Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not

Expanding "plot summaries" to other in-universe databases

I believe the section on "plot summaries" should be reworded to include all in-universe topics. A fiction article needs to describe more than the in-universe aspects; however, plot summaries are only one part of the picture. Lists of items and weapons (that do not already violate gameguide) should also fall into this category. As a general interest encyclopedia, we need to explain how the items and weapons were created, as well as how they were received in (counter)culture. Otherwise, it's just a database of items. — Deckiller 22:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps something like...

Fictional databases: Like plot summaries, Wikipedia articles on fictional terms or items should offer real-world context, and not be merely a list of common terms or items. Examples and descriptions of terms and items are appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.

— Deckiller 22:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that those are all excellent things for fictional articles to contain, but your suggestions have nothing to do with "What Wikipedia is not". They're suggestions for how to make existing articles better. Try Wikipedia:Featured list criteria instead. --tjstrf talk 22:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

So it's fine for Wikipedia to contain numerous sprawling lists of items and other in-universe terms for every notable fiction topic? If that's a concept that should be addressed on our featured content criteria, we might as well remove the plot summaries section altogether and allow sole-plot summaries as articles, since it addresses the same thing (or, rather, one aspect of the concept). Reworded. — Deckiller 00:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm seeing what Deckiller is getting at. I think we can expand/word the plot summaries point to cover these other in-universe (but not exactly "plot") issues. -- Ned Scott 05:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I came here looking for a definition of 'plot summary'. I find my position is that I do not like 'plot summary' of a length which simply repeats the story, I think this pointless, well before the point where i would judge it becomes an issue of copyright. However, I do support re-telling parts of a story where the objective is to illustrate and explain the story. Particularly, presenting the story information in a different way to that in which it was created, to illustrate a character's motivation, explain why certain things happened within the logic of the plot. Now, illustrating a character can be difficult within wiki without external sources already backing up the point being made, but I judge it is proper to draw together episodes from a plot which even handedly represent the character as portrayed in the larger work. I do not consider such a description as a 'plot summary', yet it has become apparent that others do, and argue for deletion of material on that ground. It seems to me that this hampers the encyclopedia. So, does anyone have a definition of what a plot summary is, and is not? Sandpiper 22:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

A partial or complete account of what happens in a work of fiction (or series of works), no matter if it is retold in the order and form it happens in the original works or in a different form (like a timeline, or the account of what happens to one character only). A timeline that illustrates the order in which episodes / books / ..., like the Buffyverse chronology, may be acceptable (if adequately sourced to indicate that this chronology is of sufficient importance) since it describes an out-of-universe aspect: in which order should the works be read / seen: a timeline that just describes a number of actions and events from a fictional universe or history is a plot summary. User:Fram 05:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, well there is the difficulty. If the definition of plot sumary extends that far, then the policy in effect says wiki is not:literary criticism. Which I have to say I would oppose. What exactly is the purpose of this point in the policy, anyway? Sandpiper 09:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Since when is "literary criticism" equal to "an account of what happens in a work of fiction"? Literary criticism is what some readers / critics think about the story, the writing, the characters, the intertextualism, or whatever they want to discuss. It is not a summary of the novel, it is not written from an in-universe perspective. I don't see how you can equate the two, and it looks to me like a strawman argument. Please see some featured articles like The_Old_Man_and_the_Sea or A Tale of a Tub to notice the distinction between the (short, as it should be) plot summary, and the other sections, including "literary significance and criticism" and other out-of-universe sections. This is the kind of article we need to have on major or minor works of fiction, not the endless in-universe trivia and plot retellings we currently have (mostly for some popular or cult series). The pupose of this point in the policy is that Wikipedia is a tertiary source, relaying what secondary sources have written about primary subjects: we paraphrase and condense the out-of-universe info about and discussion of fiction (to restrict myself to articles about fiction here), and avoid (or reduce as much as possible) the in-universe aspects. It is not the purpose of Wikipedia to be a form of "Condensed books", the only purpose of plot summaries should be to help uninformed readers understand the out-of-universe articles about the fictional universe, not to describe all aspects, characters, events, ... from a particular piece of fiction.Fram 12:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I had a quick look at 'old man and the sea', and notice that it contains a large section 'symbolism of the character', which seems to be exactly what I am talking about. It contains no external references to justify the body of the text, except one broad introductory quote from the author. Otherwise it relies upon quotes from the primary source, the book, and frankly expresses quite a lot of opinions about the symbolism. I spend quite a lot of time on HP pages. In that situation there is one article discussing what would be the the first section here, essentially background, but for the series as a whole. Another discussing specific background and a short synopsis for each of the seven books. Another for each major character (there are some 2500 pages of HP by now, so quite a lot of page time for many characters). Separate pages for different concepts. As a whole these may make up something like the article you have presented as an example, but much bigger, and far too big to be one single article. So the upshot is individual articles which contain material similar to the section in your example which explains an individual character, by reference almost solely to the primary sources. Thus your example justifies their existence, but technically they are separate articles liable to fall foul of your previous arguments. How do you square this contradiction? It seems to me that frequently people overlook the fact that while analysis of a topic ought to be rounded, the nature of wiki articles means that it has to be subdivided into logical sections in separate articles. Sandpiper 08:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite follow you. There is a section in the old man and the sea which is badly sourced or unsourced, so it should get tagged or removed. I notice that this section was not included at the time this became a featured article[1]. But how does this section justify separate articles consisting of nothing but plot summary? And if they were good, straightforward plot summaries, I wouldn't object so much, but the articles people try to defend with the "part of a larger topic" sentence are often riddled with original research and are reworkings of the story from a particular viewpoint, making it incomprehensible for someone who hasn't read at least part of the series (or seen some of the movies, played some of the games, ...). A plot summary (whether in an article or a a separate article) should be kept only if it is useful to the understanding of the article(s) about the work of fiction, as that is its only purpose. When you read a summary of Harry Potter, you should be able to understand it on its own, and more importantly it should be a good help in understanding the articles about (aspects of) Hary Potter. But something like World of Greyhawk Timeline is incomprehensible and useless for everyone but the diehard fans, and does not help at all when reading an article like Greyhawk. To keep this anyway because it is sourced and because WP:NOT does not count when it is an aspect of a larger topic (well, any plot summary can be called an aspect of a larger topic if you want to take it too broad) is wrong. So perhaps we need to clarify / rewrite the "plot summary as an aspect of a larger topic) to make it more strict, so that it can't be misused as a blanket "keep" for all plot summaries. Otherwise we can create plot summary articles for all 5,000 or so episodes of Neighbours, since they would be an aapect of a larger topic as well. I don't think that is what Wikipedia wants or needs at all.Fram 09:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that your example of a good article is not quite what you thought? An example of wiki at work then, it has been 'improved'. Someone, or at least a few to judge by the history, feel that it has been improved by the addition of this extra section discussing the character (I dont remember the book, presumaby 'the old man'), unsourced except by reference to the book. I have noticed before articles given as examples which do not seem to support the argument being made, bit of a hazard here. I think your argument is essentially that information about stories, as a matter of principle, does not belong on wiki. I think I asked, somewhere above, but why?

As to the timeline of Greyhark. I have to say I know nothing about Greyhawk. However, I have from time to time read series of books which include their own timelines. An author setting novels in a created 'universe' may sometimes chart where books/characters fit into an extended spread of time. I find such things generally useful to an understanding of an extended story. Now, if readers find such things useful, I did so long before wiki was invented, why does wiki not agree? I thought the idea of wiki was to provide information to readers.

The point I was making is that while an ideal article about a book might contain various sections, one of which is the plot summary, and another might be a discussion of character 1, etc, in an extended topic this simply will not fit into one article. So it is inevitable that the article will be split and maybe plot ends up in one article, character 1 in another, and so on. Plot then stands at risk of being deleted. Character 1 may stand at risk of being deleted, since basically the article simply explains his biography and character as portrayed in the book. I'm afraid I do not see why he should so stand in jeopardy. I really don't see a reason for it except dislike of that kind of information. Sandpiper 20:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I still don't get your argument about the book, I think you are focusing to much on the one section that fits your argument and that was added after it was a FA. You also ignore the other example I gave. As for your points: a separate article about a character may well be deleted if the character is not notable. An article for Albus Dumbledore is no problem: an article about Professor Everard would be overkill. If a plot summary gets too big for an article, it can be split off. However, the unlimited creation of plot summaries is not automatically allowed by this exception, contrary to what some people seem to argue on AfD debates. A plot summary should only be as large as is needed for a basic understanding of the out-of-universe articles about the subject, and is not a goal in itself. If a timeline (to take that example) adds nothing significantly to the understanding of a work or a series of works compared to the "normal" plot summaries, then they are just overkill and then the WP:NOT for plot summaries becomes valid again. Plot summaries have to kept to a minimum, not a maximum. Fram 20:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

This answer seems to avoid what has now become my question: why do plot summaries need to be kept to a minimum? What is the justification for having this rule at all? It seems to me that something which might have once been an obvious rule, that wiki should not simply re-tell story books, has instruction crept into a policy of reducing such information to an absolute minimum. I persist in discussing single characters since it seems to me that this is a specific role which wiki should cover. Yes, a short synopsis of the whole plot for a main article, but also a specific subset of plot as it relates for a chacter. I'm afraid that I do not see why an article which did its best in the absence of known secondary sources discussing the character, should not use the primary source to illustrate that character. Nor should examples from the primary text be left out as a matter of choice, even when secondary sources are available. Others here would regard an article based solely on the primary source as a deleteable plot summary, and it specifically should not be. What would justify such an exclusion from wiki? Furthermore, I regard re-organisation of plot material to illustrate the point in question as highly desireable and encyclopedic, yet others seems to argue that this should not happen. Your case in point, timelines: A timeline rearranges information to better present it. As such, it is to be welcomed. Timelines for books are equally as useful as timelines for kings and queens.

(As to Everard, I had to stop and think who he was. One reason I have noticed which specifically suggests the creation of very short articles is cataloging. A catalog is an index, but unless there is an article on that subject there can be no entry.) Sandpiper 23:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Why should we have an article on a character for which there are no secondary sources? If there are no secondary sources, then the character is non notable, no matter how notable the work of fiction is he or she or it appears in. We don't document everything that exists, but only that what is notable as indicated by verifiable reliable secondary sources. WP:ATT: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources wherever possible. " and WP:FICTION: "Plot summaries should be kept reasonably short, as the point of Wikipedia is to describe the works, not simply summarize them." So we should only have the minimum of plot summaries needed to understand an article we may have on any character or work of fiction, and not add plot summaries just because they may somehow for someone be useful, even though there are no secondary sources to back this up. As to why we have to keep them to a minimum: because we are a tertiary source, describing those things that other reliable secondary sources have deemed noteworthy: we are not a fan wiki (genre Wookieepedia) to describe every aspect of a work of fiction in every detail, no matter if there are secondary sources or not. Wikipedia is not paper, but that does not mean that it doesn't have a quite clear line of what it aims to be and what is not its intention. Plot summaries, descriptions of primary sources, are not the goal of Wikipedia, but may be used sparingly as a means towards that goal where needed. Fram 05:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I fear you are arguing in circles. You are saying we have rule #6 against something because we also have rule #8 against something, missing the point that perhaps both should go. What you say about souces is untrue, as witness your own quote. The policy recommends the use of secondary sources wherever possible. It does not ban work based upon primary sources when secondary ones are missing, and certainly does not ban the use of primary sources additionally. An obvious case in point for referencing a primary source is when discussing a work of fiction. I have no problem with 'describing the work, not simply summarising it'. However, this can be done by quoting or paraphrasing a primary text. 'Fred is tall, has blue eyes and is king of Tahiti. He is prone to fits of temper.' So. describing the character by use of the primary source. Assuming Fred has some reasonably important part in the book, such description is reasonable, and I have to say expected by readers interested in the subject. And before you say, 'but I am not intetrested in fancruft', perhaps stop and think who is going to read this article? Virtually every hit will be from someone who is interested in fancruft. These very same people are the ones who have given wiki such a high hit rate and made it important. Notebility of a work obviously imputes noteability to the main characters which make up that work. How does it make sense to claim that a famous work consisting entirely of a converstaion between two characters could be noteable, yet the characters not so? Admittedly, it is likely there would be something written about the characters, but this would not necessarily be helpfull in explaining them in an article. Lots of rave reviews in the newspaper might not explain the work very well at all, despite it having vast popularity and noteability. Sandpiper 07:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that, as part of a broader article, a longish (500 word) plot summary can be appropriate. For an example, see Ulysses (novel). In general, if a piece of fiction is notable enough to have an article, there ought to be enough other material available that the article will consist of more than just a plot summary. So I don't see it as an issue of WP:NOT. CMummert · talk 13:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

That's why it says: "A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." An article can contain a plot summary as a background, a basic explanation of what the article discusses: an article shouldn't just (or mostly) be a plot summary though. Fram 14:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm referring to things like Recurring weapons and items from The Legend of Zelda series and Minor Harry Potter beasts. — Deckiller 09:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I still generally agree, but I'm not sure how clear we could get the wording on WP:NOT. Maybe what we should do is expand Wikipedia:Notability (fiction), and link to that from here? -- Ned Scott 09:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
    • That might be the best way to handle it. Right now, it seems WP:FICT is too lenient on allowing large lists of fictional things. — Deckiller 09:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Wait, my actual suggestion above hasn't really been addressed. Does anyone have a problem with its inclusion (or something similar?). — Deckiller 05:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• It's been 2 and a half weeks; adding for now, although I think two of us agree that it can be merged into the plot summary number Then, we can expand WP:FICT and link. — Deckiller 12:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Example categories of what not to delete

Concerning this section of the article:

• WP:NOT#DIRECTORY

This sentence below was removed with the edit summary, "revert. I don't think the addition of those 2 examples added enough to the readers' understanding to justify expanding a page that's already too large to easily read."

See: Category:Software comparisons and Category:Technology-related lists.

Here is the diff showing where I added the sentence.

Various editors had to suffer through 3 unnecessary AFD deletion reviews of this article: Comparison of wiki farms. See the links to the deletion reviews in the "article milestones" template at the top of the talk page: Talk:Comparison of wiki farms. The last deletion review ended up with a decision to keep the article.

My addition of the sentence in question is to prevent further problems in the future. See the last deletion review to understand why that single sentence will solve the problem:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of wiki farms (2nd_nomination) --Timeshifter 15:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

An excerpt from the current policy article says

Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List. Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference. Merged groups of small articles based on a core topic are certainly permitted; see List of locations in Spira for an example.

I want to add one sentence:

Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List. Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference. See: Category:Software comparisons and Category:Technology-related lists. Merged groups of small articles based on a core topic are certainly permitted; see List of locations in Spira for an example.

Of course the added sentence would not be in bold text. --Timeshifter 10:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I found a better sentence to add: "This site search, and this one, pull up thousands of examples of lists and comparison tables."--Timeshifter 04:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Lists of victims of various killings/tragedies etc.

Following a query on my talk page I thought I'd come here to check on this. Although WP:NOT#MEMORIAL covers articles created about victims of such things, does it also apply to the inclusion of lists naming people in articles about the incidents themselves? For example, the Omagh bombing article does not include a list of victims (an article created containing the names was nominated and deleted here, and the content was therefore decided not to be worthy of inclusion in the article - see Talk:Omagh bombing) but other articles on incidents including the Columbine High School massacre and the Kent State shootings do. Is there a policy on this or is it simply the case that they should be included if they add substantial content to the article, and left out otherwise? Cheers. QmunkE 12:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion it's probably a question of space and size whether or not to include a complete list of victims. If the number of victims is small enough to reasonably be included in the article about the incident, then it seems acceptable to include that data in the article itself. On the other hand, if you're talking about a bombing or such where a large number of people died then it's probably better to include that list as a data set in Wikisource, which is the project intended to house freely available reference data. I don't think a list of victims actually needs to be an article per se because it's not actually discussing anything in an encyclopedic way. But linking to it within Wikisource from the main article would provide a way for readers who actually want to see the list of names to still see it. Dugwiki 15:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I can think of a few articles where the names of the victims are listed: the Manchester FC airplane crash comes to mind. As Dugwiki said, it's mostly an issue of space, because the relevance of the victims to the incident is indisputable. I'd place an arbitrary limit between 30 and 50 on the length of such a list in an article. Anything longer than than detracts from the continuity of an article and should be linked to offwiki if possible, or some other solution should be found. YechielMan 01:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this solution; 30ish is a good limit without getting too indiscriminate, and we can link to other resources for larger lists. (It might be stretching it, but maybe Wikisource would be a suitable home for these lists, since they are "source documents" of a sort? Admittedly I'm not familiar enough with Wikisource to know for sure.) Krimpet (talk/review) 03:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I was involved in several discussions about this issue when I was working on some articles about IRA bombings last year. I believe that a list of those killed is quite important, interesting and encyclopaedic, and should always be included if possible. WP is not paper after all, and the names of the dead are relevant information. However, where the list would be too long and would consume the article, the general intention seems to be to create a seperate page with them on. At the Omagh bombing page, mentioned earlier, the consensus was to move the list to a subpage of the article talk where those interested could still view it without it consuming the article itself. This has also been used on a number of other articles, as well as similar ideas such as creating a page in the articles hitory and linking to it as an external jump in the articles main page.--Jackyd101 23:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah well, don't be too surprised if some of the "delete 'em all" faction that's been busy proposing AfDs on every list of victims of terrorist or violent acts heads your way. In the past two or three days, they've stared AfDs on List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre, List of victims of the Columbine High School massacre, and List of Charles Whitman's victims (Charles Whitman was the 1960s University of Texas clocktower sniper). The last two are articles of some long standing. They've also been going after any and all articles about individuals on the Virginia Tech massacre list regardless of their notability independent of the Virginia Tech massacre. All of this in the name of WP:NOT -- they seem to feel a victim list can be nothing other ever than a "memorial." Which I think is a misreading of what the policy is about. --Yksin 06:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone point me towards where the original consensus was formed for Wikipeida is not a memorial? There seems to be wildly varying interpretations of what this policy means. Some folks think that it only applies to individual bio pages, others think it applies to lists of people who died in notable events on standalone pages, and still others think that it means that such lists shouldn't even exist within the context of an article about a notable event that led to the deaths. I would just like to understand the ultimate goal of this policy so that I can apply it correctly. My feeling is that, while an event like the Virginia Tech shootings or other notable events does not confer individual notability on the individuals killed, they are notable as a group and therefore, at the very least, inclusion in the article about the event is merited. I am less certain about breaking out such a list into a sub-page, though I don't really understand why it would be inappropriate to create, if length of the original article became an issue.Chunky Rice 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It applies to nothing except to memorials. Our article on George Washington and Ronald Reagan and Nostradamus are about dead people. That does not make them memorials. We have articles on Cho Seung-hui and Charles Whitman and Thích Quảng Đức - these are not only dead people but they are notable primarily for the way their lives ended. That does not make those articles memorials.

It is a memorial is if it eulogizing people who are not at all notable. Just because my grandfather dies and his obituary appears in 2 or 3 newspapers that does not by itself justify an artile on my grand-father. This is the type of thing we are trying to prevent with the NOT:Memorial guideline.

On the other hand, there is no problem with having an article on a person or persons who happened to gain fame in the manner of their death. Johntex\^talk 19:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

While that's true, if a person isn't notable beyond the manner of their death, and particularly if there's already an article covering the manner of their death, we probably don't need a separate article for the person. --Minderbinder 19:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If it is one person, probably not, but a list of all the victims is certainly reasonable if the main article is long and if there is sufficient information to make the list a worthwhile article. Johntex\^talk 20:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Karrmann's new Statistic's bullet point?

I saw Karmann added a new bullet point talking about restricting statistics to infoboxes. (He placed it in WP:NOT#IINFO, but I moved it to the "Not a directory" section since the directory section talks about lists of loosely related facts. Seemed like a more appropriate section.)

However, it doesn't look like this Statistics point was discussed at all prior to adding it to the policy. Since this isn't a trivial change to the policy, I thought it might be prudent to see what you all think of his addition. Is there consensus for it, or does it need to be changed/removed? Personally I haven't really gotten my head around it enough to say yet whether I agree with having it in policy or not so I'm curious to see what you guys think. Dugwiki 19:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the "infoboxes" sentence but couldn't disagree with the basic principle of the edit. Good catch to move it to the right section, though. Rossami (talk) 19:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I agree with the broad premise that an article shouldn't just be a string of datapoints. It should contain at least some encyclopedic text explanation that puts the data in context. If all you have is a large set of numbers, then Wikisource seems like a better place to put that data. After all, that's what Wikisource is supposed to be - a place that has freely available data that editors can use for reference when citing or writing about a topic. In fact, maybe Wikisource should be mentioned as an alternative as well. Dugwiki 19:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty of modifying the text to advise that articles have explanatory text and to mention Wikisource as above. Feel free to modify or revert or delete. Dugwiki 20:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Karrman moved the section back to WP:NOT#IINFO from the Directory section. Me, I think the other section is more appropriate, but since it's a pretty minor matter and just a question of personal taste I can live with it either way. The main thing is making sure people are generally ok with the language. Dugwiki 15:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with this premise. Precisely because Long and sprawling lists of statistics may be confusing to readers and reduce the readibility and neatness of our articles., then, that information should be split out to its own article. Stand-alone articles like United States presidential election, 2004, in Alabama allow Wikipedia to present detail on events that would significantly clutter a single article about the whole election. Neier 22:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

But note that the article United States presidential election, 2004, in Alabama you mentioned could also be transwikied, for example, to Wikisource instead of being represented as an "encyclopedia style article" on Wikipedia. So it's not a question of whether the information in that article is useful or not. It's a question of whether "articles" that are just statistical tables would be better served appearing in Wikisource than here on Wikipedia (since the main purpose of Wikisource is to act as a source of viable references for Wiki authors). Dugwiki 17:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

An analogy would be that dictionary definitions for words are obviously useful, but an article which is solely a dictionary definitionn is better served by being in Wiktionary than as an "encyclopedia article" on Wikipedia. Dugwiki 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Should be renamed...

This page should be renamed from What Wikipedia is not to Wikipedia should not be. The majority of the things listed on this page of what Wikipedia is not happens every day, which goes against the title of this page. 70.118.89.142 02:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

In what way, might I ask? bibliomaniac15 04:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Ironically, I once observed the same point as 70... on a blog post - there are blog pages and whatnot in Wikipedia, and I take it upon myself to find them and list them for deletion. And yes, Wikipedia is an indiscriminate collection of information, in the sense that sublime articles on philosophy coexist with the latest episode from The Simpsons. But as for the name, it is proscriptive, not descriptive, i.e. Wikipedia is not a place where indiscriminate information (as defined in that section) is allowed. If it were descriptive, it wouldn't be policy. Its existence as policy, by definition, mandates us to shape the wiki to conform with the definitions laid out here. YechielMan 01:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It is mandated, not "preferable"

Hi.

I saw this:

"In the unusual situation where the opinions of a single individual are important enough to discuss, it is preferable to let other people write about them."

Wrong. It is mandated that others must have written about them before they can be included in Wikipedia. See WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:RS, WP:SPS etc. In the absence of independent sources (ie. those written by people other than the one(s) holding the opinion in question), notability can't even be established. mike4ty4 00:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This sentence is referring to the person himself writing about it on Wikipedia, not so much to the sources. Still, the wording needs to be stronger than "preferable". —Centrx→talk • 02:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a product listing service

Could we also say that Wikipedia is also not a source for listing products, unless they are especially noteworthy? Take a look at Category:Quest Software, for example. — Loadmaster 22:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I would say no to that, since Notability is a guideline, not policy. As a guideline it is not assumed to have demonstrated the same level of editorial consensus as a policy and therefore doesn't quite have the same level of enforcability. So while guidelines should refer to existing policies in their text, policies should almost never refer to guidelines for enforcement. Dugwiki 15:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought

Is removing comments that violate this policy from the talk page allowed?--Sefringle 00:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Talk pages are discussion pages, not articles, and therefore don't require references or citations. In fact, virtually everything on talk pages is going to be editorial opinion, questions and arguments back and forth. For example, I don't need to show that my reply to you is based on something previously published. So no, comments shouldn't be removed from talk pages based on being "original research". Dugwiki 15:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion: What we are also not

Wikipedia is not the be-all and end-all of the internet

Wikipedia is not the internet

I bring these two up because of something I noticed: a tendency of internet users to pretty much assume that the internet is entirely composed off of a particular favorite site. My sister in law favors Yahoo, in this regard, for example, and figures that if you don't have a Yahoo email address, you probably don't exist on the 'net. Expand on this - in many AfD arguments, people will not only assume that this is a great place to dump data for hosting sake, are surprised when it lands in AfD, and will defend it to no end with all of the arguments found in WP:AADD as their rationale to keep the articles. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 20:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia and religeous commands

Can we conclude from this official policy, that wikipedia is not a place to create pages with titles like "Islamic commands" where to list all Islamic religous commands, and things like that? (I don't mean to offend moslims here, this is just a fictional example.)huji—TALK 07:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Try Ten Commandments for a non-fictional example. Uncle G 15:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the example. My question is, shouldn't things like that be placed on Wikisource or Wikibooks? huji—TALK 21:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
    • If the article contains only the actual text, then it should go on Wikisource. However, in the case of Ten Commandments, that article contains quite a bit of historical background and academic analysis and thus is a fairly broad encyclopedic treatment of the commandments. So that article belongs here in Wikipedia. Similarly if Qur'an contained only the text of the Qu'ran then it should be in Wikisource or Wikibooks. But since the article contains a lot of historical and analytical information about the Qu'ran it belongs in Wikipedia as an encyclopedic treatment. Dugwiki 22:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
      • What if it is not the exact text, but not also including historical and other such information? Like page only full of several statements about Islamic laws about what to eat and how to pray, which more or less resembles a list of them, rather than giving information about them?huji—TALK 22:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• I agree with Dugwiki and Uncle G above. A mere copy of a religious text belongs on wikisource. An article with sourced analysis of what religious commands are or are not in a particular system, such as Mitzvah, cleary belongs. An article such as a hypothetical List of Mitzvot might belong if each entry were properly sourced, since that would be drawn from multiple sources and would present attributed vierws on which items belonged in and which out, but might be marginal. DES ^(talk) 22:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

So you think, except for the very fundumental and basic religious commands (like the Decalogue), the information does not belong to wikipedia, and can be moved to wikisource if this is a complete copy? What if this is neither a complete copy nor a set of fundumentals? For example, what if you face an article about "Islamic commands about how to hunt animals"? Do you request it to be deleted?huji—TALK 10:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a shock site

I think we need to follow "Wikipedia is not censored" with its counterpoint. Controversial images should only be included when they serve an encyclopedic purpose. We've all seen the prudes complaining that we're corrupting the youth and need to remove the paintings of naked ladies, but the other side of the coin is the people who put controversial images in an article where they don't really serve any informative purpose, and then defend them aggressively with a big stupid fight about how Wikipedia isn't censored and we shouldn't cater to the prudish Americans and blah blah. Wikipedia is not a mission for evangelizing the unwashed masses to our superior Western mores. Our purpose is not to proselytize to the world and convert their primitive minds to our free, uninhibited ways. It's to provide information in a neutral manner. When shocking or controversial images are important to the topic of an article, by all means include them, but don't be controversial just for the sake of being controversial. — Omegatron 02:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• I agree, but doesn't the text of "wikipedia is not censored" already say that such inappropriate content can/will/should be removed? — brighterorange (talk) 17:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I think that it's best to just clarify WP:NOT#CENSORED, to make it clear that offensive content should not be included just for the sake of it. -Amarkov moo! 18:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
    • While I agree that wikiopedia is not a shock site, and images should not be added just for shock value, I think that adding this as a separate heading would simply encourage those who do want to censor "inappropriate" or "indecent" images. If an image has value, even limited value, in an article it should most often remain. The text already says "While obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site) is usually removed immediately, some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the article about pornography) and provided they do not violate any of our existing policies" and I think this makes the point well enough, wihtout any further clarification. I would be oppsoed to any significant expansion of this, and more opposed to making it a separate sub-heading. DES ^(talk) 15:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I concur with DES. Note that language that says offensive content may be inappropriate can and will be used against our articles on e.g. sex positions. >Radiant< 09:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• I concur with Omegatron. We need to make it more clear that shocking or overly-titalating images should not be included just simply because we can include them. There is no reason, for example, to include photos of sexual positions when less titilating line drawings give plenty of information. Johntex\^talk 18:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Looking to add a sentence or two to clarify WP:MEMORIAL

In thinking about the recent afd Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre I realized that it might be helpful to add a sentence or two to the WP:MEMORIAL section to clarify the difference between an individual memorial or obituary and summary information about victims of tragedies.

WP:MEMORIAL currently reads "Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered." This clearly excludes obituary and memorial for individuals who are not otherwise somehow notable.

However, where confusion comes up is whether or how this affects victim lists or other summary information about the victims of a tragedy that involves multiple deaths. My opinion, which seemed to be in the majority in the afd I mentioned above, is that the list of victims of a tragedy is an important part of the historical background of the event. In an informational way it performs a similar function to the cast list of a film or television series by providing very basic information on everyone involved. Therefore I think it's important to have that information easily available in some form to people interested in reading about the event that caused the deaths.

The main criteria is probably the size of the list and of the event's article. If the list of names can be comfortably included within the article, then that is the best option. If the list is fairly large, but not so large as to be unmanagable, and there is interesting or useful auxilliary information about the victims, then I think a list article supplementing the main article is the best option. Finally, if the list is particularly long, such as with an event that involves hundreds or thousands of deaths or more, then the list as a whole should probably be placed instead as an openly available source document at Wikisource that articles about the event can interlink to for reference.

So all that being said, I'd like to suggest the following rewording of WP:MEMORIAL -

"Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of individual encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered. Information on dead individuals should be objective, free of overly emotional opinion, and from independently published reliable sources. In the special case of victims of notable tragedies, the victims' names should normally appear, space permitting, within the event's article. For tragic events with larger numbers of victims which will not fit comfortably within the space of the main article, the list of victims should be split off either onto Wikisource as a reference page or, if there is sufficient encyclopedic treatment of the list entries, as a list article supplementing the main article."

So what do you guys think? Feel free to agree or disagree or critique my proposed wording. Thanks! Dugwiki 17:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I like it, mostly. I might change the term "tragedy" to the less pov "incident" or "event." Just so we don't get into disputes over what qualifies as a tragedy (I can definitely see that happening). I might add that biographical information regarding the deceased should be limited to that which is relevant to the incident.Chunky Rice 18:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a great idea and I would like to see Chunky Rice's suggestion to be included also. Johntex\^talk 18:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I pretty much agree that the information should be relevant to the event. I would, though, be open to the suggestion that very brief information that isn't directly relevant to the event but that gives insight into the cross section of people involved would be ok. For instance, I'm ok with a list including names, occupations and ages of victims to give the reader a little bit of a sense of who was involved beyond just a name itself, even if the occupation and age aren't directly relevant to the event itself (that's assuming this information is all previously published). Detailed exposition on the victims' lives isn't normally necessary, though. Dugwiki 19:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I mean, if their occupation had something to do with why they were there, then sure. Take the recent Virginia Tech list. It's relevant for us to know there who were professors and who were students. But if one of the students had a late night fast-food shift, do we really need to include that? I'm not too hung up on this point, I guess, but I think it's important to draw as sharp a line as possible, to make judgment calls easier.Chunky Rice 19:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's why I said I'm open to the suggestion of it. The acceptability of occupational info would probably depend on the context of the specific article and list. Dugwiki 22:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't tell if we're on the same page or not. My feeling is that bio information should only be included if it is relevant to the event. A certain base level of info is inherently relevant. Name, age, how/where they died, etc. Some things, like occupation, may or may not be, depending on the incident. But without commenting on specifics like occupation, hobbies, etc., we can draw a line in the sand at relevance. That's my opinion, anyway.Chunky Rice 23:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think we're on the same page. The main grey area would be determining when specific information is "relevant" to studying an event, and that would have to be hashed out case by case. Dugwiki 20:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Should Wikipedia be used as a bibliographical reference or footnote in students' reports?

This is a somewhat long comment, but I simply have to point out something that has bothered me for a few years now. I did not find a comment like this yet, but if I am repeating a previous comment please forgive me...

I think Wikipedia is a great forum for sharing informatation and providing a starting point for students to further investigate subjects on their own. However, I would like to make the case that Wikipedia is not suitable to be used as a bibliographical reference or footnote in essays, papers, articles, etc., under most circumstances. I am starting to see a lot of footnotes and or bibliographical references to Wikipedia in my students' reports, and I have instructed my students that citing Wikipedia as a reference is not a good practice for a couple of reasons.

First, since the content of a given article can change at any time, simply citing a Wikipedia article will not allow the reader (i.e. in this case, I am the reader) to refer back to the original material being cited. Afterall, citations aren't simply used to show that you did some actual reading and didn't just pull your material out of thin air. Citations are actually intended to allow the reader to go back to your referenced material to investigate for themselves. As a scientist, I often do this myself when reading research reports or articles. One remedy to this is to cite the date and time of the Wiki article being cited, but this seems quite cumbersome. If a book or journal article is referenced within a Wiki article, they should go to that original source if they want to reference something.

Second, the content of a given article has only been reviewed by the people who happen to have read the article. These people may or may not be well-informed on the subject, and there is no guarantee that a well-informed person has had a chance to correct any errors whenever you just happen to be looking at the article. For the most part, the articles I've seen on Wikipedia are pretty well-written, and articles in my area of expertise seem more-or-less accurate, but not always. We are probably all aware that some articles require serious editing, or some "vandal" has come along and intentionally inserted inaccurate information. Sometimes articles are simply deleted by the Wikipedia staff because they are very problematic for some reason.

On the positive side, I do encourage my students to read Wikipedia articles in subject areas that they are familiar with or have recently researched, so that they may contribute to the discussion or help to edit of the article. This is a good excercise in having a peaceful intellectual debate about a topic they have researched in the past. Furthermore, the international aspect of the user communtity is a great way to remind students that it's a big (or small) world.

One final comment/story: A colleague of mine is taking a graduate course in biogeochemistry at a "well-reputed" institution, and one of the instructors was listing important numbers that they should all know. One of these was the total volume of the Earth's oceans. My colleague noted to a classmate later that the number didn't look right, and indeed their text book listed a number several orders of magnitude greater. Other text books also suggested the instructor's number was way off. When my colleague searched the internet, the only citation that came up with a number close to what the professor used was Wikipedia - in fact it was the exact same number. So obviously the instructor did not even use her own text book to get this number - and obviously no one had corrected the number on the Wikipedia page yet. So I'd also like to suggest that university professors should at least refer to their own text books when providing information to students. But please feel free to contribute or edit content on Wikipedia :).

Thanks for "listening"

Beth Rogers 23:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Beth Rogers

Note that it is possible, with the "cite this page" link that is on every article, to get a link that will always link to the exact version that was read at a given time, and that is what should be provided in a citation. See Citing Wikipedia for more details. Your second point is correct, but errors can and do happen in any publication. Dis you see the report in Science that a detailed expert review of a selection of articles from Wikipedia and from the Encyclopedia Britannica found essentially identical error rates (differences not statistically significant). No single source should ever be uncritically copied on a fact, that is how errors sometimes propagate from textbook to text book (and I can cite sources on this, if you are interested), over generations. Whether you wish to allow students in your classes to cite wikiepedia is of course up to you. Wikipedia doesn't recommend doing or not doing so, but it does recommend verifying references. DES ^(talk) 00:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's not under WP:NOT, but under Wikipedia's own policies, Wikipedia is not a reliable source.Chunky Rice 00:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a tertiary source, like all other non-specialized encyclopedias, and was not really meant to be a super duper hyped up multi-use resource. But where in WP:NOT does it say that Wikipedia isn't a credible source? bibliomaniac15 00:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you need to read my entry again, because I specifically said that it doesn't say it in WP:NOT. But WP:ATT and WP:RS make it clear that Wikipedia, like any source based on user added content, is not reliable.Chunky Rice 04:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo says in this BusinessWeek article:

Do you think students and researchers should cite Wikipedia?

No, I don't think people should cite it, and I don't think people should cite Britannica, either -- the error rate there isn't very good. People shouldn't be citing encyclopedias in the first place. Wikipedia and other encyclopedias should be solid enough to give good, solid background information to inform your studies for a deeper level. And really, it's more reliable to read Wikipedia for background than to read random Web pages on the Internet.

Well-written Wikipedia articles will always include a list of references, though, so finding reliable sources to cite one's work should in theory not be much of a problem. Krimpet (talk) 05:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Contributor's name in image title: self-promotion?

Is there a policy on image-naming conventions that would settle whether it's permissible to include the name of the author and contributor of an image in the image's filename? The author/contributor in question is also a Wikipedia editor who uses his real name as his userid, and includes this name in the image's filename, so that the filename for a picture of a Corvette, for example, would be Corvette_by_[User's]_[Name].jpg .

I AGF, but also wonder if the purpose might not be self-promotion: a Google search on the editor's real name returns hits for the image files on Wikipedia precisely because the author has included his name in the image's filename. I note that in several articles the editor has without explanation substituted his own work for perfectly adequate images. Doing so has not appreciably improved the articles, but it has, of course, replaced the file with one bearing the editor's name and increased his visibility on the web.

In fact, on other websites the user advertises his work as a photographer by inviting people to view his work at Wikipedia -- and to visit his Wikipedia userpage, which raises the possibility that the userpage itself may be being used for self-promotion, contrary to WP:NOT#USER.

I have hunted around without much success for relevant policies, and while I suspect WP:NOT#SOAP is probably applicable, I'm wondering if there are other more precisely on point. Is there a policy on claiming authorship that might be applicable? --Rrburke^(talk) 17:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

• Replacing other people's images with images that aren't any better (though there can be a lot of reason why an image is better: license and resolution being common subtle ones) is a bit rude, in my opinion. But I can't see any reason why naming images with the author name is wrong; several licenses that we use require attribution, in fact, so there is a strong sense in which the picture taker is connected to the image itself. It may be the case that contributing to wikipedia improves this user's reputation in the community at large, but I think that is a positive side effect and one of the reasons that some people spend so much time contributing to Wikipedia. (I will say that putting the author's name inside the image or in the caption when it appears on a page is bad style, and I often remove this. The proper place for attribution is the image page.) — brighterorange (talk) 17:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

• "The proper place for attribution is the image page"

Which is why it seems to me inappropriate that, as happens in this case, a user's name should appear on the occasion of every mouse-hover over the images, when the filename gets displayed as the alt-text (or any time a user views the edit history, since the user also inserts his authorship claim in the edit summaries). The Information template works just fine for ensuring attribution. Naming all your images after yourself, talking your photographic work up around the web and then inviting people to go have a look at your WP userpage and image contributions I imagine having a different purpose.

I note from this AfD discussion that bureaucrats have recently begun taking an especially dim view of new users wanting "their usernames to be their real names so that their promo page has high google rankings." In my view, that's quite possibly what's going on here -- his real name is also his username. The user also incorporates the URL of his WP userpage into his various contributions elsewhere on the web, presumably with the goal of driving traffic to what an uncharitable person could mistake for file storage for his photographic portfolio. --Rrburke^(talk) 23:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Please note that in This pump thread a number of people thoguht this was perfectly acceptable. Note also that a user can specify one of the CC licenses which mandates attribution in a specifeid form, which could include requireing "photo by X" in the caption. This is not an un-free license, and is IMO perfectly appropriate. DES ^(talk) 23:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I apologize for multiposting. Now that I read the policy, I realize I should have posted once and then linked from other pages if necessary. This wasn't an attempt at canvassing: I just didn't know the best place to ask the question. --Rrburke^(talk) 00:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem, jsut wanted the comemtns in the othe thread noted. DES ^(talk) 00:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• Note that {{Cc-by-2.0}} is on the list of acceptabel free licenses at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Free licenses, but it includes a requirement that "You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor". The same is true for {{Cc-by-2.5}} which actually has a parameter to specify how the attribution should be done. This is also true of {{Cc-by-sa}}, {{cc-by-sa-2.0}}, and {{cc-by-sa-2.5-in}}. Any of these could be used with a specifiaction that 'This image may only be used if the text 'Photo by John Doe' appears immedaitely adjacent to the image." Indeed it could also require a link to the creator's web site. Given this, I don't think that quibbling over file names is worth while -- it will only incline more image creators to sue this sort of license, which would mandate a credit in the caption. DES ^(talk) 00:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but surely those conditions can't trump policy: if the condition the user places on the use of the photograph is at variance with policy -- like insisting that the image can only be used if the user's commercial website address is displayed in the caption -- then surely all that means is that the image is not suitable for use on Wikipedia. --Rrburke^(talk) 01:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

And where is the policy that says that such conditions make the image unsuitable? The fact that all those licenses are listed in the official and recently reviewed list of free content licenses says to me that such conditions do not violate policy. Also, where is it specified that "The proper place for attribution is the image page". That is our default, but nothing about it is graven in stone, and many (indeed most) publications include photographer credits in a caption, perhaps in small type. If someone is disruptively replacing images with other images so as to self-promote, that is disruption and can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. But a legit content provider, who is willing to provide freely reusable content but wants attribution to be clear and to be sure to follow the image is, it seems to me, the sort of thing we should encourage. DES ^(talk) 01:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• And where is the policy that says that such conditions make the image unsuitable?

For example, I think the condition that a contributor's image must be accompanied by a display of the web address of his business would make his image unsuitable per WP:NOT#SOAP, and that WP:LOGO -- specifically, "avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote something" -- would tend to make an image that is usable only on condition that the contributor's business's logo also appears unsuitable. Admin Brighterorange asserts above that he "often" removes images containing the user's name either on the image or in the caption, and I assume he's doing so in conformity with an existing policy. I don't presume to put words in his mouth, but I imagine it's WP:NOT#SOAP.

Most publications do indeed display caption-credits for photographers. But these same publications also display bylines and allow writers to claim credit for authorship, something nobody at Wikipedia gets to do, except in pretty limited ways. It seems to me the practices of commercial publications are of limited usefulness in trying to sort out how such matters ought to be handled on Wikipedia. --Rrburke^(talk) 02:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, print publications don't allow the reader to click on something to see its history! We have that option on a Wiki and so we should use it to hide information that doesn't add to the article. I can't justify this with a specific policy, but we clearly don't allow signing of text within an article (see WP:SIG) so the extension to image captions seems straightforward. (And BTW, I agree with DES that some extreme circumstances might legally require a caption in or below the image, but that would be a strong reason to prefer another image.) — brighterorange (talk) 13:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I will agree that if someone is upl;oading images purely to promote himself (or herself) to to promote or enhance his/her reputation as a photogrtapher (or as a whatever) that goes counter to WP:SOAP and those images should be disfavored at least. i also agree that when soemoen is repalcing perfectly good images with ones that are different but no better that server to promote their creatior, that strongly implies improper self-promotion. I do thank that when an uplaoded image is under a free license, and clearly improves the project (is a useful image we didn't have before, or repalces a non-free iamge with an equally good or better free one, or replaces a poor image with a good one), but the contributior also wants clear attribution, this is not a problem. i ahve seen lots of very good iamges tha tinclude the contributor's name as part of the file name. For example, i was constructing a CD for off-line use of butterfly related images and articles from Wikipedia. There are lots of such images, and some of the better ones included the creator's name in the file name, partly to create distinctive and unique names among many similarly named iamges. These creators did not appaer to be professional photogs, and at any rate did not seem to be engagign in significant self-promotion. If soemoen has ads all over the the web saying "Look what great pics I take! See them on Wikipedia!" that is a problem. If soemoen quietly takes a useful picture, say a better shot of a particular species of animal or plant than we have avaialbable ans uplaoads "Genus-species-JohnDoe.jpg" I don't really see a problem. in short this needs to be handled case by case, and promotion can't be inferred solely from the fiel name, IMO. DES ^(talk) 14:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the user in this case has indeed replaced several perfectly adequate images with new ones created by him that include his name, and he doesn't offer a rationale for the substitution: the edit summary consists only of the name of the image and, well, his own name. In most cases I don't see any improvement or any benefit to Wikipedia from the substitutions. In some cases the articles didn't previously have images, but usually they did, and there doesn't appear to my untrained eye to have been anything wrong with them. And it's not as if he has replaced the existing ones with freer ones either, as use of his images is conditional on attribution. I'd have to check this, but I think that in least one case he replaced a free image with his conditionally-licensed one.

Unlike the creators you mention, this one does indeed list his profession as photographer (and writer). I agree with you that "if someone has ads all over the the web saying 'Look what great pics I take! See them on Wikipedia!' that is a problem." That's precisely what this user does: a presumably self-authored blurb on him on the web, which lists his profession as photographer and writer, reads: "He has created a large body of photographic images...These images are found on Wikipedia..." The blurb then provides a link to his Wikipedia userpage, which itself includes a section entitled "These pages have my photographs". --Rrburke^(talk) 14:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. a potentially relevant policy I knew I had read somewhere but couldn't find is WP:OWN#Do not sign what you do not own. --Rrburke^(talk) 16:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes i understood that from all the facts you cite, this particualr case does look like soapboxing, and measures hould be taken. My point is that we should not over-generalize from this and conclude either that all users who put thier user names in image file names are self-promoters, or that all uploaders who required attribution in the image caption are self-promoters and their images should be disfavored. In this case it looks like there is someone who is tryiong to use the project to promote himself. His edits to tht end can be reverted, and if he persists, he can be blocked for disruptiuon, and I'll be glad to help with that. But this was asked above as a general question, and it is the general answer that i've been concerned with. DES ^(talk) 16:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Why on earth are we fussing about filenames? If anything, having the photographer's name in the filename helps reusers figure out who to contact for details on reuse, something we regularly get questions about. There is no reason to discourage this that helps the project, and if someone has edited some policy to suggest that it shouldn't happen, that needs to be fixed. Jkelly 17:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose to me it depends on what the user's purpose is. If, as it appears to me to be in this case, it's one of a number of actions that together suggest the user is using (and advertising) his contributions and userpage to burnish his professional credentials and promote his work as a photographer, then I genuinely feel it violates at least the spirit of both WP:NOT#SOAP and WP:OWN#Do not sign what you do not own. I'll leave it to more experienced Wikipedians to decide whether my feeling is consistent with the way these policies are customarily applied, which is why I haven't reverted any of this editor's changes or approached him with my concerns without first asking more experienced contributors what they think. --Rrburke^(talk) 20:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we should be creating more, not less, reasons for people to donate their images to wikipedia. If all they are getting for their valuable time and their sometimes expensive equipment is attribution, I am all for putting that attribution on the image, and in the filename. When the images are then used by others outside wikipedia, which they oftentimes are, then the attribution is clear. I want to encourage people to put the attribution on the image itself. In small print of course. That way, no matter who ends up using it, the photographer gets credit. Images, both free and copyrighted, are often taken by webmasters and blog writers and used on their web pages and blogs. Photographers are often keenly aware of this, and hate having their images ripped off without so much as a "thank you" or an attribution. We are talking about free art here in many cases. The authors of that art deserve credit. --Timeshifter 19:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

But by the same token we could probably attract more professional writers and experts in given subject areas to make contributions Wikipedia, and thereby greatly improve the quality of large numbers of articles, if we allowed contributors to sign their work and claim authorship of it. But nobody gets to do that and no one's proposing it -- presumably because it's rather at odds with the wiki model. I tend to think that, as far as is practicable, a common set of principles ought to apply, mutatis mutandis, to both text contributions and media contributions alike. The principles I chiefly have in mind are free content and collaborative writing and editing.

If artists want credit for their art, their are plenty avenues open to them to get it, like getting their work displayed in commercial publications or galleries, just as professional writers can submit their work to newspapers, magazines or publishing houses that offer bylines and authorship credits if obtaining credit for their work is essential to them. I don't feel Wikipedia is a place you go if your purpose is to receive credit for your work: it's just a different kind of animal. --Rrburke^(talk) 20:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand the GFDL and other free licenses. Almost all of them mandate, or permit the licensor optionally to mandate, proper attribution (which is simply another name for credit) for work freely contributed. In the Open Source community (out of which both the GPL and the GFDL came) it is very common for an entire work or program to be primaility the work of one person, and for that person to be very promonently credited. There is nothing un-wiki or un-free about wantign proper credit, or even about expecting that contributing to a free project such as Wikipedia can help to bost one's own reputation. There is a good deal wrong if edits that do not help the project (much less hurt it) arfe made apparenlty for the purpose of self-promotion. But when valuable positive contributions are made by people who also want proper and public credit for diong so, that is IMO a very good thing, not a bad one. Thsi is NOT about the details of one particualr case -- I presuem from the commetns abov that in thsi case the editor is not acting properly -- but about the general principle. DES ^(talk) 21:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Question.

A user continuously suggests that Bob Dylan be removed from the List of notable converts to Christianity. He either does not understand or simply chooses to ignore the fact that the criterion for inclusion on the list is highlighted in the introductory paragraph:

"The following is a list of people who have at one time converted to Christianity.

Important note: This list is known to include some individuals whose initial conversion experience may have since lapsed or reverted. Inclusion on this list is not necessarily an assertion that an individual continued to practice as a Christian throughout his life after his conversion."

The list is simply a record of notable conversions, not a listing for continued belief. Many people have continued in their faith, and some have surely lost interest or left the religion. The list notes such a change in a person's entry.

As we have 12 or so sources which say that Dylan did convert, 3 or so which explicitly say that he was baptized and describe the people and circumstances surrounding it (2 of which are widely-known, published sources), and since the opposing party has shown no sources which deny this conversion (nor have they shown sources for anything), the fact that he converted is no longer up for debate, by Wikipedia's standards.

However, this user consistently claims that including Dylan on the list violates WP:SOAPBOX. He continues to claim that we are using the article to insidiously proselytize by 'sneaking in' non-Christians. As I have said, despite being told the criterion for inclusion numerous times, the user continues to assume that one must currently be a Christian to be on this list.

Let's assume we can forget the fact that the article has, for quite some time before this argument initiated, included people who the article explicitly claimed 'have left Christianity'.

The user claims Dylan's inclusion on the list is an attempt to "endorse/advocate Christianity". We continuously explain the purpose of the list, and the criterion for inclusion- we include anyone whose conversion can be verified by reliable sources (the list needs work, and needs citations, but we're working on it). Also, the question remains- how can one be endorsing Christianity by showing someone who has left the faith? (Let's pretend that the other side of the argument will verify Dylan's return to Judaism with sources)

The list is simply a list. It is not a tool for proselytizing. It intends to show notable people who have converted to Christianity at some point in their lives. There is no deception- the intro paragraph makes the criterion clear and notes that not everyone on the list has continued in the faith, and the individual listings make it quite clear that the person listed later left the faith. This list is not being used to proselytize. It is being used as a reference hub.

It's also worth noting that the user constantly incorporates religion into the argument. Yes, the article is about religious conversion, but the user will continuously use the historical and theological relationship of Judaism and Christianity as a part of his argument. He continues to make it into a very personal issue, and makes it seem as if we are 'insulting Judaism'.

I will present a list of his quotes, for full understanding. I have not taken these statements out of context (although it should be noted that although several of these quotes came before published sources were added, and he therefore denied the veracity of the online sources, he has still expressed these same views, even now):

"All the disclaimers in the world do not counteract putting a Jew on a list of Christians."

(I noted the apparent bias here, and he stood behind this statement.)

"Christianity considers it a triumph to convert a Jew to Christianity. Judaism does not proselytize, but Christianity does."

"I don't think we should be pushing the untenable point of view that Christianity has won a victory over a Jew as concerns the world to come or any such nonsense (my opinion)."

"Dylan is a Jew. Stop pretending he converted to Christianity. That is advocacy."

The only person who continues to pretend in the light of sources is this user. He has offered zero sources to support his statements. Additionally, he ignores everything which is explained to him, and he continues in his argument. He appears to be biased in favor of Judaism, and his argument seems to be largely driven by personal belief. He feels that it is advocacy to have a list that considers only conversion, not continued belief. However, he is not seen complaining about the List of vegans article, which lists anyone who has ever committed to veganism, despite their current status. I doubt we'll see him on that talk page crying 'advocacy!' once this discussion is over. (And this is a list which I have mentioned to him several times.)

This user wants to remove a person who converted to Christianity from a list of people who have converted to Christianity. Who is violating WP:SOAPBOX?

Please share your comments on this. Those on my side of the fence are constantly accused of violating WP:SOAPBOX, and I for one am injecting no religious bias into this discussion. --C.Logan 19:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

If you were to change the title from "List of notable converts to Christianity."

to "List of notable people who have at some time converted to Christianity"

would not the problem go away? NB. This is not the first article I have seen where the name of the article does not seem to be in perfect harmony with the definition just below. DanielDemaret 14:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well actually, the above title was a compromise. The fact is, the list records conversions of notable people- likewise, notable conversions. The fact that Dylan may have later left the faith (which has not been proven by evidence, despite the opposing party saying things like "its clear" and "it's indisputable") does not remove the fact that he's a notable convert to Christianity. Being an entertainer, his change of music (he stopped playing pre-conversion tunes altogether), his stage speech proselytizing, his personal statements, the outrage of his fans and the panning of his new material by critics- this is a very notable period in the man's life. It faded, but a book can be written (and has, I believe; a documentary was made as well) about this period alone, all of which stemmed from his conversion.

Additionally, the title shouldn't get too complicated. List of vegans contains people who are and were once vegans, and nobody is complaining fervently about that. I believe that people should be able to read introductions in special articles so that they don't become confused about the contents.--C.Logan 20:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Crystal ball

Would it be OK to add that, with regard to future books, recordings, films, etc., the subject should have a definite (confirmed and verifiable) name, and be due for publication/release in the current year? There's been a number of additions of the form So-and-so's third album, or of albums to be released some time in 2008 (after other not-yet-released albums). Some articles are moved three or four times before their subjects are finally released.

These articles on future items are often real pains, being fought over by fans concerning their contents, nature, names, etc. I'd rather see a policy to the effect that we should only have articles on things that exist and events that have occurred; future things and events can be mentioned and discussed in other articles (such as articles on writers, actors, or singers). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 21:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

censorship

It seems that it is not true anymore that wikipedia is not censored. In particular the hex number [hex removed as unnecessary] is screened for. I don't know when/who/how this changed and I don't think it is a change for the better. --MarSch 14:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You might want to check out the official policy, WP:COPYVIO. It is not censorship, it's protecting copyright laws and preventing legal action from being brought against Wikipedia. dposse 16:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, in that case you won't mind if I paraphrase? Oh you do? Then it is not copyright. --MarSch 18:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I personally suggest you bring the matter up with WP:OFFICE somehow or other. With the demise of the general counsel, perhaps in one of the mailing lists? This is a complex legal issue. AFAIK we have not received a takedown notice yet. However it would probably be best to avoid receiving one unless the foundation indicates they feel any notice would be without merit and they would be willing to fight it (which I doubt, but who knows) as such I recommend the number be left out for now Nil Einne 20:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually I know see the page has alreayd been protected awaiting office action. I suggest you just leave it at that. If office rules unfavourably, then there's really nothing you can do. I highly doubt they will change their mind on a legal issue such as this one because of any editor backlash. Unless of course your happen to have say $10 million or more and you're willing to use it to help defend the foundation in any legal case Nil Einne 20:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Say, not to get too far off-topic, but I just noticed that user Wimt, a non-admin, just reverted someone else's text in this thread apparently without their permission. Now I can understand if an admin or higher-up deletes or alters text on an article talk page, but it seems a little less kosher for a non-admin to do it. I didn't un-revert the change, since it's possible an admin would agree with the deletion, but I just wanted to post this as a general thought on who should or shouldn't alter otherwise apparently good-faith text (ie not obvious vandalism). Dugwiki 22:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Whether it was a legitimate alteration depends on the individual statement modified it doesnt depend on whether the editor was an admin or not, you seem to be misunderstanding what admins are, they are not higherr up people, and it is either kosher or not to do it, it is never less kosher merely because the person doing it isnt an admin, SqueakBox 23:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

That would conform to my understanding, as well. If there's a violation of policy on the talk page, any editor can remove it. Now, whether or not this particular instance was a violation of policy, I'm not sure. I don't think so, but I don't really understand what the nature of the hex-code is.Chunky Rice 23:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The illegal numbers at illegal prime aren't being censored. Is the hd-dvd key number somehow more special than those? --MarSch 13:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For Chrystal ball

We should add to the chrystal ball section that the arguement "it has potential" should be invalid, because it hasn't happened yet.--Sefringle 06:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Social networking

Wikipedia is being abused, as if it were a social networking site like myspace. Many people have begun to use wikipedia as such, due to the fact that it is not blocked on institutional servers (e.g. schools). I've had issues with social networkers and harassment, recently. I would request that someone take this issue seriously. If this is allowed to continue, wikipedia's servers may be put at risk. These people are wasting bandwidth and server space, only to use wikipedia as if 'twere myspace. Please, someone, take this seriously! Respond to me on my talk page. There are numerous users who are using wikipedia as a social networking site, and this is clearly against policy WP:not#socialnet. Not to mention, a few of these people have been harassing me, as I've said. I want to keep this strictly encyclopedic, and being attacked by a couple of kids makes me want to quit wikipedia for good. Fuzzform 07:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any examples you can present? I'd be very amused to see what the kids construct to get around the school's block. --C.Logan 07:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

They register accounts and use userpages. See User:MER-C/Spam#Pages to watch, Template:Spamsearch#Wikipedia is not a free web host and User:Calton/Userfied pages to watch. MER-C 12:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Not a sales catalogue or price guide

See also: here and here.

It might seem unbelievable that people are putting product prices in Wikipedia, but see here. What part of WP:NOT covers this, and if nothing explicitly covers this, what is the best way to add something to reinforce the view that this is decidely not what Wikipedia is for? With the caveat that it is possible to discuss price wars, changing economic prices over decades of inflation, and such matters, in an encyclopedic fashion, but simply listings and comparisons of prices are not acceptable. Carcharoth 23:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed in the instances here. There can sometimes be value in the use of prices for comparisons, but not in the sales catalogue/price guide/bargain hunting sense. Flyguy649^talk_contribs 12:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I took a somewhat neutral stance on the latter of the two related discussions, but there is a lot of points being raised, and I would suggest reading those discussions. If WP:NOT changes, then my stance will too, but at this point I see no concrete evidence either way regarding the invlovement of policy, and it's slightly disturbing.--Clyde (talk) 15:52, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It strikes me as a thin end of the wedge' problem. How long before a dispute over whether motor vehicle prices are listed, and then how long until the dispute over whether it's the list price that's listed or the average drive away price. That will be followed by a request for the average resale value to be added. Wii and MS points are just another bit of cruft that will open the door to comparative cash prices for video games and then items other than video games, to be listed with a price. It needs stopping before it gets out of hand and becomes an indiscriminate collection of prices. - X201 08:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

In general prices are trivia. It may be worth stating in excessive cases (e.g. Black Lotus). >Radiant< 10:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That is a good example of an exception. A verifiable source reporting on a high price being paid for a collector's item (a rare trading card, a rare signed first edition book, a rare artwork, the world's most expensive diamond, and so on) is fine, especially as that is trading happening on the private market (trading between individuals). In the majority of these cases, a reliable news source will pick up on this and we can report what they say, and give a date. But just giving prices (without indicating a date) for bog-standard items that are purchased from a corporate organisation smack of advertising. Do we really want people to think that we are a review site where people come to read about computer games and then look at the prices and decide which one to buy? Carcharoth 20:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not yet convinced that including verifiable MSRP information in an article about a product isn't relevant to the article. It seems pretty likely to me, in fact, that an average person reading an article about a product would be curious as to the suggested retail price of the product. So assuming the information is verified and referenced, I have no problem with MSRPs appearing in the article (the best place probably being in the info-box synopsis on the side that also includes information about the product's company, original release date, etc). Dugwiki 17:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia shouldn't be price guide. There is websites on the internet that list/compare prices already, Wikipedia shouldn't be used for this purpose. I can understand discussing price changes (when needed), but listing them is turning the articles into unencyclopedic price guides. A comment: (from the talk page of an original discussion/poll of this matter): It's handy for people like me that want the know the price before I go to the Wii Shop channel to download the game. Also because when I'm at work my internet is extremely filtered. Why is this even an issue?? People shouldn't be using Wikipedia to find out prices for things, that's what the many price websites out there are for. Encyclopedia and price guide don't mix, period. RobJ1981 20:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Not every that can be verifiable needs to (or should) go in Wikipedia. The thinking should not be: "If it's verifiable, let's put it in"; it should be (1) "do we want/need this information here?" and (2) "can we supply a source for the information so the reader can verify what we have written?". (1) comes before (2) every time. Carcharoth 20:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Like anything else, it should be included if it is notable. If, for example, a product is notable in part because of the low cost (like the XO-1 (laptop)) and the cost can be sourced, it should be included. If there is nothing notable about the price, then it should not be indcluded. I don't think that a blanket WP:NOT policy is the way to go here.Chunky Rice 20:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Another good example. Notability and ability to source the information. Both are crucial. Carcharoth 20:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
• I agree. A blanket WP:NOT is not the way to go here. As I noted in one of the other debates, prices can be encyclopedic (see Ford Model T for instance). This is the sort of thing that needs to be decided on an article by article basis. -- MisterHand 20:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked at Ford Model T, and that is not at all what I meant by a price guide. From that article:

"It was sold in the beginning at a price of $850 when competing cars often cost $2000-$3000. By the 1920s the price had fallen to $300 (about $3,300 in 2005 inflation-adjusted dollars)"

That is giving historical data (first prices, then 1920s prices), and comparing to today's figures, and noting that it was cheap at the time. This is an example of encyclopedic treatment of prices. The sort of thing I am talking about is a list of computer games released in 2007 and their current retail prices obtained from god-alone-knows-where. See this edit where I removed a whole list of US and European prices for a list of computer games. I would trust competent editors to understand the difference between a current price guide and a carefully sourced discussion of historical prices. The exact wording would have to be thrashed out, but this is such a blatant example of what Wikipedia should not be, that I feel something should be added. What is the best way to proceed from here? Carcharoth 20:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

To reply to some of the comments above, I would agree that you don't need a compartive price list for a product within the article (ie listing multiple prices from various different retailers for the same product). On the other hand, I would say that including the verified MSRP for a product is an encyclopedic piece of data that average readers would be interested in seeing. So including a single, verifiable data point that represents the standard suggested retail price for the product is, in my opinion, worth including. Dugwiki 21:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Another way to put this is that a product is significantly defined by its retail price. Two products that are otherwise identical but that have differing prices are going to normally be received differently by the public. Therefore from the point of view of describing the fundamental aspects of what a product is, knowing how much it sells for is an important part of that knowledge alongside knowing what the product actually does, who makes it, if it's still in production and how the product is critically received and how well or poorly it sells. Dugwiki 21:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this. For example, I happened to look up the B.I.O. Bug -- a robot toy from 2001 -- after coming across a reference to it. No price is given. So how do I know if this was a wildly expensive premium product like AIBO, or a mass market toy? Clicking through to a source reveals that it had an MSRP of US$39.99, which tells me a lot about what kind of product it was. The article needs that information.

Some types of products have fairly standardized prices, and the minor variations aren't very important. Still, better to have a few unnecessary prices here and there than to throw out those that are relevant. —Celithemis 22:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that prices should be held to the same notability and source guidelines any other information is. If a price has been noted elsewhere of being significant in some way (especially pricy or cheap) then it could be included. If the price is a 'meh' average retail for that type of product, then why would the information need to be included. As with any other information in Wikipedia, if it hasn't been noted somewhere else first, it shouldn't be noted here. (And by noted I mean 'noted as being special in some way', otherwise any price could be listed!) And I think that article might have been a bad choice, since it's a very poor article to begin with! DarkSaber2k 22:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

True, it's a poor article, but that doesn't change the point: price is a significant piece of information for that item. AIBO needs pricing information too.

I agree with you that prices should be treated like any other kind of information on Wikipedia. So why single them out for special scrutiny by including them in WP:NOT? —Celithemis 22:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Excatly. Existing policies already cover this quite handily, so there's really no reason to create more.Chunky Rice 23:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest only adding prices if it is somehow significant to the subject. The Ford Model T was famous for being affordable, the Lamborghini Murciélago is, in part, famous for being expensive. Note: I'm not suggesting only applying this to cars - that's just an easy example. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 00:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

My 10 pence - I see listing prices as a subset of indiscriminate information. Unless the price is genuinely notable (as with the Model T example). To go with the cause of this discussion, the Wii points, each console has a different price for it's games, BUT that price remains the same in all but 2 examples. As I said elsewhere, listing 25 identical prices just because the 26th is different strikes me as completely ridiculous. Sentences stating 'N64 games cost 1000 points' etc can esaily be included in a genereal overview, and the 2 games that have different prices can easily have a sentence stating the different pricing in their individual articles. Allowing lists Wii points/XBox points/any other type of pricing in ANY form of currency just opens the door for a whole mess of other crap exists inclusions. So I think that not only should a new entry be added to allow removal of pricing information (of which I'm finding a lot of Browser-based game articles also list, which also smacks of advertising), but that it also specifically be worded to include prices in 'points'. The wording would definitly need to be as unambiguous as possible. After all, something is either a price or it isn't, there isn't much middle ground. If prices ARE notable for some reason, they would still need to have been recorded as notable in independent sources to stay in line with policies, otherwise people could just list any old price. DarkSaber2k 11:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with excluding lists of prices from all sorts of various retailers. But I would want to include the original suggested or average retail price for reference when the product was first launched. The original MSRP is a useful piece of information for most products, in my opinion. Dugwiki 22:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

MSRP where though? If we put up the price for an item in one country, we open a whole can of 'Why that country and not this country?' worms, surely. We can't just arbitrarily say 'Just the US price' or 'Just the UK price' DarkSaber2k 22:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure we can. You can either choose a country which appears to be the most significant intended original market for the product, or you can include a few key different prices for multiple countries for products which simultaneously launch in multiple countries. Just because Wikipedia is global doesn't mean you can't be discerning when deciding between what prices are the most relevant to the topic. Dugwiki 22:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Who chooses? You? Me? The company? The news sources? The shops? The online retailers? (Edit conflict) Choosing something because 'it appears to be the most significant intended original market for the product, or 'a few key different prices' is original research in my eyes, unless there are independent sources to back it up. (or maybe primary sources would be ok fr this, I'm not sure.)DarkSaber2k 22:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The editorial consensus of the article in question chooses. Dugwiki 22:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Editorial consensus can easily end up putting original research in. Our editors are decidely not infallible in this regard. In this case you have to have a reliable source for the information. Most reliable sources for "prices" tend to be either (1) a news story about this remarkably cheap/expensive object, (2) a history/economics book that compares prices over decades of inflation, (3) other examples I can't remember at the moment. What is not really acceptable is just quoting from a manufacturer's website or press release. That is just free advertising for them. We are supposed to add value and say why we are telling the reader the price. Just a list of prices fails to do that. So, in conclusion, single prices, with sources, and an encyclopedic (rather than commercial) reason for telling the reader the price, are OK, but lists of prices without commentary are not acceptable. Can I add something like this to the policy? Carcharoth 02:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you have consensus for that. For the record, I oppose for all of the reasons I've stated above.Chunky Rice 02:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was being hopeful there. :-) (I've tried suggesting changes to policy pages before - it is a real energy-drainer). What I'd really do is put up a draft wording, advertise it widely, and then see what consensus is. This is really the preliminary discussion. BTW, out of interest, following on from your "already covered by policy" comment, which parts of the policy would you quote at someone who is insistent that giving a list of prices is "not a violation of policy"? Carcharoth 02:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

At the most basic level, notability. For something more specific, WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE, the statistics section.Chunky Rice 02:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

So would that work here? (The example that got me started on all this in the first place). And do you agree with the opinions expressed here? I'm off now, but any more input there or here would be great. Thanks. Carcharoth 02:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I certainly think it's a reasonable argument. But most of the people in that discussion aren't really arguing based on policy, in my opinion. I think that an RFC to get a broader section of editors interested in policy to comment is probably your best bet.Chunky Rice 03:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to respond to the criticism that "editorial consensus can easily introduce original research". Of course any group has the possibility of introducing errors into an article, but that doesn't diminish the fact that editorial consensus is clearly what normally has final say over article content. I also disgree with your categorization of simply including a price as "original research". Including a price does not by itself insinuate original editorial opinion nor is it necessarily attempting to originally interpret data in a non-obvious way. Certain very basic statistics on topics are allowed to be included in articles based on primary sources.

An example of something that might be original research would be combining all sorts of different retail prices into a list in such as way as to show some possible pricing trend or to show some original analysis on how the prices compare. But simply including a single price by itself normally wouldn't be original research so long as the price is verifiable and reasonably relevant (eg MSRP would be relevant, but a price from a random vendor wouldn't be.) Dugwiki 16:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think that based on the above, it would be fair to add a line to WP:NOT stating that in most cases, pricing information is not relevant to an article, because Wikipedia is not a product catalog. Note that the Foundation has told us to be wary against advertising information, and in many cases prices will be a part of that. >Radiant< 11:42, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I think I'd be ok with a statement that precludes "comparative price lists", but I wouldn't be ok with a blanket rule against price information like the MSRP of a product. How about something like this as a compromise?

"Wikipedia is not a comparative price list for products. How the price of a product varies by retailers and geographic regions is not normally relevant to an encyclopedic article about it due to the constant fluctuation of prices and currency rates both locally and globally. Price information should therefore either not normally be included in product article or be limited in scope to price information that could be considered relevant in a broad economic sense, such as the manufacturer's original recommended price which is more likely to be used for analytical purposes."

That would get the main thing that we all agree on (avoiding catalog pricing and price lists, etc) but would leave available things like the MSRP which a lot of readers probably are interested in. Dugwiki 16:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

• I'm against such a policy at all, as I stated above because I believe that current policy is adequate to handle the situation. It is simply my experience that people wield WP:NOT like a club against things they don't want without actually understanding the policy behind it. That said, if something must be added, here is my input. I strongly disagree with including languange like "in most cases" or anything like that. Each incident should be weighed on its own merits without bearing a presumption of guilt. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chunky Rice (talk • contribs) 17:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

It sounds like you might be replying more to Radiant here since I didn't use the phrase "in most cases". As far as current policies and guideline, the closest thing that deals with price lists would be WP:NOT#DIR to say that Wikipedia is not a directory of loosely associated facts. WP:N doesn't apply because WP:N deals with article topics as a whole and not individual specific information within an article (ie it says that an article as a whole should have multiple independent references, not that every piece of information in the article needs multiple independent references.) Obviously any included prices in an article should be properly cited. So whether or not you think this is a good addition will probably depend on whether or not or how much you think WP:NOT#DIR applies.Dugwiki 17:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was directed towards Starblind's version. My apologies for the confusion. I actually think that WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE is a better fit for this situation. And, obviously, I feel that it's adequate. I'm biased against new policy, in general, though. It's that libertarian streak in me. Why make two rules when one will do?Chunky Rice 17:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually I don't think WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE currently applies. That section is very specific on the things it covers, it's not a general catch-all to handle "things that don't seem to apply" or "trivia" (although some editors try and use it that way). The WP:NOT#DIR section, though, might apply. Dugwiki 18:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I personally think that the current WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE isn't good enough for prices (although, as I said earlier, I think prices do fall under that). The fact that there is this much discussion over it kind of suggests to me that, while a whole new rule might not be required, there is defintily room for a little nipping and tucking of the existing policy. DarkSaber2k 18:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with this - seems like it will only result in removal of valid, appropriate encyclopaedia-worthy prices (like RRPs of consoles at launch or car prices) and to mention this specifically will only lead to edit warring. -Halo 08:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The future people might refer to an encyclopedia to discover relative costs of items. This is tricky for the present people because they have to decide whether to use USD, EUR, CNY, GBP, etc. (and they have a hard enough time with 'color' VS 'colour'), and they don't want to have to clean up all the prices put in by the yesterday people. How useful is a price from 2002 when comparing it to a price from 2007 or 2015? I don't see a problem if people are including sourced, verified, statements of price with dates. Dan Beale 16:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with "Virtual Console" Wii points is not that people are including price information, but that people are creating articles for EVERY SINGLE VIDEO GAME EVER MADE, and then probably creating articles for every character in those games. :-( Dan Beale 16:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Shortcut problem

I noticed that in the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" the shortcut says "WP:NOT#IINFO", with two I's. I changed it to "WP:NOT#INFO", but now "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#INFO" goes to the top of the page, whereas the misspelling, "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#IINFO" goes to the relivent section. Kevin 00:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I thought IINFO stood for Indiscriminate INFOrmation. —Celithemis 02:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh. Didn't know that. Someone already restored the shortcut anyway, so nevermind :-X. Kevin 12:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Shopping Guide?

In a recent AFD discussion, a user declared that the Wikipedia "is not a shopping guide." I can see arguments for and against that statement, and was wondering what you think. Is the Wikipedia a shopping guide ? If not, there's a lot more to be done than just delete Comparison of time tracking software - What's the next step if the bulk of this category of articles linked to here should be removed? Big if, but I'm curious - Not at all sure where I stand. MrZaius^talk 11:51, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Good question. The articles in that category do make me fall asleep, but then I hate those massive comparison magazines and sites and rarely use them before buying something. I think there is a place for restrained lists on Wikipedia, listing sourced, historical stuff that will be of interest in 10 years time, but not for stuff that would be used when deciding whether to buy or download something. Bascially, anything that will soon be out-of-date, leave out. But I agree, this is a tricky one. I suggest posting to the Village pump for wider input. Carcharoth 12:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to decide, but I'm inclined to allow them to stay if they are done properly without much linkspam to external sites, like Comparison of WYSIWYG HTML editors is right now. They allow readers to gain insightful information on these items without having to read each and every article. They do provide useful information. ^{Review Me}CASCADIA^Howl/_Trail 15:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)