Talk:Macedonia

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page. Archive 1

I made a minor change. It sounded as if Thrace
is part of Greek Macedonia, in reality Thrace pertains seperate
”diamerisma” of Greece (Greek for compartment)and is a geographical term.
There is the administrative term "perifereia" which indeed includes East Macedonia
and Thrace together. Sorry for the pedantry.

Written by an anon.

Fact:

24 February 2000: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbb1992 (talk • contribs)

Greek Macedonia First!

Is there a good reason why FYROM is listed first and Greek Macedonia second? The original and true historical parts are in Greece which should be listed first! Ancient Macedonians spoke and claimed to be Greek.. The problem with the people of FYROM is that the past 60 years they are victims of politician's "propaganda" and "brainwashing" about their identity and language and finally convinced them that they are Macedonians... if FYROM had any relation to ancient Macedonia they would be speaking Greek and not a Bulgarian Language... • NO MACEDONIAN ETHNICITY • NO MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE • PROPAGANDA OF TITO MUST STOP. --Hankz1982 09:07, 31 October 2008

Relevancy

I did not remove the name of the newpaper or the bank of Macedonia[1]. But u did [2], mistakenly as u say (so no reason to accuse me). What i reverted were nationalistic sentences like The first liberated part of the divided Macedonia, a former yugoslav republic. Be careful why and who u blame... --Hectorian 23:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake! I don't know what exactly happened. I also made a mistake while editing. My bad, sorry again! --Realek 00:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No problem. --Hectorian 00:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Македонија

First of all, I was shocked that after typing FYROM in the Wikipedia search box, I wasn't automatically redirected to the Republic of Macedonia page. There should be an automatic redirect, or at least put Republic of Macedonia as the term number 1, and not 2.

A huge part of Macedonia was given to Greece by world powers after WWII. Almost no Greeks ever lived there. The "Greek" Macedonia has only been a part of Macedonia for these 60 years, I think the Republic of Macedonia represents Macedonia better than the region given to Greece.

Its fact, not opinion, that the Greeks don't even want to give Macedonia the right to use their ancient name, so that Macedonia won't ask for their territories back. Macedonia is the land of Macedonians, it has always been like that, just because they lost a part of their territory, you can't erase history. MACEDONIA SHOULD REDIRECT TO REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, and then put "Macedonia redirects here, for other uses...". It's the right thing to do. --serbiana - talk 22:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

If u were 'shocked' by what u typed, try typing 'Ireland'...The name has been used for the region of Macedonia for thousands of years, but just 15 years for the FYROM and by FYROM. The whole part of the ancient region of Macedonia (representing the 51% of the definition of the region in the beginning of the 20th century), was liberated by the Greeks in 1912-13 (during the Balkan Wars)-it has nothing to do with the time after the WWII. Search for the Ottoman censa: they clearly show that the Greeks formed the majority of this part.Macedonia(the ancient,historical region with the monuments and the people who speak the language of the ancient Macedonians, represents Macedonia better that ancient Dardania, which was the name of the land of FYROM.

Believe me,it's a fact that Greeks are not afraid of the people of FYROM, so it is not their territorial claims that makes us not letting them use that name. The Fyromians lost nothing of their territory...At least we agree in one thing: Macedonia is the land of Macedonians. the people of FYROM as Slavs who came in the region in the 5th century, so, even if the ancient Macedonians were not Greek (contemporary and the majority of modern historians say they were!), the modern day inhabitants of FYROM have nothing to do with them... --Hectorian 00:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

...And, I was really shocked too when I typed Macedonia and was presented with this disambiguation page that has its priorities wrong:

1. First it has the region (i.e. the republic plus the Greek province plus Bulgaria/Albania) —which is OK by me ofcourse
2. Second it has a country of 2.0 million people
3. Third it has a province of 2.6 million people

Now if the country status is to your opinion automatically giving the precedence in the republic's name, I think you are wrong. Apart from the censa, check also the Google tests in Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Comments to FYROM name support position to see that the term "Macedonia" is twice more commonly used when referring to Greece, than when referring to the republic! I am sure, the users who were shocked like me, were twice as many as the ones who were shocked like you!  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 08:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, here's my two Eurocents:

• I know Macedonia as the household name for the present-day republic of which the capital is Skopje, and I firmly believe everybody in the whole world who knows about this republic also knows it by this name, including those who insist that use of the name is wrong. In fact, I was taught this name in school, back in the days when Yugoslavia was a country and Macedonia a part of it;
• I know Macedonia as the name of an ancient kingdom, capital Pella, headed by Alexander the Great, amongst others, and generally understood to be Greek, and I strongly believe anyone with any level of general education shares this knowledge with me; in fact, I was taught this fact in school, as part of my classical education;
• I am well aware that the ancient kingdom of Macedonia was largely located in what is today a part of Greece, and therefore, is almost disjoint, both in language, and in area, with the present-day republic of Macedonia, and there isn't the slightest danger that I will ever confuse the two; moreover, I firmly believe that very few people who have heard of Alexander the Great and the present-day republic will make the mistake of confusing the two;
• I know Macedonia as the name of a Roman province, which was much larger than the original kingdom of Macedonia, and more or less stood for Greece as a whole; in fact, I was taught this fact in school, as part of my classical education.

So what we see here is exactly what this disambiguation page describes: the term Macedonia is used to describe different things, and - as is the case with very many terms - there isn't actually much danger of confusion, since the intended meaning is practically always clear from the context.

• It is extremely common for terms to have different meanings. There is nothing special about the term Macedonia in this regard. A screwdriver, for instance, can be a tool or a cocktail. A cocktail can be a drink or a part of an animal. An animal can be a human being with wild behavior or a particular class of organisms that is largely multicellular and capable of locomotion. Etcetera, etcetera. These meanings can happily live alongside each other, and so can the different meanings of the term Macedonia. The insistence, customary among Greek citizens, for the republic of Macedonia to be called 'FYROM' rather than just 'Macedonia', does not really help to clear up confusion (since there isn't much confusion to begin with), but is, rather, a source of ridicule among those who do not happen to be Greek citizens. Everybody who uses the term FYROM uses this term not out of necessity or convenience, but solely with the purpose of appeasing the Greek. Which is, of course, a very valid reason for using a term.

To sum up, I think the present disambiguation page is excellent, one of the shining examples of the powers of Wikipedia; and I believe it would be a dear mistake to replace it with a redirection to any of the specific meanings listed.

Rp 21:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, the problem with Yugoslav Macedonians using Macedonia in reference to their country should be sorted - reason? Just look at the discussions here!

It's obvious that the issue is causing stress for both nations.

Personally, I think Greece is right to request they find another name. The greek state of Macedonia has survived throughout the ages, thus has had the name first. When I google Macedonia, I expect to find the orginal Macedonia not a slavic nation of the wider region. Also, I notice that many people of FYROM are arguing that Alexander the Great and other people of the Greek Macedonian tribe where their ancestors!! They try to convince people of this by distinguishing the Macedonians from the other greek tribes. Unsuccessfully since they still can't explain why the Macedons spread Hellenism.

I have heard the theory that Tito and Stalin devised the "altering" of the history books in that country to create a climate for the claim on the Greek State of Macedonia - and looking at world politics, I wouldn't put it past politicians to claim access to the Aegean no matter how fabricated their claims are or seem to be.

As such, I think Greece should stick to her rightful claim on the name of Macedonia since a lot of proganda sites from FYROM suggest that Greeks wrongfully "invaded" the "Aegean Macedonia". My point is, where will this end? It will just keep the confusion brewing througout the ages. To clarify, in my view there's only one true Macedonia - that is the greek region that produced the historically Hellenic empire of Alexander the Great. The other Macedonia of Slavic origin, will always be a slavic nation which has closer ties to the Bulgarians than to the original hellenic Macedonia. So, for clarity's sake and perhaps safety from confusion to future generations, FYROM should stick to a name that distinguishes them from the Greek Macedonia.Applesnpeaches 02:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 Macedonia is an acient greek state just like Athens and Sparta they had the same beliefs "12 gods",their flag symbolizes the 12 gods, earth , water, air, and fire, they used the same words, had the same achitecture, and their names finished by "is" or "os" and not by "vogski". Even if many King states where againgst the idea, with time Alexander the Great known as " Megas Alexandros" unified all the Greek states and traveled into Egypt and Asia and defeated the Persians and also spread Greek culture. And no i dont belive that FYROM (Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia) could use the name Macedonia or Alexander the Great because this is Greek history and Greek heritage.
  I agree Macedonia had a bigger territory and many of this lands where lost during many areas.

my point is to state that the issue of Macedonia is becoming a very sensitive case now in Greece and in Europe even if both countries live in peace and share a good economic trade. The issue of Macedonia first came to face during World War Two. FYROM is mosly locaded in Ancien Macedonian Territory and has a high population of Albanians living in it. The religion is mostly Orthodox. Most of the people living in FYROM are historic decedents from Slavs and some of Greeks who fleed during World War One and World War Two and no longer considered to be Greeks. In conclusion Macedonia is a Greek state which is now a Greek province and more then 3 million Greeks live in it. Alexander the Great is born in Greece, in Perla.

My say:

 And by the way, speaking of propangada, look at all those FYROM's authors changing their original names in "is" or "os" in order to prove a point. Dose it ring a bell? 

 Greece has brought up Democracy, the ideology of western civilization and the way the world is pretty much today.

MatriX

You may want to see how this issue has been handled at British Isles (terminology). --Telex 10:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

why revert?

Why did Aldux revert the previous edit?

Line 9 was edited to * Republic of Macedonia, a European country, with the UN Name: former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

Reverted then to * Republic of Macedonia, a European country, also referred to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

I believe that referring to the United Nations in the specific line is a good choice, as it gives the user a better view of WHY the country is also named FYROM.

Cheers.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Manos (talk • contribs)

For the same reasons for which also Jkelly reverted the anon.: "belabouring point, weird formatting".--Aldux 18:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a Wikipedia:Disambiguation page, meant solely to assist readers to find the article that they wanted when they typed "Macedonia" into the search bar. It is not the place to present the reader with any more information than necessary to help them make the right choice. No reader is going to think "Oh, I thought that I wanted Republic of Macedonia, but now that I see that the UN calls that country something else, I really want Macedonia (region)." Jkelly 19:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

'also referred to as' vs 'recognized by the UN', does not provide tons of unnecessary information to the reader and is more accurate. It may be disambiguation, but at the same time it should provide minimum information on the name dispute as it is an essential part of the term 'Macedonia' and it also might be a probable cause of searching for 'Macedonia' on Wikipedia. Dr. Manos 22:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Euler diagram request

Can someone create an objective Euler diagram for Macedonia, similar to the one used for the British Isles (terminology)?

Thanks :o Dr. Manos 00:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Squares and hotels

I removed these squares and hotels. I don't think they are notable to be added to the list.

• Macedonia Square, in Skopje
• Macedonia Square, in Sofia
• Macedonia Square, in Pleven
• Makedonia Palace, 5-star famous Luxurious hotel on the seafront of Thessaloniki, Greece

When someone proves their notability by writing articles about them, you can add them back to the list. But until then, I don't think they belong in there. For squares, it is different than for villages and towns, which are natable by default. bogdan 11:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bogdan; no need to put them.--Aldux 13:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Ditto that. I added the two Bulgarian squares because I saw another one. Todor→Bozhinov 13:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Why there are direct links to the administrative subdivision of the greek part? Equivalently one should provide the entire list of administration units in the Republic of Macedonia then? Please, object removal of the list. Koliokolio 14:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

FYROM should be first

If Macedonia opens to a disambiguation page, then in my view the first link should at least be the one to FYROM. Regardless of the political undercurrents that cause the dispute, one should look at the matter practically. I am certain that the vast majority of users that type in Macedonia are interested in the state, not any of the numerous other usages of the name. Although I don't believe there is a rigid policy in this matter, I still believe that a sovereign state should take precedence, not only due its greater importance at the international stage, but also because it has a higher probability of being the exact term searched for by a person. TSO1D 23:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I've always suspected that most would be looking for the empire of Alexander the Great to help with their homework. Jkelly 02:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The most common name for that would be Macedon. In any case look at "what links here" for Macedonia, and most uncorrected links intend the state, not anything else. TSO1D 02:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

They have not been properly disambiguated yet.   /FunkyFly.talk_  19:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

True, however look at WP:disambig#Primary_topic. Official policy in selecting the primary topic is to find what particular definition most links refer to and what the most common inteded target for a query is. Thus if this page is to be kept as a disambiguation page with no primary article, then the guidelines should at least be followed in choosing the first link. Regardless of geographic, political and other considerations, the Republic of Macedonia is what most links pointing to Macedonia refer to at the moment which gives a rough overview of the more popular usage of the word. While looking at the archives I saw that most other users came to the exact same conclusion, that most users who search for Macedonia are interested in the state, not the general region. There are other similar cases, such as Moldova pointing to the Republic of Moldova, although Moldova is also the historic name for the region Moldova that includes a greater territory which is currently found under its alternate name Moldavia. If all agree that the most common intended article is the one about the republic, than I believe that should at least be given favoured status as the first link, whatever other elaborate arguments can be presented. TSO1D 20:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Moldova is not equal to Moldavia. See Ireland.   /FunkyFly.talk_  20:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Right, the Republic of Moldova is not equal to Moldavia (which can also be written Moldova), it is a part of it, that is my point. In any case, I agree with you, the page should stay as it is, I see the same is done for China or other such examples. TSO1D 22:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the list is ordered in a geographical rather than political order of hierarchy. Thus Macedonia the region is the superset, containing Macedonia the country and Macedonia the Greek and Bulgarian provinces (which are all parts of the wider region). Historical Macedonia is a second category containing extinct political entities. I have no particular preferences for the order, but a geographical hierarchy does have some logic to it. -- ChrisO 17:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Versions

May I know why was the article reverted? Please answer or I will have to request this article for comment. AdoniCtistai 16:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

See ChrisO's comment right above this line. Macedonia (region) should be first. --Telex 16:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will take that into consideration. AdoniCtistai 16:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Bonaparte, what's with the RfC fixation? First Todor, now request for comment from an article (??(   /FunkyFly.talk_  16:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is Bonaparte? Some questions: Why does Macedonia (Greece) appear twice? Why does Vardar Macedonia links erroneously? Why does the rest of the geographic meanings (like East Macedonia or West Macedonia) are not on top? AdoniCtistai 16:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

See Macedonia (terminology). I don't like the present version either - I'll try to do something now - please give me a minute. To answer your other question, Bonaparte is a permabanned user, who's edits may be reverted without regard to the 3RR. --Telex 16:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Isn`t that better than that former messy version? AdoniCtistai 16:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Enjoy it while your proxy isnt blocked yet.   /FunkyFly.talk_  16:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

?????? AdoniCtistai 16:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Dab link cull

Check these edit summaries (both): [3]. I suggest we make a list discussion on what should/should not stay. •NikoSilver• 08:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Southern Europe at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Southern Europe whose scope would include Macedonia. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Criteria for sorting of 'Places in the Balkans'

I am the user who, as of today, did the last major cleanup. Since then, there have been attempts (all rv by other users) to move one entry or another up the list, in the section 'Places in the Balkans'. For their information, and for future reference, I'll present here my logic behind the arrangement of that section:

1. I wanted to create a section small enough - but nevertheless cohesive and comprehensive- so that it could be 'absorbed' all at once, a section that, if there were no sorting criteria, would still serve its purpose of dabbing places in the Balkans.
2. BUT, as this is an acknowledged politically sensitive issue, there must be some sorting criteria, so that one does not impose their own personal agenda. The criteria I came upon is:
3. Articles titled 'Macedonia (anything)' come first, as this is presumably what someone who typed 'Macedonia' is looking for.
4. Articles titled 'anything Macedonia anything' come second.
5. So, there are two blocks in the section 'Places in the Balkans'.
6. Why didn't I split the blocks into sections 'Places in the Blakans called Macedonia' and 'Other places in the Balkans with Macedonia in their name'? Because Republic of Macedonia would not fit the criteria for the first section and would have to go into the second section. I recognize that would not be a stable solution for everyone, however.
7. Why didn't I split the blocks into sections 'Major Balkan places' and 'Other Balkan places'? Because there would have to POV on determining what places were 'major' and what were not. If I look at the list, I can find only two places which cannot be defended as 'major', making for a very small second section. This criteria would not be a solution, either.
8. So, I think one section only, with all places in the Balkans, composed of two blocks, is the best solution and the best compromise.
9. In each block, I sorted the article titles by alphabetical order. The easiest on the eye and the easiest on the brain, no contest.
10. The alpha sort criteria also saves on arguing if other criteria were to be used: sort by area? sort by region creation date? sort by article creation date? sort by population? sort by number of WP links? sort by Google count? sort by 'importance'? sort by 'hierarchy'? sort by name length? Alpha sort is neutral and avoids all arguments.

That's it. As someone totally unconnected with any Macedonia or anything Balkan at all, I am happy with these criteria. I hope everyone else is too, after reading this. Thank you. --maf 23:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually we are not happy... I don't know how you came up with this sorting schema, but placing a republic after an airport does not seem very objective to me... When a foreigner (by a foreigner i mean someone not from the Balkans, otherwise here we are all the same despite our century long quarrels ), refers or searches for Macedonia, he or she in most cases means the Republic of Macedonia. When a Greek hears such a thing, he will correct him in a furious manner (and start lecturing about history), but nevertheless can not revert the fact that people mean Republic of Macedonia when they say simply Macedonia... therefore i think that The Republic of Macedonia should be placed at the top, and then everything else... --Martin taleski 02:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I see you already changed the sorting. Please state your rationale here so others can discuss (I suggest you start a new section). If we follow WP:BRD, a method for reaching consensus in these situations, we may quickly arrive to a stable version! --maf 03:00, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added section headings. While I appreciate attempts to render items neutrally (i.e., alphabetically), I find it very odd that the republic is noted near the bottom in this section. The Wikipedia guidelines for disambiguation indicates to "place the items in order of usage". Given this, the alphabetical method may not be sufficient. I suggest the following:

• (1) consult a reputable volume/entry for Macedonia, and render similarly (since that may imply prevalence), and/or
• (2) conduct simple web counts of the terms and order that way.

Per (1), for example, my edition of the New Oxford Dictionary of English orders them as follows:

• Macedon ... which then elaborates about Macedonia (region)
• Macedonia (Greece)
• Republic of Macedonia

Merriam-Webster is even more minimalist. Anyhow, as proposed, everything else would follow these entries, in usage or alpha order.
An aside (and alternative): I must admit that I would tend to arrange entries for places (geographic locations) in order of size or acope (larger > smaller), currency (current > historical?), or a combination. I also acknowledge that this may be an imperfect solution for a complex topic. Thoughts? Corticopia 02:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

That does not address the Macedonia naming dispute (which you should read if you are not familiar with it) (and because, being THE issue here, led me to put Macedonia (terminology) back at the top, from the bottom where you had put it). The dispute in a nutshell: Macedonia (Greece) should go first because it is richer and/or more popular and/or older and/or because Republic of Macedonia is a name not recognized by the UN; Republic of Macedonia should go first because it is a country, ranking over political provinces and geographical regions. Any 'usual' criteria you use will not appease both disputing sides; any 'popularity' or 'count' variable you use, I'm sure someone will give another equally valid variable that gives the opposite results. Result: always a stalemate. That's why I proposed a neutral criteria - an alpha sort. --maf (talk-cont) 02:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

OK -- but an alpha sort, in and of itself, is odd. Anyhow, as a possible alternative, I have tweaked this article. You will note two main sections for 'Places': one for those in antiquity, the other for not; within both, items are arranged hierarchically by size/scope: wider region > smaller regions > subregions/units. I hope this'll do. :) And I am familar: I placed Macedonia (terminology) below for similar reasons as in America (e.g., Americas) -- which has similar issues. Corticopia 02:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

i think i agree with this one! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Martin taleski (talk • contribs) 03:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

I had prepared a few hours ago an almost identical sort to the one you put up, but ended up discarding it because someone will almost certainly say "RoM is a country and should go first". But if User:Martin taleski is happy, maybe there's hope after all! So interesting to see how these things can get so emotional, and yet some of us are totally detached from them and also participating in the discussion. --maf (talk-cont) 03:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Great! (I'm keeping my fingers crossed ...) :) Corticopia 03:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

When people say Macedonia, they most probably mean RoM

My reasoning is very simple: When somebody types Macedonia in the textbox for searching, he usually wants to learn more about the Republic of Macedonia! That's why RoM should go first... Somebody in this discussion said that it is more likely that he wants to learn more about the kingdom of Alexander of Macedon... True, this article is more popular than the one about RoM, but if i want to go the article about Ancient Macedonia and read about Alex, i would type Alexander the Great... but that's just me... since Alexander is more popular, let him be first, which i think would satisfy the Greeks and their POV to some extent, and let the Republic of Macedonia be second, since after all is a country (republic)... than will be the region, and all the parts, and then everything else if people that visit Wikipedia are that bored and want to read about our wars, disputes and neverending negotiations... i think this sorting is better than placing the Republic of Macedonia after an airport on the disambiguation page of Macedonia...

to elaborate further on this issue, i think that the airport should be out of the picture in any case since it is standing out of the crowd of regions, provinces and a country... after all the airport might be destroyed by an earthquake or flooded by rising sea levels (which is highly likely btw), but Macedonia, (region, province or country) will remain the same... at least we hope that will remain the same :)

Martin taleski 03:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

So which are you advocating, that RoM goes first, or that Macedon goes first? For my part, I think RoM should be first (country), the airport (and perhaps Makedonia Palace since it now has a page?) last (buildings), and the order for the rest (regions past and present) was fine how it was under the previous criteria. -Bbik 03:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

My sorting criteria is fully objective. Your sorting criteria is almost all subjective, using words as "usually", "likely", "more popular", "I would", "satisfy the Greeks". It's hard to argue based on subjectivity, so let me try to restate your criteria taking out as much subjectivity as possible:

1. Macedon on top, because it's the most popular article
2. Republic of Macedonia, because it is a country
3. The region and its sub-regions
4. Everything else

My questions on your sorting are:

• How do you establish what is the most popular article in WP - are there page counters in WP to see which article is the most viewed or did you use a different counter?
• Is there the risk that someone will request the region or a sub-region to be put ahead of the country, based on area, population, age, GDP, or another objective criteria?
• There are contemporary regions and one historical region. How do you rank them together?

I would also like to address the issue of the articles being dabbed. Per WP:MOSDAB, only articles that could be titled "Macedonia" should be dabbed; articles that contain "Macedonia" in their title should NOT be automatically dabbed. Just to give you an example: if the Macedonia Airport is also commonly known as just Macedonia (as in "the plane landed at Macedonia"), it should stay in the page; otherwise, it should be removed. I'm not going to remove any entry because I'm not competent on the subject but I would like to raise the question on the airport but also on the diocese and on the sub-regions. Are all of these instances commonly referred to as just "Macedonia"?

--maf (talk) 04:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Please argue order in the order section--208.102.210.163 (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a shopping mall in Thessaloniki called Macedonia... do you think that we should include it too in this list? I don't have the time to discuss now, but you know that it is not right that ancient roman provinces, regions that very few people know of their existence in the form that they are described (Pirin, Vardar, Aegean) and airports should not be in a list in front of a internationally recognized country...

and what will happen if we start saying that Greece should disambiguate to Ancient and Modern Greece, which is exactly the same thing with the disambiguation of Macedonia. And does any other country on wikipedia disambiguate? Does China disambiguate to POC and Taiwan, or Germany to the roman province of Germania, East and West Germany and Bundess Republik Deutchland, or Russia to the Kievian Russia, Moscow Russia (Russian Empire), Russian Soviet Socialistic Republic or Modern Russia... here is another one: Mongolia to the region of Mongolia, Mongolian Kingdom of Gengis Khan and modern Mongolia!

i think that you will agree that it is stupid to disambiguate a country! But ok, we have this thing with the Greeks, and we must live with it! But still, almost all of the people in the world (except Greeks) mean the Republic of Macedonia when they say Macedonia! And this is clear to everybody, even to Greeks! We might have a poll to test this... and this is the only relevant factor: What do people mean when they say something...

and since we have this disambiguation i am adding another thing: The Socialist Republic of Macedonia, the federal unit in Yugoslavia... there is an article on it, and it has a place on this list!

Martin taleski 20:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

You think everybody . . . no! Most people have never heard of FYROM. What people mostly think about (if they have heard of it) is Alexander the Great. Secondly, I am sure people associate the term Macedonia with Greece. A small state that only became independent a decade ago and stole the name of an ancient one ought to put up with a disambiguation page.

Re: The dates I added -- If they're wrong, someone please correct them, I will admit right now that I don't know nearly enough about any of it, and I only skimmed the various pages, so I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if I mis-read something. However, at least it gives a general timeframe now, even if it is off by perhaps a few years. -Bbik 02:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

When people say Macedonia, they definitely mean Macedonia (Greece)

Not that I (as a Greek) would care if Macedonia was first or second (lol), but country or not, the Greek Macedonia certainly receives much more attention and interest. The following are some of the reasons:

• It has twice the population (2.6 vs 1.3million)^{FYROM/RoM censusGR census} so it has more 'hits' - Thessaloniki metro-area alone^{GR census} has more inhabitants than the Slavic population up north in the whole country
• It has multiple times the economy^{26.0K$ vs 7.7K$ per capita} (so more points of financial interest) so even more hits
• It is a hot tourist destination with many hotels, resorts, etc (because it borders the Aegean Sea)^{Tourism in Greece}
• It has many institutions, universities etc^{List of universities in Greece}
• It has a dedicated ministry,^{Ministry site} houses many Greek governmental parts, and Thessaloniki shares the status of "joint capital"^{Official source} of Greece (with Athens being the capital)

In short, it's more likely for someone to look for something in Macedonia Greece, than the country or the other province. Still, I wouldn't care if it were first or second (and nobody should, because it's lame). There are some who do, though, as I see... NikoSilver 01:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

yes, i agree with the Stats... but the point is that foreigners do not know that there is a Greek province called Macedonia! if they want to go to a vacation on Halkidiki, they will look for Greece, not Macedonia, they know that Thessaloniki is in Greece, not Macedonia... that is a fact, just like the fact that Greek Macedonia is more developed than Slavic Macedonia

Martin taleski 01:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Everyone has heard of Halkidiki. No. I assure you Thessaloniki is much more famous than Halkidiki. (that is a pain to type) And not just in general, Thessaloniki is a famous center(e) of Macedonian culture.--208.102.210.163 (talk) 00:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I took the time to cite all my claims above. Can you please cite yours? NikoSilver 19:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This is just a gut-instinct view, but I suspect that Martin's comments above are probably right. If you see anything to do with "Macedonia" in the news, for instance, it will most likely be to do with the country rather than the Greek region - see for instance this BBC News story, which has been much discussed over here in the UK in the past week. It contains one reference to "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and four to "Macedonia" or "Macedonian", without any prefixes. You can see a very similar trend on Google News here. I suspect that over time, as the FYROM name falls out of use, we'll see something like what's happened with Luxembourg - foreigners will associate the name exclusively with the country and won't be aware that a neighbouring country has a province of the same name. We shouldn't change our current approach to disambiguating the name, though, as it's very much a long term trend which isn't as nearly well established as the example I just cited. Can we come back to this question in 10 years' time, please? :-) -- ChrisO 20:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The hits disagree for now (although too WP:OR to present them as I did back then). Furthermore, I doubt there was ever a dispute for the Luxembourg issue. As for the obvious reference to the "in 10 years nobody will remember" quote by the 1992 PM Constantine Mitsotakis, may I remind that he was defending his line for an alleged agreement for "Slavomacedonia". :-) It's already been 15 and nobody has forgotten since, as it seems... NikoSilver 20:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there probably was an issue back in 1839 when Luxembourg was divided, but I'd bet that nobody remembers it now. Regarding the "in 10 years" line I didn't know that Mitsotakis had said something similar! Still, I think the underlying sentiment is the right one - history will be the judge, not us... -- ChrisO 20:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Hah, he said it indeed, and yes, you're right: history will be the judge, not US. :-) NikoSilver 20:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

When you say US, I suppose you mean us and not US whose Congress recently decided to re-use the term FYROM in official documents?--Yannismarou 20:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I left it to the reader to decide... NikoSilver 20:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Niko, I presume this is what Yannis was talking about. -- ChrisO 21:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and this proves IMO one thing: that your conclusion could be reversed. History will be the judge, not "us" ... but history is also influenced by "us". Interpret "us" in any way you want. The two sentences still make sense!--Yannismarou 21:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

No offence to history, but Yannismarou has a point. We need to decide now. I doubt any time-travelling will help us decide, but I do not doubt Wikipedia will have a say on how the debate goes in the English-speaking world. To speak of the future is no solution. Action ought to be taken to ensure the preciseness (along historical definitions of terms). Macedonia should refer to what Wikipedia calls Macedon, the region of Macedonia or the modern Greek region. 'Repubic of Macedonia' is an outrageous compromise for FYROM considering the 'Greek' Macedonian argument (a title like "Republic of" is ignored readily). Even Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM or FYRO Macedonia) could be considered offensive. However, considering there is no common alternative, the use of former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia should be accepted.--208.102.210.163 (talk) 00:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

What is wrong with SRM?

now i don't see what you have against SRM? I have expanded the article a bit so its not just a mere link to the republic of Macedonia... SRM does not exist anymore, just like the roman provinces, or Alexander's kingdom... and plese see the Russia (disambiguation)... there is a link to the old Soviet Republic, so in the same maner we'll have a link to SRM here! since we want to dissambigute the matter that much

Martin taleski 02:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

What to list

In an attempt to head off this argument before it becomes another case of the above:

• The Mercury example actually doesn't support listing subdivisions. They are not different "usages of the word", they are only a part of the title -- unless Greek Macedonia AND all three subdivisions are commonly called just "Macedonia" (And if that actually happens, that's got to be confusing, how does anyone keep it straight?).
• However, partially dependent on common naming, the subdivisions are related subject articles [where] the term in question is actually described on the target article.

As far as I'm concerned, I really don't care one way or another whether they're listed. It seems a bit overboard, but it doesn't hurt anything, so whatever. I'd just like something to be worked out so my watchlist can settle down again. -Bbik 18:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback -- yes, it can be confusing. However, these districts are included not so much because they are subregions per se (which they are) but because they are related terms containing the term in question (Macedonia). The Mercury example supports this: if Mercury Records is taken to be a valid inclusion for Mercury, surely the eponymous subdivisions of note in this discussion are worthy of inclusion here.

Greek Macedonia is often referred to without the modifier: in the Macedonia entry in the New Oxford Dictionary of English (p. 861, sense 2), it is defined without Greek even being noted as the modifier. This is part-and-parcel of the overarching naming dispute regarding the Republic of Macedonia. West, Central, and East Macedonia comprise (Greek) Macedonia. In this respect, if one considers that West, Central, and East are modifiers just the same as Greek, Vardar, Republic of, Socialist Republic of, et al. -- with Macedonia functioning as the noun throughout -- then there's NO reason at all to exclude these related terms. I hope this helps. Corticopia 18:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Corticopia for the elaboration. FWIW I wouldn't care removing them, but it seems ilucidating to include them as you put it. NikoSilver 20:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Corticopia 00:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I had already questioned the validity of the sub-regions being called just "Macedonia" and no one living in the regions or at least knowledgeable has answered directly. IF Pirin, Vardar, West, Central, and East (but NOT Greek, as demonstrated) are modifiers that HAVE to be present in order to identify their respective regions, THEN they don't create any possible confusion with the dabbed term, and should not be included because they are just cluttering the page with an additional level of indentation. --maf (talk-cont) 02:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The answer is that any such part can be simply referred as "Macedonia", and before you jump to say that the same applies for e.g. Thessaloniki, well, the word doesn't exist within Thessaloniki's name (in contrast to the others). Still, I wouldn't care removing them, but I found Corticopia's argument convincing. If I may propose an intermediate solution to list them in one line? As in:

---

• Macedonia (region), a region of the Balkan peninsula
  • Macedonia (Greece) or Greek Macedonia or Aegean Macedonia, subdivided into the three administrative districts of West, Central, and East Macedonia and Thrace
  • Republic of Macedonia or Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, formerly Socialist Republic of Macedonia (1946-1991), a federal unit of Yugoslavia and predecessor to the current Republic of Macedonia. Also Vardar Macedonia, a region almost coterminous with the Republic of Macedonia.
  • Pirin Macedonia, the unofficial name of Blagoevgrad Province, a region of Bulgaria

---

What do you think? (personally I visualize things better in lists) NikoSilver 14:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes: we probably wouldn't be having this discussion if these entities didn't have Macedonia in their names, but one of the intents of a disambiguation is to link "to different topic pages that share essentially the same term in their title." These apply. Relatedly, note that the overall region of (Greek) Macedonia, while commonly referred to as that, is no longer a formal entity within Greek governance, while the peripheries of West, Central, and East Macedonia (and Thrace) are. Given this, it actually seems absurd to not include these legitimate entities. Add to this the prior apparent rigmarole regarding Macedonia-related article, and I remain surprised about the resistance of including these terms here.

I prefer the arrangement as is (as unique entries are more apparent); the one-line inclusions seem overloaded but may do in a pinch or if this doesn't end soon. Maybe a combination:

• Macedonia (region), a region of the Balkan peninsula
  • Macedonia (Greece) or Greek Macedonia or Aegean Macedonia
    • Subdivided into three administrative districts of West Macedonia, Central Macedonia, and East Macedonia and Thrace
  • Republic of Macedonia or Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
    • Formerly Socialist Republic of Macedonia (1946-1991), a federal unit of Yugoslavia and predecessor to the current Republic of Macedonia.
    • Also Vardar Macedonia, a region almost coterminous with the Republic of Macedonia.
  • Pirin Macedonia, the unofficial name of Blagoevgrad Province, a region of Bulgaria

Corticopia 16:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yours is better than mine. But only if there definitely needs to be an adaptation of the present format for some reason. Also, I just thought that I shift my opinion to strong disagree for changing the present format, on the grounds that the new one is too cluttered (thereby creating the opposite effect from the one desired), and also, generally in dab pages, we only link one word in every line to avoid confusion (per WP:DAB#Disambiguation pages). NikoSilver 16:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. :) Corticopia 17:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to add to the discussion, the usual hierarchy in such instances is determined by the level of sovereignty possessed by each entity. Thus it goes:

• country
  • region
    • province
      • city
        • town
          • village

See Luxembourg (disambiguation) for a similar example, where the country (as the most politically important entity on the list) takes precedence, followed by various sub-entities of the same name in Luxembourg and Belgium. -- ChrisO 19:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Very lame example, if I may say. Not only is it a simple one- or two-level dab, but above all I don't see any naming dispute there. Please find a dab with a naming dispute that has stayed stable. In the meanwhile, I have been watching with amusement at how some editors aggressively stick to their sorting results and reject any other approaches, and other editors who keep finding reasons to push their favorite links upwards. I find especially amusing that the argument "larger goes first" is now serving for both disputing parties to push their agenda. By now, I would accept as natural the regular switching of places of the disputing links, as long as the overall structure of the dab stays intact. --maf (talk-cont) 20:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The naming dispute has nothing to do with it. If you look at Sysin's justification for reversing the order, he wrote: "Greek Macedonia is larger, more populous, older, 7x larger in ecomony, etc. etc." Which is true, but it ignores the obvious point that the Republic of Macedonia is the most politically significant entity on the list. It's a nation state, with a seat at the UN, its own armed forces, foreign relations, currency, language etc. None of those things is true for any of the other entities. Any nation state - whatever it might be called - automatically outranks any subnational entity. -- ChrisO 20:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Last time I checked, WP didn't care for such BS as "officiality". E.g. WP doesn't care about UN's position on TRNC, and doesn't call it "illegal". WP doesn't care about de jure, and has an article for every de facto pseudostate in the world. WP doesn't care how UN calls the country North of Greece, and uses the self-id. WP doesn't care if Kurdistan is -or if it ever declared- autonomous. So, the "automatic outranking" is moot in my book. "Political significance" counts zilt for what I care. And a UN seat is as bollocks, as that of Cyprus proper.

Arguments like these are never ending. The same happened in Georgia, (although not -1-neighboring -2-disputed), and the same will happen everywhere. I don't drop these arguments here to argue (because I don't give a damn), I just drop them to illustrate the vanity in defending the one or the other case.

Be as it may. Flip a coin. Swap it every even calendar month. Make two columns with different orders (-duh- who's will be the left column? And in Arabian wiki?) Or leave it as it is -and I honestly haven't checked where the roulette stopped this time. NikoSilver 21:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we're getting into WP:POINT territory here. -- ChrisO 20:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Mild though. Plus it motivated you devise a better solution. NikoSilver 21:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'd attribute that to simple irritation on my part. :-) -- ChrisO 21:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

That would be a violation of "don't irritate other editors to make them more productive", but we don't have such a rule! :-) NikoSilver 21:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Question: Who goes first?

Answer: Who gives a [insert euphemism here]!

• Do you want to be the prologue or the epilogue?

• Do you want your word to be the first or the last?

• Shall we start with the best or end with the best?

Try answering those questions first, before choosing which is "the best", "the first" alphabetically, or in size, or in economy, or in population, or in entity status. Then, we can continue the fight over who will get the good place (last or first). And then all of you will deserve a prominent place in WP:BJAODN (and a long block to match it). NikoSilver 16:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"I fully agree with you as long as (insert favorite here) goes first." Oh well. Philosophy doesn't work here. --maf (talk-cont) 20:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Nor does polemicism. Corticopia 02:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Kumbaya! --maf (talk-cont) 02:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, at least Greeks (Macedonians included) come first where it really matters! ^{[4] [5]} A new criterion maybe? NikoSilver 10:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Come on people, please use good sense. Anybody who has no Balkanic roots knows very well (and please don't pretend it's not true) that the first things the word Macedonia links to are 1) the ancient kingdom 2) the modern republic; and I'm sorry, but the Greek province comes miles after, let alone the Bulgarian region, which risks to come behind the USA town.--Aldux 16:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

If we begin assessing notability ourselves, won't we be running foul of WP:OR and WP:NPOV? Also, what's wrong with being Balkanian, are Balkanians second class citizens?!--Ploutarchos 17:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a disambiguation page, not an article, and our interest here is estabilishing what is best for the reader, not for us editors. As for the second point, I must admit I didn't know a Balkanian citizenship existed ;-p What I meant (honestly I thought this was obvious) is that wikipedia is worldwide, and that the japanese reader has the same rights to find immediately what he's searching, without having to pass first for the Macedonian peripheries. Please lets think of the 99/98% of potential readers who are not from the Balkans.--Aldux 17:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually when I said "see talk", I meant the section above, where valid notability arguments are illustrated. I have serious doubts regarding the (IMO false) premise that "the Greek province comes miles after". On the contrary, I have valid and sourced reasons to believe that it leaves the others miles behind in terms of notability. May I also add that Macedon coincides with Macedonia (Greece). See above. (plus we do it more often lol)^{[6] [7]} NikoSilver 17:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

If I am not intruding, it seems like there are three options, alphabetical, Pro-Macedonia, and Pro-FYROM. FYROM supporters may argue that the "Republic of Macedonia" is a fully independent state (thus it being more important and) deserving a position topping the list. However, the problem with this reasoning is that although in technical diplomatic understanding FYROM has greater power, Macedonia is more important historically, culturally, economically and demographically. A Pro-Macedonian listing, however, satisfies the importance position of the Pro-FYROM. The alphabetical listing is also an acceptable compromise for obvious reasons, though may seem odd.--208.102.210.163 (talk) 01:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A new approach

I've made some changes to the sort order in an attempt to break out of this futile wrangle. The sort is now strictly by order of political and geographical precedence, hence supranational region -> state -> subnational region -> administrative unit. -- ChrisO 20:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

FWIW I preferred the order based on frequency of sex. Check Fictionlandia when you find the time and tell me your thoughts. NikoSilver 21:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This seems an interesting idea; unfortunately we can't ask the ancient Macedonians regarding how much, uhmm, well, hmm, what to say - oh well, you know what I mean....;-) Certainly, if Philip was a typical Macedonian, then due to his conquests (no, I'm not speaking of his battles, diplomacy and other boring stuff) I doubt anybody would not give Macedon the first place ;-) (can't speak for modern Greek Macedonians, I've known some but I don't know them that intimately ;-))--Aldux 14:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Making such major changes and then announcing them as a done deal is not productive. In any case, the order you propose is as arbitrary as anything else. Larger->smaller makes more sense. sys < in 14:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

If anything "is as arbitrary as anything else", why can't anything but your "arbitrary" order stay on? Is it because you are partial to the dispute? --maf (talk-cont) 15:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

A general comment: when someone reverts or restores a particular order, they are making a point and are, thus, partial to that version. I am rather ambivalent regarding this, but prefer the prior order (RoM, then GM). Why? A few reasons: (Greek) Macedonia is no longer an official constituent within Greek governance, though its constituents are, so arguably it seems odd that a state which does have that name (at least according to some) must take a backseat to it. However, the current order also has advantages and harks of America: even though another variant may be more common (the United States), at least in English, the supranational region is listed first because of its many potential meanings or combinations (the Americas). Anyhow ... Corticopia 16:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Macedonia proper (or "Greek Macedonia" to some) is much larger than FYROM, more populous and has a much, much higher GDP. By any quantitative criterion, it is more likely to be the subject of any inquiry than the FYR. The soft and fuzzy criteria that some try to introduce are based on wishes and ambitions, not facts. sys < in 16:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

That's just it: this is for the benefit of those who consider Macedonia proper to not equate with Greek Macedonia but, perhaps, with the overarching Balkan region, FYROM, or something else. And it isn't merely about quantitative measures, but qualitative ones too. Corticopia 16:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The newspapers over here were reporting last week that a "minister of Macedonia" was driving a stolen BMW. Sysin now has me confused: was she Greek? --maf (talk-cont) 16:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No, merely a thief - of a BMW and a historic name, among many other things. sys < in 19:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Whereby with this comment you have proven that you are too biased to have a neutral stance on this matter, and therefore your opinions and your edit rvs deserve the respect which is inversely proportional to your bias. --maf (talk-cont) 20:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Sysin's editing record shows that he's plainly acting as a nationalist POV-pusher, not just here but across a range of articles where he's repeatedly been deleting the name "Republic of Macedonia". I've left a warning and request to desist on his talk page. -- ChrisO 20:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

So he deserves the same fortune as those who advocate the other view? And what's wrong with having a view? I have the same views with him. You say statehood, I say double size. You say own currency, I say 7 times more of it. You say they are people too, I say they are double. You say USA, I say UN. Who's a nationalist and why? Probably those who advocate that a nation should go first? Heh, I never thought it was a portmanteau of nation+A'+list! :-) NikoSilver 23:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Sigh* Maybe we should really flip a coin and then subject the article to full protection, so at least we would put an end to it. I seriously doubt there's a disambiguation page that has been edited, reverted, vandalized, moved and discussed more than this one in all wikipedia.--Aldux 01:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong in having a view as long as it is expressed on the proper place, which WP IS NOT. As I said above, I've come to accept that regular rv's are unavoidable, and full protection is not a solution (the resentment will provoke a new fight elsewhere). If only there could only be a rv every week or so so as not to clutter our watchlists. --maf (talk-cont) 04:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

All views are represented in WP in due weight. Sys in considers that his view is NPOV, just like the others think the same for their own. I'm just saying they all have a point. You are saying that everybody but Sys in is allowed to express it. It has also been suggested that Sys in is a nationalist for having this view. I disagree. NikoSilver 19:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

So, Aldux, you decided to flip a coin, in your room, by yourself, and then you announced the results, changed the page, and started RVing anyone who preferred the page as it was organized before. Very mature. sys < in 06:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that that's particularly fair, it seems to me that you're all doing an awful lot of reverting, and it's anything but several-versus-1.

And as for the ordering... To my mind, the heirarchy with ROM and Greek Macedonia as the major factors, and antiquity separate, is the easiest to see. It clearly shows which exist currently, and of those, makes obvious the two most important ones -- one for size (population, etc), one for international status, and it quickly shows the relationship of all the others to the three key Macedonia's, without having to read more to determine if it's related to the Greek region, or the country, or something historical, or whatever else.

Much as I think it's pretty sad if it does need to come down to a coin toss, I'd be all for telling an admin to come along and protect the page so long as it's with that heirarchy, and whether it's Greek Macedonia or ROM listed first, well, that'd be luck of the draw depending on when the admin gets here. Again, silly, but at least it would stop the edit warring. And honestly? First or second, is it really that big a deal? It's not like it's hard to look through a list of two to find the one you want (and the one you want isn't going to be affected by which is first, it's either the right link or it's not, so I don't see how nationalism should mean anything here, though apparently it does...), unlike originally when it was a list of ten or so. -Bbik 07:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Bbik; I don't think ChrisO's recent changes were productive: not only did this not promote clarity (too many categories for not what, I would think it would be open to even more edit warring out of disagreement about what should listed where. Anyhow ... It seems that the current arrangement is rather agreeable to many editors (and I have restored it) -- I believe it is more an issue of what within it should be listed first or later. I really don't care, but I am partial to retaining the current hierarchy -- really, arguments can fly incessantly in support of one or the other, but let's just agree on the order and move onto more worthwhile pursuits. Corticopia 15:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Leaving apart from the Sysin comment (who, brilliant as usual, didn't note it was just a jest I took from Niko; disambig pages are never placed under long term full-protection). I think (correct me if my memory is getting me wrong) many of you you (Corticopia, Maf, Bbik) or moderately new on this page; it's two years I'm here, and it's being vexing observing all arguments go in circles. Unfortunately, there's little we can do: the order will be changed repeatedly, as always. Anyways, I've got beter things to do, so I at least shall follow, as Corticopia rightly said, more worthwile pursuits.--Aldux 16:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Pronounciation

How comes the name is spoken with an "s" instead of a "k"? --Mustafa Mustamann 14:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

For the same reason that we pronounce 'mace' with an 's' and not a 'k'. English pronunciation isn't regular like most languages. In this instance the English pronunciation is similar to the native Macedonian pronunciation of the country's name. 213.230.130.56 (talk) 14:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I assume you mean the other way around. The English pronunciation is not similar to native Macedonian pronunciation in this case. JdeJ (talk) 14:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Revert should not exist

This page should direct automatically to the "Republic of Macedonia" page. This is the common name for the country and almost every other country has its own page without any silly redirects (except for Georgia maybe). Greek complaints about this issue should be annoyed - let's just be grateful that Denmark doesn't object to the name "New Zealand", Wales doesn't object to "New South Wales" and the people of York don't object to "New York". Wikipedia isn't supposed to be a political tool that appeases the exhausted and unfounded beliefs of the Greeks. 213.230.130.56 22:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The crucial difference being, of course, that in each instance you mention, the disambiguating term New leaves no room for confusion between the original and the copy. Why not follow their example? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I am macedonian and my luck is that I am married with greek woman.Just shortly to put one question to everybody who claim about name Macedonia.Why in the North Greece called Macedonia inside their homes people speak different language(not greek). By the way that is same with language from Republic Macedonia. Of course who knows little bit of history and politic that changing starts after Balkans war and politic of Greek gouverment in that time like every politic they make their history(Even I am Macedonian I can say same for my country Republic of Macedonia that everything is a politic and also my country is changing the History books like serbian country also like every country when they have chance). Thats the reason why people start war. Instead of that just go forward and stop to ask who is who, it`s more important what do you want to be —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.51.11.2 (talk) 12:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What you are saying is an outrageous inaccuracy. People living in Greek Macedonia speak Greek. The Slavic speaking minority is so small that it cannot even be registered in the censi. ^{Demographics of Macedonia} Huxflux (talk) 00:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations

I would like to congratulate the wikipedia community for directing the viewer immediately to the dissambiguation page when typing "Macedonia", as well as for the order of the terms appearing, by putting the better known term of the Macedonia peripheries in Greece and afterwards the new Republic of Upper Macedonia. This proves that wikipedia is not as biased as it seemed before for a matter that is on debate. Soon, the new state will realize the deadlock it has set itself into by defalcating the neighbouring nations' history. Congratulations. --Dimorsitanos (talk) 10:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

The User "Laveol" always puts the links with Bulgarian background to the top of "Miscellaneous", although there is only one link to something Bulgarian that contains the name "Macedonia". Please stop this childish behaviour. Cukiger (talk) 09:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The user Laveol is completely right in doing that edit, the heading makes it clear that the sections are in alphabetical order. Even if one would agree with the edit, it is in no way vandalism and Laveol has broken no rules. Cukiger, however, violates WP:NPA when labelling a perfectly valid edit as vandalism. JdeJ (talk) 13:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

the user laveol only put the category "Bulgarian" to the top without ordering the rest alphabetically, so it is obvious that his intent was just to put that section to the top. indeed, the articles should be alphabetically ordered. i myself made that change. however, that change only depends on the articles, not on the categories. Cukiger (talk) 09:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

That is your very own interpretation and it seems that no other user agrees with it. Bulgarians come first as B is the second letter of the alphabet. As you can see, you have been reverted by at least three users and nobody has yet supported your interpretation. Please stop edit warring over the issue JdeJ (talk) 10:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see the section Order, below.--208.102.210.163 (talk) 00:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Alexander the Great etc.

This is a disambiguation page used when a single term can be associated with more than one topic. that only lists articles rrelated to that term. More detailed explanatons such as the role of Alexander the Great in spreading Hellenistic culture does not belong here. These topics are treated in the respective full articles.  Andreas  ^(T) 22:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Sort alphabetically

Could someone please sort everything alphabetically? Currently like this it's pretty hard to locate stuff. Check the guidelines if in doubt. --87.219.84.58 (talk) 18:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Aegean Macedonia

The term "Aegean Macedonia", as applied to this region, is considered to imply irredentist ambitions by Slav Macedonians, and its use is therefore rejected by Greece

This term seems like a quote from the "naming dispute" and seems completely out of place. It seems like an argument for why Greece won't recognize ROM rather then if it has anything to do with the disambiguous Macedonia page. Because of its redundancy, it will be removed, but can be placed in its rightful article. Maktruth (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I also reworded the article which includes their official names. Maktruth (talk) 06:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Order (or not, just order as of June second)

Greek Macedonia should come first; FYROM should come second. Thessaloniki is the most famous Macedonian anything, after Alexander the Great. Argument? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.210.163 (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, the section should be labeled alphabetically. (see Vandalism and Sort alphabetically, above)

Actually, you probably shouldn't argue that here at all. I think I just recreated the section, What to list. Do argue why the order is now:

Europe (Balkans)

Macedonia (region), a region of the Balkan peninsula which includes:

Republic of Macedonia, a current state, also referred to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)

Socialist Republic of Macedonia (1946–1991), a federal unit of Yugoslavia and predecessor to the current Republic of Macedonia

Vardar Macedonia, a geographical region that mostly overlaps the Republic of Macedonia

Macedonia (Greece) or Greek Macedonia, a region of Greece, subdivided into three administrative districts:

West Macedonia

Central Macedonia

East Macedonia and Thrace (Western part only)

Blagoevgrad Province, unofficially called Pirin Macedonia, a region of Bulgaria

(For an overview of these terms, see Macedonia (terminology), explanation of the application of the name and the naming dispute between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia.)

This is erroneous:

It seems like there are three options, alphabetical, Pro-Macedonia, and Pro-FYROM. FYROM supporters may argue that the "Republic of Macedonia" is a fully independent state, and thus being more important, deserving a position topping the list. However, the problem with this reasoning is that although in technical diplomatic understanding FYROM has greater power, Macedonia is more important historically, culturally, economically and demographically. A Pro-Macedonian listing, however, satisfies the importance position. The alphabetical listing is also an acceptable compromise for obvious reasons, though may seem odd. --208.102.210.163 (talk) 01:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it can be labelled as clear as 'pro-FYROM'. The country of Macedonia is far more likely to be sought than the Greek region by visitors, and though the Wikipedia has (embarrassingly) bowed to Greek pressure in the main Macedonia article we need to keep this list (at least) functional and convenient. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 09:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

no term Agean Macedonia? (FYROM) in bold?

1. there is no evidence that the term Agean Macedonia is coined or used mainly by „some irridentists“ and i personally dont see why the terms Vardar Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia are accepted and used in the article and the historic term Agean Macedonia is „problematic“ so its changed with the new term „Greek Macedonia“. Furthermore we see the use of the term Aegean Macedonia by many official sources it is even used in the Britannica article about Macedonia [8]. There is no reason to esclude the historic term that delineates the region of the Aegean Sea Macedonia - Agean Macedonia.

2. is there any plausible reason for writing "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (FYROM)" and "Pirin Macedonia" in bold?

Alex Makedon (talk) 19:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Order of appearance

A logical order of appearance would follow the "importance" of the terms eg. first Independent States than regions etc. Its the common order of appearance used in may other similar disambiguation pages, see Luxembourg (disambiguation), Ireland (disambiguation), Karelia (disambiguation) Alex Makedon (talk) 16:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Rename artcle from Macedonia to Macedonia(disambiguation) request

It would be correct to rename the artcle from Macedonia to Macedonia(disambiguation), since defacto its a disambiguation page, see also Luxembourg (disambiguation), Ireland (disambiguation) etc. By doing so I would suggest to keep the wiki page named simply Macedonia linked and identical with Macedonia(disambiguation) page so no one vandals takes advantage of the situation. If some Admin can help renaming the page, than you.Alex Makedon (talk) 21:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Alex Makedon (talk) 21:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Some syntax ajustments

• Keeping both Macedonia(Greece) and Greek Macedonia is saying the same information twice.

Furthermore there it is clearly stated that it is "a region of Greece" so it's unnecessary to use the word Greece three times in the same sentence in the same context. If there is a reason for doing so plz state it, if not im doing the correction. thank you Alex Makedon (talk) 09:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• • Republic of Macedonia, a current state, member of the United Nations since 8 April 1993 under the provisional reference "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (FYROM)
    • Vardar Macedonia, a geographical region that mostly overlaps the Republic of Macedonia
  • Macedonia (Greece) or Greek Macedonia, also known as "Aegean Macedonia", a region of Greece subdivided into three administrative districts:
  • Blagoevgrad Province, also known unofficially as Pirin Macedonia, a region of Bulgaria

I have underlined in bold the issue, mainly the different sintax fotmula and context of the homogeneous terms Agean Pirin and Vardar Macedonia. So its best to work out a single formula for Agean Pirin and Vardar Macedonia.Alex Makedon (talk) 11:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Greek Macedonia is not "known" as Aegean Macedonia, it is referred as such by Slavomacedonian nationalists.--   Avg    17:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Before stating unverified POV and Greek lies-propaganda about "nationalists", "irridentism" take a look at Britannica. [9] "The ensuing treaty in 1913 assigned the southern half, or “Aegean Macedonia,” to Greece and most of the northern half “Vardar Macedonia” to Serbia; a much smaller portion, “Pirin Macedonia,” went to Bulgaria"

As i have stated before, read above, since both Vardar and Pirin Macedonia are stated in the article and dont seem to be "problematic" there is no plausible reason to exclude the term Aegean Macedonia or to consider it "problematic".Alex Makedon (talk) 19:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Well I would be surprised if the treaty mentions "Aegean", "Vardar" and "Pirin" Macedonia. In fact I would bet that it doesn't. Just a reminder, the fact that you were taught in your schools that Greek Macedonia is "Aegean" Macedonia, doesn't mean that everybody else was taught the same or that this is an accepted term in scientific literature.--   Avg    19:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

@Makedon, we don't go by some "single formula", we go by what is the simplest for readers. The things that you are bolding do actually suffice. @Avg, cut the crap. "Aegean Macedonia" has been used in English without irredentist or nationalist connotations. Remember, this is a dab page, not your retarded forum. BalkanFever 05:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's google it... Aegean Macedonia 25.500 results Greek Macedonia 57.400 results and Macedonia (Greece) 285.000 results. If you will check the links that google results give from "Aegean Macedonia" you will see were the majority of the sources are ;-) --xvvx (talk) 09:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

BF, I know it's difficult to grasp there's a difference, but "used in English" means by English scholars, not by your usual weirdo pals.--   Avg    11:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, this is a dab page, so let's keep the "also known as" crap to a minimum, shall we? --Tsourkpk (talk) 14:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Denes nad Makedonija but not Makedonia ksakousti?

Shouldn't this be an either both or none thing? My personal preference would be none. In fact, this may be a more general question, are we supposed to mention expressions/names that simply include Macedonia or only articles named Macedonia (obviously with the relevant qualifiers)?. I'm leaning towards the second so neither anthem has any place in this disambig article.--   Avg    23:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The basic difference is that Denes nad Makedonija is official national anthem of the Republic of Macedonia while Makedonia ksakousti is "often regarded as the unofficial anthem" of a region, or in other words Makedonia ksakousti is just a song. This said i dont mind the presence of this song in the Macedonia (disambiguation) page if a consensus if found that the information is not obsolete or irrelevant. Alex Makedon (talk) 10:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

You've brought up some very good questions. Are you familiar with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)? --Tesscass (talk) 18:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out and in fact per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Partial_title_matches: Do not add links that merely contain part of the page title, or links that include the page title in a longer proper name, where there is no significant risk of confusion. Only add links to articles that could use essentially the same title as the disambiguated term. Disambiguation pages are not search indices.--   Avg    22:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)