Wikipedia talk:Did you know

Did you know?
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This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies, and its processes can be discussed.

U.S. Bank Center (Seattle)

Queue 1: U.S. Bank Center (Seattle) (nom) @Lightburst @SounderBruce @Dahn This doesn't seem very interesting to me. Montessori schools exist in lots of places. What's so special about this one? RoySmith (talk) 14:35, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

That it's on the 23rd floor? But that's not in the hook. —Kusma (talk) 16:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Maybe our resident architecture expert Epicgenius may suggest some alternative options here? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. Let me toss a few ideas out and see what sticks:

• ALT1: ...that Pacific First Centre's developer courted the Japanese? But this might be too simplistic.
• ALT2: ...that U.S. Bank Center's lobby was a third place? Without the link, so people will wonder "Third place what?"
• ALT3: ...that a death at the Pacific First Centre caused a fine for the Erection Company? Yeah, this is childish humor, but honestly I can't think of anything else.

– Epicgenius (talk) 00:48, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

To be honest, after reading the article, I don't see anything hook-worthy. This is basically the eighth-largest generic office building in any city. RoySmith (talk) 17:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I personally wouldn't count on eighth-largest generic office buildings not being hookworthy. After all, the eighth-largest generic office building in NYC had a hook about a whole Broadway theater at its base...

If there's anything more that can be said about the design, perhaps someone can write a hook about the design features of this building? – Epicgenius (talk) 22:47, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith: please do not shut it down. I find it interesting and EG came up with some great options. Lightburst (talk) 23:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Except in the most egregious cases (which this certainly isn't) I see my role as a queue promoter as commenting on problems I see. I leave it to others to figure out what to do about it. RoySmith (talk) 23:35, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

alt4: ... that, after being called "U.S. Bank Centre" for nearly 30 years, a building in Seattle was renamed, to "U.S. Bank Center"?

i'm not sure if it works better without the comma after "renamed". also, i couldn't decide where to put the link: on the former name, the current name, or "a building in Seattle". note that this hook fact isn't currently explicitly stated in the article; i am relying on wp:calc and trusting that the dates mentioned in the article are accurate, as i do not have access to the cited sources. dying (talk) 00:15, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Is there a reason that adding "on the 23rd floor" to the Montessori school hook doesn't work? That was my first thought with "Erection Company" being my second. Vaticidalprophet 02:07, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I've updated the hook per the above suggestion. I still think it's not very interesting, but it's less uninteresting than it was before :-) RoySmith (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I actually liked ALT3 even if it was admittedly childish humor. But eh. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:37, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, if we're looking for childish, we could resurrect my Brontosaurus hook :-) RoySmith (talk) 23:42, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

i really liked your brontosaurus hook that you have, that is to say, which is yours. this is it. that is your hook. dying (talk) 00:31, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Queue 2: Emeliana Aiza

• ... that while serving in the Bolivian parliament, legislator Emeliana Aiza (pictured) took night courses to receive her high school baccalaureate?

Minor point, but the article doesn't say "high school" anywhere. Perhaps we could infer that the "Gualberto Villarroel School" is a high school, if indeed they have such a concept in Bolivia, but should explicitly clarify that somewhere. And actually, on that topic, the link in the article and hooks is to Spanish Baccalaureate, but is that really what she gained? The source doesn't seem to explicitly say it's a qualification from Spain. @AirshipJungleman29, Gobonobo, and Krisgabwoosh:  — Amakuru (talk) 17:39, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

The Spanish Baccalaureate is the model used in most Latin American countries – I linked it because "baccalaureate" is a more precise term than high school diploma, the English equivalent. To receive one's baccalaureate exclusively denotes that they completed secondary school or equivalent. E.g. someone who received their high school diploma can be said to have graduated high school, even if the institution they attended doesn't have "high school" in the name (the Kirov Academy of Ballet, for example). Krisgabwoosh (talk) 17:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Admittedly, "high school" isn't really a term I typically use when talking about Latin American education – preferring the term "secondary school". However, for the hook, I figured "high school" would be more understandable to a broader audience. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 17:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Notes

Krisgabwoosh (talk) 17:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29, Gobonobo, and Krisgabwoosh: sorry to be difficult, but I am seeing this as not meeting the DYK rules at present. Per WP:DYKHOOK, "The hook should include a definite fact that is unlikely to change, and citations in the article that are used to support the hook fact must verify the hook". Currently the assertion that she received a diploma from a high school, and also the fact that this was a Spanish baccalaureate, are both uncited in the article. This will need to be fixed up before the hook goes live, currently scheduled for Wednesday. If more time is needed than that, we can always push it back. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:48, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

A simple fix would be to change "high school baccalaureate" to "secondary school baccalaureate" and, if need be, de-link the word. I do apologize if I come off a bit frustrated, but I personally think it's quite counterintuitive to discount certain facts simply because they're not explicitly spelled out – we must be able to infer at least some meaning from surrounding context. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Amakuru The Spanish Wikipedia has an article for the generic baccalaureate (es:Bachillerato), but we only have an article here for the degree from Spain. As far as I can tell, Gualberto Villarroel only offers secondary school level degrees. I think Krisgabwoosh's suggestion of unlinking the baccalaureate and changing it to secondary school baccalaureate should address the concern. gobonobo ^{+ c} 21:34, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I've also gone ahead and added the Spanish article as an interlanguage link alongside the existing English article. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 00:33, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Queue 4

Mitzura Arghezi (nom)

The hook has 205 characters. I'd leave out the word "writer". Schwede66 07:47, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I've actioned that. Schwede66 21:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Murder of Li Sin-heng (nom)

It's minor, but the source and article say this quote is about knowing the victim, not meeting her. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 04:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Minuscule 1582

Queue 6: Minuscule 1582 (nom) @Vaticidalprophet @Stephen Walch @Frzzl There's two issues here. One is that I don't see the connection between the hook fact and the article. I see where the article discusses Mark 16:9 starting at After Mark 16:8 is a colophon... but I can't work out how that "casts doubt on the authenticity of these verses?" Maybe it's obvious to a biblical scholar, but I'm not seeing it.

The other issue is that Frzzl reviewed both the GA and the DYK, which appears to violate WP:DYKRR. RoySmith (talk) 15:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Please pull this, then. This needs a new reviewer. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Please do not pull this - you seem to have misunderstood the discussion. I was not the review, that was @Narutolovehinata5, who was previously unrelated to the article. I was the one who ultimately stuck a tick on it, as I ended up offering an alt after the discussion went stale. @Gerda Arendt and I both interacted with this nomination, but this did not make us reviewers; my putting-the-tick-on was only a result of Gerda's courtesy to check approval of the selected hook by all participants, and me being late to reply. There is therefore no violation of WP:DYKRR.

I'm going to have another check through the article, but I don't recall having any doubts about the current hook.  Frzzl  talk; contribs  16:53, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

If you put the tick on it, you were the reviewer of record. If Gerda wants to give a tick, she knows how to do that. But there's still the issue of the casting doubt which needs to be addressed. RoySmith (talk) 16:58, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

What RoySmith said, Frzzl: if you ticked it, you are saying you reviewed it and have made sure it meets the criteria, something that a GA reviewer is not allowed to do. Gerda's been doing DYK for well over a decade, and knows how to conclude her own reviews; you are free to ping her on her talk page to get her attention on a needed approval. You can always edit the article or post to the review, if you wish, but cannot pass final judgment on its fitness as a DYK. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

RoySmith, the colophon says In some of the copies the evangelist finishes at this point, at which point also Eusebius Pamphili finished his canons. But these [verses] are also found in many (others), the manuscripts that finish at Mark 16:8 suggest that Mark 16:9-20 was not regarded as part of the Gospel of Mark, while the manuscripts that include Mark 16:9-20 suggest the opposite. Hence the colophon shows that there was doubt about whether Mark 16:9-20 was authentic (i.e. part of the Gospel of Mark rather than a later addition). Hopefully someone who knows more about the subject than I do can explain this in the article. TSventon (talk) 10:26, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

OK, that helps, thanks. I suspect this is something that will only really make sense to people who are already familiar with the topic, but such is life. I also see that "miniscule" is linked to Letter case in the lead, which I suspect is not the meaning you intended. RoySmith (talk) 14:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I have changed the link to New Testament minuscule. TSventon (talk) 18:29, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Jessica Berman

Queue 6: Jessica Berman (nom) @Vaticidalprophet @Longhornsg @Onegreatjoke I'm concerned about WP:PARAPHRASE. The entire Career section is right out of Jewish Telegraph Agency with trivial changes like

• She first worked -> Her first job
• From there, Berman joined the NHL, where over the course of 13 years -> She then spent 13 years at the National Hockey League
• In 2019, Berman became -> In 2019, she was named
• making her the first woman to hold that title in a men’s professional sports league -> becoming the first women to hold the position of deputy commissioner of a men's professional sports league.

Somebody else should take a look at this, but it fails my filter. RoySmith (talk) 15:54, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

BlueMoonset asked me to take a look at this - I would agree this section is on the close side. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I'll take a stab at rewriting a bit. Longhornsg (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I was going to pull this, but if you say you're working on it, I'll hold off on that to give you some time. Please don't take too long, however. RoySmith (talk) 15:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Added additional sources and rejiggered so its not such a close para of JTA. Let me know if that doesnt work. Longhornsg (talk) 15:38, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that looks better, thanks. I recognize that with this sort of biographical history, it's hard to come up with a truly original way to convey the list of positions held. The general idea is to avoid starting with the original text and altering it. Instead, extract from the original text the facts that are being conveyed, and then take that collection of facts and cast it into your own prose. RoySmith (talk) 15:44, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Queue 2: Arthur Yorinks

• ... that Arthur Yorinks's Louis the Fish was inspired by Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis, despite being a children's book?

The two facts here - that Louis the Fish was inspired by The Metamorphosis, and that it's a children's book - are fully cited and correct. However, I'm slightly concerned about the use of "despite" here. The sources don't appear to connect these two things in particular, so for us to do so here appears to be an element of WP:SYNTH. The article also doesn't say that it's inspired by the work despite anything. @MonarchOfTerror, Vaticidalprophet, and Onegreatjoke: Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:59, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Amakuru: So I had a look to see where I might've gotten the despite from and Children's Books and Their Creators (source number 2 in the article) has this line: "Yorinks’s inspirations come from many sources, including, a bit unexpectedly, Franz Kafka’s Metamormorphosis. In Louis the Fish (1980) ...". It might still be too WP:SYNTH however since it doesn't mention that Louis the Fish is children's book directly either, I'm fine with either modifying the hook to something like "... that Arthur Yorinks's children's book Louis the Fish was inspired by Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis?" or switching to the original hook/ALT1 instead. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 19:13, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@MonarchOfTerror: OK, I've tweaked the wording per your suggestion. That works. Cheers!  — Amakuru (talk) 19:46, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Amakuru, you've omitted the italics for The Metamorphosis, which is required for a book title and was properly formatted that way in the original hook. Can you please restore them before the hook hits the main page in just under twelve hours? Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:16, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Alas, poor Yorinks also needs the {{'s}} to be replaced with {{`s}}. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 00:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done both. Thanks.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Queue 7

Airdate: 00:00, 9 October 2023 (51 days' time)

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

Dylan Cook (nom)

• ... that football player Dylan Cook was a quarterback in college and now plays offensive lineman in the National Football League?

@BeanieFan11, Bloom6132, and FormalDude: I know that it's a rare transition from what BeanieFan11 has said (although I had to cut that from the article), but I don't think it's likely to be perceived as unusual by the reading audience. (The trouble with smaller articles is that often you don't get the high-quality sourcing that draws those connections, and you have to instead work off of primary sourcing.)

Failing that, Cook's NFL position appears only the infobox, and isn't sourced. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:14, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron: I'm seeing that his transition being rare is in fact sourced here. ––FormalDude (talk) 19:47, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

checks out, feel free to reinstate with that source (I'll be away for a bit). theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Is there any hope of rephrasing this hook in a way that would make it more obvious to non-fans that going from QB to OL is very unusual? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Is it also possible for there to be another hook option here? The old supplementary guidelines did say that we shouldn't assume that the whole world is aware of the intricacies of sports, and I imagine most of the world doesn't even know what a quarterback is, let alone how changing positions in American football can be uncommon. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

that guideline wasn't about interestingness, it was just making sure people provided context for their hooks. We can make it interesting, but I'm not sure it's really worth it to basically just tell our readers "trust me, this is cool". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 02:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

We could do something like:

• ... That Dylan Cook is one of only N players in history to switch from playing quarterback to the offensive line?

assuming we could find the correct value of N in a WP:RS. RoySmith (talk) 02:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Would my ALT suggestion the nom work? - ... that current NFL player Dylan Cook went from being the quarterback to protecting the quarterback? That was the best I could think of - if its not considered interesting, I'd be fine withdrawing it. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I like that one. I suggest we go with it. RoySmith (talk) 14:55, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Hooky enough for me too. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Fine by me! Can one of you update Queue 7 accordingly? Also, NFL should be unabbreviated and wikilinked. ––FormalDude (talk) 22:30, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Done. I intentionally dropped "current", however. RoySmith (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Jewish tartans (nom)

• ... that there are Jewish tartans made for the Jewish community of Scotland?

@Bohemian Baltimore, CJ-Moki, and Vaticidalprophet: I think we could buck up this hook by mentioning the length of time in between Jews arriving in Scotland and the first tartans being created and canonized. Something like:

• ALT2: ... that the first Jewish tartan was designed over 300 years after Jews first began arriving in Scotland?

Also, the paragraph on the 2016 design is suffering from close paraphrasing. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron: I agree that ALT2 is more informative and interesting than ALT1. CJ-Moki (talk) 22:36, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

pulled on account of the CLOP not being addressed – discussion can continue at the nompage. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I think ALT2 is fine. I'm okay with using it. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 23:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Older nominations needing DYK reviewers

The previous list was archived a couple of hours ago, so I've created a new list the first 39 nominations that need reviewing in the Older nominations section of the Nominations page, covering everything through September 22. We have a total of 203 nominations, of which 66 have been approved, a gap of 137 nominations that has decreased by 2 over the past 9 days. Thanks to everyone who reviews these and any other nominations.

More than two months old

• July 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402

More than one month old

• August 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Inferno (Counter-Strike)
• August 18: Template:Did you know nominations/James B. Tapp (need to check previous reviewer’s proposed hook)
• August 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Kessel Run
• August 26: Template:Did you know nominations/No Highs
• August 27: Template:Did you know nominations/2023 Chicago Marathon (date request for October 8!)
• August 27: Template:Did you know nominations/Sam Solomon
• August 29: Template:Did you know nominations/The Hustler (novel)
• August 29: Template:Did you know nominations/Native Island
• August 31: Template:Did you know nominations/Maurice Duplessis
• August 31: Template:Did you know nominations/Kathanar - The Wild Sorcerer
• September 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Sommer Ray
• September 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Michigan prosecution of fake electors
• September 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Louise Franklin
• September 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Music of 428: Shibuya Scramble and Canaan
• September 3: Template:Did you know nominations/John Neilson (Lower Canada politician)

Other nominations

• September 5: Template:Did you know nominations/India national football team at the Asian Games
• September 6: Template:Did you know nominations/Deli 613
• September 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Henry Sparshott (two articles)
• September 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Lenin–Stalinnin tugunun adaa-pile
• September 9: Template:Did you know nominations/Rex v Bourne
• September 9: Template:Did you know nominations/Get Him Back! (2nd nomination)
• September 9: Template:Did you know nominations/Fyodor Basmanov
• September 13: Template:Did you know nominations/SPICES (Scouting)
• September 14: Template:Did you know nominations/Shootings of Sydney Land and Nehemiah Kauffman
• September 14: Template:Did you know nominations/Larry Grant (elder)
• September 14: Template:Did you know nominations/September 2023 northeastern U.S. floods
• September 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Joshua Sacco
• September 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Earl Witte
• September 16: Template:Did you know nominations/Myriel Davies
• September 17: Template:Did you know nominations/Wad el-Mahi
• September 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Luca Salsi
• September 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Candlemas Island
• September 18: Template:Did you know nominations/AreYouKiddingTV
• September 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Julia Allison
• September 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Freddy Huayta
• September 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Amrita Shah
• September 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Boys Town (Beaudesert)
• September 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Trần Lập

Please remember to cross off entries, including the date, as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Please do not remove them entirely. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 04:39, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Help requested

Requesting help with the review of the "Get Him Back!" DYK nomination. It involves a bit of a unique situation with a prior AfD (Following comment removed by author) and probably won't be reviewed by the less-experienced. Following comment removed by author.--NØ 09:14, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

A Friend of the Family in Queue 2

Queue 2: A Friend of the Family (miniseries) (nom)

@Pamzeis, MaranoFan, Evrik, and Vaticidalprophet:

• Hook: ... that to portray a child abductor in A Friend of the Family, Jake Lacy took inspiration from Danny Ocean and Steve McQueen?

Danny Ocean is a fictional character so I'm not particularly concerned with that, and while I know Steve McQueen died in 1980 and therefore isn't a WP:BLP, I'm concerned by the wording of the hook, which to me implies that Steve McQueen has some association with child abduction, which is what I thought was being implied when I first saw the hook. The article itself clarifies that the actor Jake Lacy took inspiration from Ocean and McQueen for their fearlessness and charisma, which makes more sense. Should the hook be reworded to clarify what inspiration was taken so that any such implication isn't presented, or am I reading too much into this? - Aoidh (talk) 11:25, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

OK, possible alt, maybe?

• ... that to portray a child abductor in A Friend of the Family, Jake Lacy took inspiration from Ocean's Eleven character Danny Ocean?

Pamzeis (talk) 13:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

The new proposed hook looks good to me. I guess there might be a way to keep both the names and still have it be within the character limit, something like:

• ... that to portray a child abductor in A Friend of the Family, Jake Lacy took inspiration from the fearlessness and charisma of Danny Ocean and Steve McQueen?

--NØ 18:24, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• I do think this second proposed hook would be better, since it retains the interesting aspect of the original hook but adds important contextualization. Does anyone have any objection to this one? - Aoidh (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, I don't love that it feeds into the same trope of, like, "oh look at how smart this serial killer is! Did so well in school, just a bit shy but always charismatic...". Maybe just:

  • ... that to portray a child abductor in A Friend of the Family, Jake Lacy took inspiration from Danny Ocean?

  theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 02:16, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  There is a reason it's a trope; I prefer the second proposed hook. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:19, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• @Theleekycauldron: I certainly see where you're coming from, but in this instance (according to the source in the article) the trope is present because the actor himself is the one leaning into it. I think some sort of contextualization is needed whether it involves the fictional character alone or not, because it feels clickbaity to make it sound like there's an association with child abduction in people (fictional or otherwise) with no such association. That's my main concern. - Aoidh (talk) 15:11, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Since a few editors have expressed support for the second suggested hook I've tentatively updated the hook accordingly, but if there's a better hook wording I'm open to more suggestion. - Aoidh (talk) 18:20, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Republicopteron in Queue 2

• ... that the katydid-like fossil Republicopteron douseae possibly could not sing?

This was "possibly couldn't sing" until just before full protection. Spelling out the contraction makes it clunky. Could the original hook be restored? Vaticidalprophet 19:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vaticidalprophet I think some people like to avoid contractions because we're expected to use formal language when writing encyclopedic articles. Whether the formality should be extended to DYK hooks is, I suppose, debatable. BorgQueen (talk) 19:33, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I spell out all contractions in articles too. That's not the case for hooks, and I've never seen it be the case before...today, really. Vaticidalprophet 19:36, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

MOS:CONTRACTIONS is pretty much routinely ignored by DYK, yeah – our writing style has always been slightly more informal. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:55, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

That didn't used to be the case; back in the day I can remember many hooks changed when under review to avoid contractions, or at the point of promotion. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

on a completely unrelated note, i don't think i've ever seen a singing fossil. (by the way, i think the image hook of that set is missing a "(pictured)".) dying (talk) 00:31, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course I overlooked something. :) I've added it, though because of the exact wording I was considering making it (carrier pictured) but I don't know if that's necessary. - Aoidh (talk) 01:13, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I do not think the correction was a mistake. I imagine I may have made the same change. Lightburst (talk) 04:40, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

thanks, Aoidh. speaking of overlooking things, i completely missed the fact that "Sea" should not be italicized in the caption. "Intrepid" is in italics because it is the name of a ship. "Sea, Air & Space" describes the subject matter of the museum. could someone please correct the caption? sorry to be a bother.

also, i apologize for being somewhat opaque in my original comment about the republicopteron hook. to be more clear, what i meant was that, from my reading, the current hook expresses doubt that a fossil could sing, which doesn't seem all that surprising because fossils generally do not sing. what the hook probably meant to say was that the katydid-like insect r. douseae may not have been able to sing while it was alive, which, i assume, is interesting because katydids generally can sing (while they are alive).

i am not sure if i am the only one having trouble with this hook, but if this seems like a valid concern, i would suggest either replacing "fossil" with "insect" or dropping the word altogether. in addition, "extinct" could be inserted before "katydid" if "fossil" was originally used to suggest to the reader that the species is now extinct. dying (talk) 02:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Dying: I've adjusted the italics. - Aoidh (talk) 03:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Prep building

Just wanted to come here and say that I have been promoting a handful of hooks each day. I do not have time to fill out a every slot in a prep set so I only promote a few. If anyone here sees any issue with a promoted hook or image feel free to move them to suit prep building needs. There was a question about my image promotions today so I thought to mention it here. Cheers! Lightburst (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour (nom) in Prep 4

(If anyone's interested, I reviewed this article's DYK nom.) Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour is currently in Prep 4, which is set to go live on 13 October in most of the world. That date's also the film's release date. The hook mentions the release date pretty prominently:

• ... that Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour caused the horror film The Exorcist: Believer to move its release date one week earlier from Friday, October 13, 2023?

While not technically a special occasion (it was never requested as far as I know), this seems to fall afoul of WP:DYKSO, which states that hooks for such occasions should not put emphasis on a commercial release date of the article subject for promotional reasons. Thoughts, anyone? Pinging the nominator, the three authors and promoter. Also pinging Vaticidalprophet, who made a comment about waiting some time for promotion on the nom page. Pamzeis (talk) 05:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Re-ping: Ticklekeys. Pamzeis (talk) 05:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I was the nominator, and WP:DYKSO was the reason why I did not specify for a date for the DYK to appear. I propose changing the date part in the hook as follows: "... that Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour caused the horror film The Exorcist: Believer to move its release date one week earlier from a Friday the 13th?" Thus, the release date is not explicitly mentioned. Also, as I commented on the nom page talk, if someone more familiar with the DYK process can shed light on spacing out similar topics on the main page, that will be greatly appreciated. Shuipzv3 (talk) 07:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

As the promoter, I thought that it was the release date of the horror film that was being promoted; I figured that since it was moved a week earlier, it would be fine. I didn't see that the Swift movie releases on Friday 13th; I can see how it might be construed as promotional. Maybe move it a couple of daysater? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this should be moved. Schwede66 18:38, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Falnama

Queue 4: Falnama (nom) @Vaticidalprophet @MartinPoulter @DrThneed I have serious WP:CLOP concerns about the big table in the Surviving Falnama manuscripts section. It is almost a word-for-word transcription, with some minor formatting changes, from the table on p 247-248 of I'll hold off pulling this for now, but somebody should take a look at this soon. RoySmith (talk) 14:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Hi @RoySmith:, the table in the source lists the titles of the paintings and whether the omen is good, bad, or middling, so that's information that needs to match the source. Then for each painting there is some explanatory text, which is original text I've written to summarise what a source says about that painting. So I wouldn't say that the whole table only has minor differences from the table in that book; it has substantial original text, but a lot of text matches that source because the painting titles have been copied over from this or from another source that translates the titles. Hope this clarifies, MartinPoulter (talk) 10:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Savannah Protest Movement

Queue 4: Savannah Protest Movement (nom) @Vaticidalprophet @JJonahJackalope @Epicgenius The hook is kind of wordy. Might I suggest:

• ALT2: ... that future Georgia representative Edna Jackson was part of a wade-in to protest segregation at Tybee Island Beach?

RoySmith (talk) 14:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith, that sounds fine to me. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:24, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Frank (company)

Queue 4: Frank (company) (nom) @AirshipJungleman29 @Thriley @Mottezen The article says According to the lawsuit, Javice claimed that Frank had 4.25 million users; in reality, the company had fewer than 300,000 This needs to be reworded to make it clear that "fewer than 300,000" is something claimed by the lawsuit, not something we're stating in wiki voice. RoySmith (talk) 14:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Done. Mottezen (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, I think I promoted the wrong hook by accident. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Rebecca Struthers

Queue 4: Rebecca Struthers (nom) @Lightburst @Panamitsu @Sahaib I gotta ask, lightburst, if you knew the claim would be questioned, why did you promote it? By the time it gets to a queue review, it's a lot more work to fix. Yes, it's being questioned. DYK has had lots of problems with first, best, only, etc claims. In this case, the supposedly WP:RS is an interview, which means she said, "I'm the only" and the interviewer wrote that down. That's not good enough. RoySmith (talk) 15:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith: I apologize if that promotion was a mistake. I read the article and from my reading, the article's writer (Jo Glasbey) made the statement that she was "only". I know there is scrutiny on claims like this so I stated that in the nomination. Lightburst (talk) 16:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith: Would you like to move it back so nominator and reviewer can work on another hook? To replace you can pick a biography from a prep? There are a few in Template:Did you know/Preparation area 5 and I can work on replacing the one you remove. Lightburst (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It looks like she's the only person ever to gain a PhD in horology [1], which makes the current hook a little pointless, but does of course suggest a different hook based on that fact. Black Kite (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Um, actually, perhaps not - "the first person ever to combine the practical skills of watchmaking with the theoretical research behind an impassioned doctoral thesis about Dutch watch forgery." suggests she might actually be the only watchmaker. In any case, this source means the original hook is OK. Black Kite (talk) 16:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Black Kite that's another interview. Interviews don't make good sources for "I'm the only person ever to do something wonderful" assertions. RoySmith (talk) 16:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. There's also this and this, though both say she's the first watchmaker to earn a Ph.D. in horology in the United Kingdom (which is slightly different). Frankly, I've no doubt that the hook is right, but it's such a niche subject that you're only ever going to get RS articles that areinterviews with the subject, or similar. Black Kite (talk) 16:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, at this point the easiest thing would be to fix it in-situ. Yanking a hook from a queue is a pain. RoySmith (talk) 16:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the link @Black Kite:, the horology bit made me click and interested me. I imagine it may cause others to click. Maybe we come up with a hook that includes horology? Lightburst (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Reading the article, I'm thinking something that talks about how an Egyptian water clock is connected to the Apple Watch might be hookworthy. RoySmith (talk) 16:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

That's not really about her, though. To be honest, I think having a PhD in horology is hook-worthy in itself, whether she's the first, only, or whatever. Here's another link - NYT - that I can't read because it's behind a paywall [2]. Black Kite (talk) 16:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Black Kite: Here is your link archived Lightburst (talk) 17:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"a degree the university says is the first of its kind in Britain". So we've certainly got as far as that. Black Kite (talk) 17:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

If we can't use the "only", how about "... that the watchmaking course Rebecca Struthers took no longer exists?" If we could be more playful, we could do something like "... that the watchmaking course Rebecca Struthers took popped its clogs?", although that one doesn't sound particuarly interesting. —Panamitsu (talk) 00:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Some pre-2017 horology/watchmaking doctoral dissertations:

• Pierre Hostettler, The Future of the "World Watch Industry": A Comparative Study Using Delphi, Texas Tech University, 1976, [3]
• Ryan Raffaelli, Identity and institutional change in a mature field: The re-emergence of the Swiss watchmaking industry, 1970–2008, Boston College, 2013, [4]
• Yu Fu, A study on the dynamics of periodical impact mechanism with an application in mechanical watch escapement, Chinese University of Hong Kong, 2008, [5]
• Jane Desborough, The Changing Face of Time: the Making of the Modern Clock & Watch Dial 1550-1770, University of Leeds, 2016, [6]

Note that the last example shows that even the more restricted claim of being the first British doctoral thesis in this topic is false. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for finding those. Let's put to bed the idea of rehabilitating this hook and find a different one. It's really hard (basically impossible) to prove a "first" claim unless it's from an enumerable set (i.e. "First United States president to have three arms"). My Egyptian idea didn't float, so what else do we have? RoySmith (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Good research @David Eppstein:. Maybe we can just shorten it to

• ALT1: ... that watchmaker Rebecca Struthers has a PhD in horology?

I am guessing many people would be curious enough to check it out. It would also be nice if we clean up the horology article. Lightburst (talk) 21:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• ALT2: ... that at her PhD defense, Rebecca Struthers showed that she could clean your clock?

It's a pity she's not a Chicago fan, because then we could do something with Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?. RoySmith (talk) 21:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith: it is playful and clickable but I do not see a description of her PhD thesis in our article. Lightburst (talk) 22:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Though it doesn't appear that any of those four theses appear to be part of an actual PhD in horology. The first one is for a PhD in Management and the second for Business Administration. The actual degree is a little unclear for the other two; but the third is from the Faculty of Automation and Computer-Aided Design, and the fourth from the Faculty of Philosophy, Religion and the History of Science. Regardless, it's clear enough that a PhD in horology is rare enough that it's a useful hook regardless of whether it's the first or only. Black Kite (talk) 12:36, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Lightburst (talk) 14:03, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Maurice Duplessis and QPQ questions

With respect to Template:Did you know nominations/Maurice Duplessis, the nominator has started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Guidelines regarding the QPQ. Comments from anyone are welcome. Flibirigit (talk) 19:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Prep 5, Sheryl Cooper

"... that Sheryl Cooper (pictured) and her daughter Calico beheaded Sheryl's husband in front of a live audience?" Am I the only guy who had to click it to see if it was literally true? If not, I thought we didn't post things that were false and not just misleading. Art LaPella (talk) 04:50, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

You're not the only one. To move it towards merely misleading, perhaps at least mention they did this more than once without switching to a new husband. —Kusma (talk) 11:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Indexing of DYK nominations

DYK nominations are usually indexed by Google search results – given that most noticeboard discussions are exempted, I'm not sure that we shouldn't be following that path. Thoughts? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:24, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I've just searched a couple articles of mine for which WP and mirrors are the main results, and didn't find any DYK nominations. On the other hand, I routinely find AfDs in searches, which aren't indexed by WP proper but are indexed by mirrors, so it's not clear that noindexing would change anything even if these did come up high in results. There's a lot to say about that one. Is there a particular issue this is hoping to solve? Vaticidalprophet 18:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

this search takes you pretty much right to the DYK nom – it'll often get buried by more relevant pages, but it is still indexed. Hooks that are struck on BLP grounds routinely appear in DYK noms – keeping them out of the public eye might be a good idea. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Would finally moving DYK noms into a less unsuitable namespace ("template" is about as appropriate as "timed text") help? —Kusma (talk) 18:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

No, but we really should do that. Didn't we have an RfC about that? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:54, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I must confess, when I first started doing DYK, figuring out how to navigate the seemingly random namespaces was mind-bending. Things like Template talk:Did you know/Queue redirecting to Wikipedia talk:Did you know are really confusing. RoySmith (talk) 21:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

There was the Namespace transition master plan, which iirc saw many of the scripts/bots edits to become namespace neutral in the event consensus for a change did emerge (and the willpower to get it done). CMD (talk) 06:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Mistaken DYK accept and reviewer's response to error being pointed out

I noticed that the recent DYK Campbell's Soup Cans I was an article split that had not received 5x expansion as required by the DYK rules. I assumed that the reviewer in question, Ykraps, was not aware of the split or else unfamiliar with the rules. Unfortunately, when I pointed it out, the response was not encouraging. Although eligibility issues are not the most concerning errors that could make it through an inadequate DYK review, I believe that people who are not following the rules should not be reviewing at DYK. (t · c) buidhe 05:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

DYK suggestion?

Kamala

1. ... that International Championship Wrestling waged a two-year promotional war against the National Wrestling Alliance? Source: Langmead, Jon (October 19, 2020). "Culkin shares legendary Mississippi wrestling stories". SLAM! Wrestling.
   1. ... that included filing an anti-trust lawsuit against NWA Tri-State promoters Leroy McGuirk and Bill Watts? Source: Klein, Greg (2014). The King of New Orleans: How the Junkyard Dog Became Professional Wrestling's First Black Superhero. Toronto: ECW Press. p. 64-65. ISBN 978-1770902244.
   2. ... that NWA promoter Bill Watts claimed he secretly hired Grizzly Smith, then employed as booker for International Championship Wrestling, to sabotage ICW shows? Source: Watts, Bill; Williams, Scott (2006). The Cowboy and the Cross: The Bill Watts Story. Toronto: ECW Press. p. 131. ISBN 1-55022-708-4.
2. ... that International Championship Wrestling was the birthplace of The Fabulous Freebirds? Source: Shoemaker, David (2014). The Squared Circle: Life, Death, and Professional Wrestling. Penguin. p. 86 87. ISBN 978-1592408818.
3. ... Kamala (pictured), Percy Pringle and The Fabulous Freebirds got their first “big break” in International Championship Wrestling? Source: Pringle, Percy (June 30, 2002). "Mid-South: Leroy McGuirk & Bill Watts questions". WrestlingClassics.com. Archived from the original on November 17, 2020.
4. ... that in 1977, International Championship Wrestling stars The Great Mephisto and Grizzly Smith were arrested for brawling in the streets of downtown Jackson, Mississippi? Source: Taff, Carol (December 17, 1977). "City Becomes Arena For Wrestling". Clarion-Ledger. p. 4.

173.162.220.17 (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)