Talk:Atlantis

More Writings on Atlantis (before and after Plato)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267981513_The_Importance_of_Herodotus%27_histories_for_the_Atlantis_problem

"Herodotus writes of an "Atlantean Sea", of a mountain called "Atlas", of a river called "Atlas" and of a people of "Atlanteans"(Before Plato). [He also mentions Pillars of Hercules.]" -- TC Franke

Diodorus Siculus, who is later than Plato, also tells an Atlantian story about Myrina and the Amazons, that appears to be unrelated to Plato's Timaeus and Critias.

Architectural research into the possible existence of Atlantis is legitimate science, not pseudoscience.

Open your mind to real science. Signalman X (talk) 22:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

@Signalman X Architectural? What are you talking about? Doug Weller talk 13:57, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

As with the above, what do you mean? What evidence are you talking about? Slatersteven (talk) 14:25, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this. -2600:1005:B141:C706:CC8B:4DF8:EB3F:8945 (talk) 15:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Violation of the NPOV Policy

The initial paragraph (and sentence for that matter) of the article immediately violates the NPOV policy and needs be corrected. Using John Hale to counter Plato is like trying to use George Washington to counter John Doukas' account of what happened at the Battle of Pelagonia. Plato's work is written in such a way that he felt and stated that Atlantis was historically real, academic scholars and classicists accept his work as a basis for facts of history on other subjects and this topic needs to be treated that way (with appropriate 'disclaimers') unless proven otherwise.

It does need to be noted that no other evidence has been given to prove that Atlantis did or did not exist with absolute certainty yet by using a section heading of Criticism, Opposition, or similar terminology instead of the scattering of labelling the whole thing as pseudoscience. Again from a NPOV because WE do not know yet if it is in fact real or fake science in any form (no matter how much any of us may or may not like that idea).

Having a separate section is the best way to properly express the lack of additional evidence to support/oppose Plato's story, beyond his own account. This section is where the unbiased perspectives of those of those who dissent against his claims should go until Atlantis is proven definitively true or false.

Instead of immediately attacking theories of Plato's story as pseudoscience (again, not a neutral point of view stance) it can be placed in its own subheading of the Criticism section where it can be stated that it is viewed by some (or many) in the academic, scientific, and other communities as pseudoscience (proper reference and citation to this will be needed other than an angry author or three - or even the article writer). Jotow (talk) 19:59, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@Jotow: Exactly what parts of the NPOV policy are violated here? Please be specific. There's no question that there has been a lot of pseudoscientific speculation about Atlantis. It's in the lead (not immediately as it's in the second paragraph) because the lead is a summary of the article. So it has to be in the WP:lead. You're new so it's easy to understand why you don't know how we build articles. I'm interested to know where "academic scholars and classicists accept his work as a basis for facts of history on other subjects". What subjects? In any case, we use reliably published sources for this article.

It isn't at all clear that Plato considered Atlantis to be historically real, and his student Aristotle didn't. So why are you so sure Plato did? Did you also read the articles discussing the two works of Plato that discuss Atlantis? Doug Weller talk 15:06, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

1. The very first sentence literally states "is a fictional island mentioned in an allegory on the hubris of nations in Plato's works..." using the words fictional and allegory. Removing the word fictional removes the direct accusation that Plato is making it up. Then using a the word allegory implies directly also the he misled the whole time. The sentence itself is attributed to an author from the 20th century who wouldn't know fact or fiction on what Plato knew.
2. Not posted before != New. I have taken my time to get educated before rambling on like an idiot (I have seen some folks do that). Just like I did with my college degrees.
3. I have read Plato's Timaeus, and Critias as part of education and he does in fact state it is real (in those works). Aristotle is irrelevant, but can be considered a critic.
4. I appreciate when people do not like their world view challenged, and therefore challenge others accordingly. This is called criticism and should to be separated accordingly.

Jotow (talk) 15:30, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

also, we do not say it is pseudoscience in the first paragraph, we do not in fact say it anywhere in the lede. Slatersteven (talk) 15:09, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

It's literally in the second sentence. Jotow (talk) 15:30, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

as well, and second paragraph, but that part is fine. My issue is the first sentence wording. Jotow (talk) 15:32, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

This apears to be the second sentence "In the story, Athens repels the Atlantean attack unlike any other nation of the known world,[2] supposedly bearing witness to the superiority of Plato's concept of a state.", I do not see it there, there is "pseudo-historic" in the first sentence, but that is not "pseudoscience". Nor do either word appear in the second paragraph (at least I can't find it) so quote, please? Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

It is consensus in science that Atlantis is fictional. Plato's style, pretending it is not, cannot override this, no matter whether you have read him or not. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:54, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Studying the myths

Plato's Goddess, Ge, who teaches about the weapons, who lived 1000 years before Amasis was Ahhotep 2, who was buried with Greek Weapons. There could be no war, before this Goddess and the Weapons. The Hephaestus, or Ptah, that lives 8000 years before that... is consistent with Egyptian Theology, but a mistake; wrong Ptah. Should be Serapis, who is linked to Ptah, or Ahmose Sipair. Avaris is explicitly named Atlantis by Pliny the Elder; It has the same city dimensions as Atlantis according to Josephus(acres).

The biggest problem with the telling of the story is that after the Hyksos are kicked out of Avaris, the Greeks move in; there is a conflation with the Hyksos and the Greeks(ie Atlantians). One of the Atlantian Kings, Ampheres, is called Mephres by Manetho; He is Thutmose I, and Egyptian, or Egypto-Greek, descended from this Ahhotep 2.

The Myrina myth, or Maryannu, is a myth of the Mitanni(Amazon), and their peace treaty with Thutmose 4(Orus of Manetho). The Atlantians of this story are the Hyksos(Syrians), where Myrina takes credit for Thutmose 4's Syrian Campaign. This conflation by Diodorus in an unrelated Atlantian tale is confirmation that Egyptians were later, also conflating Atlantians with Hyksos, when they are 2 different groups.

The Phaethon of Plato's Myth is Tut, who was a son of the sun (Akhenaten).

https://www.academia.edu/76880053/Perfecting_Plato_A_colorful_commentary_on_the_Timaeus

https://www.academia.edu/77235625/Perfecting_Plato_A_colorful_commentary_on_the_Critias_Part_1

https://www.academia.edu/69049558/Dissecting_Diodorus_The_Legend_of_Myrina_and_Orus

https://www.academia.edu/76436465/Finding_a_God_Phaethon_King_Tut_and_the_Amarna_Period — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:58B:E7F:8410:6845:132:6B34:4067 (talk) 05:36, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

None of those sources appear to be reliable sources. They're docs uploaded by the same author who does not appear to have academic credentials to support expertise in this field. (At least one doc even cites Wikipedia...) I cannot see that these have been published in any reputable journal or been subject to peer review. Schazjmd (talk) 15:58, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

It’s not fictional.

Atlantis actually was a real civilization. -2600:1005:B141:C706:CC8B:4DF8:EB3F:8945 (talk) 14:17, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Not according to most experts in relevant fields. If yo have RS that say it was a real place please provide them. Slatersteven (talk) 14:25, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I am a historian and I say it existed. -2600:1005:B141:C706:CC8B:4DF8:EB3F:8945 (talk) 14:57, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Please read wp:or. Also who are you, what books have you written? Slatersteven (talk) 15:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I haven’t written any books as of yet. -2600:1005:B141:C706:CC8B:4DF8:EB3F:8945 (talk) 15:02, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Magazine articles, have you in fact published anything that would make you a professional historian with recognized expertise in the field? Slatersteven (talk) 15:03, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I have a degree in history from the University of Montevallo. -174.199.227.134 (talk) 15:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

When you are a professor with a record of published works that have been cited by RS, then you might be able to argue you trump people who are published professors whose work has been cited by RS. Until then you are not an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

What’s RS? -2600:1005:B141:C706:CC8B:4DF8:EB3F:8945 (talk) 15:17, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

wp:rs, reliable sources. Slatersteven (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Which I had already linked to on this IP's talk page. Slatersteven (talk) 15:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

And (indeed) on your other IP as well. Slatersteven (talk) 15:21, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I am traveling, which is why my IP has changed. I have never edited on Wikipedia. -2600:1005:B141:C706:CC8B:4DF8:EB3F:8945 (talk) 15:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I have written an undergraduate thesis on history. -2600:1005:B141:C706:CC8B:4DF8:EB3F:8945 (talk) 15:53, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

We need a source saying it was not fictional, correctly wp:cited so it can ver verified [see wp:v. So let's see some sources? Slatersteven (talk) 16:12, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Djonis, Christos. Atlantis: The Find of a Lifetime. Conneaut Lake, PA: Page Publishing, Inc., 2021. ISBN 978-1-66244259-9. -2600:1005:B023:961:C8C6:85A4:59C:28A2 (talk) 17:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

That's a self-published book by a non-expert. Schazjmd (talk) 17:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

He is an expert and so am I. It’s not self-published. -2600:1005:B141:C706:C90B:7FCD:B250:F36F (talk) 17:55, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

No, he's not an expert; nor are you. And Page Publishing is a self-publishing outfit. Deor (talk) 19:30, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I am an expert. So is he. And no, the publishing company that published the book isn’t for self-publishing. Look into it yourself. -2600:1005:B159:D115:C35:24B9:5337:812B (talk) 19:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

As far I can find, Page Publisher is a self published book outfit that lacks any credibility or requirement for having it offerings peer-reviewed. Also, has your book been reviewed in academic publications by accredited and recognized specialists, e.g. historians and archaeologists? Paul H. (talk) 02:11, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Addional Note: As far as I am concerned, we are flogging a dead horse in this discussion. Also, I noted that this discussion has has spread to the Historian Wikipedia article. Paul H. (talk) 02:14, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Anon Editor, you have now been told by at least 3 users your interpretation of our policies is wrong. That you are not an RS (and nor is your other source), and thus your wp:or can't be used to overturn RS. Please drop this now. Slatersteven (talk) 09:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/11972510.Christos_A_Djonis

Does not in fact seem to have an area of expertise as he has self-published works on travel, history, economics, astronomy, and god knows what else. Slatersteven (talk) 09:38, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

It isn’t self-published as I’ve said about 10 times. -24.227.34.10 (talk) 14:57, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

And as more than one user has said, you are wrong, but for enough, I'll check as wp:rsn. Slatersteven (talk) 14:58, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I just read on their website that it is self-published. My bad. Nonetheless, it’s still a reliable source. -24.227.34.10 (talk) 15:04, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Read wp:sps. Slatersteven (talk) 15:05, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

That’s fine. I’ll change it when I create and account and when I’ve been here awhile. -24.227.34.10 (talk) 15:09, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

You will change what? Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Change it from fiction to non-fiction. -24.227.34.10 (talk) 15:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Multiple users have already said no, if you do it will get reverted, you need to get consensus before you make such a change, you have been told what you need to do. Slatersteven (talk) 15:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

This really needs closing now as a waste of everyone's time. Slatersteven (talk) 15:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I’ll still change it. It’s the truth that Atlantis was a real place and I have proof of it, as I am an expert in that field. -24.227.34.10 (talk) 15:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

For an evaulation of User 24.227.34.10's ideas go read Atlantis Claim Places Lost Continent in Cyclades by Jason Colavito. Jason was not impressed. Neither am I. Paul H. (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

He believes it exists. So do I. -24.227.34.10 (talk) 15:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)