constructed, in the sense that how a person is classified racially depends on perceptions, racial definitions, and customs in their society and can often change when they travel to a different country or when social conventions change over time (see here for more details). So how can different races look different, without having different genes?
They do have some different genes, but the genes that vary between any two given races will not necessarily vary between two other races. Race is defined phenotypically, not genotypically, which means it's defined by observable traits. When a geneticist looks at the genetic differences between two races, there are differences in the genes that regulate those traits, and that's it. So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same. In fact, there is much less genetic material that regulates the traits used to define the races than there is that regulates traits that vary from person to person. In other words, if you compare the genomes of two individuals within the same race, the results will likely differ more from each other than a comparison of the average genomes of two races. If you've ever heard people saying that the races "are more alike than two random people" or words to that effect, this is what they were referring to. Why do people insist that race is "biologically meaningless"?
Mostly because it is. As explained in the answer to the previous question, race isn't defined by genetics. Race is nothing but an arbitrary list of traits, because race is defined by observable features. The list isn't even consistent from one comparison to another. We distinguish between African and European people on the basis of skin color, but what about Middle Eastern, Asian, and Native American people? They all have more or less the same skin color. We distinguish African and Asian people from European people by the shape of some of their facial features, but what about Native American and Middle Eastern people? They have the same features as the European people, or close enough to engender confusion when skin color is not discernible. Australian Aborigines share numerous traits with African people and are frequently considered "Black" along with them, yet they are descended from an ancestral Asian population and have been a distinct cultural and ethnic group for fifty thousand years. These standards of division are arbitrary and capricious; the one drop rule shows that visible differences were not even respected at the time they were still in use. But IQ is at least somewhat heritable. Doesn't that mean that observed differences in IQ test performance between ancestral population groups must have a genetic component?
This is a common misconception, sometimes termed the "hereditarian fallacy". [1] In fact, the heritability of differences between individuals and families within a given population group tells us nothing about the heritability of differences between population groups. [2] [3] As geneticist and neuroscientist Kevin Mitchell explains:
What about all the psychometricians who claim there's a genetic link?
The short answer is: they're not geneticists. The longer answer is that there remains a well-documented problem of scientific racism, which has infiltrated psychometry (see e.g. [5] and [6]). Psychometry is a field where people who advocate scientific racism can push racist ideas without being constantly contradicted by the very work they're doing. And when their data did contradict their racist views, many prominent advocates of scientific racism simply falsified their work or came up with creative ways to explain away the problems. See such figures as Cyril Burt, J. Phillipe Rushton, Richard Lynn, and Hans Eysenck, who are best known in the scientific community today for the poor methodological quality of their work, their strong advocacy for a genetic link between race and intelligence, and in some cases getting away with blatant fraud for many years. Isn't it a conspiracy theory to claim that psychometricians do this?
No. It is a well-documented fact that there is an organized group of psychometricians pushing for mainstream acceptance of racist, unscientific claims. See this, this and this, as well as our article on scientific racism for more information. Isn't this just political correctness?
No, it's science. As a group of scholars including biological anthropologists Agustín Fuentes of Princeton and Jonathan M. Marks of the University of North Carolina explain: "while it is true that most researchers in the area of human genetics and human biological diversity no longer allocate significant resources and time to the race/IQ discussion, and that moral concerns may play an important role in these decisions, an equally fundamental reason why researchers do not engage with the thesis is that empirical evidence shows that the whole idea itself is unintelligible and wrong-headed". These authors compare proponents of a genetic link between race and IQ to creationists, vaccine skeptics, and climate change deniers. [7] At the same time, researchers who choose to pursue this line of inquiry have in no way been hindered from doing so, as is made clear by this article: [8]. It's just that all the evidence they find points to environmental rather than genetic causes for observed differences in average IQ-test performance between racial groups. What about the surveys which say that most "intelligence experts" believe in some degree of genetic linkage between race and IQ?
Is there really no evidence at all for a genetic link between race and intelligence?
No evidence for such a link has ever been presented in the scientific community. Much data has been claimed to be evidence by advocates of scientific racism, but each of these claims has been universally rejected by geneticists. Statistical arguments claiming to detect the signal of such a difference in polygenic scores have been refuted as fundamentally methodologically flawed (see e.g. [9]), and neither genetics nor neuroscience are anywhere near the point where a mechanistic explanation could even be meaningfully proposed (see e.g. [10]). This is why the question of a genetic link between race and intelligence is largely considered pseudoscience; it is assumed to exist primarily by advocates of scientific racism, and in these cases the belief is based on nothing but preconceived notions about race. What is the current state of the science on a link between intelligence and race?
Please see the article itself for an outline of the scientific consensus. What is the basis for Wikipedia's consensus on how to treat the material?
Wikipedia editors have considered this topic in detail and over an extended period. In short, mainstream science treats the claim that genetics explains the observable differences in IQ between races as a fringe theory, so we use our own guidelines on how to treat such material when editing our articles on the subject. Please refer to the following past discussions:
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If the heritability of IQ is mentioned at all it should mention the scientific consensus on heritability
I'm not necessarily arguing that heritability has to be mentioned at all, but it is currently mentioned in the article. If the article is going to mention that environmental factors play a major role, it should be clear that IQ in adults is mostly hereditary. The article currently gives the impression that environmental factors are more important, or at least as important as hereditary factors, which may mislead a reader. The current state of this section of the article either needs to be removed entirely or added to as to not be misleading.Thespearthrower (talk) 20:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Ashkenazi intelligence
Ok, so I read this pathetic outpour in the 'net about how wikipedia is wrong and blahblah. And also that it censores science. I wouldn't want to see Wikipedia censor science, so I decided to take a look.
In a deletion discussion (one of many), there was one very sound argument for deleting it: the same could be covered by Race and Intelligence, and should be, since not every fringe theory deserves its own page. All good. HOWEVER, this page doesn't mention the theory at all! So, on to find if the scientific sources listed in a late version of the article are found, here's four that seem prominent (peer-reviewed, published): [1] [2] [3] [4]
I think it would serve Wikipedia well to critique these sources, and salvage into this article what can be salvaged, about the clearly existing and notable "exceptional Ashkenazi genetic intelligence" theory.
-- Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC) Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- You have linked a discussion from 2007, which closed as no consensus. I suggest you read the latest AfD discussion instead. [11]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:54, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- The Quillette article you linked is, at the very best, dishonest. At worst, it's a steaming pile of bullshit used to advocate racism. Happy (Slap me) 13:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Quillette, per WP:RSP, is not a reliable source for facts. Obviously we're not going to change our articles in response to their opinions. The sources you've published are largely fringe - the first one is a book review that specifically describes the book as unreliable and controversial, summarizing its argument as
limited and biased
. The second barely intelligence, and only in passing. The third is the very book that your first source dismisses as trash. The final one is... Richard Lynn, most notable for his work at Mankind Quarterly, the journal of scientific racism. This is the sort of unreliable, unscientific nonsense you get when you search for sources to back up a culture-war-trash source like Quillette. If that's all you can drudge up in support of their nonsense, it's certainly not notable. --Aquillion (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)- This is an example of gaming the standard for and meaning of "Reliable Source". RS isn't relevant here because the article wasn't being used as a source, it was shared with editors here because it's criticizing the handling of this entry. This "demonize and exile the source" mentality is exactly what the article was talking about.
- Further, RS needs to be applied to each topic and article individually - the concept of reliable source whose every article is blessed is a joke. Anyone can clearly see that the Quillette article is making easily checkable claims (specifically that the contents of this article have changed) and the burden of proof is vastly different than if someone was trying to use them as a primary source to prove the existence of UFOs. Less than perfect sources can be used, with consensus approval, when they're in a more reliable topic or when the material makes only trivial claims (ie about Wikipedia history).
- Wikipedia rules should not be quoted to shut down discussion but in a helpful manner that assumes good faith.
- InverseZebra (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- Are there any changes to the article you would like to propose? Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'm suggesting changes to talk page behavior and how non-editors are treated by editors. Proposed changes are supposed to be discussed in good faith and people clearly aren't doing that here. InverseZebra (talk) 17:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- Are there any changes to the article you would like to propose? Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Oh god, I came here to talk about this very thing and it looks like someone was already doing it. Does anyone know why there is no mention of Ashklenazi Jews in this article? Also, in the section on test scores, I think we should differentiate between South Asians and East Asians. Asian is a term that is too broad, it encompasses everyone from Syrians to Koreans.TheHaberProcess (talk) 18:11, 7 August 2022 (UTC) striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe you should not just check that somebody is discussing this but also read what they write? They write that the sources are crap. Without useable sources, we cannot mention the subject. The same holds for Asians. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
- Just noticed that this was a bit unfair since the last contribution saying the sources are crap was newer than the "oh god" contribution. Still, there you have the reason. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
When I added it I added it with this source[5]. It looks OK to me. I also found it odd the article does not mention Ashkenazi Jews at all because our are widely debated by people who study this.striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Originally I cited Forbes, I did not quite understand why it was not reliable in this context. But there is a plethora of sources, forgive me, I just put the links because proper formatting is too much work, but :
Also, it is important that we talk about Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, because there are so many anti-semitic conspiracy theories out there based on the overrepresentation of the Jews high positions, but that is shown to be bonkers once you simply control for IQ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheHaberProcess (talk • contribs) 20:48, 7 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. For content concerning scientific topics, we don't cite Vox, the American Enterprise Institute, or op-eds in the NYT. And no, it isn't even remotely necessary to 'control for IQ' to refute antisemitic conspiracy theories, any more than it is necessary to 'control for the non-existence of shape-shifting lizards' to refute similar theories concerning the New World Order, the Illuminati, or mind-control through 5G WiFi. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
But Vox and NYTimes are already cited in this article. And I think your example proves my point, it is precisely because shape-shifting lizards do not exist that those conspiracy theories are bonkers. I think your example is more about the fact that most people already know that those lizards do not exist, so there is no need to even mention it to show to most people those theories are silly. In the case of Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, this is well known among ourselves, but the public at large is not so well informed. If they were though, they would have a retort when some nutjob comes to them talking about how X or Y percent of the bankers are Jewish. TheHaberProcess (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
- Here is just another couple of examples of how salient this topic is, among psychologists, and among ourselves.
- Jordan Peterson: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/right-wing-personality-on-jewish-question-ashkenazim-have-high-iq-547159
- Stephen Pinker: https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
TheHaberProcess (talk) 21:46, 7 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)- This article does not exist to refute conspiracy theories, especially ones unrelated or tangentially-related to intelligence, and it is an insult to our intelligence that editors would believe that is the reason it is proposed to include content about the intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:06, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
I still do not understand why you guys are against inclusion of this content. The topic has been discussed in a wide range of sources, a lot of which seem very OK to me, some of whom are cited in this very article. And the topic is not tangentially-related, it is at the core of the issue. An article about race and intelligence should mention the most intelligent race, just as an article about dog breed intelligence would be remiss if there was no mention of the border collie.TheHaberProcess (talk) 22:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)- Jewish culture is focussed on learning, thinking and discussing. It is known that actually using your brain increases your competence at using it, and therefore the consensus is that any higher intelligence of Ashkenazi already has a very good explanation.
- The Pinker source you quote says,
This does not imply that differences between groups are also genetic, since one group may experience a difference across the board, such as in wealth, discrimination, or social and cultural capital
andCH&H's evidence is circumstantial
andBut all the hypotheses would have to be true for the theory as a whole to be true--and much of the evidence is circumstantial, and the pivotal hypothesis is the one for which they have the least evidence.
So, you claim Ashkenazi Jews arethe most intelligent race
, but the very source you quote regards this as highly dubious. (I did not check Peterson because he is a crappy source - most psychoanalysts do not understand how science works, and Peterson definitely does not. He talks a lot of Dunning-Krugerish nonsense about evolution too.) - It is not enough that sources
seem very OK
to you. They must alsoseem very OK
to the people here who are familiar with the subject, and the subject needs to be relevant enough. They have tried to explain why. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:29, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I agree, I think the relevant factor is Jewish moms, have you heard you are only Jewish if your mom is Jewish? The status of the father is irrelevant. I can get the ref for you if you like, but I heard Paul Bloomn in his psychology lectures saying that the fact that IQ seems to vary more by social conditions, like, whether you were born to a Jewish mother or father, as an argument against hereditarianism. It is not what you would expect if it were genetic, given you get half genes from mom and dad. I am not endorsing Pinker's or Peterson's or Bloom's views on anything for that matter, I am just saying the topic is salient enough for lots of high profile psychologists and even geneticists to discuss it.
- I am thinking of Adam Rutherford: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-book-that-could-save-lives-adam-rutherford-s-how-to-argue-with-a-racist-reviewed
- It is therefore worth mentioning TheHaberProcess (talk) 07:07, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- Paul Bloom speaks about it from 47:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piDznzrNymE&list=PL6A08EB4EEFF3E91F&index=13 TheHaberProcess (talk) 07:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- I suggest we phrase it like this, just after the first paragraph in "test scores":
The evidence is less comprehensive for other groups in the US. According to a number of secondary sources, Ashkenazi Jews are have an average IQ that is between a half and a full standard deviation above the mean for white gentiles.(sources) However, the primary research on the topic is wanting and said advantage seems to be more associated with how individuals are regarded rather than their genetic make up.(Bloom source here) Indian Americans are also a group with high average educational and occupational attainment. There is some preliminary evidence that their average IQ is roughly on a pair with that of Ashkenazi Jews.(if not Forbes, maybe this book: US-India Forward Leap—The Partnership Building - Page 140, or both) This may be because only individuals with high educational and occupational status can migrate from India to the U.S. TheHaberProcess (talk) 07:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- Surely after the mountains of previous discussion on this topic, is there really anyone who knows the first thing about the topic who is still mistaking performance on IQ tests with actual intelligence? Or that the class of people who choose to leave their ancestral home to pursue opportunities elsewhere, are a true random sample of that population? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have any content you propose to include in the article? Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:42, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I am not sure how those two last comments are relevant to my proposed addition. The second half of Maynard's comment is right in that Indian Americans are a highly selected population. Perhaps we can mention that in the paragraph? Regarding the comment by Onetwothreeip, if it was addressed to me, then yes, the paragraph above TheHaberProcess (talk) 14:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Wills, Christopher (February 11, 2009). "Review: The 10,000 Year Explosion by Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending". New Scientist. 201 (2695): 46–47. doi:10.1016/S0262-4079(09)60457-7.
- ^ Bray, Steven M.; Jennifer G. Mulle, Anne F. Dodd, Ann E. Pulver, Stephen Wooding, and Stephen T. Warren. "Signatures of founder effects, admixture, and selection in the Jewish population", Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 14 September 2010; 107(37): 16222–16227. doi:10.1073/pnas.1004381107
- ^ G. Cochran, J. Hardy, H. Harpending. "Natural History of Intelligence" Archived September 11, 2013, at the Wayback Machine, Journal of Biosocial Science 38 (5), pp. 659–693 (2006), University of Utah
- ^ Lynn, R. and Longley, D. (2006). "On the high intelligence and cognitive achievements of Jews in Britain." Intelligence, 34, 541–547.
- ^ "The IQ Wars Reconsidered" (PDF). Contemporary Sociology.
10-15 points IQ advantage of Ashkenazi Jews
Asian Intelligence in the US
Sock drawer. Generalrelative (talk) 14:59, 8 August 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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1RR and a technicality
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I stated in my edit summary here that I would "go through and put back any helpful subsequent edits in a moment". However while I was attempting to do so, Thespearthrower came in and restored a sentence they had just added. Typically "one revert" is understood to include related reverts in sequence, but since that sequence has been interrupted I don't think I can fulfill what I said I'd do without running afoul of 1RR. In any case, the only additional thing I saw to do was to cut the extraneous "therefore" in the final sentence of the first paragraph. I'll take care of that after 24 hours has elapsed unless someone else beats me to it. All other constructive edits subsequent to the major WP:BLOCKEVASION edit appear to have been cleanup.
I ask Thespearthrower to self-revert and seek consensus on the talk page for the sentence they would like to add. I do not agree that this sentence is due for inclusion in the lead of the article. See e.g. WP:HOWEVER for perspective. Generalrelative (talk) 20:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- They are obviously related. The lead says that IQ testing's validity is disputed. When making contentious claims like this, it should be clear to the reader that the scientific consensus is that IQ testing is valid. IQ testing not being valid is a WP:Fringe theory. It should not be given undue weight. Thespearthrower (talk) 20:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- IQ is generally understood to be a good measure of some aspects of intelligence, but it does not measure intelligence per se. You can read a bit of background here, though much more could be said. One could get quite into the weeds untangling the distinction between criterion validity, which IQ tests appear to demonstrate, and content validity, which they appear to lack (largely because intelligence has no essential definition other than the circular one "that which is measured by intelligence tests"). Generalrelative (talk) 21:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia, as per Wikipdedia, is not a reliable source. Multiple surveys of cognitive experts show that the scientific consensus is that IQ tests are valid for measuring intelligence. [1]
- Definitions of intelligence:
- From Dr. Sternberg: "Intelligence is the ability to learn from experience and to adapt to, shape, and select environments."
- From Oxford languages: "The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills."
- From Merriam-Webster: "The ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations."
- In the field of cognitive psychology intelligence has a pretty universally recognized definition (though of course not absolutely unanimous, fringe theories will always exist). Thespearthrower (talk) 21:59, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- 1) I pointed you toward the "Validity" section of our article on IQ because I was assuming good faith, that you might wish to learn more about the issue we're discussing. If you had looked you would have seen a number of reliable sources cited there which bear out what I have said.
- 2) As NightHeron just pointed out in his edit summary when you were reverted for the second time [12], Heiner Rindermann's surveys are not considered reliable here. This has already been discussed extensively.
- 3) When I say that IQ tests appear to lack content validity
largely because intelligence has no essential definition other than the circular one "that which is measured by intelligence tests"
, I'm not saying you will find a big blank or a circular definition when you look up the word "intelligence" in a dictionary. The issue is that it's not at all clear that IQ tests measure what these dictionary definitions are talking about. This is something that actual scientists who study this stuff are circumspect about, and Wikipedia reflects that. Generalrelative (talk) 23:01, 18 September 2022 (UTC)- 1.) I am arguing in good faith. Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and is not a reasonable source to use in factual discussion.
- 2.) Like I said, there are tons of surveys on the opinions of experts in the field of cognitive psychology. Take your pick, no survey has ever indicated anything besides overwhelming consensus for the belief that IQ testing validly measures several different subsects of intelligence and general intelligence accurately. Here is a survey with over 1000 cognitive scientists that has been cited 400 times: http://www.stafforini.com/docs/snyderman_&_rothman_-_survey_of_expert_opinion_on_intelligence_and_aptitude_testing.pdf
- 3.) It is clear that IQ testing does accurately measure intelligence (the ability to learn and reason) to the vast majority of experts in a relevant field. Some people disagree with this, but some people also believe humans don't affect Earth's climate. These people are against a huge consensus of scientists and nearly all evidence that has been found. You can IQ test a child and using the results of the test fairly accurately predict what their level of education will end up being.[2] IQ scores predict scores on achievement tests requiring crystal knowledge better than grades do. [3] Thespearthrower (talk) 10:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- It's clear to me that we are now talking past one another. If others feel the need to reopen this discussion, that's fine, but I think I've done all I need to do to explain the situation to you. Generalrelative (talk) 15:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not talking past you, I addressed your points in a polite and factual manner. If you can't defend your points, concession is the proper way to end the debate.
- It's clear to me that we are now talking past one another. If others feel the need to reopen this discussion, that's fine, but I think I've done all I need to do to explain the situation to you. Generalrelative (talk) 15:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- IQ is generally understood to be a good measure of some aspects of intelligence, but it does not measure intelligence per se. You can read a bit of background here, though much more could be said. One could get quite into the weeds untangling the distinction between criterion validity, which IQ tests appear to demonstrate, and content validity, which they appear to lack (largely because intelligence has no essential definition other than the circular one "that which is measured by intelligence tests"). Generalrelative (talk) 21:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Thespearthrower (talk) 16:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- The objections you raised have been discussed at length before, and other editors don't want to relitigate it. For more information about that, please see the FAQ at the top of this page. Concerning your "tons of surveys" and your example of supposedly one of the best of them, it's a survey from 35 years ago. NightHeron (talk) 16:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- Let's make it short: This page got into the hands of leftist wackos and it's a parody of science. As such, this page does not fulfill Wikipedia's mission as the source of objective scientific information. It should not be so difficult to refute all the ridiculous claims presented here. The only problem is enough time. Centrum99 (talk) 19:15, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
References
Information without source must be removed or sourced properly
@AndyTheGump: I don't think I can revert due to 1RR but if you see material misrepresenting the claim of its alleged source, you have to remove/modify it. Given that you realized the source doesn't correspond to the claims made in the article whatsoever, you should have removed the content or found a fitting source. Unless somebody has done so, I will be removing the material tomorrow, as per policy.-Thespearthrower (talk) 17:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- You altered data concerning the year 2017–2018, apparently based on data from the source cited, which now shows data for 2020-2021. Do you have access to the 2017–2018 data? Because otherwise, I can't see any evidence that anyone was 'misrepresenting' anything. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:30, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I've found the 2017–2018 data. [13] I'll correct the link. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:38, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you! Thespearthrower (talk) 17:55, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
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