Talk:Millennials

Introducing 1980 in the lede

Richie wright1980 has made repeated changes to the date range in the lead to incorporate 1980, on the grounds that the pre-existing version misrepresents the date range section in the article. There is no official definition—you can find definitions ranging 1980–2004—but there are several sources in the article explicitly citing 1981–1996 as the most common frame (see second paragraph at Millennials#Date_and_age_range_definitions). So the phrase "Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with the generation typically being defined as people born from 1981 to 1996" is entirely consistent with the date range section.

Richie wright1980 has repeatedly added 1980 to the typical definition and added sources to this effect; however, his sources don't actually corroborate his claim. Yes, they provide sourcing for the 1980 date, but not for the claim that 1980 is the most common starting date. The problem here is not the "pedantry" of those of us reverting, but rather that of WP:SYNTHESIS by Richie wight1980, because he is essentially clumping together a bunch of sources that cite 1980 and drawing his own inferences from that.

If you look through the discussion archives you will see that I have consistently argued against a reductionist perspective at this article; there have been several editors who just wanted to go with the 1981–1996 range, but in the absence of an official definition I have argued for including the outlier years too. However, in the interests of neutrality and due weight it is important to make clear what the typical range is and what the outlier years are. Either way, the existing wording was established by an RFC at Talk:Millennials/Archive_14#RfC_about_the_date_range_in_the_lead_section so the wording should not be unilaterally changed without a consensus. Betty Logan (talk) 19:11, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Additionally, the sources given () aren't at all compelling. WP:MEDIUM isn't a reliable source, and two of the three others aren't remotely authoritative. McCrindle is noteworthy, but since he uses 15-year generations with start-years ending in "0" or "5", he typically doesn't agree with the majority. Dan Bloch (talk) 19:50, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Within the 'Date and age range definitions' section of the article, it is made clear that the Oxford Living Dictionaries describes a millennial as a person "born between the early 1980s and the late 1990s”. whilst Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines millennial as "a person born in the 1980s or 1990s. These dictionaries do not specify exact years.

The section goes on to further describe Jonathan Rauch's definition of 1981 to 1996 and Reuters argument that 1981 is the common starting point. I have not argued against that anywhwere nor made edits to counter that.

However, the section also goes on to describe that Australia's McCrindle Research uses 1980–1994 as well as Jean Twenge. It also mentions that CNN sometimes use 1980–2000.

There is also further mention of the 2009 report by Flynn who analysed the results of the Raven's Progressive Matrices test for British fourteen-year-olds from 1980 to 2008. Therefore, classifying that date range as a generation.

You will note my most recent edit “Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with the generation typically being defined as people born from 1980 (or more commonly 1981) to 1996”.

This is entirely consistent with the article and is entirely consistent with real world researchers. There is no re-definition going on here or personal opinion. My edits are entirely factual statements and there is no need to revert them. They can be further clarified to suggest that 1980 is 'sometimes' used as the starting point if necesarry to avoid any confusion.

However, what I think is happening here is people are averse to 1980 being used within the lede at all and that is not based on fact but personal opinion.

Richie wright1980 (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

As pointed out above, the issue is not one of sources providing different dates (there are many different sources providing different date ranges), but rather that there are two high-quality sources that explicitly state 1981–1996 is a "widely accepted definition"—a literature review also corroborates that this is the most frequently cited range, not 1980–1996. None of the sources you have offered comment on the prevalence of 1980. Stating that 1981–1996 is the most typical definition is consistent with the date range section, and other start/end dates that fall outside of this range are captured by the broader definition, so I reject your argument as a misapplication of WP:V and WP:WEIGHT. Betty Logan (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Then you could solve that by simply changing the sentence to Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years. The generation is most typically defined as people born from 1981 to 1996, however a minority of researchers use 1980 as a starting point.

The article uses four noteworthy sources of 1980 being used: McCrindle Research, Jean Twenge, CNN and Flynn's research.

That is equal to the number of high quality sources that you have attributed to in your last comment.

Therefore, my amended and proposed sentence in the lede is entirely factual.Richie wright1980 (talk) 21:14, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

"early 1980s as starting birth years" already includes 1980; we don't need to single out 1980 by saying a "minority of researchers use 1980". See WP:UNDUE: Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all... Some1 (talk) 21:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

This is the same thing that has happened over on the Generation Z article with a minority of sources using 1995/1996 as starting points. Putting "Early 1980's" in the introduction is good enough for me, at least. The widely used year range for Millennials has been 1981-1996 for years now. Zillennial (talk) 15:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Why mention early 1980s at all then? What does that even mean? 1980,1981,1982,1983,1984? Remove it and specify 1980 and 1981 as the starting points usage. Early 1980s is vague.Richie wright1980 (talk) 21:31, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, it isn't a tiny minority at all using 1980. Lots more sources can be provided quite easily. "Early 1980s" is vague and could mean literally anything. It isn't encyclopedic and there is no reason why that should stand and using 1980 with numerous sources to back it up should not stand. It's nonsensical.Richie wright1980 (talk) 21:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Removing "the early 1980s" and replacing it with 1980 would not reflect the fuzzy nature of the demarcation, and precludes other years such as 1982 and even 1983, which are occasionally used. Wikipedia is not being vague, it is describing a vague definition. There are several different start points ranging 1980–1983 and several different end points ranging 1995–2004, which is why the lead uses the language it does. The lead should not be giving undue weight to the most extreme outliers. Wikipedia's approach is not too dissimilar to Britannica's—is Britannica "nonsensical" and "unencylopedic"? Betty Logan (talk) 00:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Britannica is a poor example of an encyclopedia, with unverified content. Dimadick (talk) 11:56, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

References

RfC - 1980 as the alternative (earliest) starting birth year for millenials

I propose to improve the opening paragraph of the article to:

"Millennials, also known as Generation Y or Gen Y, are the demographic cohort following Generation X and preceding Generation Z. There are no precise or set definitions although researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years. It has been argued that millennials are typically defined as the generation born between 1981 to 1996, although 1980 has also been used as the earliest starting birth year."

A couple of people here have suggested that 1981 is the 'widely' accepted starting birth year and the lede should not contain any reference to 1980 at all. They cite two sources to support this case (). Only one of these sources supports this assertion while the other is out of date and not in support of this assertion in any case. There are countless examples of 1980 now being used as the starting year and it does not stand up to scrutiny that 1980 should be excluded from the lede. In any case, the article actually explicitly references 1980 as an alternative starting birth year within the "Date and age range definitions" section.

I propose to improve and clarify the lede based on the latest information and information already covered within the article. Therefore, making it more encyclopedic.Richie wright1980 (talk) 00:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

References

• Oppose. The first paragraph of the introduction is OK as it is. Nerd271 (talk) 01:14, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. The statement that "1981 is the 'widely' accepted starting birth year" is based on two references - one of which is out of date and does not support that statement anyway. It is a leap of faith to suggest that it is 'widely accepted' and it is not based on fact but only on one argument found in one source. There are multiple sources using 1980 as the starting year, some of which claim that 1980 is also "widely accepted starting birth year". Some respected sources claim that 1980 is the starting year. Therefore, to suggest that it is 'widely' accepted is a subjective statement and is disputed. All I have suggested is to cite 1980 as the 'earliest' starting birth year. This is factually correct and is consistent with the facts withtout actually engaging in the real world disagreement. It is perfectly reasonable.

  See these sources which cite 1980 as the starting birth year....

  https://statushero.com/blog/the-geriatric-millenial

  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335196131_Transformasi_perpustakaan_untuk_generasi_millenial_menuju_revolusi_industri_40

  https://medicfootprints.org/are-millenials-shaping-the-nhs

  https://commons.emich.edu/loexconf2006/6

  https://www.planday.com/blog/attract-millennial-customers

  https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/tag/millenial-generation

  https://mccrindle.com.au/article/topic/generation-alpha/generation-alpha-defined

  https://info.angelfishfieldwork.com/market-research-fieldwork-blog/millennials-and-market-research-online-communities-the-perfect-match

  https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/millennial.asp

  https://scholarworks.merrimack.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=phs

  https://insights.gostudent.org/en/millenial-parents

  https://budgetbakers.com/millennial-money-advice-annoying

  https://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=emergingwriters

  https://insurance.aon.co.uk/resource-center/Business-insights/Generation-X-vs-Millennials---What-are-the-Different-Attitudes-to-Work

  https://workforceinstitute.org/more-agility-in-a-vuca-world-with-a-millenial-mindset

  Richie wright1980 (talk) 01:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Contrary to the proposer's claim, the proposed wording would neither be an improvement nor clarify the definition, as discussed above at #Introducing_1980_in_the_lede for the following reasons:

1. Wikipedia is not being vague; it is defining a vague concept. There are plenty of sources that place the starting point for the demarcation between 1980 and 1983, and the end point between 1995 and 2004. That said, 1981–1996 is the most common definition. Therefore I believe the lead as it is ("Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with the generation typically being defined as people born from 1981 to 1996") is consistent with the reality of the demarcation. The approach used here is not dissimilar to that used by Britannica.
2. As Some1 points out in the above discussion, specially marking out 1980 as the "starting date" would give WP:UNDUE weight to an outlier. There is no special reason to single it out from other years in the early 1980s. It just looks pointy.
3. This is NOT an issue of sourcing; even though some of the sources brought forward by Richie wright1980 are dubious, others are reputable. Indeed, some of them are already used in the date range section to source the 1980 date. However, all these sources do is provide a source that some definitions begin with 1980, and do not comment on the prevalence of the 1980 date. By the same token 1982 and 1983 are also sourced in the article.
4. It is misleading to say only two sources are provided for the 1981–1996 date. This is not what is being sourced. What we are sourcing here is the specific claim that 1981–1996 is the most common date range used to define the demarcation i.e. the prevalence/dominance of the 1981–1996 date. Reuters states "Millennials are widely accepted as having been born between 1981 and 1996." The Economist doesn't say this verbatim, but says "Generations are squishy concepts, but using widely accepted definitions...Millennials, born between 1981 and 1996". Britannica is also in a similar vein, defining demarcation as 1981–1996 but conceding the definitions can vary by a couple of years.

The lead as it stands is consistent with the date ranges and the weighting of the dates outlined in the section at Millennials#Date_and_age_range_definitions. Betty Logan (talk) 01:33, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. I have added plenty of reliable sources above that support 1980 as the starting birth year - some of which claim that 1980 is in fact the widely used starting point. You are not able to argue otherwise as your whole argument is pinned on two sources only - one of which is out of date and does not support your view. Nevertheless, I am aware that other years such as 1982 and 1983 are also used. My proposed introduction does not contradict that. It makes clear that 1980 is the earliest starting birth year. That is a fact supported by plenty of sources. I am dubious as to why you would argue otherwise.Richie wright1980 (talk) 01:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  Depending on the sources you look at, some even start Millennials as early as 1977.[1] It's an outlier, obviously, but that makes the "1980 is the earliest starting birth year" statement inaccurate. Some1 (talk) 04:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment and amended proposal. If we take this source seriously then of course the statement that "Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years" is also factually incorrect as you have now provided a source that confirms 1977 is in use. However, in the interests of not giving undue weight to a tiny viewpoint I would be inclined to swerve it. However, 1980 is not a tiny viewpoint. Some sources claim that it is widely accepted. CNN claims that it is an alternative starting point. This is more than significant. I am willing to accept that it is not the 'earliest' possibe date. But I am not willing to concede that it should be omitted from the lede. 1980 is too significant a date given all the available sources. Therefore, the lede could be changed to: "Millennials, also known as Generation Y or Gen Y, are the demographic cohort following Generation X and preceding Generation Z. There are no set definitions although researchers and popular media tend to use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years. It has been argued that millennials are typically defined as the generation born between 1981 to 1996, although 1980 has also been used as an earlier starting birth year."

Richie wright1980 (talk) 10:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment.Let me also correct your opening statement here: "Wikipedia is not being vague; it is defining a vague concept" Let's be absolutely clear, Wikipedia is made up of its contributors - of which includes both you, me and everyone else in collaboration. You are not the authority on Wikipedia. Language like that suggests that you have no interest in listening to other points of view. I see that you have been engaging in the same debate for at least the last 4 years. Is this subject personal to you at all? I am curious because I would suggest that it defies logic and is motivated by you attempting to gatekeep the page. May I also correct your 3rd point. Some of my sources actually do argue that 1980 is 'widely accepted'. May I also add another very reliable source that also claims 1980 is the starting year:

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/2017-07/Ipsos%20-%20Millennial%20Myths%20and%20Realities.pdf

Not such an outlier opinion is it?

Richie wright1980 (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Betty Logan. The most commonly used year belongs in the lead, the distant second doesn't. Also note, if you look at the Date and age range definitions section of the article, there are 26 sources giving a start date of 1981, all of them more authoritative than the sources on your list. Dan Bloch (talk) 02:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  Prove that each one is more authoritative. List them all and explain why each source is more authoritative. We can discuss each one in turn. This is also a tone deaf response. My proposal is not to contradict the popularity of 1981, rather to clarify that 1980 is the earliest starting date in use. It isn't a huge deal.Richie wright1980 (talk) 02:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The current, long-standing lead Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with the generation typically being defined as people born from 1981 to 1996. summarizes the Date and age range definitions section of this article in accordance with WP:NPOV/WP:DUEWEIGHT and does so just fine. 1980s already includes the year 1980; there is no need or reason to specify that that specific year "has also been used as the earliest starting birth year." Some1 (talk) 04:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• CommentJust because something is longstanding does not mean it is accurate. It just means people are uneasy with changes. You are literally standing by sources that are out of date on the page. The claim that 1981 is widely accepted - above all the others - is pinned on a claim within one source only. This is not encyclopedic but a dogmatic attempt to force 1981 as the default date against all the available evidence. Wikipedia should not even claim that it is widely accepted - this is not a neutral statement but a loaded one - it should simply inform that 'it has been argued that it is widely accepted' and then present the alternatives. Besides 'early 1980s' is not an encyclopedic expression when there is plenty of evidence to justify 1980 as a good and well used example of a starting point.Richie wright1980 (talk) 10:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  See points #3 and #4 above by Betty Logan. The point of the WP:lead is to concisely summarize the most important points of the article. There is no reason to specify that "1980 has also been used as an earlier starting birth year", the same way there is no reason to say "1983 has also been used as a later birth year". It's superfluous, unnecessary, and insignificant. Early 1980s already encompasses this. Some1 (talk) 11:27, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment* What about them? Richie wright1980 (talk) 11:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment* I am happy to broaden the 'Date and age range definitions' section because there are enough persuasive sources there to suggest that 1980 is being used. Certainly a lot more than some here have suggested or given credit for. It definitely is not a tiny viewpoint when the likes of CNN are suggesting it as an alternative. And certainly not insignificant or they would not have mentioned it. In that case, when the 'Date and age range definitions' has been broadened, I would suggest that there would be even more of case to single out 1980 as a starting year. Likewise, there is absolutely no need to use vague expressions such as the 'early 1980s' when there are sources available to warrant more accurate and precise wording. I find it quite bizarre why there is resistance to a simple change. It's quite religious and I would argue unnecessary. Very bizarre.Richie wright1980 (talk) 12:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: Don't see how 1980 is in any way special when it is not the most popular starting year. The lead already says early 1980s, so obviously the common starting years are limited by being 1980 or later. This is a clear example of a personal view/preference of the years being forced unduly. BappleBusiness^[talk] 19:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose – the range seems like the better choice here. I've read the rationales by other editors and I agree with them. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Date range section

@Richie wright1980: Please do not undertake a complete restructuring of the date range section, as you did here, without first obtaining a consensus. The way you have framed the section makes it look like there is a huge debate over whether 1980 or 1981 is the "start" date for being a millenial. As you can see from the RFC above, we do not accept that such a debate exists. The emerging consensus from the RFC is that 1980 should not receive any more prominence than the other dates, so I suggest you let that finish before initiating any more changes to the framing of dates in the article. Betty Logan (talk) 23:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no need for consensus on this. Plenty of reliable sources have now been provided to support 1980 as the starting birth year as proposed by media, government institutions and academics. The comments above were based on information before this was posted as you are well aware. Whether there is a huge debate or not is not for you and I to settle - the structure is organised in the way that information is presented on the internet. If you insist on reverting these edits whilst reliable information is posted you are in breach of neutral point of view and will be reported to ANI. It is simple as that. Richie wright1980 (talk) 23:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia runs on consensus--see WP:CONSENSUS. There's no list of exceptions. In addition to Betty Logan's points, your change makes the section longer to no clear benefit, almost certainly fails WP:UNDUE / WP:BALASP, and is either carelessly done or done in bad faith, since many of the citations don't mention 1980. Dan Bloch (talk) 00:11, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Every single source of information that I have provided specifically and explicitly mentions 1980 as the starting birth year. Every single one has been carefully selected. This is entirely good faith.Richie wright1980 (talk) 00:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

1) Your restructuring makes the section unnecessary long. 2) No one is disagreeing that 1980 is being used by some as the starting birth year. The current section already states that some sources use 1980. 3) And as Betty Logan said, splitting 1981 and 1980 into separate sections makes it seem as if there's some sort of huge debate between the two years as the starting birth year, but that's not the case at all. Splitting it like that is misleading and fails WP:NPOV. 4) "Geriatric millennial" describes a proposed microgeneration in a tongue-in-cheek way, and is not meant to seriously define the Millennials generation at all. Some1 (talk) 00:45, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

But that debate - whether real or imagined - is not for you and I to settle. we describe the alternative points of view we do not engage in them and that is precisely what I have done. Richie wright1980 (talk) 00:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Date and age range definitions

There is a very strong case to split and clarify the 'Date and age range definitions' section to include information regarding the different starting birth years for millenials - most notably 1980 and 1981. 69 reliable sources listed below justify a separate sub-heading for 1980 and 1981 as starting birth years for millenials. This is supported by evidence from the media, government institutions and academics and is the most up to date available. Long term contributors to the page must be careful not to revert any changes based on WP:OWN. Contributors with different points of view are specifically invited here to improve the 'Date and age range definitions' section. I have included proposals for this below:Richie wright1980 (talk) 11:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Richie wright1980 (talk) 23:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

This change was already addressed in the "Date range section" section above, and there was a clear consensus against it. In addition to the issues pointed out there, the change is biased and non-NPOV. You claim 69 sources but you have only about 30, and half of these come from the somewhat fantastic claim that any publication mentioning the obscure term "geriatric millennials" even once is endorsing this date range even if they never mention 1980. There's no evidence that the "Google/Flamingo /Ipsos" study defines "millennial" at all--it's only mentioned in passing in the HuffPo-UK article (not the other two sources), and that one is a blog post and probably not a RS. You also include sources that mention both 1980 and 1981 in the "1980" section only. With one or two exceptions the rest of your sources are obscure, unlike the "1981" sources, which are all major. Please stop beating this dead horse. Dan Bloch (talk) 07:17, 8 August 2023 (PDT)

Further to our recent communication, thank you for the reply and I have noted the comments above. I have referred to all 69 sources as a whole, not just my own. I have argued that all of them combined justify a separate sub-heading for 1980 and 1981. Some of those sources refer to 1980, some to 1981 and some to both. They confirm the existence of both date ranges.

Reply to @User:Danbloch:

Thank you for the reply and I have noted the comments above. I have referred to all 69 sources as a whole, not just my own. I feel that all of them combined justify a separate sub-heading for 1980 and 1981. Some of those sources refer to 1980, some to 1981 and some to both. They confirm the existence of both date ranges.

The comments above address concerns regaring the lede, this section is about improving the 'Date and age range definitions' based on persausive sources. There is a request on the article page to consider splitting content into sub-articles, condensing it, or adding subheadings. This new discussion I have started here addresses this request and must not be confused with the discussion above concerning the lede.

I am willing to adapt the proposed sub-headings to '1981 as starting birth year', 'Other definitions' and 'Micro-generations'. That maintains the primacy of 1981 whilst addressing any concerns that neglected view points are properly addressed. It also addresses the concern that the article needs to be more readable.

For example, the BBC, The Guardian, Time Out etc... have referred to 1980 in some of their articles only. It must be worth mentioning that and not mislead that they have only ever referred to 1981 as the section currently implies.

What do you think?

Richie wright1980 (talk) 18:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

What I suggest, Richie, is that you leave off from editing the article until the RFC concludes, and let us get that issue resolved first. In the meantime, what you could do is go through your sources and clearly list each source separately with the range it uses (i.e. not just the start date, but the whole range) here on this talk page, preferably providing any contextual sentences, and if possible the date the sources was published. For example:

CNN (2022): Born 1981-1996 (Sometimes listed as 1980-2000)

Also, please don't cherry-pick dates. If your source provides other ranges then please also provide those too. We have no interest in creating a link farm, but if we have sources saying conflicting things then that is noteworthy. If there are date ranges we haven't covered that is noteworthy. Also, scholarly articles (especially by demographers) are considered the highest quality sources, so we'd be especially interested in those. So as a first step, we need to review what you've found, but it also needs to be in a digestible format so editors can make sense of it. Betty Logan (talk) 21:51, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you aware of the following paragraphs within the Wikipedia:Tendentious editing article?

The following constitutes Tendentious editing:

Disputing the reliability of apparently good sources

Expecting others to find sources for your own statements

Deleting the pertinent cited additions of others

This request here is simply asking too much from any Wikipedia contributor. If good faith reliable sources are persistently overturned that in itself constitutes tendentious editing. Are you aware of that? Richie wright1980 (talk) 22:04, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

As has been repeated ad nauseum, the problem is not so much the sources but what we consider your non-neutral framing of the sources. You are the editor seeking to change the article, so the onus is on you to obtain a consensus. I am simply suggesting an approach that would help other editors here review the sources you seek to introduce into the article, which we think is a task you have not undertaken neutrally so far. Betty Logan (talk) 22:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You can see above that I have modified my proposals throughout and now plan to introduce subheadings as follows: '1981 as starting birth year', 'Other definitions' and 'Micro-generations'. This has addressed any concerns about Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and framing the sources to cause any undue weight. It also addresses the concern that the article needs more subheadings – which is requested at the top of the article page. You have also been significantly accommodated throughout this discussion to maintain your assertion that 1981 takes primacy. There is not a lot more anyone could do to compromise any further.

I again draw your attention to this particular paragraph of Wikipedia:Tendentious editing:

"There is nothing wrong with questioning the reliability of sources, to a point. But there is a limit to how far one may reasonably go in an effort to discredit the validity of what most other contributors consider to be reliable sources, especially when multiple sources are being questioned in this manner. This may take the form of arguing about the number of or validity of the information cited by the sources. The danger here is in judging the reliability of sources by how well they support the desired viewpoint."

This is what you are engaging in now and I urge you not to do this. By doing so, you are undermining a valid and constructive discussion. Moreover, your use of, and threat to use again Wikipedia:Status quo stonewalling to maintain your preferred version is also undermining any collaborative effort.

Within this policy is the following which I draw your attention to:

"While it's very difficult for one editor acting alone to succeed with stonewalling, if only two or three are involved, who don't even have to be coordinating their efforts, their ability to successfully build and maintain a stonewall retaining the status quo can be distressingly effective. With a few more editors it becomes even easier."

I urge all editors not to engage in this behaviour and to take seriously on board what is a perfectly reasonable proposition and one which is perfectly compliant with Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources.

You really must move on from the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view argument now, this has already been substantially addressed.Richie wright1980 (talk) 11:15, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Your proposal affords to much WP:WEIGHT to 1980, and it is still manufacturing a debate around when the cohort starts. When the cohort ends is just as important—perhaps more important because it takes in more dates. You are also listifying the section and turning it into a link farm to distort the coverage of 1980 dates in relation to other dates. Likewise, I could similarly scrape for more sources for 1981–1996 and make the section twice as large, and I could bump up the sources for the other dates too.

The sources are clear about this: 1981–1996 is the dominant date, the de facto definition, and then there are other dates ranging from the early 1980s to early 2000s. That is how the section needs to be structured because that reflects the reality of the date ranges in reliable sources. It is not necessary to detail every single source that has used a specific date range; if anything there are too many sources in the section already because we don't need to know the dates various publications use. It should be evident to you that you do not yet have a WP:CONSENSUS to alter the structure of the section. Betty Logan (talk) 12:39, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@Betty Logan With respect, you have been the most vocal opposer of this throughout and resorted to Wikipedia:Status quo stonewalling to maintain your position. Your concerns have been substantially addressed already and I would urge you to read Wikipedia:You don't have to win by arguing. There is no such expression as a 'link farm' on Wikipedia - there would be no encyclopedia at all if that were the case. Furthermore, if that is the case then let us reduce the number of sources for 1981 since the point has been sufficiently made about its prominence already. So long as sources meet reliability and verifiability, editors are encouraged to use them. I am not concerned with making more of 1981's case here - I think you have done enough of that already. What these amendments are concerned about is taking more into account neglected viewpoints. Furthermore, the text as it stands now is misleading. Some of the publications quoted as using 1981 also use 1980 solely with no mention of 1981. That is worth mentioning. In any case, I am keen to include other editors here with different arguments as these repetitive arguments are circular and unhelpful. Richie wright1980 (talk) 12:52, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I would be more than happy for the "media outlets" that are given as examples of usage in the 1981–1996 paragraph to be deleted. I think the statistical organizations should remain though. Betty Logan (talk) 13:14, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I was actually being sarcastic. I do not advocate deleting the pertinent citations of others. I am not here to undermine the good faith contributions of fellow editors. However, if we have reached common ground in agreeing that this article requires better balance then my work is done.Richie wright1980 (talk) 18:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I think I may have cracked it folks! I am genuinely appealing for your support on this as I have taken every single person's views on board - including my own! I am going to design a table for the 'Date and age range definitions' section. It will list all the available date ranges in use and there will be a part to list all the sources that use those date ranges. It will reflect what is currently on the page as well as incorporating the sources that I have accumulated to support 1980. That way, the appropriate due weight will be obvious to the reader as the most popular date range in use will have the most sources. I think that way we give the appropriate amount of weight to each date range as well as breaking up the monotony of the page. It will look something along the lines of this...Pride Quarter, Liverpool#Timeline of Liverpool's LGBT scene. The page let's face it needs breaking up as the improvement labels suggest. Come on guys support this! Richie wright1980 (talk) 23:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I oppose turning the section into a table as it would remove the context and put all dates on an equal footing, when in reality we know that is not the case. If there are date ranges from the section that are omitted then by all means add them with an appropriate source. Prose is more effective at framing the commentary about the dates. If you persist with breaching WP:NPOV I will be left no choice but to report you at ANI again. Betty Logan (talk) 00:54, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

The new proposed Date and age range definitions section takes on board the Talk page discussion in hand and is as follows:

Date and age range definitions (Amended as per Talk page consensus and feedback)

Extended content

Oxford Living Dictionaries describes a millennial as a person "born between the early 1980s and the late 1990s." Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines millennial as "a person born in the 1980s or 1990s." More detailed definitions in use are as follows: 1981 as starting birth year Jonathan Rauch, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, wrote for The Economist in 2018 that "generations are squishy concepts", but the 1981 to 1996 birth cohort is a "widely accepted" definition for millennials. Reuters also state that the "widely accepted definition" is 1981–1996. Likewise, the Pew Research Center defines millennials as the people born from 1981 to 1996, choosing these dates for "key political, economic and social factors", including the September 11 terrorist attacks, the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Great Recession, and Internet explosion. The United States Library of Congress explains that "defining generations is not an exact science", although cites Pew's 1981–1996 definition to define millennials. Various media outlets and statistical organizations have cited Pew's definition including Time magazine, BBC, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, PBS, The Los Angeles Times, The Guardian, the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, and Statistics Canada. The Brookings Institution defines the millennial generation as people born from 1981 to 1996, as does Gallup, Federal Reserve Board, American Psychological Association, CBS, and ABC Australia. Encyclopædia Britannica defines millennials as "the term used to describe a person born between 1981 and 1996, though different sources can vary by a year or two." Although the United States Census Bureau have said that "there is no official start and end date for when millennials were born" and they do not officially define millennials, a U.S. Census publication in 2022 noted that Millennials are "colloquially defined as" the cohort born from 1981 to 1996, using this definition in a breakdown of Survey of Income and Program Participation (SIPP) data. In the UK, the Resolution Foundation uses 1981–2000. The Australian Bureau of Statistics uses 1981–1995 to define Millennials in a 2021 Census report. Other definitions CNN reports that studies often use 1981–1996 to define millennials, but sometimes list 1980–2000. Australia's McCrindle Research uses 1980–1994 as Generation Y (millennial) birth years. Likewise, psychologist Jean Twenge defines millennials as those born 1980–1994. A report by Ipsos MORI describes the term 'millennials' as a working title for the circa 15-year birth cohort born around 1980 to 1995, which has 'unique, defining traits'. Governmental institutions such as the UK Department of Health and Social Care and the Center for the Promotion of Imports in the Netherlands have described millennials as those born between 1980 to 1995. The Guardian has used 1980 as the starting birth year for millennials as has the Spanish language daily newspaper El País. A 2017 study in collaboration between Google, Flamingo and Ipsos Connect studied the parenting techniques of millennials born between 1980 to 2000. Financial media website Investopedia has clarified that various definitions for millennials exist with some of the earliest birth years starting in 1980 and some being born as late as 2004. Academic publications by the Michigan State University, Eastern Michigan University, Kennesaw State University and Merrimack College cite millenials as born in 1980. Sociologist Elwood Carlson, who calls the generation "New Boomers", identified the birth years of 1983–2001, based on the upswing in births after 1983 and finishing with the "political and social challenges" that occurred after the September 11 terrorist acts. Author Neil Howe, co-creator of the Strauss–Howe generational theory, defines millennials as being born from 1982 to 2004. Micro-generations The cohorts born during the cusp years before and after millennials have been identified as "microgenerations" with characteristics of both generations. Names given to these cuspers include Xennials, Generation Catalano, the Oregon Trail Generation; Zennials and Zillennials, respectively. The term ‘geriatric millennial’ gained popularity in 2021 to describe those born in the beginning half of the 1980s between 1980 to 1985. The term has since been used and discussed by various media outlets including New York Post, Forbes, Today, Evening Standard, CTV News, The Guardian, The Times, The Daily Telegraph, HuffPost, news.com.au, The Irish Times, Business Insider, Metro, iNews, Vogue magazine, PureWow and Glasgow Times. Richie wright1980 (talk) 12:19, 10 August 2023 (UTC) References