Talk:Taylor Swift

Singer-songwriter AND Musician

I observed that in the infobox about occupations list, it states that she is a Singer-Songwriter and a Musician. Are these two roles not synonymous? Additionally, I have noticed that it is uncommon for Singer-Songwriters and Musicians to be listed separately on the encyclopedia pages of her colleagues, as they are typically referred to simply as Singer-Songwriters. ShakiraFandom (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Personal life missing

Why is this section missing? What time it is (talk) 05:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I think intro is promo/written from fan point of view

A subject of widespread public interest with a vast fanbase, she has influenced the music industry, popular culture, and politics through her songwriting, artistry, entrepreneurship, and advocacy.

Lot of celebrities has widespread public interest and vast fanbase - whats special here? And many artists has influenced pop culture.

It should be something like Swift's career began in country music, but she has since transitioned into pop and alternative genres. She is also known for her narrative songwriting, which often centers on her personal life

Gsgdd (talk) 09:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The editor here also omits her career trajectory as an opening act for several other artists' concert tours in the early of her career, a common format inclusion on a musician's Wikipedia. It is clear that this page is managed by fans. WP:NOTFANWEBSITE

see: page.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taylor_Swift&diff=prev&oldid=1228060222 ShakiraFandom (talk) 08:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yep. they are hardcore fans. see the last editor User:Ippantekina - they only make edits to taylor swift pages Gsgdd (talk) 08:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@Gsgdd: see this discussion. Ippantekina (talk) 08:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Id wait for others to chime in. @Ippantekina i need their feedback on concerns i raised about fan point of view Gsgdd (talk) 08:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@ShakiraFandom: please read WP:OTHERSTUFF. Ippantekina (talk) 08:25, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

There is Swifties. Cwater1 (talk) 13:56, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I believe it would be helpful to implement some of the OP's proposed changes, though I have no particular suggestion on how the lead should appear. That aside, I agree with the inclusion of this tag, as I believe there are other issues there. Some examples:

• Putting "songwriting" and "artistry" next to each other seems excessive. Do we need both terms?
• What makes one a "professional" songwriter? It's not a sport where there's a commonly accepted difference between amateur and pro.
• Are "chart-topping" and "number-one" necessary (or appropriate) descriptions? Isn't it similar to saying "award-winning"?
• With WP:RECENTISM in mind, are her directorial projects more noteworthy than the titles of films in which she's acted? She was in one the worst and commercially unsuccessful films of all time. How is that less noteworthy than a concert film?
• The lead says Swift is the second most streamed artist on Spotify. The body says she is the most streamed. Which is it? Why is Spotify in the lead at all?
• How are the American Music Awards, Billboard Music Awards, and MTV Video Music Awards due here, especially the lattermost? I believe the Brit Awards would be more appropriate to insert than any of these three.

KyleJoan^talk 06:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for agreeing with me. I also concur with your points. We should begin cleaning up the article. There are many Swifties here who are often aggressive in reverting changes, as they view it from a fan’s perspective. I haven't read body - who knows how much fan point of view is there. Since this is a featured article, it’s all the more reason to elevate it to higher standards. I’m tagging @FrB.TG as well. Gsgdd (talk) 06:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Gsgdd: While waiting for others' responses towards a consensus, please refrain from reverting edits repeatedly (WP:3RR) and assume good faith, since your comment regarding how "aggressive" Swifties are is practically bad faith.

@KyleJoan: I agree that the lead is marred with recentism and there needs to be adjustments, but I disagree with your disregard for Spotify (which is arguably the most-discussed metric for song streams/artists' relevance in the streaming age), number-one songs (charts matter, no?), and awards like the AMAs or VMAs (why not?) Ippantekina (talk) 07:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Ippantekina, please do not revert the tag without discussion. We need to reach a consensus, particularly from uninvolved editors. The tag will help ensure broader review from the wider wiki community, not just from the original authors. Previously, you have reverted my other good faith edits as well. I felt such reverts were aggressive, and calling it out is not bad faith Gsgdd (talk) 08:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Read up on WP:BRD and how WP:CONSENSUS is built, Gsgdd. Repeated edit-warring and violation of WP:3RR will only get you blocked. Krimuk2.0 (talk) 09:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The issue with Spotify as a metric is its numbers fluctuate too often. A featured article is expected to be stable to some extent, and yet, even with all the editing that goes on here, there's still not an agreement between the lead and body about whether Swift is the most streamed or second-most streamed. That's a major policy issue

The description "number-one" is too ambiguous. Where does a song need to reach number one for it to be appropriate? A specific country? A specific genre chart?

A fan-voted award is almost never more important in the way sources document it compared to industry-voted ones. I guarantee you that there is more source coverage of Swift's appearances at the VMAs than that of her VMA wins. KyleJoan^talk 10:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

What about something like "one of the most-streamed artists on Spotify"? I still think Spotify is an important metric for a 21st-century musician, despite its (understandably) volatile nature. We can change "number-one songs" to "commercially successful hits" but then that could be POV. I'm thinking of reorganising the lead of this article in the style of other singer-songwriter FAs like Bob Dylan or Paul McCartney if that's a good idea. Ippantekina (talk) 11:03, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Both of those changes would be improvements–I'd prefer "song" or "single" over "hit" for neutrality. I don't believe there's any POV issue with "commercially successful" since that description is easily demonstrable as due. A major reconstruction appears to be necessary. Too many parts read as excessive, a glaring one being the different album musical styles, which sound like inappropriate attempts to illustrate Swift's versatility when the body includes nothing that suggests some of these claims (e.g., Lover being "eclectic"). Why not keep it simple and write that Swift originally established herself as a country artist, pivoted to pop starting with Red, fully became a pop artist with 1989, and delved into the indie genres with Folklore and Evermore? KyleJoan^talk 13:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking of the intro paragraph like this:

"Taylor Alison Swift (born December 13, 1989) is an American singer-songwriter. She has explored musical styles across country, pop, rock, and folk. Her personal songwriting with details from real-life relationships and experiences has made her a major figure in popular culture and earned her a devoted fanbase."

Ippantekina (talk) 15:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

This is the same theme - devoted fanbase, major figure etc.... still fan point of view. I understand you are keen to show off devoted fanbase wiki. But think more neutral. Every artist has devoted fanbase. Swifties are not superior to other fanbase Gsgdd (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

As a drive-by comment after seeing the DRN post, some thoughts on the article: The first paragraph... isn't a complete paragraph. It's a weird construction that doesn't organically grow out of the opening sentence and appears to be phrased the way it is to embed somewhat easter-eggy links to sub articles. I think part of the feel of it coming off as weirdly fannish is that there's no elaboration on this, and it makes much more sense discussed with her wider commercial success later on in the article. The Beatles is structured similarly, so there are articles that try and give a quick capsule overview before diving more into the subject in the subsequent lead paragraphs, but I think manages to explain the importance of the subject better and has much more concrete examples of influence and importance actually demonstrated. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

As another drive-by comment: per Wikipedia:Record charts, single-retailer charts are generally unsuitable. Spotify absolutely qualifies as this, and it should probably be removed. Toa Nidhiki05 20:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

How about something like this?

Taylor Alison Swift (born December 13, 1989) is an American singer-songwriter. She is one of the world's best-selling artists, with 200 million records sold worldwide, as well as the highest-grossing female touring act and the first billionaire with music as the main source of income. Known for her detailed narrative songwriting, Swift's music career has made her a subject of widespread public interest and an influential figure in popular culture. Outside of music, she has directed and acted in films.

Swift signed with Big Machine Records in 2005 and released her self-titled debut album the following year, rising to prominence as a country pop singer. With her second album, titled Fearless (2008), and its singles "Love Story" and "You Belong with Me", Swift achieved crossover success on country and pop radio formats and mainstream fame. She experimented with different genres on Speak Now (2010) and Red (2012) and reached the top of the Billboard Hot 100 chart with the latter's lead single, "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together". The synth-pop album 1989 (2014), which contained the songs "Shake It Off", "Blank Space", and "Bad Blood", marked Swift's departure from country music and recalibration of her image and sound to pop. Continued media scrutiny inspired her next album, Reputation (2017), and the song "Look What You Made Me Do".

After signing with Republic Records in 2018, Swift released Lover (2019), Midnights (2022), and The Tortured Poets Department (2024); explored indie folk styles on the 2020 albums Folklore and Evermore; and re-recorded four albums, subtitled (Taylor's Version), after a masters ownership dispute with her prior label. These albums spawned the commercially successful songs "Cruel Summer", "Cardigan", "Willow", "All Too Well", "Anti-Hero", "Is It Over Now?", and "Fortnight". Her Eras Tour (2023–2024) and its accompanying concert film are the highest-grossing tour and concert film of all time.

Swift's accolades include 14 Grammy Awards and a Primetime Emmy Award; she has won the Grammy Award for Album of the Year, the MTV Video Music Award for Video of the Year, and the IFPI Global Recording Artist of the Year a record four times each. Seven of her albums have opened with over one million sales in a week. Time magazine's Person of the Year in 2023, Swift has appeared on lists such as Rolling Stone's "100 Greatest Songwriters of All Time", Billboard's "Greatest of All Time Artists", and Forbes' "World's 100 Most Powerful Women".

KyleJoan^talk 01:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC) copyedited on 01:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I would argue against `Swift's music career has made her a subject of widespread public interest and an influential figure in popular culture.` in first paragraph. Popularity is subjective and changing. If you look at Forbes Celebrity 100 - she never been no. 1. I would argue some political leaders more popular than Swift or have more public interest.

Outside of music, she has directed and acted in films. this is not her strong suit - id skip this Gsgdd (talk) 01:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Swift's popularity 2006–present is heavily documented in sources. Any historical perspective would include it as one of her defining qualities. Any aversion to suggesting she's very famous and influential would create a separate NPOV issue. Swift's standing in comparison to other public figures is irrelevant, as that would make it inappropriate to mention one's fame or influence because somebody else might be more famous or influential. KyleJoan^talk 01:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

See i still think `widespread public interest` is not something to mention in opening paragraph. Imagine, people adding it to every celebrity and popular people. It can be mentioned in the body or later in intro. I prefer to keep opening para - something unique and most interesting thing about the artist. Is being famous the most interest thing about Swift? That's all i have to say about it. Do as you please Gsgdd (talk) 02:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Swifties exist as an article. Swift's fan base is definitely over-the-top. I'm not sure why do you keep insisting on removing an obvious fact that she is arguably the most popular artist right now lol. Ippantekina (talk) 02:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Even the Beatles don't have Beatlemania in the first paragraph of the lead. Toa Nidhiki05 05:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Toa Nidhiki05: 1) "Beatlemania" is not in the first paragraph of the lead but it does exist in the lead, so are you arguing against its inclusion or notability?, and 2) "They are regarded as the most influential band of all time and were integral to the development of 1960s counterculture and the recognition of popular music as an art form," with a link to Cultural impact of the Beatles. Ippantekina (talk) 07:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it's undue for the lead here, yes. Toa Nidhiki05 17:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

(Noting that I arrived here after seeing the thread Gsgdd created at WP:NPOVN at 3:08 2 July 2024)

KyleJoan, I like your lead quite a lot and would support it being applied in the article. I think it's a big improvement on the current version that trails off without completing the sentence while conveying almost nothing about Swift's notability. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 04:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

"Lots of celebrities have attracted widespread public interest and a vast fanbase - what's special here? And many artists have influenced pop culture."

Most artists don't have full-fledged lengthy articles dedicated to their fanbase, influence, political impact, and public interest like Swift does. That fact alone is an argument as to why they should be linked. ItsMarkWbu (talk) 12:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Like i said before - im ok it being included in other than opening paragraph. Her `fanbase` is not what defines Taylor swift. Opening paragraph should be about taylor swift. Not about her fans. It should highlight her major achievements Gsgdd (talk) 12:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree but I'd not mention the films that she directed or acted it. Not the thing that makes Swift notable anyways. Some of my other suggestions:

"Known for her detailed narrative songwriting, Swift's music career has made her a subject of widespread public interest and an influential figure in popular culture" → "Known for her narrative songwriting inspired by her personal life and experiences, Swift's music career has made her one of the most influential popular culture figures of the 21st century and earned her a devoted fanbase."

We might as well not need to mention that many songs, maybe leave out the current hits ("Fortnight", "Willow" etc.) to leave room for discussing her musical evolutions/experimentations. Ippantekina (talk) 07:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Why did you implement your own version without a consensus when you never even proposed it? It introduced new issues, such as the undue weight placed on the reception toward Folklore and Evermore. KyleJoan^talk 08:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

also "autobiographical songwriting with details from personal life and experiences" this is no good. autobiographical already means its from personal experiences. please revert it Gsgdd (talk) 09:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Gsgdd. I'm going to open an RfC to have users cast !votes based on different versions of the lead section. Can you write your own version of (or point to which version of) the second, third, and fourth paragraphs you would like to see with your proposed lead paragraph? KyleJoan^talk 09:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@KyleJoan Hay, For into paragraph this is my proposal.

Taylor Alison Swift (born December 13, 1989) is an American singer-songwriter. She is one of the world’s best-selling artists, with 200 million records sold worldwide. Additionally, she is the highest-grossing female touring act and the first billionaire with music as the main source of income. Known for her narrative songwriting, which often centers on her personal life, Swift is an influential figure in popular culture.

For second, third and fourth - i'm okay with your earlier proposed version. Gsgdd (talk) 09:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for writing it up. To everyone voting - goal is to choose version that align with neural point of view and not fan point of view. Review previous talk for details Gsgdd (talk) 10:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Since attempt to fix article intro is being sabotaged by User:FrB.TG - i'm placing this POV lead tag. User:Ippantekina who mostly edits taylor swift page is a FAN - and i believe has conflict of interest. Both these users have engaged in disruptive edits and reverts in the past - please see talk/page history for details Gsgdd (talk) 11:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Refrain from making personal attacks and accusations or calling others disruptive when you have engaged in an edit-war with multiple editors over the last few days. All I did was restore the slight tweak made by Ippantekina to their own proposed lead before voting had begun. It's not my fault if that little change caused the removal of RfC. FrB.TG (talk) 11:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I have not reverted more than 3 edits in 24hrs - and issue is only with you two who have engaged in disruptive edits/reverts. It can be proven should you choose to take it up to admin. If not stay out of it and do not revert any more of edits on this matter from users Gsgdd (talk) 12:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Gsgdd: Are you assuming being a fan of a music artist would constitute a conflict of interest? Lol what kind of accusation is this. Ippantekina (talk) 13:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

When you edit 99% of time on Taylor swift pages - it begs the question if you have some kind of affiliation or relationship with Taylor swift - which is conflict of interest. Or maybe you are just a hardcore fan - who cant see neutral point of view. Gsgdd (talk) 13:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Lmaooooo read WP:AGF please. Also please read WP:POINT which describes your behaviors at this point. Ippantekina (talk) 13:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Drive by comment here from DRN; and I've noticed that the fan POV has been an issue with this article for a very long time. I wouldn't say that there was a specific editor, moreso that as she got more in popularity, the amount of fan POV edits about her have skyrocketed. For example, why are there two completely different articles about the impact of her entire 15+ year career verses the impact of a single (albeit major milestone) tour? Why is cultural impact and public image completely different articles with no possibility for a merge? What exactly is so relevant about her politics (which she was infamously silent on for a while) that demands a seperate article that cannot be merged into a general "Impact of Taylor Swift"? Is all of the article content so notable for inclusion that they cannot be in a more concise page? I believe that as Taylor becomes more popular and beloved by the general public, we will receive an excess of Swift-related information; I think Gsgdd is right and I believe most of his points. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 19:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

That's a different conversation. Do you have constructive opinions for rewriting the lead -- the main point here? Ippantekina (talk) 02:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

DRN mentioned fan POV as a major source of issue for the quality of the writing in this article, with fans continuing to make unsupported WP:PEACOCK statements about Ms. Swift. Considering your replies to other editors on this page, and your history as a Swift-only editor, I can't say that the DRN claim is inaccurate. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 21:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Break

Taylor Alison Swift (born December 13, 1989) is an American singer-songwriter. Known for her autobiographical songwriting, Swift has become one of the most influential figures in popular culture and generated extensive public interest. She is the highest-grossing female touring act, and the first billionaire with music as the main source of income.

Born in Pennsylvania, Swift moved to Nashville in 2004 and signed a contract with Big Machine Records the following year to pursue a career in country music. She rose to prominence as a country pop singer with her self-titled debut album (2006) and Fearless (2008), whose singles "Teardrops on My Guitar", "Love Story", and "You Belong with Me" were successful crossover hits on both country and pop radio formats. Speak Now (2010) and Red (2012) experimented with different genres, and the synth-pop album 1989 (2014) recalibrated Swift's artistic identity from country to pop. Her growing fame was accompanied by increasing media scrutiny, which inspired Reputation (2017). Many singles were commercially successful, such as "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together", "I Knew You Were Trouble", "Shake It Off", "Blank Space", and "Bad Blood", and "Look What You Made Me Do".

After signing with Republic Records in 2018, Swift released Lover (2019) and explored indie folk on the 2020 albums Folklore and Evermore, which featured more introspective and nuanced lyricism. She returned to pop on Midnights (2022) and The Tortured Poets Department (2024), which successively broke chart records worldwide. Following a dispute with Big Machine in 2019 over the ownership of her past album's master recordings, she has re-recorded four studio albums subtitled (Taylor's Version), released in 2021–2023. Her chart success continued with the singles "Cruel Summer", "Cardigan", "Willow", "All Too Well (10 Minute Version)", "Anti-Hero", "Is It Over Now?", and "Fortnight". Her Eras Tour (2023–2024) and its accompanying concert film are the highest-grossing tour and concert film of all time.

One of the best-selling music artists, Swift has sold over 200 million records worldwide. Her accolades include 14 Grammy Awards and a Primetime Emmy Award. She has won the Grammy Award for Album of the Year, the MTV Video Music Award for Video of the Year, and the IFPI Global Recording Artist of the Year a record four times each. Seven of her albums opened with over one million copies sold in a week in the United States. Time magazine's Person of the Year in 2023, Swift has appeared on lists such as Rolling Stone's "100 Greatest Songwriters of All Time", Billboard's "Greatest of All Time Artists", and Forbes' "World's 100 Most Powerful Women".

Ippantekina, I really like your proposed lead. I have made a few tweaks here and there. For example, "Known for her autobiographical songwriting, Swift's music career has made her one of the.." - the way this is phrased it sounds like "Swift's music career" is "known for her autobiographical songwriting". I like this version better since it specifies the genres of Midnights and TTPD instead of just "she released these albums". I don't like the idea of writing about her film career in the lead paragraph, which you have avoided here. So all in all, this proposed lead should be implemented IMO. FrB.TG (talk) 12:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused. Your endorsement here means this proposal has consensus to be implemented? Does that mean that my proposal, with two users' support, had consensus to be implemented as well? KyleJoan^talk 12:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

No, I was merely stating why I think this lead is better and should be implemented. That doesn't mean consensus has been reached to implement it. FrB.TG (talk) 12:34, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but "this proposed lead can be implemented IMO" sounds closer to "you can go implement it" than "FWIW, I support it". Thanks for clarifying. KyleJoan^talk 12:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed some bits to avoid undue weightage (the critical reaction to Folklore/Evermore). Btw are we still deciding this on number of votes? Ippantekina (talk) 13:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

This was never being decided on number of "votes" (thats not how wikipedia works). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I'm asking because there was previously a vote-based RfC, which has been removed. Ippantekina (talk) 16:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't vote based, it was WP:CONSENSUS based. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Check the talk page history. Ippantekina (talk) 17:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Notes

US or United States?

Why are the US/UK country abbreviations changed to United States/United Kingdom? ScarletViolet (talk • contribs) 23:52, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The two abbreviations should be used in all instances. Readers don't require that much spoonfeeding. KyleJoan^talk 01:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I changed it to "United States" to keep consistent with other Swift album/song FAs so that's more of a personal preference, but I don't see why it shouldn't be that way. Ippantekina (talk) 02:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Abbreviations#Countries_and_multinational_unions, which suggests you shouldn't have done that. - SchroCat (talk) 15:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@SchroCat: The guide you cited literally says: "Using United States instead of an acronym is often better formal writing style, and is an opportunity for commonality." Ippantekina (talk) 16:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It's sometimes preferable, but in an article this long, bloating it further and so often is poor. Given you changed it recently and people picked up on it to query it, I'm not sure there is a consensus for the longer form repeated endlessly here. Maybe just let the conversation proceed without edit warring to what you've already admitted is your personal preference? - SchroCat (talk) 16:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I did explain that doing so is to keep it consistent with other Taylor Swift song/album FAs that spell out "United States". And how do my edits constitute an "edit warring" when there is no outright objection but rather queries to which I explained--also considering this is not a contentious issue, at least based on the responses here thus far? Ippantekina (talk) 16:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Plus, the CMT links you edited in your revert are dead. Would you mind fixing that please? Ippantekina (talk) 16:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't edit any links. It looks like there was a conflict which overwrote the bot. I won't change them back again: the bot will revisit shortly to change it back. - SchroCat (talk) 16:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

RfC about {{POV lead}}

Should the article include the {{POV lead}} maintenance tag until the discussion about the lead section reaches a consensus? KyleJoan^talk 00:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• No. It should not have a tag unless the discussion comes to a consensus that there is a serious POV problem in the lead. Until then, it should not be tagged. This is a WP:FA, which means that numerous experienced editors agreed that it should be promoted to FA, including its Lead section. If there are specific issues with the lead, like any WP:PEACOCK, or if you think that some awards are more WP:NOTEWORTHY than others, that should be easy to fix without a tag. Discussion and consensus of specific issues is the way forward. I would start a heading for each specific objection to the Lead and get a consensus on that discrete issue, fix it, and move on to the next one. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  Do you believe the current lead section looks comparable to how it did seven years ago during the article's FA promotion? KyleJoan^talk 07:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• No per Ssilvers. Having such a tag while claiming that this article is one of the best Wikipedia has to offer is contradictory and very damaging to Wikipedia's reputation. Let's focus on addressing said issues than preoccupying with a tag. And the lead has improved since Nosferattus's bold edit. I have made further changes here that address issues raised in the afforementioned section. If there's any disagreement over them, we can obviously discuss it further. FrB.TG (talk) 08:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)