Talk:Oscar Wilde

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2023

Change Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde to Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde (Extra F in third name is incorrect) Francespc3 (talk) 20:36, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done

I'm not sure when the extra f crept into the article but, after checking online sites and the bios in my library the OP was correct and the extra letter has been removed from the lede and the infobox. If I missed any in the body of the article please remove it with my thanks. MarnetteD|Talk 22:16, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Spelling of one of Wilde's middle names

@MarnetteD:, @Francespc3:, the extra f was added by @Tamara Gardens: in this edit on 14th February 2023, with the edit summary "Changed spelling of name from "O'Flahertie" to "O'Fflahertie" as per Donald Mead (2020) How did Oscar Wilde spell his name? The Wildean, 56, 63-72". DuncanHill (talk) 22:58, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the research DuncanHill. Without having the ability to read the ref I'd speculate that - a) it has something to do with the rules of spelling (see the Helen Mirren Miranoff/Miranov birthname situation) and, as these can change over time, they may or may not have applied during Wilde's life time - or b) Mead may have seen OW's signature with that spelling somewhere. I've seen at least half a dozen items with his signature and they were all Oscar Wilde without any of the other names. Of course, there are other possibilities that I haven't thought of. In any event per WikiP naming policies and guidelines we should go with the preponderance of the sources available. Now, it is possible that the "Ff" could be mentioned in a footnote if others think it necessary. Thanks again. MarnetteD|Talk 17:54, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello MarnetteD. I made the change to the spelling. I cited Mead's article because I suspected that other editors would check biographies etc and see that the name is often spelt with one 'f'. I have read Mead's article and it is cogently argued and definitive. I will quote here a statement from the editor of The Wildean that appeared in the following issue: "In the January 2020 issue of The Wildean, Donald Mead discussed the variant spellings of O'Flaherty/O'Flahertie/O'Fflahertie/O'fflahertie [...] Different versions were used during Wilde's lifetime and have been used ever since. The name is spelt O'Fflahertie on his birth certificate and Wilde used the double 'ff' and 'Ff' together with the 'ie' ending in important documents such as his police court statement in 1895. The spelling O'Fflahertie will be used in future publications of the Oscar Wilde Society." I am not familiar with the Wiki rules on "preponderance of sources" but I would submit that the preponderance of sources has now been shown to be in error and it makes sense to set the record straight. Tamara Gardens (talk) 19:16, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed reply Tamara Gardens. Just so you know Wikipedia guidelines uses verifiability for its articles. At the moment this situation bumps into Verifiability, not truth territory. Please don't get me wrong I am not doubting you or Mr Mead or the information in The Wildean. Considering how many sources use the single F it would help if someone else has made the same discovery that Mr Mead has. I am going to try and get more input from other editors by posting on a notice board or two. Unfortunately, this is a busy weekend so I may not get to it right away - my apologies. However things shake out we are going to need a footnote to explain a) that the article uses a single F but research has shown that Ff is on the birth certificate or b) the article uses Ff in spite of most available references use a single F. As someone who has stood on the stage in Leadville where Wilde spoke to the miners in April 1882 I would like to thank you for bringing this to our attention. Best regards. MarnetteD|Talk 17:25, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks MarnetteD. To my knowledge, nobody else has looked into the spelling, presumably because it has been seen as a fairly minor issue. It is unlikely that anyone else will look into it again, as Don Mead has resolved the issue. Of course, it will take time for his finding to filter into books. The Wildean is published on JSTOR under a three year moving wall. This means that it will be possible for registered users of JSTOR to read Mead's paper from January 2024. Tamara Gardens (talk) 19:38, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I must admit I was not aware of the Ff spelling until this came up here, but I have just had a quick look on Findmypast and there are several records there, including court records, which do use it. I don't have a subscription there to check them all. DuncanHill (talk) 19:47, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I have posted a request for input on a few wikiproject pages. It looks like my option B is going to be the way to go. We probably should wait a few days to see what other editors think. Tamara Gardens I think you mean 2023 for Mead's paper. At my age the years go by pretty fast - just not that fast :-) Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 19:58, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I do think the Mead paper will be available on JSTOR from Jan 2024 as the previous year’s issues (2019) were made available in Jan 2023. Thanks, DuncanHill, for looking on FindMyPast. I hesitate to link to individual pieces of evidence as this feels somewhat like repeating Mead’s research, but as access to his paper is currently limited people might be interested to see this ‘mental photograph’ Wilde completed, which includes his full name with the ‘Ff’ spelling (see top left of first photograph): [1]https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2020/books-and-manuscripts-a-summer-miscellany/wilde-confessions-of-tastes-habits-and-convictions Tamara Gardens (talk) 07:05, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

My mistake Tamara Gardens. Gotta work on my reading skills :-) Thanks for the link as well. Since you made the original edit I think you should have the honor of restoring the info. Please feel free do so when you have the time. MarnetteD|Talk 13:28, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @MarnetteD. I have now reinstated the Ff spelling and, as per your earlier suggestion, added a footnote with refs. Tamara Gardens (talk) 15:09, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Nice work and well done Tamara Gardens. MarnetteD|Talk 15:11, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• I'll let people hash it out, but if we use the far far less common spelling, the note needs to be right after that word (or at the very least after his name), not at the end of the sentence. Personally, I think there is also an argument to use the common spelling, especially if Wilde used that, and include the note directly after his full name to the effect that his birth certificate reads differently. Is there an MOS treatise on names we can refer to? Softlavender (talk) 20:52, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Edited to add: OK, I see above that Wilde himself used the double f, so that's good enough for me. Also, I moved the note to the end of the name rather than in the middle of the name. Thanks for all this great info, Tamara! Softlavender (talk) 21:33, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2023

Change "Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde[note 1] (16 October 1854 – 30 November 1900) was an Irish poet and playwright" to "Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde[note 1] (16 October 1854 – 30 November 1900) was an Irish writer".

Wilde is also famous for his narrative writing, namely short stories an his only novel "The Picture of Dorian Grey", as it is stated later in the article. Moreover, Wilde also wrote important essays such as "The Soul of Man under Socialism" and "The Decay of Lying". Certainly "writer" better describes the nature of his work. Pepeop96 (talk) 16:29, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Changes to the lead sentence require some level of consensus before implementation. Actualcpscm (talk) 16:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Reversion of my edit ("somdomite" ==>"sodomite")

Point taken, and I apologise for the inconvenience caused. Meltingpot (talk) 11:01, 20 March 2023 (UTC)