Talk:Murder of George Floyd

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Autopsy - not murdered

Facts Trump your feelings. The Autopsy shows ZERO damage to his trachea. He died of a drug overdose. 4X the legal limit in his system. The drugs killed him, not Derek. That’s a fact. 96.8.253.190 (talk) 15:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

As noted elsewhere, the role of the autopsy is to determine a cause of death from a medical standpoint. Murder is a legal conclusion, which is determined by a jury in a court of law. The jury reviewed the evidence and determined Mr. Floyd was murdered, full stop- so we call it a murder. You can disagree with this conclusion all you wish, and Mr. Chauvin can use all legal means to overturn his conviction(SCOTUS just turned him down) but that doesn't change what we call this case. The results of the autopsies are stated in this article.

And if Mr. Floyd was on drugs, perhaps Mr. Chauvin should not have restrained him by kneeling on his neck, which is clearly visible in video. 331dot (talk) 15:34, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Chauvin had no way of knowing Floyd had just swallowed a lethal dose of fentanyl (you can see it in his mouth on bodycam though), and the restraint Chauvin used--the "maximal restraint technique"--appeared on bodycam to be done exactly as Chauvin was trained; you can see it demonstrated in his training manual here. When I have time I'll find some reliable sources and expand the article to list the plethora of exculpating exhibits ruled inadmissible at trial. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Please don't engage in WP:SYNTH. Use your time more wisely than that. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

How Chauvin was trained? "Just following orders" didn't work as a defense at Nuremberg, it shouldn't in Minnesota either. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

That's not what Godwin's law is. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I invoked Nazis in an internet discussion. That's exactly what Godwin's law is. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Chauvin lost in court. He then lost in appeals court. SCOTUS then rejected his appeal. The next step in appeals process above the US Supreme Court is not Wikipedia. We do not argue cases. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

AS you are not a court, you do not get to overturn the court's verdict (which is what we go by). Slatersteven (talk) 17:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: What we "go by" is reliable sources, and an ability to pass WP:VNOT. Court rulings, and as the IP above has stated, "feelings", are not part of Wikipedia's guidelines. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Actually if a court finds someone guilty of murder that would be usable. It may not pass wp:n but it would pass wp:primary. As this is not about wp:n but wp:v, a court finding is usable. Slatersteven (talk) 17:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

You are free to disagree with the conclusion of the jury that heard all the legally permitted evidence, and Chauvin is free to appeal(he did and lost). You are even free to use your social media to promote that view. You aren't free to reargue the case here. 331dot (talk) 18:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

In fact, discussing whether or not a court case's outcome reflects reality is not infrequently done on WP; it is how we come to have articles like Reaction to the verdict in the O. J. Simpson criminal trial where editors add information about the very sorts of issues, reservations, alternative theories, public doubts, and so forth, that complicate cases like this. Simpson was, after all, acquitted of the double murder with which he was charged. So how can a WP article "reargue" his case, as it does? This is also how we get WP articles such as the one about Anthony Ray Hinton who was convicted of murder in 1985 and sentenced to death. Hinton appealed to the Alabama Appellate Court in 1988 who unanimously confirmed his conviction and sentence, and then he appealed to the Alabama State Supreme Court in 1989, who ruled likewise. Case-closed, right? Actually, no. After being on death row for 28 years, Hinton's case was reopened due to demonstrable uncertainty about his guilt, and he was eventually exonerated and released. So "rearguing the case" is par for the course when it is high-profile and there is a possibility of a verdict having been wrongly reached, whether a conviction or acquittal. Lest anyone argue that Hinton's case is irrelevant since he was legally exonerated, there are many examples of those who have been demonstrably wrongly convicted yet never exonerated, such as Timothy Evans who, despite it having been proved that he was not in fact guilty, the state has refused to overturn his conviction. Indeed, WP articles are frequently works-in-progress which reflect ongoing changes even after acquittals or convictions and subsequent exonerations or prosecutions, such as with Trials of Kirstin Lobato who was convicted of first-degree murder in 2002 and sentenced to 40-100 years in prison, then was retried in 2006 for the same crime and this time convicted of voluntary manslaughter and sentenced to 13-45 years, and in 2017 was ordered released, but about whom there are still questions as to whether or not she indeed murdered the victim. So claiming that a conviction (or acquittal) permanently closes the books on a case as far as WP is concerned, is absolutely false. Bricology (talk) 00:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)